For me, it does not matter. I have no idea why anyone would care.
Now I understand the tradition part, but we are a bit past that. Each person is who they are, no matter their name. The only place it becomes even a concern or confusion is for the offspring.

my husband changed his name

Every time I see your name, “Honey Dipper Dan” pops into my head.

I have never heard of fellows caring. I must be living under a rock.

@SpatzieLover Neat! We talked about doing something like that, or both hyphenating. But really, that brings up another of my issues, which is sheer laziness. Neither of us particularly wants to learn to sign a new signature! :P

@Jude Can I get an explanation of “Honey Dipper Dan”? It has made me laugh.

Lol what does zombies have to do with this?

I couldn’t care less even if I tried

Oh, it was a Madtv skit. Sadly, it wasn’t funny.

@coffeenut Partly I put zombies in to see if people noticed, and partly it’s because I think people who care about this sort of thing are basically zombies.

Tradition is important.

@incendiary_dan One of my friends & her husband took each others last names w/out a hyphen…but they have short last names. A word from the wise: Be prepared for each family to not like whatever you both choose. We still have people sending us mail to the other last name as Mr & Mrs (his old last name). UGH!

I kept my maiden name, as I was 37 when we married and pretty attached to it. It would be a hassle to change. I know it bugs my husband, although he can’t really articulate why. I know to some people it matters because of the kids, but we don’t have any. I think it’s kind of a pride thing- “my last name isn’t good enough for you?” and definitely tradition plays into it as well.

@cletrans2col for some people it’s more like “ownership” not tradition.

@SpatzieLover If the least a guy asks is for you to take his last name, you’re ok.

It’s only “ownership” if you are hostile to the idea of marriage.

This has been a point of sensitivity for me.
I have been married twice. I changed my name both times. The first time was way back when, when it was almost always done. And it really does seem to make it easier when you have children. I liked the new name OK and I was very young and not really bothered by it.
The second time was because it surely didn’t seem right to keep the name of my first husband when I was marrying someone else, and again with the children thing, except now I didn’t have the same name as my older children.

I don’t really like my last name. (My husbands last name) It is difficult to pronounce and spell and my own maiden name was ordinary and easy.
I sometimes feel a bit of resentment at not having my name. The name that was given to me at my birth. When I have even dared to bring up the subject of women not changing their names, with my husband or his family, (not expressing that I resent having changed mine) I am met with disgust and as @crisw said ”’“my last name isn’t good enough for you?”

I have often thought that if he dies before I do, that I might then go back to my own name.

@cletrans2col No, it’s ownership if someone treats another like a possession. I’m not saying taking your husband’s name is necessarily doing this, but I actually know people who insist on their wives taking their name in a way that treats them like property. That’s not hostility towards marriage on my part, that’s hostility towards chattel slavery. Marriage has existed for millenia without being codified woman ownership, and I have no hostility to the idea of social contracts.

My ex took my name, it was her choice. I wish she’d give it back.

I have a girlfriend who got married, and instead of one of them changing their names, she and her husband took both of their last names and made a new last name by combining them.

For me it connects us as a unit together and it makes me feel we have a stonger commitment to each other. Though I wouldn’t care if I took her maiden name or she took mine. My wife choose to take mine and she likes being called that. It does make me feel good that she choose to take my name.

Simple tradition last I looked. I couldn’t really give a shit either way. Seems akin to cavemen bashing the love of their life on the noggin & then claiming them as a member of the clan…..ugh!!

I think @crisw hit it on the nose. Because it is such a common practice, when a woman doesn’t want to take her husband’s name, he is offended because he has the idea that his name just isn’t good enough. My personal feelings on the subject are that I will keep my name and my children will have name. Ideally, my kids will have a hyphenate of my name and their father’s name but I will make it very clear that my children will have my name. And if I have to pull out the old “I don’t want my name to die out” argument, I will.

Whether for business or whatever other reason, my beloved wife can have any name she wishes.

Oh wait—I don’t have a wife!

@KatawaGrey That view, no thanks.

I get that there are as many reasons to make different decisions as there are women who are making them, if not more. I’m not questioning anyone’s decision, but merely wondering why the men in these relationships sometimes feel so adamant about their partner taking their name.

@incendiary_dan I’m wondering that too.

My ex wife still uses my name which seems a bit odd to me.

For me as a man it was an honor when she took my name and it made me feel great that she would. Had she not I would probably have felt a bit hurt. I guess that is what you are looking for.

It’s more tradition than possessiveness. However, it also gives cohesion to the family unit. Rather than introducing your self as Mr. Smith and Mrs. Jones or Mrs. Jones-Smith the couple can simply introduce themselves as Mr. and Mrs Smith, or just as the Smiths. Further, unless there are real professional considerations such as being a doctor with an established practice or a performer with significant name recognition, an unwillingness to share a name seems to me as a somewhat subtle lack of commitment for the long haul.

@wilma I found your story fascinating, by the way. :)

@Summum Can you elaborate on why you think it might have hurt you? If you can’t, that’s cool, just wondering.

@YoBob That reminds me, my partner said she’d consider taking my last name if my brother succeeds in becoming a rock star, since their first names are basically the same, and she would piggyback on his star power to get her novels sold.

@YoBob: But what if your wife was the doctor or famous performer? Would you take her name?

@cletrans2col: I’m a bit confused, which view are saying “no thanks” to?

@incendiary_dan: Hahaha, she sounds like a smart lady.

@incendiary_dan Yes I can. Because of tradition and what has always been I would feel that she wasn’t as committed to me without taking my name. For me it gave me great respect and honor to have her take my name and it helped me to commit to her with all I am.

I honestly think that for some men, it’s an ingrained thing to want to pass on their name to their children and carry on the family line, and maybe they’re worried that if the wife keeps her own name, she won’t want the children to use his name either.

@KatawaGrey That was the reason I gave to my husband. He has two brothers…both of whom have boys carrying on their family name.

I gave my wife the option to change her name or not as she saw fit. She changed her name. When I asked her why, she said, “Because I respect and love you, and will be honored to have your name become mine.”

Do you see why I love this woman so much? : D

GA @CaptainHarley

Thank you, @Summum ! : ))

@CaptainHarley Where did you find that gem?

Traditionally, men would carry the family name and women would marry in. Adopting the name (probably a British tradition, as we know it, since Italian wives keep their surnames) would indicate that she was part of that family. Think of it as the equivalent of citizenship vs. holding a green card. I suspect that matriarchal families would invert this.
In this age of dispersed nuclear families, it has lost some of its meaning.

Ultimately, marriage isn’t about individuality. The man and woman are supposed to effectively be a single entity. Sharing a surname, I expect, reinforces that.

@flutherother

Online. We became best friends while writing and talking on a now-defunct site called “TagWorld.” : ))

@CaptainHarley Glad it worked out so well. I met my ex on the Internet but it didn’t last unfortunately.

@KatawaGrey, you misunderstand. I was not referring to the husband’s professional needs. There are some cases where the wife has a professional need to keep her last name, and in those cases there are reasons other than social identity to consider.

The question of whether I would take my wife’s last name if she had such a situation is a completely separate one for which I don’t have an answer. On the one hand, I am a hopeless traditionalist, and it is traditional for the wife to take the husband’s name. On the other hand, being a hopeless traditionalist I find the whole hyphenated name thing to be a bit absurd and prefer the family unit to share the same identity. But never having to have faced that decision, I can honestly say “I don’t know”.

@KatawaGrey Regarding your intention to keep you name and expect your children to us a hyphenated one, firstly, please understand I respect your opinion. But, just to play devils advocate, I don’t think this is socially sustainable over the long haul.

Just think of the names of your great great great grand children on your daughters side:

John Doe and Jane Smith-Jones-Riley-Bartholomew-Radcliffe-Washington-Birmingham-Grey cordially invite you to….

@YoBob: My apologies, I did misunderstand you. I have actually thought about what my children and their children and the like would do and my thoughts are that they will be grown-ups by the time they have to make any decision about what to do with their names. If they want to keep both and make things more cumbersome for their children, that’s up to them. If they want to keep one and have it legally changed, it’s up to them. If they want to take someone else’s name, that’s up to them. However, until such time as they are legal adults, their names are up to me and their other legal guardian(s).

It did matter to my husband. In fact, he was quite clear about it, upfront. For him, it was tradition. We’ve both been married before, I’ve done the hyphenated thing, it’s just not for me.

When I married him, I took his name with great pride.

In our families then it’s just been a tradition thing, an honor thing the bride’s family shows the groom’s family. The idea’s been that the young girl is the family’s most precious treasure (even though boys were better liked, go figure) and so if she wants to accept a husband and takes the family name then the husband’s family has been shown an “honor”.

I was very happy to take my 1st husband’s last name and I’m just as happy to soon take my future husband’s family name because he feels thrilled by the idea and that’s good enough for me. I decided some 20 years ago that I’d show/give my loved ones the very best I had to offer them as far social/traditional advantages and this is one of those things along with legal marriage that falls under that.

@flutherother

Well, when Vicky and I meet in real life it was as though I was finally home. Just like we had known each other all our lives, but I had been away or something. : ))

BTW… my first marriage ended in divorce after 36 years and 5 grown children.

I’m not sure, but perhaps for some dudes it’s a way of posthumously living on through their family name.

It could be that a lot of the above believe in an after life and when they meet up with their family there, they’ll be able to find them that much faster and easier if they don’t have to remember a surname besides their own. ;-)

When we married I told my wife that if she wanted to keep her maiden name, that was AOK with me.

IIRC, she now uses a hyphenated name for her employee ID, her maiden for her Driver’s License ID, and my surname somewhere else. Drat, I used to know where she did that!

@Brian1946: Where I work, we have to check ID if someone pays with a credit or debit card. I can’t tell you how much I resent the women who have two different names on their cards. If your wife kept her license and her credit cards the same name, then I love her so much.

On a side note, even in our “evolved” society, it is often assumed that a woman will take her husband’s name which can really throw off some things legally for women who want to keep their names.

I wanted to and did change my name when I married. It’s part of being a married couple as far as I’m concerned. If I were a man I would want my wive to have my name. It’s part of becoming one—remember that?

My daughter did not change her name when she married. She now has two children and wishes she had. She is considering it now after nine years of marriage.

@KatawaGrey

“If your wife kept her license and her credit cards the same name, then I love her so much.”

I just talked to her: she has her maiden name on her license and “her maiden-my surname” on her credit card.
Hopefully you can give her some moderate lurve for not being a major flake. ;-)

@perspicacious: Why isn’t it an option for her husband to take her name or for the children to have her name?

@Brian1946: She gets a little lurve. But only a little. ;)

I kinda feel like tradition is important. But I don’t want to change my last name (we don’t have any little boys in our family so the name kinda dies with me and my sister). If I do change it, my son is going to have my last name as his middle for sure. I think it’s a cool name.

I asked my ex to take my name when we married way back then. I knew it meant a lot to my grandfather, as it appeared that I was the only one of the family who might have children to pass on his name. She took it. It wasn’t a huge deal for either of us.

But I wouldn’t ask my next wife to do it. I recognize that it attenuated my ex’s attachment to her past which a regret. If she really wanted to take my name, that would be fine – but not for me.

In the scope of things, what’s in a name?

@KatawaGrey – “My personal feelings on the subject are that I will keep my name and my children will have name. Ideally, my kids will have a hyphenate of my name and their father’s name but I will make it very clear that my children will have my name”

@KatawaGrey Most people presume that I have my husband’s surname when they meet me. Usually we both say “It’s the 21st century” when someone questions us further.

@SamIAm Don’t let the name die with you. My sis is much older and has no kids. She was thrilled to find out her nephew would carry on our family name.

I took my ex-husband’s name because I thought it sounded good and we were in the same profession, accounting, with a practice together I truly thought we would be a team forever, but I don’t think he would have worried either way. When I moved in with my now husband, several years later, I was still using the name… passports.. drivers license etc… I just never thought it important enough to change back to my maiden name. I had incorporated my maiden name in as a middle name, so I never totally dropped my maiden name.
It became VERY important to my current husband that I change my name when I moved here. To him, having that other name was like some other man’s brand on me. He put through a ‘change of name’ form as part of my residency application here, without me knowing so I was registered at the police station and my tax and residency was all processed under my maiden name, which I hadn’t taken back officially on my passport yet. This little trick got me in a bit of trouble when I went to renew my US passport. When I saw the paperwork go through, I should have changed my passport right away, so it was pretty stupid on my part too.
I will never change my name again. Too much hassle with different passports, residency permits and diplomas.

I going with tradition as the number one reason.

It was never important to me, so I didn’t mind when my wife decided to keep hers.

I actually find it odd to change it. Why would you live 25 to 40% of your life with one name, only to change it to something else? Confusing and time-consuming (with all the paperwork).

Some of my older relatives however, didn’t take too kindly to my wife keeping her name. They saw it as an insult to our family. For years they insisted on addressing her (verbally and in writing) by my last name. We corrected them many times, but they persisted.

I would take his name, but hyphenate it. Simply because my name and last name have a nice ring to it – and I am use to it! It is part of who I am, and I don’t intend to completely drop it. Plus, I have an intention to start a career. Once I am known by my current name, if I happened to be married, it would be a huge hassle to change it completely.

@KatawaGrey That is an option, but not what she wants. She wishes she had changed her name when she married.

I never get the whole ‘it’ll be easier for the kids thing’. None of my kids have a ‘family name’. I never took any husband’s name (duh, shocking I know). I gave each of my kids their birth father’s last name (har har, ‘cause you know, I can’t remember who fathered whom). My third kid will get mine.

@Simone_De_Beauvoir: I agree. If your family is so unstable that everyone not having the same name can break it apart, then you really need to rethink your parenting strategies. When my deliberately single mom was pregnant, people would ask her what my last name was going to be. How the hell do you respond to something like that? Of course I would have my mother’s name. She was the only parent so her name was the only option. If people worry so much about the cohesion of a family unit being about having the same name, should single mothers always give their children their last names? My guess is if you questioned the fathers who aren’t custodial parents they would be very annoyed at the thought and the “cohesion of a family unit” argument would go right out the window.

I don’t think a man ever stayed and looked after his kids just because they had his name and not her’s.

@KatawaGrey That’s ridiculous about those questions. Of course you’d have her name. Or no, they’d rather her ask a male stranger on the street for his name just so that you grow up all ‘normal’. @cazzie You fucking win for that comment, agreed.

@Simone_De_Beauvoir When people would ask me what her name would be I often gave answers like “Rainbow Unicorn! What else?”. They didn’t seem to be amused. Go figure.

@JilltheTooth Ha, I’d do that too.

I might tell them that the kid’s name is Noyb. ;-)

Thanks, @Simone_De_Beauvoir . My son has my surname as well as his father’s. I currently have the name I was born with. Who else should I be? A woman changing her name is a vestige from the days when a woman became a man’s property. I think it’s a ridiculous practice.

FWIW, my wife chose to take my name because she became my partner, not my property. (your mileage may vary)

@YoBob Did you take her name too? because you became HER partner?

@cazzie We both appreciate tradition. It will also make it quite a bit easier for some future family historian as our names follow the cultural convention that have been practiced in this part of the world for more than a few generations. Besides, I often quip that she took my name because it’s easier to pronounce (she had one of those “can I please buy a vowel” Czechoslovakian names prior to marriage).

@YoBob,... Tradition that is based on woman as property…. My point is that it would make it easier for the family historian to find her if she keeps her name. And if her name was so wonderfully unique, it would make it stand out, as would you, then, as her spouse, if you took it as part of your own.

I’m not saying she NOT take the husbands name as part of her name, but she shouldn’t drop her own surname.

It is quite common for the woman’s sir name to become her middle name. As one who has done a bit of genealogy work, I can tell you that it is a heck of a lot easier to sort out who was married to whom, especially when the best data comes from tomb stones rather than records long lost to time. Things start to get quite a bit more difficult as divorce and multiple parentage became more common place.

Of course, your decisions in this matter are totally up to you. However, might I point out that a woman choosing to take her husband’s sir name does not equate to an agreement to become his personal property just as the choice to stay home and take care of the kids during the child bearing years does not equate to downtrodden women denied a career due to her gender.

It is about personal choice. May you find a partner that works for you over the long haul as well as mine has for the past 20 years.

@YoBob How does the surname affect genealogy? Many of my relatives (going way back) have kept their names. I’ve read the family tree, and see no stumbling blocks.

Well, when you have one tombstone with a single sir name and a husband and wife planted there it’s pretty darned obvious who was married to whom.

Oh, if you are relying on tombstones, then I can see where the issue would be. We are Catholic. Our family paperwork was well kept for us. There have been no issues going back several hundred years.

I was also one of the women who desperately wanted to take my husband’s last name because I loathed my last name. It was German, no one could ever pronounce it correctly, and every time I introduced myself, it sounded like I was spitting.

@WillWorkForChocolate: Your current last name is much easier to pronounce. ;)

Whenever someone tells me that I should take my boyfriend’s super cool last name if we get married, I just point out that I share my last name with a famous doctor who helped discover a procedure that has saved a great many lives. I’m not going to say who or what because I don’t actually want anyone to know what my last name is.

I resemble that @WillWorkForChocolate..and my husband still took my name ;)

Here’s a point of view as a child with a different name than the parents. My mother divorced my birth father who’s last name I had been given. She remarried without changing my last name to her’s and her new husband’s. I grew up constantly being asked if I was adopted, how come my name was different, how come my parents were divorced, what was my new dad like, blah-blah. ALL of these prying questions would have been avoided if I’d just had the same name as my parents. I can imagine if my mother and father had different last names then the kid questions would have been about that, again an annoyance and unnecessary. I always wanted to have the same name as my parents.

Personally, I wanted my wife to adopt my name, as a matter of loyalty, figuratively speaking, and a commitment to our marriage and to me. I think a lot of other heterosexual men feel the same way I do, but because society is so “politically correct” these days, they are afraid to voice it.

@incendiary_dan There is nothing wrong with tradition, and having the conviction to follow it.

@MRSHINYSHOES I’m a very traditional person as well. Aside from hating my maiden name, I like the tradition of taking your husband’s name, to show that you are now a part of him. I also went for the traditional wedding vows, even including the word “obey”. I like the traditions. =0)

@WillWorkForChocolate Kudos to you. :)

@WillWorkForChocolate : Are you obedient? <chokes on coffee while laughing>

@Neizvestnaya what you describe is what I was worried about with my children. It was worth it to me to change my name for their sake.

Everyone here is acting like it has to be ‘either-or’... that’s silly. My son has MY last name AND my husband’s (his father’s) It just so happens that my last name is a common first name for a boy in France, so people just think we are multicultural…. which we are.

@Neizvestnaya I get your point. It’s something my sister and her second husband faced. He wasn’t my niece’s biological father, but the other father was out of the picture and he raised her as his own, including giving her his name. Of course… as soon as she started having problems with him, she was more than happy to point out to everyone who would listen that he wasn’t her ‘real’ dad. ufff…. so, my niece was, in fact, adopted, by her step father, so they had the same name but she just came to dislike the idea and probably would have liked to have had he biological father’s name.

@Neizvestnaya: I’m sorry you had such a hard time with that growing up, but I don’t think that should have any bearing on whether or not a woman takes her husband’s name or what name a child has. I have grown up with all sorts of questions and sideways looks from people about my lack of my father, but never have I thought I needed a father in order to stay these looks and questions. I’d be willing to bet that if your mother had changed your name to that of your stepfather’s, you would have had a whole slew of other problems because of your new name.

@JilltheTooth Me? Obedient? Don’t make me laugh! Bwuahahaha! No, but really… I am to a certain extent, but so is he, LOL. We “obey” each other in different ways.

I’d actually be annoyed if my wife did change her name, especially if I had to start getting to know her as something like Vicky Sheen or Victoria Trump.

Nobody’s actually given me a breakdown of why they give a damn. C’mon men, give better explanations.

@incendiary_dan: I think that’s because there is no longer any reason to do so aside from the flimsy explanations given.

@KatawaGrey Well, sure, but I was gonna go and let someone else back themselves into a corner logically and then call them out :P.

@incendiary_dan I’ve given you a sound explanation why a lot of men “like” it when their women adopt their surnames when they get married. duh.

@MRSHINYSHOES No, you and every other man on here who cared gave some superficial response about how it “shows respect” or some shit like that, without adequate reasoning behind that. How does taking someone’s last name signify loyalty or respect to you? Is the symbolism of that more important to you than the actual loyalty and respect in behavior? These are the things I’m wondering.

P.S. In regards to your earlier post which I meant to respond to, there is absolutely something wrong with following tradition if that tradition serves no good purpose. Some traditions are great and we should probably follow them. I’m a big advocate of some traditional societies and of developing holistic traditions within our culture(s). But if it serves no good purpose or denies freedom to anyone, it’s bullshit.

@incendiary_dan It is not symbolism. It is tradition. And yes, this tradition serves a very good purpose. It shows man and woman as one, not as two individuals. That is how faith and loyalty are nurtured, through tradition and respecting tradition. Following this tradition does not deny anyone freedom. That is such ridiculous and naive thinking. You can be a very free person and yet be very bonded to tradition, the union between man and wife. Get off the silly human rights thing and stop making me gag with your bleeding lefty, lofty ideals my friend.

There are countries where this practice doesn’t apply at all. Ever seen a phone book listed by first names? I have.

@MRSHINYSHOES Until you actually explain something instead of just repeating assertions, you haven’t answered my question. Tell me how you think following this tradition nurtures faith and loyalty, instead of just repeating it.

@MRSHINYSHOES P.S. I believe I have yet to actually refer to the tradition of the wife changing her surname as oppressive. Do not confuse examples with the main argument. I note from all our previous debates that you seem to lack formal logical skills (most do in our culture, as it’s not taught in schools), so I can recommend a few great books on logical discourse.

@cazzie: In most Hispanic countries, everyone has hyphenated last names. No one changes their names when they get married. When children are born, they get the first two names of their parents as their last name. So, the child of Maria Sanchez-Menendez and Jose Iglesia-Lopez has the last name Iglesia-Sanchez. I think that system makes much more sense. This way, everyone keeps their names and children are identified with both their mother’s family and their father’s family.

@MRSHINYSHOES: Why is it so important to you for everyone else to know that your wife is your wife? Why isn’t it enough that you know she’s your wife? Furthermore, if this obvious cohesion is so important, why not take her name? Not only does that show that you are one unit to everyone else, but it also shows that you are so madly in love with her and that you are so committed to her that you want to fuse to her fully, as opposed to her losing her whole identity and be separated completely from her family. Why not both have a hyphenated name? That way, you both separate form your families completely and start your own family completely separately. What could be a better show of unity than starting your own clan?

I met someone recently with the last name Dragon. Yes, Dragon, and it wasn’t some new change. @hobbitsubculture said we should change both of our names to that when we get married, because it’s so fucking awesome.

A new point: marriage already is a social contract in which the conditions of a relationship are codified and agreed to. It doesn’t require name changes. Since the ceremony itself supposedly signifies and makes official that loyalty (however you define that), why are name changes necessary to do so?

@incendiary_dan

I guess you weren’t around in the ‘70s when The Captain and Tennille were big? His real name was Daryl Dragon. Maybe they were relatives.

@KatawaGrey Because that’s what marriage is all about. The union between man and wife, and the representation of that is reflected in the knowledge that she is mine. Marriage is a very special thing, and I’m sure others would think the same. It’s a sacrifice, and one well-deserved. Without making the sacrifice, you’d be selfish and remain individuals. In North America, especially, there is too much importance placed on “individuality” and “my personal rights”, to the extent where people have become selfish, abandoning what’s good and right (tradition). This has led to a substantial increase in divorce and bad parenting in the last 40–45 years——you got all the lefty liberals to thank for that! lol

Anyhow, this comment thread has gone on too long. I made my point, and my point is nothing but common sense. Anyone who can’t see how these traditions form the foundation of society and promote its stability and goodness has to be blind.

I will not re-visit this thread. To do so will merely re-hash what I already said. So long and have a good day folks. ;)

@MRSHINYSHOES

“The union between man and wife, and the representation of that is reflected in the knowledge that she is mine”

Ack. If my husband said anything like that, we’d be in divorce court pronto! I am not his possession, he is not mine.

And ahh, yes- good ol’ “tradition” where women stay home, cook, clean, pump out babies and keep their mouths shut… and just stay in miserable marriages no matter what.

And note that’s the second thread today you “are not revisiting” because people disagree with you. That says quite a lot about the strength of both your arguments and your convictions.

with all this emphasis on “tradition,” I dare say I can guess what @MRSHINYSHOES‘s take on gay marriage is :>(...

Huh, took less time than I thought to get one of them to just admit it.

@crisw for being such an open-minded person, I’m surprised you’re making assumptions where @MRSHINYSHOES is concerned. Kind of a low blow, don’t you thinK? He’s being respectful to you. Why be so rude because he has a different opinion than you? There is nothing wrong with a person wanting to hold on to traditions. He’s not hurting anyone or telling anyone here that they are wrong for wanting two names or no name or whatever fuck name you want. He just gave his opinion. I agree with his comments. I like tradition and staying home with my kids for now. I believe my staying home has been a good reason why our children are doing very well in school and they feel supported and loved. I’m here for them if they need me. I don’t keep my mouth shut because of this. My husband and I respect one another. I hold the same beliefs as @MRSHINYSHOES and have no problem with gay marriage. My sister just married her girlfriend in Iowa last spring. My aunt is gay and my brother-in-law is gay. I support them 100%. Two of my best friends are gay. Why the assumption with @MRSHINYSHOES? (I don’t know his beliefs concerning this. I can’t speak for him. But I hate the assumption just because he’s a traditionalist). Can’t you have respect for his opinion?

/end rant

I strongly agree with @jonsblond. I’m sick and fucking tired of seeing different opinions getting stomped to death here. I’ts great that we’re all so diverse; it’s great that we have different opinions. Some of us are feminists, some of us are not. Some of us eat animals, some of us eat plants. Some of us are gay, some of us are not. Some of us are into tradition, some of us are not. Why can’t we just take a person as they are, without putting words in their mouths, without making stupid assumptions based on their opinions or beliefs, and without making fellow jellies feel like shit? Hmmm? Play nicely or I’m taking all my fucking toys and going home.

FWIW: I recall from previous threads that @MRSHINYSHOES supports gay marriage. So I wouldn’t assume anything @crisw.

And despite the fact that I actually agree with most of your points @incendiary_dan, you’re so unbelievably pretentious it’s embarrassing.

@jonsblond and @WillWorkForChocolate Um, could it have anything to do with his repeated mysogyny in other threads? Could it be that he actually referred to his wife as his property, and so much as said women shouldn’t have indivdidualism? I don’t even want to tell you the private messages. Back off for a minute and see that @crisw didn’t attack him because he behaves traditionally. More importantly, realize nobody is attacking you for your choices.

@cprevite Can you tell me how I’m pretentious? As far as I can see, all I’ve posted is questions asking why men care about the subject, asked them to explain it more thoroughly because I was unsatisfied with the depth of the answers, added some observations on the historical meaning of marriage, and offered @MRSHINYSHOES some book recommendations in a field I’d observed he seemed to lack (okay, that one was a bit snide, but also a legitimate offer; formal logic is something that eludes a lot of people). All entirely appropriate for the conversation.

Now, let’s not let this veer off to rants and criticisms.

@incendiary_dan Some people don’t have a huge problem with using the word “property”. When my husband and I signed a marriage contract, we became each other’s property. He belongs to me and I belong to him. Through thick and thin. That’s why I call him MY husband and not just “A husband”. That’s why I’m HIS wife, and not just “A wife”. We ARE each other’s property.

”No, you and every other man on here who cared gave some superficial response about how it “shows respect” or some shit like that, without adequate reasoning behind that.”

Not true. @Nullo, @YoBob and @Summum all gave substantive reasons. Also: ”some shit like that” is dismissive and rude to the people who took the time to answer your question.

”@KatawaGrey Well, sure, but I was gonna go and let someone else back themselves into a corner logically and then call them out :P.”

A tad arrogant and presumptuous, no?

”Huh, took less time than I thought to get one of them to just admit it.”

Snide, much like the aforementioned comment about book recommendations.

C’mon dude, you’re better than that.

@cprevite Umm, no. I don’t know what you think substantive answers are, but no. I just decided to reread the whole thread, and aside from missing where @MRSHINYSHOES called me a lefty (ha!) I hadn’t missed anything. No substance.

Sorry, you’re inferring tone and meaning. Not saying I can’t be pretentious, in fact I excel at it (though I’m a bit rusty, I was much better at it in college). But I don’t think my statements here don’t fall into that category.

Edit: But I’ll make sure to take your concerns to heart and pay attention. I’m here for logical, productive discourse, after all. Also, I’m amused that right after your most recent comment someone gave me lurve for the third comment you quoted. :P

Perhaps my remarks to @MRSHINYSHOES regarding gay marriage were a bit out of line. If he indeed supports gay marriage, I apologize. But his remarks touched a nerve.

I don’t see anything in his comments that suggests equality. He did not say “she is mine and I am hers.” He said “she is mine.” He said that an emphasis on individuality and personal rights has led to selfishness and bad parenting. Whose individuality, and whose selfishness is he questioning? The implication here is that women who demand their rights and their personal happiness in a relationship are selfish, bad parents, and responsible for the divorce epidemic. I find that highly insulting.

I have been reading the works of Ayaan Hirsi Ali lately; her explanations of how Muslim “traditions” have led to the subjugation of women- they are worth less than men, they are the property of men, they are to be mutilated to preserve their virginity for men, they are never to question men. This is all defended with the label of “tradition.” Now I don’t think that @MRSHINYSHOES is advocating the burqa or female genital mutilation, but it’s all a continuum of male “traditions.”

Marriage, to me, is about equality. Two equals, bonded with love and respect, become a greater whole. When there is an imbalance in the equality, then the relationship festers or collapses, and at least one of the members of the partnership will fail to achieve his or her fullest potential. Throughout all too much of history, the balance in the relationship was overdominated by the male. This may be tradition- but that does not make it right, or optimal.

@incendiary_dan I’m amused that right after your most recent comment someone gave me lurve for the third comment you quoted.:P

I get really amused about the importance placed on great answers here. I give trolls and the minority in debates great answers all the time just to see others get all worked up about it. It is really amusing how people get all bent out of shape over a little button on a little website. :P

@crisw Some couples believe in tradition without either one of them being “dominated”. It’s possible, I know, because my husband and I have a marriage like that. We ARE equals, but we also belong to each other. “I am my beloved’s and my beloved is mine.”

We can belong to each other and feel that we are each other’s “property” without one of us feeling dominated or suppressed. We take turns wearing the pants in the relationship. And I must say, he’s very cute when it’s his turn to wear the skirt. I prefer him in purple, it brings out his eyes.

@crisw I’d like to add to what @WillWorkForChocolate has said (and I agree with her comments). I think what really struck a nerve with me was your comment about the woman staying home with the kids. You make it sound like such a terrible thing. I think many problems with children these days is that they don’t have a parent home with them when they need them the most. Notice I said “parent”. It doesn’t have to be the mother, it could also be the father. So much emphasis has been placed on a woman needing a career to have an identity, and I think many children suffer because of this. You can still have an identity and be your own person when you are home with your children. You can have hobbies and volunteer and still be happy believe it or not. Staying at home is not a death sentence. Doesn’t make me any less of a person, and my children benefit! I think it is terrible this tradition is being lost. (and I know some parents need two incomes, but this is not always the case. some can do without the expensive homes, vacations and two or three cars that they think they need to be happy)

@jonsblond

Hopefully I can clear this up a bit. I don’t disagree with you. I don’t mean to denigrate stay-at-home mothers at all (I have some good friends who have done so.) What I do have a problem with is if a man were to insist that the wife have kids and then stay home, because of tradition, even if she didn’t want to. If you choose to do it of your own volition, because you want to, and your partner supports you in that decision, it’s wonderful and I have no issues with it at all.

Anyone here read The Radical Homemaker? It sounded good. I was just reminded of it a bit. :)

@crisw Thank you for clearing that up. I hope you can see why I got upset. I would hope there aren’t many men like that left in this world. At least not in the U.S.. The very few stay-at-home moms that I know do so because they want to, not because their husband demanded they do. In fact, I’ve never known a woman that had a husband that felt that way. That is why I get upset when I see comments such as yours. My husband has received many comments from male co-workers concerning my staying home, and they weren’t nice. No one can understand why I would want to stay home with the children. It’s very frustrating when it seems this lifestyle is not supported. :/

@incendiary_dan I’ve never heard of this book. I’m glad you mentioned it. It does look like the book for me. =)

@KatawaGrey: I did legally get my stepfather’s name after some years and it was a great relief, though later than I had wanted. If I hadn’t had a father then that would have been easier to explain than having one and all the detail. It’s been discussed with my parents over the years and we all agree it would have been simpler and more comfortable to all share the same last name, at least for our family which was together in the 70’s – early 80’s.