Judging by the results (the amount of people that accept evolution as the fact it is), not nearly enough.
“I am not talking about dumping all science, biology, and history of man, just the evolution topic.”
Evolution is the foundation of modern biology. Dropping it would be the same as teaching chemistry with out teaching the kids that matter is made of atoms and molecules, teaching physics without teaching Newtonian mechanics, teaching Astronomy without teaching that the earth goes around the sun, teaching english without the alphabet.

It is a huge deal, because it is the context for everything that we know about the life sciences. That said, it will take up little space in the curriculum early on, and become increasingly detailed as the students leave high school.

“Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution” ~ T. Dobzhansky

It’s huge even for reasons that aren’t directly related to “evolution” itself. For one thing, it helps to teach about the age of the planet. It’s not “just a few thousand years old”, but billions of years.

It helps especially to learn some of Steven Jay Gould’s explanations that “evolution isn’t a tree” with mankind as the star on the top of the tree. It’s a bush, and man is just another branch.

Learning those things will might help children become adults who view the world from a different perspective. Not learning those things means that there’s no chance to gain that perspective.

Seems to me it was just a thread running through all of my science classes. I mean, how much is there to learn specifically about evolution, all by itself? Maybe a week’s worth. They taught us scientific classification…and the tree, to me, said it all. And I don’t think they were actively teaching evolution in those days.

I don’t remember any of it! I know it had to be taught at some point or I wouldn’t know about it, but like @Dutchess_III I don’t remember any active teachings on evolution. I did have some creation science in elementary school, because it was the 70’s and I went to Catholic schools.

As far as evolution in public education, evolution is only covered for one or two weeks in maybe two classes, unless you decide to major in biology. I’m from South Carolina, where teachers aren’t allowed to call intelligent design “wrong” and have to carefully word explanations as to not criticize any student’s religious beliefs about the age of the Earth, so that explains the lack of evolution teaching.

As for importance, evolution is the key to understanding all of the Earth’s natural history. Whenever you talk about the Earth being several billion years old, or the age of the dinosaurs, or the Precambrian time, you invoke evolution. There is no way to talk about or understand the changes of life over time without invoking evolution, since evolution is pretty much defined as “the change of life over time.”

I remember that for me, it was gone over many times in 7th Grade Biology class and when I took AP Biology in high school my junior year. Other than that, I don’t remember really ever going over it.

I’m so glad this wasn’t an issue in school when I was a kid.

@JLeslie In the details (which I just read) you said, “There are all sorts of topics students don’t know when they graduate high school. I am not talking about dumping all science, biology, and history of man, just the evolution topic.” Well, to refer my my response…I don’t know that the schools actively teach evolution. They teach science. And science, quite simply, points to evolution. So you can dump using the WORD “evolution” but you can’t dump the evidence pointing to it without dumping science altogether.

I can’t recall evolution being a controversial topic when I was in school and basically we were required to pass a course in biology when I was in high school. In my opinion what we learnt in biology clearly points towards evolution, not creationism. I think that what is more important is how we come to make our decisions and whether or not we utilize our critical thinking abilities while doing so.

@Paradox25 Exactly. It is not a teacher’s job to tell the students what she “believes,” thereby implying to the suggestible buggers what they should believe. It’s a teacher’s job to teach the facts, Ma’am.

My seventh grade science class skirted evolution by talking about “adaptation” and talking about the difference between “micro evolution” and “macro evolution”. I had to change states and take “Origins of Humanity” in college before I actually got lessons about evolution. It was a pretty cool class.

So in my case my public schooling basically gave me zero education regarding evolution. They made up for it by telling us condoms didn’t protect against aids.

@fundevogel South Carolina schools aren’t even allowed to talk about birth control.

Jeeezzzz.

Yes, it’s a huge deal if it isn’t taught. Evolution is the foundation of biology.

Discussing things like adaptation, ecosystems, the different groups of plants and animals, make no damn sense unless you understand evolution.

It’s like talking about the orbits of moons and planets and stars without discussing the existence of gravity.

Maybe it depends how we define evolution? I remember in 6th grade being taught evolution, that man evolved from primates. It seems to me a lot of Christians are very upset by, and dismiss this idea, but do not completely reject Darwins observations and theories.

The next science class I really remember clearly was 10th grade biology, which was mandatory. I really enjoyed the class, learned a ton, and still remember a lot of what I learned in that class. I learned how to identify parameciums and amoebas under the microscope, basics about heridity and genes, meiosis, and meitosis, basic human anatomy, sex ed including how the sex organs work, pregnancy and birth, and more. It did not really matter if I knew about evolution to learn these concepts. It would matter, in my opinion, if I were going to go into a scientific field of study.

@JLeslie The answer surely can’t be to ignore one of the most important areas of scientific knowledge, so that a small portion of the populace doesn’t get “very upset”. Most Christians are not young earthers; the ones who are just happen to be loud and demanding. Why should the whole country move backward to meet the extremists?

This keeps playing out over and over again – when extreme conservatives whine, everyone else moves further right to keep them from “being very upset”. That’s why Santorum is a serious contender as the Republican candidate this year, and your Supreme Court is mostly conservative, and creationism (hilariously) is taught in schools, etc. etc. None of these occurrences are representative of your people as a whole, but the extreme conservatives keep pushing, and moderate conservatives and liberals keep giving up ground.

@dappled_leaves It’s not so much that I don’t want to upset them, it is to take the issue off the table. To not have the question of evolution asked during a Presidential race. I learned, know, and believe evolution, but did not take one science class in college. I studied business. Passed classes like business calculus, finance, marketing, economics, classes bioligists and scientists never or rarely take. So? If we leave science to the scientists, and stop the conversation from being so hot regarding teaching a 12 year old about evolution, maybe the unscientific people will stop interferring so much in science. Or, I could be totally naive, I have no idea. It’s just a thought I had, hence the question.

I think there are two reasons why this is important. First, not every child goes on to study business. Those who go on to study science need this background. They do.

Second, the issue will not be taken off the table by removing evolution from the high school curriculum. Instead, more children will grow up believing that “just a theory” is a reason not to take an accepted part of science seriously, and more children will grow up believing that there must be something “controversial” about it, when there is not. Consequently, your next generations of voters, to say nothing of politicians, will be uninformed on this issue. The only reason that a science curriculum is being challenged by people who are neither scientists nor teachers, is that they are uninformed. Educating everyone about this topic is the only way to take away its power as a political red herring.

@dappled_leaves Like I said, those moving forward in the sciences, taking electives in high school or classes in college would be taught evolution in my proposal. Evolution is taught now, and we still have people who deny it. The uninformed you speak of, how uninformed? I wonder what percentage of people who don’t believe in evolution are high school drop outs? Or, educated in private schools void of the theory? We have Presdiential candidates with Masters level degrees saying they don’t believe in evolution. I’m kind of thinking out of sight out of mind. If the fight in the schools dissappears, maybe the fight will lose its steam in general.

Coincidentally there was an issue about this just recently in my state that I was unaware of when I wrote the Q. I just saw a mention on TV late last night. I found this article.

@JLeslie Well, I guess we’ll just have to leave it at “we disagree strongly”.

@dappled_leaves No we don’t, because I do not feel strongly about the position I am presenting. I am just thinking it through. I wrote the Q to hear opinions, not to support some sort of opinion I have already. Mine is more of a question than opinion.

I wanted to be in the financial industry since 5th grade, and yet I was forced to learn all the science crap that is utterly useless to me right now and for the rest of my life. It was a complete waste of my time when all I needed was math and basic computer tech.

In general, teachers/professors are useless for a lot of students since all the information are in the books. The teachers/professors are there for students who can’t understand the information on their own.

@cog I would never agree with dumping all science classes. Part of primary and secondary education is to provide students with the opportunity to explore many different subjects. Basic biology is important to everyone. It teaches us how nature and our bodies work. The basics I learned in high school science have helped me understand medical problems I have had.

Why am I not surprised that such a negative attitude, even hatred, towards education and knowledge and fellow humans coupled with tremendous egoism comes from someone in the financial industry?

@JLeslie

I never said anything about dumping classes. It’s a good idea to have all the different classes available, but they should give students a taste of each class sooner then later, and only a general summary of it rather then going into heavy details. Then the students can decide sooner which direction they want to go and study only what is useful for that path.

You’re telling me basic biology is important to everyone and yet I have never had a use for it. When I have a medical issue, I go to a doctor, or I read about it on my own in a medical book. I learned about evolution, chemicals, geography, you name it. It has zero practical application for me, and I will never use this information for the rest of my life. It’s only valuable to a certain group of people.

Welcome to Fluther, @cog.

I believe that general education, the broader and deeper, the better, is valuable for anyone who intends to be “an informed citizen”. Maybe, as your name suggests, you have less grandiose plans for yourself. Maybe you “just want to get along and mind your own business”. I suppose if you really look at yourself that way (I’m not saying that’s good or bad), and you never plan to vote, never express an opinion – and never raise a child – then that might be an acceptable way to get by.

But I wouldn’t subscribe to that idea or recommend it.

In my various careers as construction manager, quality technician and software developer I can’t say that I’ve ever had a “need to know” evolution. Yet I still read about it, just because I think that “knowing more” enables me to make more sense of more of the world around me. Aren’t you curious about the way things work? Do you really want to be no more than “a cog in the machine”?

Exactly, it depends on intentions and since it depend on intentions, it would be unwise to force students to learn about everything in detail. The system should introduce all the information available and observe the students intentions. Once the intention is identified, the system should gear the courses based on that intention, thus not wasting time and resources. This should be done early.

Knowledge that has no practical value for the individual is useless and becomes a pleasurable activity. As with your example, you studied evolution because your intention was to know the world around you. This is a pleasurable activity, not a practical one. Is school a fun house or a place of practical purpose?

I actually have zero curiosity on the way things work. I buy a watch to tell time, not to analyze the mechanical operation. Materialism makes me happy, hence my intention is to make a lot of money to afford the best of it. The only way I saw/see that happening is in the financial industry since I have no salary cap.

I don’t need to learn politics, science, or arts to vote. I vote based on the above intention. For example, I can’t possibly vote for Barack Obama because he wants to raise taxes on me and regulate the industry that helps me achieve my goals. It’s the antithesis, hence I can only vote for Ron Paul who fits my intentions.

As for children, if I have any, I will hire professionals to teach them at home since I don’t have the skills nor the time to introduce each subject.

@cog, along the same lines, why bother learning about history, or current events, or how to read literature? Why do middle schoolers need to know that the earth revolves around the sun? They might end up growing up and sitting at computers leeching off financial derivative algorithms for a living, and never using that information to help themselves profit.

The nerve of schools forcing you to learn about things as a child that you won’t directly use to make a profit as a adult!

It’s amazing that, despite your wasted education, you still managed to figure out life so fully. I’m guessing you read the Fountainhead in college.

No wonder the crash happened

@Qingu,

I was forced to learn history, current events, and read Shakespeare. What good did it do? Nothing. Wasted my time. I will never utilize this information now or for the rest of my life. I now know the earth revolves around the sun, wonderful! And? Who cares? What of it? Nothing.

I honestly don’t remember how much time was devoted to evolution when I was in school, but I definitely learned about it. For reasons already mentioned, I don’t think we should leave it to the scientists only. Everyone should know about the basics, and evolution is one.

@cog I can only agree. Most of your education was wasted on you.

Well @cog….at least all that useless information has the benefit of allowing you to converse on at least a basic level with other educated people. To a certain extent.

I disagree because most of the conversations revolve around business, current events, or talking about other people. Maybe some philosophical topics.

Perhaps you could argue I’m not surrounding myself with the arm-chair PHD type, but then again I wouldn’t surround myself with those type of people because the information I was taught wasn’t an interest of mine to begin with.

Soooo one dimensional.

@Dutchess_III
Also scary that people like that are in positions that can (and will) fuck up things for everyone else.

Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss things. Poor minds discuss people.
Eleanor Roosevelt

I’m going to approach this argument from a different angle. Say that the goal of school was solely to prepare students to have future jobs. How should they go about this?

The average fifth grader is 11 years old. Let’s say that the person goes to college and completes whatever degree by the age of 26 (somewhat based off of the PhD age on this chart).

This means that 15 years have elapsed between fifth grade and when the person is 26.

Why am I choosing fifth grade? Fifth grade is when I first remember having to go to career fairs and filling out some simple questions about what I would like to be when I grow up.

So, there is a lot of time for the jobs market to change in 15 years. Many businesses don’t know what they will need 15 years in they future. How many people actually end up in exactly the same job that they thought that they would have in fifth grade? Do you know what jobs there would be in fifteen years? How much of today would you have predicted 15 years ago?

Anyway, the main point of this is that, in order to prepare students for a job when you don’t know what jobs will exist, you have make it so that they have many career choices available to them when they do decide what they want to do. You have to teach everyone the basics of everything, because not doing so closes many doors.

Good answer @PhiNotPi. However, there may be one here that doesn’t quite understand your post @PhiNotPi, because deductive reasoning was a class that (s)he felt didn’t apply to him or her so (s)he didn’t pay attention to any of that.

@PhiNotPi,

Can you list a few real life examples to prove your point?

I’m only aware of this in the industrial revolution where farmers were forced to adapt by learning how to use machinery and those that couldn’t adapt were unemployed and sunk into poverty.

When I was a child I thought I wanted to play Hockey. Wtf do I need education for at all? Then I was convinced I wanted to cook, again what do I need with any real sciences? Now I’m going to school for marine biology. Good thing I got all that foundation as a child else I’d have a whole of a hell lot more work to do later on.

Well isn’t that what I wrote originally? At an early age, expose the students to all the various information available, and then when they make their decision on what they want, or the parents make it for them, then you gear the curriculum for that path. You don’t need 15 years to introduce all the various information available.

I actually had no clue what I really wanted for my life and dropped out of college for 2 years. Now if I just opted out of more in depth science classes cause I didnt think there was any reason for them than that would have completely screwed me over.

I’m talking about k-12. In college/university you choose anything you want. You don’t have that option in k-12.

@cog In America, even as late as university level, there are still elective requirments and emphasis on having some roundness in education until finally declaring a major. Some other countries have less emphasis on it. Also, some other countries track children very early on, whether they will wind up in a vocational school, college, which degree, etc. I kind of like letting students have more diversity in their curriculum in general, even requiring it, but I am also in favor of magnet schools with an emphasis in certain subjects.

It is very difficult to know how ones interests will change over time. Also, kids go through bad years, or get a bad teacher in a subject, and might think they have no interest in a topic, and later cultivate one.

@cog Instead of going to normal high school I went to a tech school for cuilinary arts. I was convinced at the time I would be a cook. Turns out when I got into the field that it wasnt for me. But imagine if since I was going to cuilinary school that all they taught me was how to cook or things related to that trade. You dont think thatd leave me a little screwed up when I got out of school and into the real world and realized cooking wasnt for me.

Maybe you knew early on what you wanted to do and stuck to it, but thats not the case for most people

@JLeslie,

You’re missing my point. If you expose the students early to all the information and they make their decision, then there is no longer a reason for you to over-clutter their head with information that they’re not interested in or relevant for their career.

If they change their minds later on, then simply adapt to the new decision and continue gearing the specifics for the career.

When they reach college/universality, they continue on the path to their career, or if the change their minds again, just adapt to them.

You don’t need to waste their time with diversity if you already introduced it to them at an early age. They will always retain the various information available which means they will always have the option to change their minds to the previous information they were exposed to.

I once read a statistic that most people average 3 major career changes in their life time. So far I have worked in retail, real estate, and as an executive assistant.

My father was a professor, then worked on Wall Street a short time, then the federal government heading a committee to review and approve research grants, then his own business buying and selling books.

@uberbatman,

@PhiNotPi is arguing that if you wanted to be a marine biologist and the whole curriculum was geared for you to only be a marine biologist, then when you get out to find a job it would not be available for you because of the 15 year stretch in education. Basically during those 15 years of studying the scientific industry might disappear, leaving you out of work.

The rest you can read in my response to Jleslie

People can spend their entire lives studying in a particular field, there is simply too much information contained within each field for a person with only a limited amount of experience (like a person in elementary school) to actually know enough about them to make a decision. If they are forced to make a decision, then their decision will set them back in every field that they are not studying. Then, when the person changes their mind, they cannot compete with the people who were already studying that field. If they change their mind back, they will not be able to compete in any field without putting in many more years of work.

@cog When did I ever say that the scientific industry will disappear in fifteen years?

But it could. What if something huge happens and all marine life suddenly dies. Is it not better to be as well rounded as possible in case such a thing?

Its the whole dont put all your eggs in one basket arguement.

It’s not just with unlikely scenarios like the death of all sealife. Say that there were more people aspiring to become marine biologists than there are marine biology jobs. There will be someone who doesn’t get a job. What will they do then? They don’t know how to do any job that pays anything near the same amount.

I think knowing and being interested in a variety of subjects makes us interesting, and makes us interested about the world around us. We’re not robots that are only focused on one thing. We’re multi-dimensional.

To say nothing of the fact that most things today are highly multidisciplinary, and employers often look for people with a broad range of skills and knowledge.

@PhiNotPi,

You’re essentially arguing that you need years and year of in depth studying to make an accurate decision on whether or not this subject is what you want. I completely disagree. You’re not giving elementary school students enough credit.

The scientific industry was a hypothetical example of what you were essentially arguing.

@uberbatman

What is the likelihood of something like that happening? Too small. How many industrial revolutions have you heard of?

@cog you are aware of the state of our oceans arent you or did you never take the time to learn about global warming and the bleaching of coral reefs as an effect either? And it was an extreme example, @PhiNotPi is more accurate and actually a problem I may face when I get out of school. The point is its better to be prepared for all the what ifs instead of just assuming everything will turn out peachy fuckin creamy and that your life goals will never change.

Based on Penn State’s introduction to major decisions (why Penn State’s website? it showed up on Google), about half of all students change their major.

What interested me in second grade is not what I ended up doing for a living, post college degree.

@cog
It happened a non-trivial number of times
But of course knowledge like that is irrelevant to your shortsighted, egoistical worldview.

This question has really gotten off topic, but I do feel that the current debate is an important one.

Another reason that studying multiple fields of knowledge is important is the fact that all of the fields do heavily influence your daily life, even if you are not aware of it.

Something I forgot to mention. The fact that you gear the curriculum to the specific career that the student selected means he will be done with his career in half the time of what it normally takes. Now in the event that the student changes his mind, or the job doesn’t work out, they can go back and it won’t be at a disadvantage. Again, the likelihood of a job not being available due to some revolutionary change is slim. There is an industry for every subject you select.

@uberbatman,

Global warming is an extreme example since it’s going to screw over more then just marine biologists. If you don’t include these extreme examples then you don’t have to worry about putting your eggs in one basket. If you’re talking about a bad economy then you will find unemployment in every industry which means it won’t matter if you are a diverse person.

@ragingloli

An example of 5 extinctions that happened between 100–500 million years ago? Heh. Talk about extremism.

@PhiNotPi,

You will have to explain to me how my knowledge of earth science effects my everyday life.

100 million years ago is a blink of the eye compared to the age of the Earth, even more so compared to the age of the universe.

Earth science, have you ever seen the effects of earthquakes, the effect of tornados, etc. It is pretty important to help warn and explain what happened to those people, and Earth science is pretty important in that case.

Nobody can convince you that there is more to life than being ignorant of everything about the world except making money in the financial industry and spending it on material things.

If that is a fulfilling life for you, then fine, good for you. Most people want more out of life, and want more out of life for their kids.

@PhiNotPi

It’s important to the people that deal with this, but I asked you how is the earth science that I was taught important to my everyday life, not the scientists. Isn’t that your argument? Their information might be valuable to me, but my information of the same subject isn’t.

I push buttons on a computer and stare at a bunch of screens filled with numbers, news, and charts all day.

This argument is getting to a point of where I am not going to argue anymore. There is no point to arguing if I can’t convince you of anything. So if you say that you feel content pushing buttons on a computer all day, then there is nothing I can do to change your mind.

Thanks, @cog. I think I’ve learned something from you today.

I always wondered, for example, why people who live in flood plains and get flooded out… muck out the house and then move back to the same flood plain.

It never made sense to me before. How can supposedly rational and intelligent people do that, year after year?

Maybe they live their lives the way you seem to want to. I’m saddened to think that, but maybe a bit wiser now. Thanks. Sort of.

Yeaaa im just talking in circles at this point. Though I must say that “I push buttons on a computer and stare at a bunch of screens filled with numbers, news, and charts all day” sounds like a very sad existence. But if your content with it then fine…

Fear not, I think @cog is just trolling. I am curious to know which jelly he really is.

@uberbatman

The point of the description was to show you that there is no science there, no Shakespeare, no history, no arts and so on. Just economics and computer tech. Very specific. All the other subjects I was bombarded with for years are not being utilized because they’re useless here, and when I go home, they’re useless there too.

This is exactly why you shouldn’t waste a persons time with diversity. It was years of wasted time and time is valuable. That is years of your life that could have been better spent.

The job is boring, but aren’t most jobs? An accountant deals with the same papers all day. A butcher deals with the same meat all day. Etc. The job is the just the tool. The reward (money) is the goal. Money buys happiness, well at least for me it does.

… and yet, here you are, wasting time, not making money, and therefore – by your own definition – unhappy. I wonder why that is.

Ah, you just don’t know what is involved in my job. I work for a hedge fund firm. It’s all electronic. The system is already setup and in motion. You just have to monitor it and make adjustments every 15 minutes, half-hour, hour, or on data feeds. This occurs in a split second.

I signed up to a few forums including fluther because it’s a better alternative than staring at the same screen the entire time. Like this, I type a few paragraphs and the time goes by. I’m stuck here for at least 11–12 hours.

My job is awesome and requires broad knowledge. I learn something new every day.

Doesn’t pay very well though. Say la vee.

What do you do?

I’d like to preserve my intarnet anonymity so I won’t get specific, but basically I edit and write scientific articles for kids.

@CWOTUS Flooded year after year? Or, flooded every 20 or 50 years? I only ask because I was pretty annoyed when my midwest friends complained and acted superior about people who live in hurricane areas along the east coast when they get tornadoes and flooding themselves. Many of the farmers along the flood areas of the Mississippi know it will flood, and accept that as a tradeoff for the rich soil and cheap orice of the land. Every so often they miss a year of farming due to floods, but have excellent crops during other years. Some people live in flood areas because they are poor, and that is the land their family has owned for generations. In FL we live near the coast because it is a fantastic life. Most people on the coast have plenty of insurance, and pay the high premiums to be there.

[mod says] cog (returning troll) has left the building.

I knew it! :)

@cog You’re seeing the small picture. The fact is, we have millions of kids to teach every year, and we can NOT tailor the entire eduction system around each one.
Sorry you had to learn all that other crap, but there it is. Unless you can come up with a reasonable, realistic workable plan to fit your theory (you do know what a theory is,don’t you? It’s something you would have learned in one of your useless science class and DAMN! I just saw Auggie say he’s gone again! Lets go find out who he is now!)

He’s a troll. He’s gone. He’ll be back because he obviously needs a life.

I hear an echo!

I wonder if many of these trolls are the same person. Does anyone know who it is?

Echo!

We would tell you @PhiNotPi but then we’d have to [REDACTED]. Ain’t that right @jca!

@PhiNotPi This particular troll has been here at least 6 times, under different names. I’d say most of the trolls we get come back at least twice, often more than that. Sad, isn’t it?

That is actually somewhat depressing that we have a whole group of people who do nothing but troll Fluther. It’s like an anti-fan club of sorts.