Social Question

flo's avatar

Is wearing a hoodie worth a life?

Asked by flo (13313points) May 1st, 2012
195 responses
“Great Question” (2points)

Maybe Zimmerman could have shot him or someone else anyway, but is there any reason to wear something that hides one’s identity and thereby make it that much easier for a racist shooter?

Explain the expression “slave to fashion designers”?

Was Geraldo Rivera not right?

Observing members: 0
Composing members: 0

Answers

ninjacolin's avatar

Yes, technically, wearing a hoodie is worth dying for.

Consider the implications of your suggestion:
Since ANYTHING could upset ANY crazy person into killing you.. you may as well lock your door and stay inside forever.. right?

tom_g's avatar

Martin should have dressed in a suit, and maybe lightened his skin a bit. Or maybe he could have just carried a sign: “Don’t shoot me. Thanks”

Edit: Do I need to add the sarcasm tag here?

ragingloli's avatar

Risk is the price of freedom.

augustlan's avatar

Is wearing a hoodie worth taking a life?

jrpowell's avatar

I just wore one (hood up) when I went to the store. Wanna know why? I walked to the store and my ears were cold.

flo's avatar

It is not like we’re talking about an actual cause here. This is just weaing something that has a practical use for criminals. If I asked the question “What are the causes worth dying for?”, or “being fashion-wise trendy” another way of saying ”being a slave to fashion designers” would never make it, I guarantee you.

flo (13313points)“Great Answer” (0points)
augustlan's avatar

@flo Before this particular case happened, it would never have even crossed my mind that “hoodie” = “criminal”. It still doesn’t.

ninjacolin's avatar

@flo.. do you believe everyone who wears a hoodie should be shot?
do you believe every woman who wears a skirt should be raped?

listen: Everyone deserves to wear whatever they want and not got shot, raped, abused for it.

Response moderated (Unhelpful)
TexasDude's avatar

Wait, what?

Hoodies are comfortable and typically lighter than a bona fide coat. I don’t think the hoodie was the proverbial camel back-breaking straw when it came to Zimmerman shooting Trayvon. Also, what @ninjacolin initially said.

flo's avatar

Before the fashion designer (I forget his name) came up with it, it would never have occured to people to wear a hoodie, or torn jeans or whatever else you can think of.

Also there are hoodies that don’t hide your profile, maybe those are the ones you’re referring to.

flo (13313points)“Great Answer” (0points)
ninjacolin's avatar

so… some hoodies you deserve to be shot in and others you don’t?

TexasDude's avatar

I have no idea what’s going on.

flo's avatar

Such trivial thing as wearing this and that is what freedom is about? No, I think not.

flo (13313points)“Great Answer” (0points)
augustlan's avatar

What designer invented the hoodie? They’ve been around forever, and have been worn regularly at least since I was a teenager, 30 years ago. I’m not sure I understand where this is going, here…

ninjacolin's avatar

Well, @Fiddle_Playing_Creole_Bastard, @flo is about to provide a detailed list of hoodies that you wear if you’re feeling suicidal and others for casual wear.

flo's avatar

Explain the expression “slave to fashion designers”.

flo (13313points)“Great Answer” (0points)
Fly's avatar

I really don’t follow your question here. In no way is a hoodie mutually exclusive to criminals who are trying to (very poorly) hide their identity. The purposes of a hoodie are comfort, warmth, and one’s personal fashion sense, not a means to hide your face in case you decide to commit a spontaneous crime. Technically, I could shield my face with an umbrella if I committed a crime- does that mean the practical intent of the umbrella is completely null?

@flo So? Before the 20th century, it wouldn’t have even occurred to women to wear short dresses. Do some prostitutes wear short dresses? Sure. Does that mean that no women should wear short dresses just because some people use them for those purposes? Absolutely not, and nobody should ask them to! Nobody is going to scrutinize the size and shape of the hood of every hoodie, coat, or jacket that they ever consider purchasing just in case somebody might mistake them for a criminal trying to conceal their face.

Your argument makes absolutely no sense, and I have even less comprehension as to how you are trying to incorporate “being a slave for fashion” into this…trust me, wearing a hoodie has just as little to do with that as it does to being a criminal.

augustlan's avatar

Typically, ‘being a slave to fashion’ means spending a lot of money on fashionable items, regardless of whether they are actually worth the money. Hoodies are in no way connected to that idea.

SpatzieLover's avatar

I wear hoodies regularly. Most of the people I know and associate with wear hoodies. None of the people I know have ever been shot.

I do not understand the premise of this question.

Being a slave to fashion means that you feel like you must have every latest fashion trend, no matter the cost.

Response moderated (Unhelpful)
flo's avatar

Re. the women and the short skirts, and the rape, do you go out having your cash hanging out of your pocket just because you have the freedom to do it? No, I guarantee you you don’t.

flo (13313points)“Great Answer” (0points)
SpatzieLover's avatar

What do short skirts have to do with a boy getting shot for wearing a hoodie?

Fly's avatar

@flo Um, what? Am I mistaken, or did you just imply that women who wear short skirts are asking to be raped?

ninjacolin's avatar

I’m switch to @flo‘s side:

Yes, @Fly, women deserve to be raped if they’re wearing skirts.
And if you wear a hoodie you should be shot.

Only criminals and sex addicts wear hoodies and skirts, respectively.
Nobody else does. The Trayvon murder case is a clear example of why you shouldn’t wear “kill me” or “rape me” clothing if you aren’t really down.

That shit’s confusing!

flo's avatar

@Fly you don’t have your cash hanging out of your pocket? Why not? You do have the freedom to do it.

flo (13313points)“Great Answer” (0points)
Fly's avatar

@flo I’ll take that as a yes.

bkcunningham's avatar

When I lived in North Carolina about three years ago, I was exploring the area one day, driving around taking in the sights and getting lost. I was on an old tobacco road and there was a little store with iron bars on the windows and a sign on the door that said, “You must remove your hood before entering.” It took me a few minutes to realize what they meant.

flo's avatar

I’m saying why would wearing a hoodie have that much such importance?

@Fly t if you insist, but to me it is obvious that I don’t mean she should get raped, I was asking the question again.

flo (13313points)“Great Answer” (0points)
augustlan's avatar

@flo I think what most of us are saying is that we don’t equate hoodies to criminals. We wear them. It would never occur to me that someone might shoot me for it. I doubt, very highly, that the young man who was killed was making any kind of statement with his hoodie, you know?

bkcunningham's avatar

I doubt very seriously he was killed for wearing a hoodie, @flo.

tranquilsea's avatar

@bkcunningham You’re right. He was shot for being BLACK and wearing a hoodie.

flo's avatar

What are the causes worth dying for?

flo (13313points)“Great Answer” (0points)
SpatzieLover's avatar

thereby make it that much easier for a racist shooter?

@flo, a racist with a gun is a bad combination. Trayvon did nothing but walk down the wrong block at the wrong time. He wasn’t dying for a cause. He got killed because he was a black male teen.

Fly's avatar

@flo I think I speak for everyone when I say that we have pretty much no clue what you are trying to get at by this point.

Response moderated (Unhelpful)
ninjacolin's avatar

freedom is worth dying for, @flo.
@bkcunningham, that was dead on. He was killed for being black, nothing else.

Wearing a hood or not won’t protect people from idiot murderers.

bkcunningham's avatar

Umm, I didn’t say he was killed for being black. I don’t think Zimmerman has been tried yet. I’m not going to take the bait and get into it with a bunch of race baiters.

Hawaii_Jake's avatar

The OP asks, “Is there any reason to wear something that hides one’s identity and thereby make it that much easier for a racist shooter?”

That is blaming the victim. It is nothing else. This type of argument has been around since mankind could talk. It doesn’t matter what race anybody is in the case. Other examples are “If you hadn’t been in that bad neighborhood, you wouldn’t have been robbed,” or “If you hadn’t worn that skimpy dress, you wouldn’t have been raped.”

A boy is dead. That is the fact here.

JLeslie's avatar

Wearing a hoodie is not worth a life, but wearing a hoodie shouldn’t, and 99.999% of the time, does not get someone shot. You can argue that maybe people should realize a hood might attract suspicion in certain circumstances, I am with you sort of on that, we need to be prudent and aware of what makes us more vulnerable or attract a bad element. Short skirts, I just have a big problem with it, maybe bad attention from schmucks out there, but touch me? Same as getting shot because someone wears a hoodie. If Trayvon was suspicious because of how he was dressed, fine. But, being pursued and shot, that is just ridiculous and criminal. None of the negative attention is ok, I am not excusing it.

I saw a facebook thread started by a black fb friend of mine basically saying black people should know they are more suspect and need to behave and dress a certain way if they don’t want others to feel threatened. I think there is a little truth in it. A little reality, even if it isn’t fair. Reminds me of that famous Las Vegas chef who went from doing hard time to being a culinary master. He writes in his book when he left jail he let his muscles get smaller and changed how he walked to not seem to threatening to the business world.

@bkcunningham The NC example is interesting, I have never seen a sign saying that before.

@tranquilsea I think mostly he was shot because Zimmerman needs psychological help.

Response moderated (Off-Topic)
MilkyWay's avatar

Okay, I’m going to be honest here and say that I have no idea which guy got killed, and who killed him for whatever reason, but I just want to answer your question : Is wearing a hoodie worth a life?
My answer: What has hoodies got to do with life or death? Or murder? I’m in my mid teens, and I love wearing hoodies. They’re cool, comfortable and stylish. Most of my mates in school (and even my dad, for that matter) wear hoodies.
Saying that wearing a hoodie actually signifies something is like saying wearing sandals means something. Or wearing a jacket instead of a coat means something.
It doesn’t. You wear what you like, depending on your own personal style. Clothing should never have to mean anything, or worth anything.

majorrich's avatar

Maybe, just maybe, wearing a hoodie in a gated community where you aren’t supposed to be in, and that community having been hit several times in recent past with breakins. Walking behind the buildings in a suspicious manner and menacing an armed person might get a person shot. Add to that causing that person to somehow be on his back with a broken nose, I would say that probably would get anyone shot, black, white, yellow or brown.

chyna's avatar

@majorrich If I’m not mistaken, the kid lived in the gated community, was walking home after buying a candy bar, not sneaking behind buildings.

Nullo's avatar

You know, he wasn’t gunned down out of the blue. IIRC the shooting followed a struggle.
Also, you’re presupposing racism.

majorrich's avatar

I was kind of blending the real and worst possible case situations to get someone shot to answer the question. I don’t know all the facts about the Zimmerman case enough to argue them here. Kind of like Wearing a hoodie brandishing a ball bat in a gun shop might get you shot.

majorrich's avatar

A quick google, He did not live in that community, but his Father’s girlfriend did. He was visiting his father so was an unfamiliar face to the blockwatch people.

FutureMemory's avatar

@Fly I think I speak for everyone when I say that we have pretty much no clue what you are trying to get at by this point.

Yes, @Fly, you definitely speak for me.

RocketGuy's avatar

It’s hard to say what actually happened, since one of the two people involved died. All we can get now is the one side of the story. Did one guy grab the other? Who hit whom first? Did Zimmerman give a verbal warning that he had a gun? Was any inflammatory language used?

jrpowell's avatar

Zimmerman called the cops and they told him to stop following the kid. He didn’t.

Plucky's avatar

What? Wearing a hoodie shouldn’t give sudden and absolute permission for someone to shoot you dead. This is the same silly argument that many people use for rape (if a woman dresses provocatively, it’s her own fault she got raped ..yada yada). Give me a big fat juicy break.

I wear a hoodie often. Guess I should start hiding. Ugh.

rooeytoo's avatar

Is there anywhere one can find out the true facts about this incident? What we read in the paper or hear on the news is probably hearsay and/or made up. It is a hellish thing and I would like to know what really happened. I know there are racists in this world and perhaps I am naive but I find it hard to believe that someone is racist enough to shoot someone for just being in a certain place wearing a hoodie. It just seems there had to be more to it. If it turns out that the whole thing was simply racist then Zimmerman should get put up before a firing squad himself.

whitenoise's avatar

Wearing a hoodie isn’t worth anyone’s life. Nor is it – in any which way – an excuse to kill someone. The right to wear a hoodie my be worth a serious fight over though.

A hoodie is just a piece of clothing. It keeps you warm and it helps you express who you are. You should not be confronted with anyone just for wearing that.

Now someone may ask you to show your face in certain situations, such as entering a bank or small retail store. That is a different topic though.

If you use a hoodie to commit crimes, then you should be punished for doing so. If ever hoodies would be so synominous with crime that they are an emblem for crime then one may consider banning them. Like nazi uniforms or long white robes with pointy white face masks (KKK). Hoodies are nowhere near there, though, I feel.

whitenoise's avatar

Thinking a bit more about our question, I understand why you get so many people opposing even the question and mentioning rape.

Were I to read “Is wearing a short skirt worth a rape?”, then my initial reaction is that you seem to blame the victim.
However… also in that case I would answer that one should probably choose not to wear a short skirt.

I read your question as “Would you wear a hoodie, if it would get you shot?” or “Would you wear a short skirt if it would get you raped?”

In all honesty… I’m a man so I wouldn’t wear a skirt anyway (not even a kilt).

But… if I had a daughter I would not let her get out in a dangerous area in a mini skirt. Not because I think it would be her fault if she’d get raped. Just because I don’t want her to get raped.

Dog's avatar

First off, no matter what Geraldo says it is wrong. I am not going to bother to look this statement up because he talks far too much and I do not have the time to sift through his celebrity “opinion” to bother.

I am wearing a hoodie. I wore one yesterday too. I wore my hoodie at night with the hood up. Thankfully I am okay because I have kids to care for.

According to the premise of a hoodie being criminal wear- Monks have worn hoods for centuries. Maybe it is the long robes that make them immune from gunfire. Should we all get Monk hoods?

You cannot blame clothing as justification- a boy was simply murdered here. The police should have been left to do their job but this man was on a mission and, in my opinion, he blamed the hoodie because he knew that, had he voiced his assumption that the boy was a criminal due to his SKIN COLOR he would be executed.

Blame the hoodie, blame the gun, blame society and the victim, anything to avoid looking like a murderous racist.

Dog (25137points)“Great Answer” (7points)
JLeslie's avatar

@Brian1946 I don’t know the point you are making, but this was in FL, it was 70 some degrees outside.

@whitenoise Exactly. You wrote it more clearly than me. I don’t understand why so many people on this Q completely reject the idea or thought process. Like my SIL thinks I am ridiculous for worrying about driving our Porsche in bad sections of town. She feels like I should not let others control what I want to do. I just don’t want to get carjacked or followed or even just get unwanted attention.

@Dog I don’t think it is about justification.

Brian1946's avatar

@JLeslie

“I don’t know the point you are making, but this was in FL, it was 70 some degrees outside.”

I know that it happened in FL, and according to several quips in this thread, it was raining, which besides cold weather (hence the parka pictures) and a devotion to fashion, is another reason to wear a hoodie.

bkcunningham's avatar

You guys are manufacturing racism here. Zimmerman’s only mention of the hoodie is when he was asked a direct question from the 911 operator, “Did you see what he was wearing?”

Please guys, there is enough real racism in the world without producing more of it by having discussion void of the facts.

SpatzieLover's avatar

@bkcunningham I have heard the 911 call. I am not manufacturing racism.

bkcunningham's avatar

Post it for me would you please @SpatzieLover.

JLeslie's avatar

@Brian1946 Well, I lived in south FL and almost no one wore a hoodie that time of year where I lived. But, that doesn’t matter, I am appalled he was shot, I am appalled Zimmerman even followed him. Was Trayvon actually stopping behind houses looking inside? Or, just walking behind the houses? The reason I ask is because if it is raining, why isn’t he making a bee line to get where he is going? If I am in my house looking out the back and a young man in the rain is stopped and staring in my house, I find it a little odd, I want to know what he is up to? If there have been a rash of robberies, I might call security. I am not defending Zimmerman for one second, I am just asking if Trayvon was doing some unusual behavior and dressing outside of the norm, because of what the OP is asking.

My point was wearing a ski mask on the slopes is fine, wearing one in summer raises suspicion. This is not near that extreme, but your photos imply no one should ever evaluate what someone is wearing, even if it obscures someones face, but people do.

majorrich's avatar

I have seen people wearing puffy down coats here in Ohio in Summer. I guess some folks like to be warm. lol

Dog's avatar

I suppose that, unless we were present, none of us would know the whole story. Perhaps I am wrong in assuming this man was influenced by assumptions based on ethnicity. The point is that a young man is now dead and the police told the man to stop following him. What if the boy thought he was in danger and was seeking a place to hide? What if the boy attacked the gunman? What if… what if what if….

My point is that clothing does not a criminal make.

Dog (25137points)“Great Answer” (5points)
Michael_Huntington's avatar

As a hoodie wearing minority, I apologize for looking like a criminal and it’s my fault for not having enough money to buy a tie and a suit. Please accept my apologies.

majorrich's avatar

@Michael_Huntington LMAO! Most excellently done Michael! +1

Nullo's avatar

The OP sort of misrepresents the entire issue. Martin wasn’t shot for wearing a hoodie.

flo's avatar

Pick which answers are more thoughtful and balanced (not at all defensive, and emotional) here.

“Thankfully I am okay because I have kids to care for.” If someone sincierely felt threatened even without having a good reason to be, and they shot me dead, would wearing a hoodie that hides my profile, have been worth leaving my kids parentless? For me the answer is no.

flo (13313points)“Great Answer” (0points)
flo's avatar

I know from the 911 call Zimmerman followed him, when he was told not to by police, so I don’t mean Zimmerman sincierely felt threatened. I mean hypothetically, if someone misundentified someone, (let’s not even bring race into it) even if the chances are 1 out of a ton of people, it is still one life too many lost for no good reason.

flo (13313points)“Great Answer” (0points)
chyna's avatar

I still think you are making this Martin’s issue and not Zimmermans.
You are saying if he hadn’t worn a hoodie, he may still be alive. We will never know that.

flo's avatar

@chyna…Zimmerman followed him, when he was told not to by police, so I don’t mean Zimmerman sincierely felt threatened,” means I think that if he didn’t follow him he probably would have been alive.

flo (13313points)“Great Answer” (0points)
woodcutter's avatar

This queston isn’t about apparel choice at all. It is an attempt at trolling. Nobody knows what happened to Martin/ Zimmerman that day…nobody . Want to know how I know this? It’s simple…there has yet to be a trial to get to the bottom of it. Too much credence is being given to a 911 call because that is all we all have to go with. So there is a heavy grasping at straws to formulate an accurate depiction of the facts. The operator at the 911 asked for some information over the phone and one question was what is the guy wearing? That is one of the main questions that is always asked when giving a description of a possible perp. It would be good for a responding police unit to know this. And from that question some have extrapolated that it was some kind of attempt at stereotyping blacks. Really? Bobby Rush is a twerp with his trademark behavior in congress. Another attention whore at work.Everyone wears fleese hooded jackets. It’s not a “black thing”.They may not all have FUBU on them but chances are, they are all made in the same sweatshop in Bangledesh.

Remember, nobody knows what really happened quite yet, but I will add this: with just the evedence that has been made available to the media there has been some serious back pedling from at last one news org and there is a very good chance that Zimmerman will walk. I would not want to be out in the open in any large city being white after a verdict like that. Oh wait, thats right ,I meant to say hispanic. Did I make the right distiction there or will it really matter if that happens?

Nullo's avatar

@woodcutter The race mongers felt that it would be profitable to play this up as a racially-motivated white-on-black crime (instead of a simple case of bad judgment). Helps to solidify their power. Drives the wedge in deeper, but they don’t much seem to care about that.

Brian1946's avatar

@JLeslie

“Well, I lived in south FL and almost no one wore a hoodie that time of year where I lived. But, that doesn’t matter….
My point was wearing a ski mask on the slopes is fine, wearing one in summer raises suspicion. This is not near that extreme, but your photos imply no one should ever evaluate what someone is wearing, even if it obscures someones face, but people do.”

I agree- it doesn’t matter.

None of those photos were of ski masks, so my implication would not include wearing a ski mask, hence neither would my implication be that no one should ever evaluate what someone is wearing, because on some occasions people do wear ski masks for suspect reasons.

My point was that lots of people wear hoodies during inclement weather, including those who live in colder climates during the winter. I’d say that most of them do that not because they’re slaves of fashion, but because they want to stay dry and/or warm.

JLeslie's avatar

@Brian1946 I know we are basically agreeing, but in south FL a kid with his hood up is just very rare on a warm day. Hooded sweatshirts, baggy pants, or pants down their ass with underwear poking out was the dress of a less desireable element, or of younger people who were slaves to fashion among their group, not usually about the weather. I don’t know what time of day it was, it might have been cooling off already if it was late in the evening. Look, my husband could easily be a minority with his hood up, so this sort of shit scares me. Some idiot who seems to have an obsession with pursuing who he thinks is a bad gay like a vigilante. I truly believe if the police had been the ones to confront Trayvon, if indeed he did seem suspicious, and I would say clothes alone does not cut it, it would have to be combined with behavior, but if he was suspicious, and if the cops had answered the call, I believe he would be alive today.

I have said on other Q’s, when I worked in retail in south Florida, if guys walked in in baggy clothes, we called security to watch them, especially if they were in groups of two or more, and if they seemed a little hyped up and not shopping close together. Most of the time it was black guys, not always. We called no matter what color they were, but black teens were more likely to dress like that, as a fashion thing. How they were dressed triggered our suspicion, not their race.

The photos you supplied are not of hoodies. Jackets and coats the hood tends to stand up more on someone’s head. Hoodies rest lower, obscure the face more, and if the string is pulled around the head, or if the jacket is closed, the face is even more hidden. I wear hoodies all the time, I have 6 of them in my closet I think, so I certainly don’t want a man with a gun hating people with hoodies.

flutherother's avatar

We have lots of hoodies over here and no guns and things are mostly peaceful.

Brian1946's avatar

@JLeslie

I was referring only to the action of wearing a hoodie, which is not necessarily accompanied by the other style choices or behaviors that you mentioned.

Perhaps some people wear hoodies because they’re slaves to fashion, but lots of people including me, wear them as a hands-free way of staying dry during wet weather or warm during cold weather.
Sure, some people are slaves to fashion, but that slavishness includes other apparel in addition to hoodies, so the issue is being a fashion slave, not wearing a hoodie.

I think Zimmerman became suspicious of Martin because there had been numerous crimes committed in his neighborhoodie neighborhood and he didn’t recognize Martin, so he probably would have been suspicious even if Martin wasn’t wearing a hoodie.

I have yet to encounter any reports about someone being shot just because they were wearing a hoodie, but I realize that doesn’t mean it’s never happened.
I’ve been occasionally wearing hoodies since 1978, and I’ve never encountered any hassles because of that.
I’d say the odds of me being mistaken for a criminal only because I was wearing one are so low here in Los Angeles, that the comfort and convenience they provide far outweigh any probability-weighted danger for me.

Some of those photos were of hoodies, and some of them were of hooded parkas that obscured the wearer’s face even more than some hoodies.
Anyway, it was just a broad attempt at humor on my part, as I indicated by the ”;)” at the end of that quip. Also, contrary to what I implied in that linked statement, I don’t really think that all hooded parkas are Canadian versions of hoodies.

JLeslie's avatar

@Brian1946 That is a good point that I have not heard anyone assert before. Probably Zimmerman would have been suspicious because of the robberies even without the hoodie. Possibly true. But, I would assume his race plays into that, only in the sense that if the neighnorhood does not have many or any black people, he stands out as not living there. I don’t know the racial mix of the neighborhood.

One thing people do not realize about south FL, they almost never, especially men, wear outerwear. Even when the temperature goes down to 40, they are reluctant to turn on the heat in their house, and never wear a coat. At 40 they would put on something like a hoodie, or a leather jacket, and yes it is possible Trayvon wore his jacket for the rain, might have been fashion, doesn’t matter in the end. South Florida is not like California and other states. The people are not used to layering up, because cold snaps are so short lived. In Cali it is cool almost every night. Most department stores do not sell coats at all, maybe one or two styles per season in with a specific vendor, but no coat section. Almost impossible to sell a turtle neck shirt. They do sell sweaters though and zip sweatshirts, but not tons of them, and a lot are sold to tourists who came to FL in January and thought it would be all bikini weather and got surprised by the dip to 40 degrees while on vacation.

I hope Zimmerman at minimum has to get court ordered psychologocal help of some sort. It seems to me he should be in jail, but I will go with the idea I don’t have ll the information pertaining to the case, just what the media has reported.

bkcunningham's avatar

@JLeslie, Sanford, FL, where this happened, is not in South Florida. It is in Central Florida.

JLeslie's avatar

@bkcunningham Oh, I thought it was near Miami. Thanks. Yeah, Sanford is a completely different story. I don’t know how I got that wrong? Someone must have said Miami, and I went with it. No one has corrected me on any other Q.

bkcunningham's avatar

You may have thought Miami because Trayvon Martin was from Miami Gardens, near Miami. His father’s girlfriend lives in Sanford. Trayvon was suspended from school and was staying with his father’s girlfriend in Sanford at the time of the shooting. Trayvon was a junior at Dr. Michael M. Krop Senior High School, which is part of the Miami-Dade public school system.

JLeslie's avatar

@bkcunningham That has to be it.

majorrich's avatar

Aah, so he isn’t the complete baptismaly innocent angel we are being led to believe. Takes a lot to get suspended anymore. Hmmmmmm. (insert troll face here) LOL

chyna's avatar

Zimmerman isn’t the innocent neighborhood watch patrol either Zimmerman’s criminal record.

bkcunningham's avatar

Zimmerman’s prior charges were discussed in depth at his bond hearing, @chyna.

SpatzieLover's avatar

Zimmerman’s former MySpace has resurfaced. Here’s a better copy with some of his worst public statements highlighted.

bkcunningham's avatar

@SpatzieLover, I never did see where you posted the 911 call showing the hoodie remark EDIT or anything Zimmerman said on the call, to be racially motivated.

SpatzieLover's avatar

You can go to CNN or any other news source. It’s everywhere online. You can read the transcripts, too.

bkcunningham's avatar

I have read them. Like I previously said, ’ “Zimmerman’s only mention of the hoodie is when he was asked a direct question from the 911 operator, “Did you see what he was wearing?” ’

SpatzieLover's avatar

As far as I’m concerned he racially profiled during the entire 911 call. Never did he stop to say “Hey kid, I’m on the Neighboorhood Watch. Do you live here or are you visiting someone?”

As a property manager, I stop kids/teens all the time and talk to them about what their plans are. I’ve never called 911 first, and have never avoided conversation. We have kids that don’t belong on one particular PRIVATE property all the time. They jump the fence to use the pool. Do I call 911? no. I talk to the kids. Yep, some of them are black or non-white, too.

DominicX's avatar

Don’t forget he also supposedly said “fucking coons” on the 911 call…

SpatzieLover's avatar

Yep. I heard that one on CNN @DominicX

bkcunningham's avatar

Never let the facts get in the way of a good story.

JLeslie's avatar

@SpatzieLover I made a similar point in another discussion. Even if he was a theif, just talking to him would discourage him, because now he knows people are around, can identify him, we do the same at the store, approach everyone, say hello. That is why I think even if the cops were called if they had approached him there is no way he would be dead. Either he was an innocent kid just walking around, and when an officer approached he just would have answered some questions, or if he was up to no good he might have bolted. I just cannot understand how he could wind up dead? Unless Zimmerman did something to antagonize him, it’s the only thing that makes sense to me.

rooeytoo's avatar

Or maybe he did something to antagonize Zimmerman. I am not in any way implying that Zimmerman is innocent or was justified, I am just saying.

flo's avatar

When we hear the advice to secure our homes for eg., should we hear the implication that if we don’t, the robbers would be justified, is that it? Is that what I should take from a lot of the answers?

flo (13313points)“Great Answer” (0points)
bkcunningham's avatar

@flo, I think my mind works differently than most people’s and it is hard for me to express my thought process and get my point across. But, seriously, you make surpass me. lol I can’t follow that thinking at all.

flo's avatar

@bkcunningham I don’t think I can put it another way.

flo (13313points)“Great Answer” (0points)
flo's avatar

@bkcunningham…but your reponses aren’t one of the ones I’m referring to, because you haven’t answered whether wearing this or that item of clothing is that important to you.

flo (13313points)“Great Answer” (0points)
Fly's avatar

@flo Your responses are effectively incoherent at this point, and I cannot comprehend how you somehow came to this conclusion based on these answers, but I will attempt to answer it nonetheless.

Not in the least. Does it make you stupid or naive? Sure. But does it mean that the robbery is justified? Absolutely not, and I don’t see anybody here suggesting anything like that. They’re still robbers, they still committed a deplorable crime, and they will still be punished justly under the law.

bkcunningham's avatar

Oh, I’m sorry @flo. I’m not a slave to any sort of fashion or style. To be honest, the only item of clothing that I buy on a regular basis is a swimsuit. I swim so much the clorine eats up the elastic. It takes me a long time to pick out the right suit. That is my one piece of clothing vanity. I don’t want my fat hanging out. I really have to be forced to buy any other clothes.

flo's avatar

@Fly I was poiting out the flaw in the logic of the majority of the answers bringing up rape and women dressing up this way or that ..,.they are the same ones that are too defensive.

flo (13313points)“Great Answer” (0points)
Fly's avatar

@flo Then you have completely missed the point of everything that said people have brought up, myself included. (And, you seem to forget that you were the one who brought up rape.) In fact, everyone has said the exact opposite of this supposed “flaw,” and have actually been telling you that your theories here have been assuming this very flaw that you are trying to place on the logic of others. Even those who have said that wearing the hoodie could be considered suspicious have not in the least suggested that the crime is justified. Your newest question is almost completely disconnected from your original question, and I cannot understand how you have somehow gotten so far from the reality. How can we possibly be more clear than we have been in the responses we have given?

You have confused everyone with your questions and responses, and you have gotten away from your own question. Who is the one with the flawed logic?

JLeslie's avatar

I think @flo was saying with her lock your doors example that it never is justified for a robber to rob your house, but that does not mean you leave your doors unlocked because the bad guys should not be bad. Her analogy makes sense to me.

bkcunningham's avatar

It would make more sense to me, @flo, if you asked, NOT that the robbers should be justified, but if you left your doors unlocked, then you got what you deserved. Am I even close to understanding?

Fly's avatar

@JLeslie If that is what she was trying to say, she certainly did not get the point across, so kudos to you for somehow deciphering that. However, what I have said remains true; it still has nothing to do with what anyone in this thread has suggested (especially regarding the parallels that people have drawn to other clothing) and it points out no flaws in any arguments other than her own.

SpatzieLover's avatar

Locks are for honest people. Hoodies are for what then?

ninjacolin's avatar

@flo, make a statement please. You’re asking questions that no one understands.
Make a statement or argument like this:

“My name is flo and I believe people who wear hoodies should be shot.”

majorrich's avatar

Hoodies are for keeping your head warm. lol. And target practice…

majorrich's avatar

Can we design hoodies that come up pointy for white racist types? XD

Nullo's avatar

@flo One should be able to wear what they like (with the possible exception of Speedos) without fear of being attacked. That is how things ought to be.
But in this world, a lot of things that ought to be are not, and a lot of things that shouldn’t be are. Which is where our judgment comes into play. Which is why you should stay out of the bad part of town and generally try not to draw negative attention.

cazzie's avatar

I think we are missing a marketing opportunity. Let’s make a ‘range’ of hoodies, with targets printed on them in really bright colours.

Nullo's avatar

@cazzie I’d buy one. XD

flo's avatar

Let me correct myself: it is not the ”the majority of the answers who brought up rape and women dressing up this way or that,”

@Fly re.”(And, you seem to forget that you were the one who brought up rape.)”
Is this what you mean?

Permalink“When we hear the advice“_ and “should we hear the implication” are the key phrases, which you say @JLeslie “somehow deciphered”. You make it sound like a puzzle, or that @JLeslie has the power of reading minds or something.

Permalink
Again, which answers are thoughful and balanced, not at all defensive and emotional? Which answers don’t leave the impression that I’m asking if hoodies should be banned?

@bkcunningham did you read @JLeslie‘s post just before yours?

flo (13313points)“Great Answer” (0points)
cazzie's avatar

Wearing a hooded jacket, with the hood pulled up should NOT get you shot. Not being able to clearly see my face in what I am wearing does not give anyone the right to shoot me.

Geraldo Rivera was NOT right saying that kids who run around in hoodies shouldn’t be surprised if they get shot.

Again, @flo , your incoherence makes it difficult to understand your logic.

JLeslie's avatar

I don’t get it. @flo is not saying wearing a hoodie is a reason to shoot someone. She is saying it might trigger a bad response from some idiotic people, who unfortuneately exist in the world, who stereotype the clothing and are crazy, sometimes even violent. The violence or suspicion might happen a very very small percentage of the time, so we as indivuals decide, do we take the risk or not if we are informed of the risk. it doesn’t make the violence right or excusable, but it still happened, and no one wants to be a victim of violence. Statisticly it is going to be very unlikely to get shot dead because you wear a hoodie, so people are still going to go around wearing them I am sure, but in some corners of the country some people might think you look like a hoodlum with one on.

It’s like my SIL who drives like a maniac sometimes and doesn’t give a shit if it causes an accident, if the accident is not her “fault.” Well, if she is dead or has a serious permanent injury from the accident, does it matter the other driver was cited for the accident?

I am pretty sure Geraldo retracted what he said.

flo's avatar

@JLeslie you said it. You make it look easy.

flo (13313points)“Great Answer” (0points)
ninjacolin's avatar

@flo, you might enjoy this article which discusses the problem with society teaching the lesson “Don’t get raped” and the difference it could have if society taught: “Don’t rape.”

Excerpt: “Rather than a society that teaches “Don’t Rape,” we have a society that teaches “Don’t Rape But She Was Pretty Drunk and She Didn’t Explicitly Say No and Look At What She Was Wearing.” This is problematic, because what we really want is a society where “Don’t Rape” means “Don’t Rape, Don’t Assault, Don’t Harass, Don’t Intimidate, Don’t Abuse, Don’t Take Advantage of a Situation, Whether You’re Male, Female or Anything In Between.”

I’m finding a parallel to the lesson you seem to be suggesting here in this question:

“don’t dress to attract violence” rather than “don’t be violent.”

And to directly answer your original question a second time: I expect society stands a greater chance of improving as a whole by teaching the latter lesson (“don’t be violent” as well as “don’t prejudice” as well as “don’t be racist”) than by teaching the former.

In fact, both the by standers and the hooded person stand to benefit from the lessons of non-violence. A) The by standers won’t be attacked by hooded people who have learned non-violence and B) The hooded people won’t be attacked by by standers who have learned non-violence.

This is the best outcome I can imagine for a community.

Nullo's avatar

I was musing about this earlier today. Would the Stand Your Ground law (the collateral damage being raked over the coals as part of an anti-gun agenda someplace) even come into play here? It’s written to protect defensive firearm use, and by all accounts, Zimmerman was the initial aggressor. Heck, he was patrolling. That’s practically a summation of “looking for trouble.”

JLeslie's avatar

@Nullo Seriously, I think if anything probably Trayvon had the right to stand his ground.

@ninjacolin I could not agree more that teaching don’t rape and don’t be violent is the lesson we should seek in our society. However there are all sorts of f$&ked up people in our society who somehow miss the lesson, or miss internalizing it.

I was watching the show In Plain Sight the other day, not sure if you watch it, and the main character Mary, she is a US Marshal, scolded her client in witness protection for going out back behind the restaurant she was working at to have a smoke with some guy. The guy came onto her, which she did not want at all, and it got out of hand, she had to fight him off. Mary told her, “you gotta know nothing good is going to happen behind a restaurant with some guy.” Something like that. She then warned her not to do something so stupid again. So, yes, the girl was scolded for putting herself in a bad situation, because Mary felt it was a little predictable the man might be a criminal (I find that behavior criminal). Not that it is the girls fault the guy made a move on her, it is not about her beng ay fault. The guy was arrested of course, but so what, she still went through a horrible situation and was beaten a little too. It’s just a TV show, but it demonstrates how people see these things.

ragingloli's avatar

“Seriously, I think if anything probably Trayvon had the right to stand his ground.”
That is what he probably did. And what got him shot.

woodcutter's avatar

@Nullo Heh. When it comes to the gun control elitists, it would be a crime by itself to allow a good tragedy to go to waste. Hells yeah they are jumping on this one hard. Kill all the white people you want. Nobody will even look up from what they are doing. Kill a black guy and it becomes a national tragedy.

whitenoise's avatar

Wow @woodcutter… where does that come from?

Nullo's avatar

@whitenoise Years of abuse at the hands of the anti-gun crowd, and an apparent double standard, most likely.
Let’s not forget that the shooting was escalation, not primary motivation. It ended with a gun, but did not start with it.

majorrich's avatar

Obviously the USA. Studies have shown that nearly 100% of all fatal shootings have been perpetrated by people wearing SHOES! We should enact legislation to ban or control shoes!

whitenoise's avatar

@Nullo I was more referring to
“Kill all the white people you want. Nobody will even look up from what they are doing.”

woodcutter's avatar

@whitenoise The same exact thing happened in Fla. where the black guy came out of his house, where he was in no danger at all, and approached the white guy to start an argument with him. And when that argument wasn’t working out like the brotha had hoped he killed the guy with a gun he had. The fact you have no recollection of this seems to prove my point now doesn’t it.

whitenoise's avatar

@woodcutter
I am Dutch living in the Middle East, so most things in the US pass by me. Sorry. :-)

The US are very dear to me though, having been there over thirty times. (I’m typing this, while I am in Miami!) I travel a lot, spending about thirty percent of my time traveling.
I am therefore somewhat aware, still, of US live.

majorrich's avatar

Zimmerman is actually Latino. He just sounds ultra-white with a Jewish sounding name. His mother is from Peru. I found that humorous as most everybody insists he is white.

woodcutter's avatar

@whitenoise I guess my point is, where was the great Reverend Al Sharpton when this war veteran was gunned down with a bullet through his heart? The guy just up and shot him dead in front of his daughter. In my opinion you can’t purposely set up a situation by going way out of your way knowing you are carrying the ultimate trump card so you can legally kill someone. That is what happened here. If that black man had no gun, he would have never went outside his home to argue about a kid skating on a basketball court.. There was no neighborhood watch situation. http://ac360.blogs.cnn.com/2012/03/21/tonight-on-ac360-florida-shooter-claims-stand-your-ground-defense/ Knowing the Reverend Sharpton, he was jumping for joy when he learned of this.

whitenoise's avatar

@woodcutter “If that black man had no gun, he would have never went outside his home to argue about a kid skating on a basketball court.”

So you are in favor of stricter gun control? Now I’m confused.

JLeslie's avatar

@woodcutter Kill all the white people you want. WTF kind of crazy talk is that? If anything black victims of murders are ignored more often. My reaction is the same as @whitenoise, it seems you are in favor of gun control. The media latches on to some stories, and that is what we hear about nationally or internationally. There are guns waved more often then you would guess here in Memphis schools, I don’t think the national media picks up on it every time it happens.

@majorrich You might want to look at some answers above, but I will say it again, you can be white and Latino. Latin America is a place, not a race.

woodcutter's avatar

@Leslie No not in favor of that. Getting back to when the same situation goes down, the death of a white person gets almost no airplay. I’m sure it is in the hands of the mainstream media here. Too much perceived outrage over the murder of whites is too easily perceived as racist by enough to make doing it risky enough to effect ratings in a negative way. What other explanation is there? No one is going to dare to push the issue in favor of political correctness.

JLeslie's avatar

@woodcutter Sorry, I thnk that is total bullshit. I completely disagree. Black men are made out to be the scary villains all over our media. I am not saying it is made up crime, I am only saying crimes committed by black men are most certainly reported in the news whether it is against white people or black people.

woodcutter's avatar

@majorrich Well it is less dramatic if the shooter is Latino and better news wise to not split hairs and simply call Zimmerman a white guy to KISS. As if it should really matter what race the shooter actually is. It should be a non issue but it is surprising how much it does matter. Had it been a black shooter as it most often is, would this be that big of a story?

JLeslie's avatar

@woodcutter Which proves the point black on black crime is reported less.

woodcutter's avatar

@JLeslieBlack men are made out to be the scary villains all over our media.” How do you think they are getting away with that blasphemy? Could it possibly be that that is generally the case? I’m discussing the utilization of stand your ground law that this thread seems to be about. same kind of shooting different dead people but the Travon case gets beat into the ground but the David James killing gets buried almost over night. No national outrage. Why is that?

Dutchess_III's avatar

It was raining. He put the hood up to keep the rain off of his face not to “hide_ his identity.

I think anyone who carries an umbrella deserves to be shot, especially if they put it up for some reason.

bkcunningham's avatar

What about Channon Christian and Christopher Newsom case out of Knoxville? Shameful.

flo's avatar

This conversation has gotten away from the OP

@JLeslie said ”Not that it is the girls fault the guy made a move on her, it is not about her beng ay fault. The guy was arrested of course, but so what, she still went through a horrible situation and was beaten a little too words ”
matches the OP.

flo (13313points)“Great Answer” (0points)
JLeslie's avatar

@woodcutter Some things get media traction, what can I tell you. There are legitimate stats that missing black children don’t get covered well in the media, but pretty white blond children do. I really think if we did a statistical analysis black people are overlooked more than white as victims of crimes. Minorities have people out there making loud noises like Jackson and Sharpton, bevause generally black people are overlooked all too often. I am not saying I always agree with Sharpton and Jackson, how they go about things or their viewpoints, only saying I understand why minorities feel the need tohave more of a voice. I really completely disagree with your assertion.

majorrich's avatar

@JLeslie LMAO! so you are telling me we have a problem with white people pouring across our southern border?! I was born and raised in Okinawa. Are you telling me I am white because it is just a place? I then submit to you that this whole incident, by your own word is a white on white crime. Or is it that the only races that count in your book are Black and White and Indigenous Americans (who are probably Asian) the Ainu (genetically different than most Japanese) are all Caucasians in your book.

DominicX's avatar

@majorrich I don’t think you’re understanding the point. The point is that white refers to “Caucasian/European”. If you’re Caucasian/European in appearance and descent, but grew up in Uruguay and speak Spanish, you may identify as “white” or “Latino”. Because technically both would be correct. White and Latino refer to different types of categories. White often refers to physical race (which may be a problematic classification in the first place), while Latino refers to an ethnic identity, associated with location, language, etc. It isn’t just about skin tone and such. They are not interchangeable.

For example, I am of Russian descent, but if I grew up in Japan, I would describe myself as “Japanese” because I would speak it, I would be from the country, but I wouldn’t refer to myself as “Asian” because that denotes a race, and that would not be my physical race.

majorrich's avatar

But Peru isn’t in Europe. While there probably is a great deal of interbreeding with Spanish, Portugese and any other European power that has occupied them, how does that fit the model? I am trying to understand the distinction. When I was in the Army, I had a checkbox labeled ‘Latino/Hispanic’ and I used that box a lot. I may have mislabeled a bunch of white guys! XD

majorrich's avatar

Eventually I suspect we will all be ‘beige’..

JLeslie's avatar

@majorrich I assume you are Asian because you are, that is if you are. Even if you were born in Mexico you would be Asian. Then if you moved to America you would be Asian and Mexican being Latin American is being from the geographical area of Latin America. Race is typically, by classic definitions, either Asian, Caucasian or black/negro, the rest is nationality or continent. My husband is Latin American, his national background is Israeli, Spanish and French. So he is a white Latin American. My blond, white barbie doll looking neighbor was African American, so is Charleze Theron for that matter. Being from a country or continent does not equal race.

If you ask me how people are grouped in America, sure there is white, black, Hispanic, Asian, Native American, etc. How people are grouped is not the same as race. Even on our census Hispanics are asked to name what race they are.

Another confusing example is people from the middle east are typically classified as white, but they are from the Asian continent, and some might see them as not caucasian, but some other “race” and use the term middle eastern as a race designation, but it really isn’t technically.

majorrich's avatar

It is never simple is it… I googled the subject and am now more confused than ever. I signed away my Japanese citizenship when I went into the Army. I betcha now half of Texas has an identity crisis :)

JLeslie's avatar

@majorrich Think of this, most Americans think of Mexicans as being “Native to the Americas.” Do you think my Mexican husband is the same race as the Mexicans who are mostly Indian/indigenous? His last name is Middle Eastern Jewish, and he does not have any native American blood. There are Russian Jews in Mexico, are they Latin American? hispanic? They are Jewish just like me here in America, just their relatives went to Mexico and mine came here, a little more north. All of us Russian Jews are caucasian.

majorrich's avatar

I’m all for having one check box ‘American’ on all those Govt forms. Much more simple.

bkcunningham's avatar

I think of Mexicans as being native to Mexico.

JLeslie's avatar

@bkcunningham Native? As in indigenous? Like our Native Americans in America?

bkcunningham's avatar

When I say it or think of it, @JLeslie, I just mean in the here and now. Like if I meet someone and ask them where they are from and they say they are born in New Jersey. I think they are native to Jersey in the United States. I really don’t understand what you mean when you say “most Americans think of Mexicans as being “Native to the Americas” unless you are saying that Mexico is part of the North American continent. I’ve met people who, when asked where are you from, will say they are native to California but they’ve lived all over the world.

JLeslie's avatar

@bkcunningham I meant most people in the US picture Mexicans being darkish skinned, dark hair and what we used to call Indian in America. When I say native to the Americas, I mean native, like our Native Americans/Indians, and I mean all of the Americas, the continent(s). I understand your point, I would use Native New Yorker, or Native Californian as meaning anyone born in one of those states, so it is confusing, which is why I asked you to clarify. I would not say my husband is a Native Mexican, bevause that sounds like Native American to me, and that misrepresents him I think. I would not use that term, but maybe it is used? He is born and raised in Mexico, and is Mexican, just like I am American born and raised. But, back to the stereotype of Mexicans, my husband has had people at his job who are confused that he is Jewish and Mexican. That have an idea of what a Mexican person is, they don’t think of Mexico as being a country like America, they think of it as an ethnicity or race or something?

augustlan's avatar

@woodcutter The reason the Zimmerman case got so much attention is because he wasn’t arrested when it happened. Was the black guy who shot the white guy arrested at the time? My money is on “yes”.

Nullo's avatar

@JLeslie I tend to think of myself as a native American of European ancestry.

@augustlan It hit the right set of ears, so it was made much of. Since those ears were attached to an echo chamber, it got quite loud and flavored by the chamber’s biases.

augustlan's avatar

@Nullo The only reason it hit the “right set of ears” is because the parents of the victim made a huge stink (and rightly so) over the fact that their son’s killer had not been arrested.

JLeslie's avatar

@Nullo Really? You have used that description before? I am a native American of European ancestry.

I think @augustlan has a legitimate questions about the two cases. Was the perpertrator arrested on the other case? And, sometimes the family does not want it in the media, and the whole media circus. Sure at times the media takes hold of a story no matter what the person wants, but the Zimmerman case was pushed into the media.

tranquilsea's avatar

The reason the Zimmerman case got so much attention is because he wasn’t arrested when it happened. Was the black guy who shot the white guy arrested at the time? My money is on “yes”.

@augustlan you beat me to that point. This was the point that angered me. Any time I hear about a homicide that is shoddily investigated and the net result is no charges are laid I get really irritated.

majorrich's avatar

It’s either a botched job, or there was sufficient evidence we haven’t seen yet that corroborated his self-defense story. That’s why I am reserving judgement until the trial and we get access to more information. As for now, with what information we have, it’s kind of a stalemate. Epic failures on both sides. Sure I stir the pot a bit, but in reality I don’t know who is at fault yet and won’t cast stones until all the evidence is out there.

whitenoise's avatar

@majorrich You shouldn’t cast stones anyway, I suggest. :-)

majorrich's avatar

lol we’re all a little guilty of that I guess. I do sometimes like to push buttons. :D

Nullo's avatar

@augustlan And that’s how news media works.

@JLeslie That’s how I tend to think of myself. There’s seldom an appropriate check box on forms.

JLeslie's avatar

@Nullo It just surprises me because that is not a term I have ever heard used for someone of your national background in America since Native American means the Indians before the Europeans arrived here for most people, and as defined in the dictionaries. Do you know anyone else who uses the term for people who are not indigenous to the Americas? Don’t take offense to this, but is that some sort of term Christians are using? I only ask because of the other terms Christians define differently like cult and submissive, and I gather you are around the evangelical Christians from your answers in general on q’s. I don’t really disagree that you are a native in the sense you were born here, but it isn’t the common usage. Just like semitic technically means Arabs and Jews, but antisemitic is understood as referring to Jews only.

flo's avatar

@augustlan I wonder if a question can be created by anyone so the answers after this permalink can be treansfered there? instead of flagging them for “off topic” etc
I don’t flag answers even if they are vile (I think I might have done it once or twice when I joined)

flo (13313points)“Great Answer” (0points)
Bellatrix's avatar

[Mod says…] @flo, this was posted in Social so people can go off topic if they want to. We won’t remove them unless they breach the site guidelines in some other way.

flo's avatar

@Bellatrix I see.

flo (13313points)“Great Answer” (0points)
Nullo's avatar

@JLeslie It’s just me being difficult with regards to PC language, really. Rather like how I nearly entered my skin color in hexadecimal when filling out the “ethnicity” parts of the forms for jury duty. I feel that it is wrong to make serious decisions based on a person’s race. Is this a sentiment that we share?

JLeslie's avatar

@Nullo I am against requiring a declaration of race on any forms before being chosen for something. I would like race to not be a factor at all in America, but I am ok when the government, social scientists, or business asks questions about race after the fact for research and marketing purposes. Did the jury duty form require you to fill the field? Many times questions about race are optional.

Nullo's avatar

@JLeslie I don’t recall if they were optional or not. It was enough that they had been included, anyway.

woodcutter's avatar

@JLeslie Black on black killings are reported less because the actors in the events are usually the typical ner do wells killing other ner do wells that nobody gives a crap about. I mean, if a black gang banger caps another rival black gang banger you will loose only slightly more sleep than I will….which would be none. It’s all good. People like that will never amount to shit unless terrorizing neighborhoods counts as something useful. The odd thing is, that even the deaths of these human waste products seem to get on the overall lists of gun violence despite of the good that was caused by their demise. It’s a big numbers game to whip up hysteria. A murdering little shit 17 year old crip that runs out of luck one day, as he should, gets on the list of children killed by gun violence only because he didn’t make it to his 18th bday. The kind of people killed makes a difference but it is politically prudent to lump them all in as poor victims to fluff the numbers. If we could ignore those who were associated with criminal activity as they went down I think the numbers would be low enough to make it almost silly to bitch about.

I don’t plan to stop wearing what people call hoodies just because some think they are some kind of trademark owned by black people. Be responsible for your own safety and do what I do….don’t go where you don’t have a damn good reason to be. Be brave and foolish and stray into areas you know you will stand out in just to say you did it. If you go out in the world looking for trouble you might just find it. It isn’t worth it. Just because the law says you can go where you want doesn’t mean you should.

augustlan's avatar

@woodcutter It sounds an awful lot like you’re equating black people with criminals. Are you aware of how what you wrote sounds?

woodcutter's avatar

@augustlan I’m aware of what liberals are bound to take away from what I put there. You have to admit, it’s all true right there. It just isn’t very politically correct at all. Some feel they need to tread lightly to stay out of the heat. I’m fireproof so it’s easier for me. I know that is what it will take to be in the big club, but that was never my aim anyway.I do a lot of reading about gun crime stats. I’m not clever enough to pull that out of my butt. Nobody cares when bad people do each other in. They choose to live by the sword. I have no respect for these people. I don’t care what they look like. The regular people have to make way too much of an effort just to stay safe because of these people that we would otherwise not need to. Saying the majority of gun deaths is black on black is not being racist. It is what it is, so in order to not attract the ire of the eggshell walkers it should never be brought up? Who the hell wants to live that way?

augustlan's avatar

@woodcutter That’s not the part I’m talking about. Statistics are statistics.

What I was talking about was the part where you assume that A) gang killings are black on black (as if no people of other colors are ever in gangs) and B) talk about the hoodie as a trademark of black people. Prior to that, we were talking about hoodies possibly being associated with criminals, not black people. Do you see what I mean?

woodcutter's avatar

Gang killing s are pretty much that, B on B or Hispanic on black or black on Hispanic or any other combo you can come up with using these two groups. Sure there are Asians and whites in the crime racket but the majority is the first two groups.I think you should know me well enough by now that it wasn’t what I was implying. and that is part of my point….If someone is going to even think about parading the facts out there it seems to be a rule that there is ABSOLUTE perfection with regards to the splitting hairs trying to draw someone off point. Its an old and proven tactic….make the person start feeling they need to defend themselves, because it has become politically acceptable only for those of the group involved to speak freely about such things but others are out of line doing the same thing. It may not play out favorably with the left and it definitely isn’t something for these groups to be proud of but it’s true none the less and to make an issue about daring to site these facts shouldn’t be discouraged because it will draw the race baiter crowd

flo's avatar

It is not only some areas of town people can be misundentified.

What about the law-abiding part of the population who lives in the a not so safe areas, but they can’t get out just because they’re too poor? (ADDED: And ) the ones who may be drawn into crime just because they don’t feel like they have a choice or don’t have a choice if they are approached and outnumbered by gangs?

What about the part of the larger population (social workers just to mention one of many) that needs to go to the areas for legitimate reasons? How can everybody just stay away from there.

So, the absolute need to wear this profile hiding clothing item is the cause of the need for all these exchanges above, right?

flo (13313points)“Great Answer” (0points)
flo's avatar

@woodcutter talk about white collar crime. Talk about how helpful it is to the not-so-white collar crime.

flo (13313points)“Great Answer” (0points)
Espiritus_Corvus's avatar

… is there any reason to wear something that hides one’s identity and thereby make it that much easier for a racist shooter?

and…

“I don’t think George Zimmerman would have had any problems with him, but he was wearing a hoodie…”
Bill O’Reilly, FOX News

Based on this logic, it should be open season on orthodox female Muslims, Catholic nuns, Franciscan monks, and anybody else who’s so goddamned stupid enough to hide their identity with their clothing. But I don’t think a whacko with bottomed-out self-esteem needs much of an excuse anyway.

flo's avatar

@Espiritus_Corvus Please read this OP.

flo (13313points)“Great Answer” (0points)
ninjacolin's avatar

lol, this thread was hilariously infuriating. Curious, has your opinion changed, @flo? How would you answer your own question these days?

flo's avatar

@ninjacolin No,I haven’t. I wouldn’t wish you or someone you love end up shot as a result of mistaken identity.

flo (13313points)“Great Answer” (0points)
flo's avatar

@Espiritus_Corvus “I don’t think a whacko with bottomed-out self-esteem needs much of an excuse anyway.” And? What is the difference the person is dead for no reason.

The items “orthodox female Muslims, (except the niquab) Catholic nuns, Franciscan monks wear don’t hide their face.

flo (13313points)“Great Answer” (0points)
ninjacolin's avatar

So, you still think there are identities that deserve to be shot or raped? And that it’s possible a well meaning shooter/rapist is simply mistaking me for one of such people because of what I’m wearing?

What are your thoughts on this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=86ST_suvc9I

ninjacolin's avatar

And you might consider this: Tips for being an unarmed black teen.

flo's avatar

Of course that’s what I’m saying @ninjacolin isn’t it obvious? Yes black people should be shot women should be raped and on and on. I’m like Hitler or something.

flo (13313points)“Great Answer” (0points)
ninjacolin's avatar

oh! Well alright then.. so.. what are we arguing about exactly?

cazzie's avatar

I remember learning to hunt with my Dad. One of the BIG rules we learned, especially when small game hunting, was NEVER FIRE unless you have a clear view of your target. Don’t fire at a noise. If you are hunting grouse or pheasant or rabbits, make sure it’s not the hunting dog you are shooting at. I guess that doesn’t apply when hunting human beings. Or perhaps what @flo is justifying is an open season on the streets of anyone in a hoodie?

You people can’t seriously be justifying killing someone because they ‘look’ like your definition of a criminal (or Black Gang Member as @woodcutter would put it.)

cazzie's avatar

@JLeslie wrote: It’s like my SIL who drives like a maniac sometimes and doesn’t give a shit if it causes an accident, if the accident is not her “fault.” Well, if she is dead or has a serious permanent injury from the accident, does it matter the other driver was cited for the accident?

Are you seriously making an analogy that dangerous driving is the same as wearing a hooded jacket?

ragingloli's avatar

Can I start wantonly gunning down bald people?
Clearly I am well justified in assuming that any bald guy I meet is a neonazi skinhead.
If you do not want to be seen as a neonazi skinhead, do not shave your head, or wear a wig!

Espiritus_Corvus's avatar

@flo People in hoodies don’t usually hide their faces either. However, their heads are covered “just like some muslim women, Catholic nuns, Franciscan monks and anybody else who’s so goddamned stupid enough to hide their identity with their clothing.’”

See what I did there, flo? The portion in the last sentence in double quotes is from my last post on this thread—the one I believe you were referring to above in your last post. See the bold, italicized portion of the last sentence in single quotes (e.g. hide their identity…)? Does it look familiar? I was referring to the details in your own question where you stated ”...but is there any reason to wear something that hides one’s identity…” You were talking about people hiding their identity by wearing a hoodie. I pointed out that their are many types of dress worn by many people who shouldn’t be shot—not right away, anyway—who also wear hoodie-like garb.

I was being facetious. F-a-c-e-t-i-o-u-s.

majorrich's avatar

I would take care if hunting hoodies. The season may be very tightly controlled with a bag limit and buck/doe tags and you could get in real trouble for taking a trophy out of season. People end up in jail over that kind of thing.

flo's avatar

@Espiritus_Corvus et al:
All I need to know:
I don’t see your responses on my OP re. judge http://www.fluther.com/179350/would-this-judge-say-youre-not-suitably-dressed-to-a-man/ You have an opportunity to address what freedom means, speaking of freedom, right?

flo (13313points)“Great Answer” (0points)
ninjacolin's avatar

@flo, you haven’t at all defended your position. I find that particularly annoying. I wish this was a conversation.

flo's avatar

@ninjacolin You agree I’m Hitler in your last post.

You have an opportunity to converse with not just with many more people on that judge OP.

flo (13313points)“Great Answer” (0points)

Answer this question

Login

or

Join

to answer.

Mobile | Desktop


Send Feedback   

`