I think some rape cases are more violent than others. But I don’t think that was what Mr. Clarke was saying, and I think it’d be nice for even the “serious” rapes to be treated seriously by white men in power before they go around trying to figure out all the shades of gray.

Rape is a serious crime for both the victim and the accused. In thinking about how rape is portrayed in the news and in movies, I could see how a man could construe that there are different degrees of rape:

Willing woman who charges rape after the fact as coersion
Willing sexual partner or spouse who is forced by her partner to have sex
Half clad drunk girl in a frat house—there are movies about this; common sense should dictate the out come.
Date rape
Gang rape
Abduction with repeated rape
Forced prostitution
Gang rape with permanent physical harm
Rape of child
Rape resulting in death of victim

It’s an awkward remark, yes. I do not believe that Mr. Clarke meant it in the way it came out though.

I believe all rape cases are equally serious.

People don’t generally like to put rape on a sliding scale. It’s taboo to do so. I feel uncomfortable viewing it that way myself. But, I do understand that there are different degrees or categories, if you will, for rape. It does not make one less serious than the next.

It’s an extremely touchy subject and will be interesting to see what other posters have to say on the matter.

I think that if a victim of a rape case walkes away with more psychological damage than an other then the first case is in my oppinion more serious than the second but the second case is not in any way to be seen less serious than the first. If you guys get what i’m trying to say.

Yes, rape is rape, and should be treated equally seriously. However, what Clark was (clumsily) saying is that there can be mitigating and aggravating factors (as with all crimes) and this is self evidently true.

I’ll probably catch flack for this but I get what he probably meant. Some are going to be treated more seriously.
Lets say, you have two rapes that happened the same week, and one rape has to go to court immediately so they go to jail quicker. One rape is a date rape of a college student and it was by some guy she had recently broken her relationship with. The second rape was the rape of a 10 year old girl but a neighbor she had never spoken too.
Chances are the second rapist has done this before and will do it again to another random person and so his actions are harder to defend against. The first rapist although equally horrible is less likely to attack random women since the object of his desire is this one person. Till his case comes up she can take steps in the future to assure her safety until court.
Then there are the rapist who also murder who would be considered worse as well or those who rape and disfigures their victims.

@Pandora Rape, date rape or otherwise, is about power and entitlement. A date rapists is actually very likely to have raped previously, and to rape again, because he sees it as his right to do so.

I’m thinking those are all pretty much on the same footing as, “Rape”

I guess maybe its more severe if the rapist also beats the victim, or if the victim is a child?

But rape is rape for the most part in my book.

@MyNewtBoobs I’m referring to the type of person who may be more of a stalker of an ex-wife or ex-girlfriend vs someone who just date rapes. This type of person is less of a threat to the community vise the other person because he is simply fixed on one person till they find a new interest. I’m talking about the type of person who believes he’s in love with this one idea person.
Stalkers usually don’t move on so quickly and the object of their attention can take steps to protect themselves in the mean time and even arm themselves. You can’t ask a whole community to arm themselves and their children till this person is imprisioned.

There is a lot of drama tied up in all this upset over this guy’s choice of words. But what the guy said is true. You’re always letting your self in for a verbal beating if you talk about stuff like this because people are so upset already they want someone to pay, even if it’s not the perpetrator.

His choice of words is unfortunate, but I’m not sure there is a way he could have said anything about this without upsetting SOMEONE.

Bad choice of words…but that’s it.

The only offensive thing about this hullabaloo in the end is the fact that there are actual calls for him to resign over a sentence that would have most likely have caused no stir whatsoever if he had put the word “more” in front of “serious.” (The actual line seems to have been along the lines of disputing “reports that the average sentence for rape was five years and insisted that “serious rape” attracted a much longer term.”)

No matter what a rape is a rape and it’s a bad thing.

the only rape that I would consider less serious is where both parties are under age willing partners and it is the parents filing the charges

@MyNewtBoobs

Rape, date rape or otherwise, is about power and entitlement. A date rapists is actually very likely to have raped previously, and to rape again, because he sees it as his right to do so.

I actually fundamentally disagree with this. “Date rape” isn’t clearly about power and entitlement in many cases – as it describes more a cultural phenomenon then it does an actual type of crime.

Of course you’re right that many times it is about power and entitlement. However, there are more than a few cases where there is a real problem in determining consent.

I agree with those who say they are not all equal. Especially statutory rape, but that does not seem to be being discussed here. If my husband forced himself on me, which I do think is rape; compared to a man getting into my car threatening me with a weapon and having me drive to a contruction sight to forceably rape me, or a man coming into my second story sliding glass door (those happened to women I know) the former will be traumatic, but the latter examples would be terrifying and affect me more into the future, and I worry more for society regarding the stranger rape in my examples.

The act of rape is heinous on its own. I think all cases of rape are equally serious.

He was perhaps thinking that if a woman was not physically hurt, it was less serious, but the mental and emotional violation of rape is very traumatizing all on its own.

@marinelife But you think they are equally emotionally traumatizing?

@JLeslie Who knows, but the base level of trauma is high enough. I don’t think we need to differentiate. That would be like saying “Who hurts more? The person with the broken leg or the broken back?”

@marinelife – But the law does differentiate – in degrees, for example, for murder.

There are many factors that the law considers in terms of punishing crimes in order to make sure that it is being applied fairly. I think the problem here is that the fact that there are cases of rape that are considered more serious than others, that doesn’t mean in any sense that all cases of rape are not objectively serious.

Suggesting that there are cases that are more serious does not mean that there are non-serious cases. Serious is the baseline…and cases can be more serious or more grave by degree….

I think they should all be prosecuted as seriously as each other, but raping a child in my opinion is more serious than raping adults. ALL of it is horrendous.

Another classic case of a media driven witchunt. An all to familiar sight in the age of the sound bite.

@ucme – well said.

@iamthemob I do have my moments, although a small typo slightly soils an otherwise flawless observation :¬)

Nope, two people in love, where one happens to be 19 and the other 17 is different than violent rapes. Well, I guess that would be the only exception, but all other rapes are equal.

@Blackberry – So you would consider a date rape to be equal to a violent repeated rape?

@iamthemob I would consider the two equal. Just because I’m on a date with someone doesn’t mean they can force their dick inside of me when I say no several times, pound on their chest and cry to keep it from happening.

@iamthemob It depends on the details of the date rape, so I guess….they’re actually not equal. And when I say “not equal”, I don’t mean one is less important. Like nikipedia said, there are degrees.

I agree with @iamthemob—just like there are degrees of seriousness in murder, there are degrees of seriousness in rape. That doesn’t make any rape ok—just, some are really horrible and some are even more horrible. And as unpleasant as it is to think about, the purpose of a court of law is to make judgments like that.

What @jonsblond said, 1000 times over. Date rape is a meaningless term

If you’re going to rate the seriousness of rape, then it should only include acts of physical violence. If a woman was beaten to a pulp along with being raped, that I would consider being more serious than any other rape (with the exception of children).

No one can say being raped by someone you don’t know is more serious than being raped by someone you do know. They are both equal. Some could say being raped by someone you do know would hurt worse. You don’t expect it from someone you trust.

I think he didn’t mean to imply that some rapes weren’t serious, but that there can be circumstances that can make it much worse for the victim, like going through the trial process. I don’t think a rapist that pleads guilty should get 50% of his sentence removed. That sucks.

@jonsblond – you’re adding a few facts to the situation, though – and also for some reason extrapolating from the suggestion that all forms of rape are “not equal” to mean that somehow one is okay. Not at all – rape is never, ever okay. But that doesn’t mean that all cases of rape are equal.

And I’m certainly not, and no one should, claim that objectively knowledge of the rapist makes it less serious than rape by a stranger. However, there are cases where an intent to rape is lacking, and a man is raised in a manner where they don’t recognize signs of non-consent, or retraction of consent, etc. when moving forward with a sexual act. There are also women who, regrettably, freeze up or don’t communicate a lack of consent and therefore experience a rape where, in all honesty, no such lack was communicated to the man.

I do not contend that a non-recognition of signals is an excuse so that a person should be relieved of liability for rape, or that an in ability for one reason or another to communicate that one is not consenting to sex is a reason to not take the situation very, very seriously – however, I think that part of the problems associated with reporting and prosecuting rape is a conception of “rape is rape.” Just because a rape may be less violent or forceful or not based on a clear desire to degrade the victim doesn’t mean that it’s not still rape – but we should be honest in looking at rape and admit that there are different levels of victimization.

I wasn’t raped on a date but I fought off what now would be considered assaults several times. They were painful but didn’t scar me in the same way that repeated coercive abuse did. I think there are differences but I understand why the remark was assailed.

@janbb – I get why it was assailed as well – however, do you agree that the level of the criticism and the repercussions suggested as well?

Personally, I think that the level of the reaction is actually problematic in terms of ensuring strong rape prosecutions.

@iamthemob You misunderstood me, or I wasn’t clear with my thoughts. I never said (or meant) because one may be worse in someone else’s eyes means the other is ok (please don’t put words in my mouth). I do feel it’s sad that many women don’t come forth after being raped because they feel no one will believe them. Since rape isn’t rape, they don’t tell anyone and the rapist goes free to rape again. I’m going to quit following because it’s too personal for me, having been raped twice myself. I should have stayed out of this discussion, clearly.

I think its like how you can have one infinity larger than another infinity in mathematics. The “mildest” form of rape is still one of the most heinous acts that can be perpetrated against another person, but there are some cases that are even worse than that (violently gang raping women by soldiers at security checkpoints to terrorize populations in order to maintain political control would be one recent example that comes to mind).

@gorillapaws – Yeah – I think that a form of rape that also would qualify as an act of genocide seems to be a particularly horrific type that deserves singling out.

Interesting conversation. I can see both sides of the story here. Fundamentally, in terms of the person to whom rape has occurred, all rapes are equally serious because it happened to them, perhaps more than once, and they have every right to feel theirs was as traumatic as they felt it to be. However, people who have been raped more than once by different people do what this guy did themselves – they say ‘this one was worse because it was my father, someone I grew up with and trusted’ or something like that so, obviously, people do recognize they can experience a variety of trauma from the rape. I agree that all rapes should be taken seriously and punished seriously but there are other factors that, when added in, make some rapes more heinous rather than more serious.

@iamthemob Yes, I think in opur haste to jump on public figures for what seem like tactless remarks, we are losing a great deal of the nuance in public discourse and it is a deplorable state of affairs. Of course, rape is rape but there are also differences in the impact or severity of the violence.

@janbb

I know that you say it with a more nuanced understanding, but I think that the phrase “rape is rape” is part of the problem we’re talking about.

I think that a more proper way to state the issue is “rape is always an act of violence, intended or not.” “Rape is rape” runs contrary to the very discussion we’re having, in many ways.

@iamthemob I stand corrected, truly – however, I think the rest of my sentence explained what I meant. I am trying to straddle the line again between feminism and nuance. Or find it.

@janbb – I hope that my first sentence in my response made clear to you that I knew you knew what you were really saying with the “rape is rape” statement. ;-)

I think that your statement about feminism and nuance is astute. and incredibly relevant. I think that part of the problem in feminism now is that we’re at a point culturally where I think that what has classically been thought of as “feminist rhetoric” or “feminist action” is borderline irrelevant. I think that an increased focus on nuance is exactly what feminism needs.

I think date rape is the same as stranger rape, assuming the date rape is a rape when the two people have never had sex before. But, rape when the people are in a current relationship and have a sexual relationship is a little different in my mind. It is still rape to me, but most likely in that situation the woman is not terrified she might be killed, unless her husband is abusive all around, which is likely the case, and then there are all sorts of problems, criminal problems. Some women might feel raped just because they went along with sex with their boyfriend when they did not feel like it, and they said no, but still kind of went along. He should have stopped, but maybe he did not take her seriously enough and would have stopped if she was more adamant. He is still wrong, she should not have to say no twice, but when two people have a long term sexual relationship their body sort of becomes your body. I find woman vary vastly on whether they feel sexually abused or raped and whether it persists as an every day part of their psyche. If I had sex with my husband when I was not really wanting to, if I had been emotionally moving away from, and had no desire to be physical with him, if he kind of got me to have sex, even though I voiced I did not want to, I think afterwards I would cry, and feel used, maybe dirty, but I would not feel he deserved criminal punishment.

The law cares about punishing, but it also cares about societies safety. Serial rapists lurking in parking lots are a bigger problem to society at large than the one asshole criminal violen rapist boyfriend. If the law has to prioritize, then protecting the many would be the priority.

As a mom, I can honestly say that I see different levels of seriousness when it comes to rape prosecution. It can go anywhere from date raping a notorious flirt (which is still truly awful btw), to raping a child. I think you’re all aware of how I feel about children being hurt.

There is no 1–10 scale when it comes to rape, but I can seriously understand that some people, like myself, can look at different rapes in a totally different manner.

All the controversy surrounding Mr. Clarke’s statement is nothing but bullshit.

@WillWorkForChocolate Just wondering, what does you being a mom have anything to do with your opinion about the question lol?

To me raping a child is in a whole different class. If it is any sexual act classified as pediphilia I think it is almost a separate topic.

@iamthemob There happen to be many feminisms, both in the U.S. and globally. There is no single face of femism or feminist rhetoric.

@Blackberry I’ve always abhored child abuse, but now that I have kids, I feel that molestation/rape of children is 100x worse than any other rape. Having my own children has made me really develop a hatred towards anyone who touches a child.

@WillWorkForChocolate You had to have a child to think rape of a child is worse?

@JLeslie No, and that’s why I changed the wording of my comment. I always thought it was godawful, but birthing my own children and feeling that mother bear love for them made it much much worse.

@WillWorkForChocolate Ahhh, gotcha.

@Simone_De_Beauvoir – You’re quite correct. However, that’s a nuanced understanding of feminism. ;-)

I’m more discussing the perceived, stereotypical, classic sense that the public generally has about feminism, feminist positions, rhetoric, etc. Most people you meet, unfortunately, will have a simple view of feminism that is more about the “one face.” Such is the case with most civil rights movements. Once rolling, they end up most of the time have a public face that is considered kind of “in your face.”

@iamthemob I guess I’ve been away from ‘most public’ for a long time (save for Fluther), I just don’t know WHO they think even represents feminism, these days.

@Simone_De_Beauvoir – it’s probably better that you don’t know. ;-)

@iamthemob It’s not Sarah Palin, is it?!!!!

@Simone_De_Beauvoir – Simone…friggin trust me…some things you can’t unknow.

Rape is rape and no is no. The victim’s rights had been violated and no matter how you try to explain I think it should have been the same as murder.

@iamthemob So if it’s not about power, or entitlement, what’s date rape about? I don’t see tons men with really healthy respects for other human beings and a strong grasp of the meaning of the word “no” being accused of date rape.

@MyNewtBoobs – I never stated that it was not about power or entitlement – merely that it was not always about power and entitlement.

I think that I already addressed part of this in my original response in mentioning consent problems. Although there are plenty of men who do respect women and have a strong grasop of the meaning of the word no, there are many women who themselves don’t have a strong grasp on the ability to say no. Then there are situations where people get drunk – where people black out.

And of course, boys and men have their own external social pressures. There are frequently situations where a guy finds that it is not only admirable to have a lot of sex, but if they don’t or can’t “seal the deal” with a girl and it gets around they run the risk of being called a faggot. It’s not often that extreme, but there are plenty of times when people act stupidly and it’s not about bad intent.

Claiming that rape is about power and entitlement simplifies the issue too much.

@iamthemob So there are a few women who can’t say no and the rest of us are fucked? You are coming at this question from a lawyer’s perspective, I am from a victim’s perspective. I didn’t tell anyone about my rapes because I felt no one would believe me. Thanks to lawyers a victim is questioned more than the accused rapist. Because of this, rapists are free to rape again.

I don’t have any statistics, but I’d bet there are more women that have been raped and didn’t report it than men that are falsely accused.

I know I said I was done following, but get a few beers in me. ugh

@jonsblond I agree with you. We don’t need statistics on the matter. All one has to do is ask the women in their lives. And, there the answer would be.

@jonsblond – We are going to have to clear something up, because I really, really hope you did not just mean to say what I just think you said. You state that I am approaching this from a lawyer’s perspective, and you a victim’s. I don’t wholly agree, but that’s not really what’s wrong here.

Then, you state that you didn’t tell anyone about your rape because you thought no one would believe you. That’s indeed a common problem – rape is horrifically underreported.

Then, you say that thanks to lawyers victims are questioned more than accused rapists and because of that rapists go free.

Wow. You know, I read that, and I see you saying – “You and people like you are the reason why I didn’t report my rape and why rapists get to rape with impunity.”

Maybe it was careless wording – but if it was not, then the conversation you and I are going to have to have would best be done over private messages, as what I have to say certainly will not be appropriate for public forum.

@iamthemob poor wording, but I do think it is terrible that many women feel they can’t tell anyone because of what is in store for them if they do. (What were you wearing? Were you drinking? Are you sure you didn’t lead him on? bs)

Rape is rape. The accused should have to fight for their innocence in court, not the victim.

@iamthemob then the conversation you and I are going to have to have would best be done over private messages, as what I have to say certainly will not be appropriate for public forum.
seriously? Is that some kind of a threat? That’s pretty fucked up.

@jonsblond – ANY suggestion that the victim was accountable is unacceptable (in the other rape thread, I talk about the SlutWalk movement, which is an amazing response to that phenomenon, I think). Yes, practically, victims can do various things that make them a more attractive target for a victimizer. Wave your cash around and then walk down a dark alley and yeah – if you get mugged you definitely helped contribute to the fact that you were the target the mugger went for. But it would be ridiculous to ask about that when interviewing the victim, because it has NOTHING to do with the crime – the crime is objective. Same thing with rape, and it amazes me that people have the gall to even bring it up after all these years, still.

And there was nothing threatening in my response to you – I stated that I was going to reserve judgment but if you intended to say that I somehow promote rape, and personally was the kind of person responsible for you not reporting your rape, that’s fucked up itself, and we were going to have to move to PMs in that case because there was going to be some venting. Since it’s poor wording, I can just sigh and move on.

@jonsblond I agree that what a girl wears should not even be asked by a lawyer. Maybe she needs to think about, just like the guy wearing the Rolex and Armani suit walking down the alley, but it has nothing to do with the crime. But, in the case of say date rape, don’t you think it is appropriate to have to ask some details? What if some 18 year old high school kid didn’t want to hurt the girl, and took her trying to push his hands away once as a game, and then she relented being young as well? She felt she had no voice, but then afterwards feels raped. I think she was raped, but is that young man really a rapist? Destined to harm many women? Or, bad judgment and maybe needs some better guidance that you never do anything unless the girl is in full cooperation. If you are not the victim, but the mom of the young man, does it change your answer? I am not saying my opinion one way or another, just curious what you think.

@JLeslie – I would argue that the initial investigation should not deal with who was intoxicated or anything about what led up to the situation at all, in any case. You’re right that it is potentially relevant in cases of rape that involve people who knew each other (e.g., not simply a random attack)...but to consider it initially in any way is exactly the type of thing that makes victims reluctant to report.

@JLeslie The problem with approaching date rape as you mentioned is that “date rape” simply means rape by a guy (or gal) you already knew. There’s no difference in terminology between the situation you mentioned and a boyfriend who tells you that he took naked pictures of you while you were asleep, and if you resist him, he’ll email them to your parents, clergyman, and boss. Or the male friend who waits for you to pass out on the couch before raping you. Pretty much all rape outside of stranger rape and child rape can be called “date rape”. We use it as a way to signify severity, because somehow getting raped by someone you cared about and trusted to not hurt you in even smaller ways that the rest of the world does is supposed to be better, but it’s really nothing like that.

Yes. I don’t see why not. Here’s a video you might find amusing about rape or possibly helpful:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=geQyrBGS_60

Don’t jump to conclusions saying I’m a rape supporter, just watch it. Or don’t.

@comicalmayhem

This is the list the man is referring to in the video you linked (in case anyone is interested).

@MyNewtBoobs That’s the thing. Date rape has different degrees also. Anything from somewhat of a misunderstanding to the guy you know and agreed to spend time with literally holds you down while you are trying to kick him off and begging him to stop, he has to hold your hands still to keep you from scratching or pushing him and forces your legs open to penetrate you.

@PluckyDog I know, the feminist who wrote it is really ridiculous.

@comicalmayhem – after reading through some of the comments on that blog, where are one point she claims to be a “radical feminist” who doesn’t normally approve comments by men because they always try to control or dominate the conversation blah dee blah blah blah blah.

The problem is, so much of her list is right in terms of how much we actually do support rape socially – but to focus it on men is the problem.

She’s not a radical feminist. She’s anti-man.

@iamthemob Not every man is a rape supporter, and there is not one man who doesn’t fit that list. If I laugh at a joke about females or their rights, then I support having sex with them when they don’t want it? That’s not a reasonable conditional statement. A lot of what she says has nothing to do with actually having sex with a woman who doesn’t want it or approving of someone else having sex with a woman who doesn’t want it. She probably has the wrong idea of rape.

@comicalmayhem

I think that there are two problems with your statement above:

(1) It seems like it’s based on an assumption that I was asserting that everything on the list was accurate. Rather, I claimed that so much of it was – really, meaning more than what most people would expect or think of as being supportive of rape.

(2) I think that your definition of “rape support” is far more specific than what we should think of as being supportive of rape. Much of what we do that supports rape is about propagating the “rape culture.” So, it’s not about specifically advocating that forcing someone into sex without their consent, but rather creating an environment where sexual interactions become so problematic that one can’t really automatically consider consent as being willing.

@iamthemob I didn’t say none of it is accurate. I meant that most of it isn’t correct. And just because you think about sex or find a woman sexually attractive a.k.a if you’re heterosexual, you support rape. No, if it even relates to wanting sex with a women doesn’t mean you would force sex with a woman who is unwilling.

It doesn’t question that necessarily. It questions really whether you would actually know whether a woman was consenting (you in the general sense, of course), whether consent in a society where the majority of men do or think several of the things on the list actually means willful consent, and whether social pressures encourage consent in improper situations.