First thought is that MSG isn’t simply glutamic acid.

I think Glutamic acid is just a shorter name for monosodium glutamate. Like, “Salt” is a short name for “Sodium Chloride.”

You answered your own question: “There are health concerns about the use of monosodium glutamate in food, but few are scientifically supported.[6][7][8] (See: Health effects research into glutamic acid.)”

My feeling—not scientifically supported or anything, just a gut feeling—is that MSG, like many things, is probably fine in moderation. Some people, however, have bad reactions to it. I’d think for those of us who have no bad reaction, what’s the big deal? It does make stuff tasty.

@Dutchess_III I’m pretty sure there are other forms of glutamic acid, ones that don’t cause the same reactions MSG sometimes does.

Anytime you isolate a substance that was originally found in a plant that was meant to be taken in with all the other substances, enzymes, etc. present in the plant, you are going to have problems. Especially when you start synthesizing it.

@ladymia69 Like…sodium chloride?

@Rarebear Good to see you. So, do you agree with the articles?

@incendiary_dan MSG is monosodium glutamate (MSG). Like NACL is sodium chloride and H2O is water. It is what it is. I don’t think it comes in “other forms,” but I could be wrong. I also think that it’s the fact that we call it by the chemical name scares people more than anything. Well, that could apply to anything. Water, salt, baking soda….they all have scary-sounding chemical names.

A friend of mine has terrible migraine headaches which are almost always triggered by MSG in restaurant food. They are so bad he has to give himself injections, and he is always off work the next day.

I think, as @MissAnthrope said, it’s fine in moderation unless you’re allergic.

I said glutamic acid is different from MSG, not that monosodium glutamate is different. Please read what other people write.

Well, but there are people who are very allergic to just about any food product you can name. MSG’s are bad for him and others, but not necessarily bad in general. Just like, there are people who are horribly allergic to peanuts, but peanuts in general aren’t bad.

What @MissAnthrope and @Rarebear are saying.

@incendiary_dan. What is the difference between Glutamic acid and monosodium glutamate?

Also, I was right. MSG is a form of glutamic acid. I remembered researching this a while back, because I actually cook with a lot of things that are naturally high in glutamic acids, and wanted to understand the difference.

P.S. The source I use to get the flavor is Filipino fish sauce, which I find to be the best. Almost all my dinner tonight has lots of it. :)

@Dutchess_III The “glutamate” is an amino acid anion that has to have a cation associated with it. If the cation is hydrogen, it’s gluatamic acid, and it’s in acid form. If it’s in a salt form, it’ll be paired with a single cation such as sodium (sodium gluamate) or potassium (potassium glutamate).

Chloride does the same thing. In its acid form it’s called HCL or hydrochloric acid. In its salt form, it’s called sodium chloride or potassium chloride.

Another example of an anion would be acetate. The salt is sodium acitate, the acid is vinegar.
Or bicarbonate. The acid is carbonic acid. The salt is baking soda.

And so on.

I wouldn’t mess around with it. I don’t eat stuff with MSG. Why bother????

@ladymia69 Because it’s yummy!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umami

@Rarebear That’s why I use fish sauce instead. Don’t need to worry so much about it being a weird chemical mess.

Of course, the other meal I brought for my double shift tonight is ramen noodles, so…

No, I do not think it’s possible that MSG is not bad for you. I’ve done alot of research into this in the last 6 months. My partner and I are now in the process of removing the MSG products in our home. We also quit buying many items that we used to eat regularily.

why eat a food additive like MSG if you can avoid it? why not try to eat the purest forms of food, fresh veggies, fruit, meat, bread made from wholesome ingredients and few or no additives and preservatives, whole grain pasta, water instead of soda, etc. ideally, our diets should probably not have additives and preservatives.

@PluckyDog Can you share some of the research you have seen?

@Rarebear ..I’ll have to get back to you on that one. Most of it was in texts. I’ll find some of the stuff I had online though. There’s alot so I’m not sure um how much I should link? I’ll see what I can scrounge up.

@Rarebear I can’t believe a Dr. wouldn’t understand why some people wouldn’t want to ingest excitotoxins, or feed them to their children.

Have you figured out what triggers symptoms of autism yet?

@PluckyDog I’m just interested in seeing a well designed study showing that MSG is bad for you.

@SpatzieLover How is MSG an excitotoxin? And no, I’m not an autism specialist.

And just to be clear, I’m not disputing the idea that MSG is harmful. I just want to see evidence that it is. I could be easily swayed if there was good evidence to support it.

@Rarebear I don’t have “one” well designed study ..it is sort of a mess of a bunch of studies from my own research. Which is why I said I’ll get back to you on it ..it’s alot of information to sift through.
And, MSG is indeed an excitotoxin.

@PluckyDog No problem. Take your time. I’m curious to see what you have.

As with a lot of studies of that sort, a lot of controversy occurs with products that are basically ubiquitous. Usually means it’s unhealthy, but because business interests fund contrarian studies, it’s always “open for debate”. Just look at the PR campaign for HFCS.

Anyhow, if there are natural, healthy alternatives, why bother with the unknown stuff? :)

I’m certain in time I could find many other studies for you @Rarebear. But here is one tiny one for you to read on Fibromyalgia that concludes:

The elimination of MSG and other excitotoxins from the diets of patients with fibromyalgia offers a benign treatment option that has the potential for dramatic results in a subset of patients.

If you didn’t know it was an excitotoxin, then you may want to do some more reading. MSG is linked as a cause for problematic symptoms of many illnesses.

@SpatzieLover “MSG is linked as a cause for problematic symptoms of many illnesses.” Like what?

And the study you linked was a case review of 4 patients. I don’t make clinical decisions based upon that small a statistical sample.

This question is worded sort of funnily.

@Rarebear How many studies would you like to read?

I am not a doctor. However, I find it concerning that it is in so many food products, and is now found inside of chickens, turkeys, and on vegetables in fields.

Type 2 Diabetes

Liver inflammation and Dysplasia

Asthma

Macular Degeneration

@Rarebear hmmm, but you’re making a stink about 4 cases of H1N1 on your question about vaccines. Isn’t that a small sample as well, and also confined to your hospital? just curious how that is different?

Dr. Dean Ornish says It would be prudent to avoid it until more information is available

@jonsblond Red herring argument.
@SpatzieLover I’ll look at your links and comment later. At the moment I’m at work taking care of the patients @jonsblond is talking about.

@Rarebear Wasn’t trying to be an ass, really. Just wondering.

@jonsblond I had the same thought but saw you had already mentioned it.

sheesh….doctors, huh?

@ladymia69 Yeah, we suck.

@jonsblond Okay, you’re comparing apples and oranges. There is ample evidence that flu shots prevent flu. The case report that @SpatzieLover is certainly interesting, but is hardly proof. I see case report studies all the time in the medical literature. The journals are full of them because they’re easy to publish. But you can find case reports for practically anything and should not warrant more than a “huh.”

Finally got around to looking at @SpatzieLover‘s links.
First, the Dean Ornish link. It’s just one man’s opinion. It’s not medical evidence.

Second, the diabetes link. It’s a mouse experiment, not humans. Again, it’s interesting, but not clinically relevant.

Third, the NASH link. It’s another mouse study done by the same group as the one above. Again, it’s interesting, but not clinically relevant.

Fourth, the asthma study. This is the first study I’d pay attention to. I’d have to see the methodology itself by reading the paper, but at least a) they used humans and b) it was a placebo controlled study. My criticism of this is that it was small—only 32 participants. It’s difficult to make conclusions based upon that small a number.

Lastly, the macular degeneration link. That’s a website article that references other articles without providing links, so I can’t really comment on it. What I can say is that the macular degeneration bit was again done with lab animals. Again, interesting, but not clinically relevant.

Look, I’m not saying MSG is good for you. Clearly some people have bad reactions to it, just like some people have bad reactions to peanuts. I’m personally allergic to beer (which is supremely ironic in my case because I’m a homebrewer). But that doesn’t mean that beer is bad for everybody. But if you take beer in high doses over long periods of time it can cause cirrhosis, obesity, pancreatitis, hepatitis, and death. Just like, I’m sure, if you inject megadoses of MSG into mice it’ll cause them problems as well.

The OP asked if it’s possible that MSG is not bad for you. Clearly it’s bad for some people who are sensitive to it. It doesn’t necessarily mean it’s bad for everybody.

@Rarebear ..sorry about not replying in quite some time. There have been two deaths in our family in the last month and I haven’t been online much at all. I had to actually come and check what it was I needed to look for (all I could remember was that there was something on Fluther I was suppose to do). Any ways, I’ll try to find some more of that info if you are still interested.

@PluckyDog I’m so sorry about the deaths in your family, my condolences.
Don’t worry about the MSG research—it is immaterial compared to what you are going through right now.

Thank you Rarebear. It’s no trouble ..I’ll just pluck away at it and see what I come up with this week :)

So, I’ve been going through the internet looking for my old information ..and, of course, I’m coming up short. I did find some websites. Most of my more detailed research was through my university sites (to which I can no longer access because I am no longer a student).

There are studies going on now that won’t be done for another year or so. I have a short list of websites that have a wealth of information through links to studies and such. I hope it helps a bit. I do have notes I’ve written on it myself through my own studies but those are not going to be found anytime soon ..lol. I have a garage full of boxes from moving that I still can’t get to.

As for “mass” human studies on msg ..those are not as easy to come by through internet research. Although, those types of studies are in the works more so these days ..as more people become educated on the matter and grow concerned.

http://www.feingold.org/Research/msg.html (Various MSG studies)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Excitotoxicity
http://www.msgtruth.org
http://badscienceblindtruth.wordpress.com/category/excititoxins-msg/
http://www.rense.com/general92/msg4you.htm

There are 100’s of videos as well, here’s a couple that give some basic information:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g-pnzj0c06Q

This one is from an american news program which many are probably familiar with (there are 4 parts to this video):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=txiVDY-prk4&feature=related

As for books, I’ll list the ones I can remember reading (as I’m just unpacking my books this week) – some are for the average reader, others are much more scientific:
– Excitoxins: The Taste That Kills
– The Glutamate Synapse as a Therapeutic Target: Molecular Organization and Pathology of the Glutamate Synapse
– Neurochemical Aspects of Excitotoxicity
– Hundred Year Lie
– Nutrients, Stress and Medical Disorders

I know it’s not exactly what you (Rarebear) are looking for. But I’m hoping it helps point you in the right direction.

@PluckyDog – You deserve a 5x lurve award for putting all that time and effort into your post!

@PluckyDog OK, it’s going to take me awhile to go through them, and I won’t watch the videos—all I’m interested in is hard evidence where I can see the methodology and the data. I’ll pull the papers that I can. But thanks for pulling that together. I’ll give you my response when I get a chance. To be clear, I’m looking for evidence of harm. (Not just evidence of some effect that has no clinical significance).

@MissAnthrope Thank you :)
@Rarebear No problem, I hope you find some of what you need.

I’m going to have to go through these slowly, one by one.
First reference: Here are the qualifiers.
may eventually disturb
may favor formation
may also depress
possibly influencing

I don’t think I’ve seen more “mays” and “possiblies” on one paragraph ever. Sorry, this is not evidence of harm.

I’ll get to the others later.

I think the point to be made here is that MSG, as it is used now, is harmful. The amount that is used in our food is not healthy (the amount the average person, in north america, is consuming regularily). In saying that, obviously not everyone will suffer from the same issues that MSG causes or influences. Just as cigarettes do not cause cancer in every single person that smokes them. It does not make cigarettes any less harmful though.

Remember, MSG is an excitotoxin ..and excitotoxins are, well, toxic.

@PluckyDog “I think the point to be made here is that MSG, as it is used now, is harmful.”
And I contend that I have seen no evidence that it is harmful. I will keep looking through your links. The first link doesn’t prove anything. I’ll look at the others.

Okay, second article was about megadoses in rats. Doesn’t prove anything.

Third article: ”” . . . Oral (L)-glutamate enhances glucose-induced insulin secretion in healthy volunteers in a concentration-dependent manner. ” OK, so they so some insulin secretion. So what? Is there evidence of harm?

4th article: Rats.

5th article. The author tested on one patient—himself. Useless data.

6th article: This is the first one that is actually worth paying attention to. I will stop my criticism here and read that one and get back to you.

Okay, pulled the 6th article and read it. Placebo controlled trial, BUT there were only 8 (that’s eight) patients given placebo. As a result, this study is statistically useless as well. Might as well flip a coin.

I’ll keep looking at your links.

You may find this site more useful. It is loaded with information on the matter.

Maybe people should be asking for proof that MSG is not harmful ..interesting how it’s almost always the other way around. Seriously.

Look, water is fatal if you take it in concentrations high enough. And the link you had was on aspartame, not MSG>

Aspartame is MSG.

Here are some other names MSG hides behind:

E621
Aspartame
Broth
Casein/Caseinate
Calcium Caseinate
Sodium Caseinate
Glutamate
Hydrolyzed anything (yeast, corn, etc)
Autolyzed anything
Textured Protein
Gelatin
Natrium Glutamate
Yeast Food
Yeast Extract
Yeast Nutrient
Natural Flavouring

There is a reason the companies hide it under different labels. They know that a lot of consumers won’t buy it if it says MSG or Monosodium Glutamate.

@PluckyDog What? Aspartame is a methyl ester of a phenylaline bipeptide.

I’m going to stop wasting my time wading through the misinformation you’re posting.

Heh… I meant that It’s a methyl ester of a dipeptide of aspartic acid and phenylalanine.

@Rarebear Yes, you are correct. I should not have posted that aspartame is MSG ..I should have said it differently. My frustration is showing ..heh.
Our body can, and does, turn aspartate into glutamate. Aspartate is in the same category as glutamate/MSG (in regards to the negative effects on our bodies and the usage in our food). I am not able to explain the chemical process off the top of my head.

I am not a teacher ..I really don’t know how to school someone in this stuff. I do make mistakes. My advice ..if anyone really wants to know and learn about it in depth, is to get some books on excitoxins and neurotoxicology. That’s what I had to do to understand how it all connects and works in further detail.
I do understand that there is a lack of “lab” results that are available to the public ..I can’t do anything about that. But, seriously, when you learn about aspartate, glutamate, etc and how they work in the human brain (because of what they are), it’s pretty clear. It was enough for me any ways.

I apologize for not being able to give a clearer answer and/or better links.

I don’t blame you for not finding better links because the data is not there.

@Dutchess_III Don’t worry about it. As I said above, there are some people who are sensitive to MSG and have allergy. Others don’t have any problem.

@Rarebear Big Grin! Seems like anything that has a big name that the average person can’t recognize is assumed to be bad for you. Sodium chloride, for example, must be toxic in some way, in any amount. Must be avoided at all cost. With a complicated name like that, it just has to be bad!

And yeah. I SO caught your error with the aspartame…WTH???!!! : )

@Dutchess_III Of course sodium chloride is toxic. It causes hypertension.

That’s true.
Oh,and let us not forget dihydrogen monoxide. There have been a few reported cases of people actually over-dosing on this compound, and dying. Daid. Not one more person should die because of it. It needs to be banned completely.

I’m willing to lay big money on the wager that more people die from deaths related from something to do with dihydrogen monoxide than monosodium glutamate.

And I’ll bet you double that 100% of people who come into contact with dihydrogen monoxide die.

Well, certainly if they inhale it in large quantities in liquid form, yes.

True dat! Especially if it’s not beer!