I am not voting for Romney, so it doesn’t matter to me who he selects. I honestly can’t see that this choice would be a deal breaker for many. Most voters have probably already made up their mind about the candidates.

I don’t understand this. I’m beginning to suspect that Romney doesn’t want to win. Doesn’t he pay attention to his staff? Doesn’t he realize he needs to turn towards the center for the general election? This is not a strategic choice. He is telling his base he’s one of them, and in doing so, he is giving up a huge opportunity to tear off a piece of the middle for himself.

Didn’t they learn anything from the Palin debacle?

I would have voted for Romney regardless of his choice in VP. Ryan, is the chairman of the House Budget Committee and it’s pretty clear what he stands for which I believe is true of Romney as well. We have to get this country back to work and the debt/deficit addressed. I’m convinced these two can work with the House and Senate and accomplish that.

Romney is scary and Ryan is scarier. Romney is indifferent toward the non-rich and Ryan is hostile toward them. Ryan is the poster child for obstructionism.

I read an article that says Romney wants to set us back into the 1890’s and Ryan want to go back the the 1860’s. Together they make the most regressive political team since Grant was elected. They want to destroy medicare, social security, and any discretionary spending except for the military. That is exactly opposite of what the country needs an will likely make us a military autocracy. They will kill democracy for everyone but the richest of us.

From bad to disastrous. What a clusterfuck the GOP is.

I suspect that the people who wouldn’t have voted Romney still won’t vote for him and conservatives who were iffy about Romney are going to reconsider. Paul Ryan is smart and popular with certain conservative groups. It’s not an unexpected choice. I think it will move the focus back on the economy (the only thing people know about Paul Ryan is his budget plan).

I’m curious to see if this has any effect in the swing states, which is what really matters in this presidential election.

I’m in a deeply red state. I’m still voting for a third party.

The very idea that the US could end up with Romney as President & Ryan as Vice President makes my blood run cold. If this duo ends up getting elected, everyone who is not already super rich will be doomed.

Paul Ryan is 2012’s Sarah Palin. I don’t think this is a death sentence for his campaign like Palin was for McCain, but this seems like a really, really bad choice all around.

If Romney can get Ryan to just shut up, smile, and wave through most of the campaign stops or events, he might be an OK pick, but I don’t think that’ll happen.

Ryan has admitted he would like to do away with medicare in its present form. When a republican says something like this, It ALWAYS means let a private business run it. That means you and I will pay more, and the business will profit and donate more money to the GOP. Been this way forever, and will never change. Anyone that wants to do away with medicare cannot, and will never win the presidency in this country.

So now we have two pretty boys with immaculate hair running together. Big Whoop. Ryan. manages to project less of the “shady used car salesman” vibe than Romney does as well as being less robotic, but It certainly wont convince me to vote for either one of them.

The choice of Ryan is to help with his support from the Tea Baggers.
The result is he will lose more votes from seniors who will focus on Ryan’s restructuring and destruction of Medicare and Social Security.

Romney does not need help with the tea-baggers or the “base.” They have nowhere else to go. Romney needs help getting a little more votes than Obama. Helping Romney nail down votes he is already getting—I don’t see how that helps him win the election, unless his polls show a lot of hidden support.

@wundayatta Don’t think of it as tea-bagger votes. Think of it as tea-bagger support (money) and exciting them enough so they don’t stay home.

I wasn’t planning on voting for Romney to begin with. I have nothing special against Mitt, but there is almost nothing that I like about Ryan. In fact Ryan disagrees with me on about 99% of the issues, and he strikes me as a straight neocon, someone even Rush Limbaugh would support. Now the news is showing Ryan in his hunting gear (yawn), typical Republican baloney at work again. Hopefully Romney’s pick for VP will drive away some more moderate voters.

Even less likely to vote for him and I have NO intention to vote for him the first time.

I don’t think that the strategy of giving the rich even more tax breaks as a means to reduce debt makes a lot of sense to Americans who are capable of critical thinking. So, no, this VP candidate will greatly improve Obama’s chances.

Thank you all for having a more level head about this. I’m terrified, and can’t think straight! My friends’ who were already Romney supporters are still Romney supporters, and some of them are on Social Security or are very poor. I keep forgetting it is only a small sample, not a nationwide example.

Well, @GracieT, if Ryan gets his way, I think Europeans will have to send Oxfam, Relief International and Doctors without Borders to the poor regions of America.

@mattbrowne “Americans who are capable of critical thinking” That’s the point. It seems that fewer and fewer Americans are thinking critically. Many hate Obama because he’s part black, almost 20% think he’s a Muslim, and the National Rifle Association thinks he’s going to take our guns away.

None of this has a basis in fact. The facts are that the Ryan budget places Medicare and Social Security into the hands of bib business, takes more rights away from the middle and poorer classes, makes those classes pay more in taxes while giving trillions of dollars to the richest of us, maintains ridiculous military spending, and actually increased the budget debt. But Ryan is good looking and “sounds” reasonable. I expect the devil would have the same traits. I submit that the majority of Americans are no longer educated enough to see what a Romney/Ryan team will do to damage this country and make us a permanent second rate country.

@mattbrowne, the shocking and sad truth is organizations like Remote Area Medical Volunteer Corps have been doing just that for decades in the US. They volunteer and go to areas where there is living proof of the true success of American’s social welfare system.

Yes, I’ve heard of this. But with an ultra-conservative vice president like Ryan the whole misery situation will be taken to the next level. Even the Remote Area Medical Volunteer Corps might no longer be able to cope.

Is that your idea of critical thinking in a discussion, @mattbrowne?

I mean no offense to you, @mattbrowne. It is just that it is a serious issue and has been for some time in that area where I was raised. I’m sorry that my above response was flippant. I was serious with my concern on where we are headed in America if there isn’t some real change in how we deal with things. Please forgive my short and disrespectful critical thinking remark.

@Ron_C
I think Ryan is a Reactionary that wants to destroy the American Dream. He would like the majority of us to live like most people did in the Nineteenth Century. He supports the one percent wealthiest and opposes research.
I think it is time for a third party that represents the majority. I may vote for Mickey Mouse because neither candidate represents my values. I am a moderate and I decide by documentation.

I am a huge Romney supporter. I value his beliefs and hope to see him as president soon :)

No problem, @bkcunningham. I was a bit flippant too. I’m just so disappointed about the direction of the Republican party. I wish for more empathy and compassion in politics, not coldheartedness.

I believe the only way to save this country, is not by dismantling the government programs, but by dismantling the Republican Party and its enablers. Mitt Ryan is not the person that should be leading this country. The person that should be leading this country is the one that have the interest of the lower and middle classes in mind, not the rich scum class. A vote for Rmoney – Ryan is a vote for disaster, doom, and failure.

WOW! I have never seen so many misinformed people gathered in one spot. I feel sad for some of you.

So many hateful liberals.
sheep being lead to slaughter.

@question_it_all, I wanted to say welcome to Fluther before you disappear.

::Prepares for onslaught of logical viewpoints to counter @question_it_all‘s anti-liberal and baseless comments::

@question_it_all Generally people offer reasons and data to support their answers on fluther. Even the conservatives here tend not to be your typical bombastic types who spread around scurrilous accusations without offering any reason for people to believe them. I look forward to seeing your reasons for believing the things you do. I fully expect that you will be reasoned and logical in your arguments, and will offer plenty of evidence to support your assertions. I look forward to being persuaded that letting the rich get richers and the poor get poorer is a good thing.

@question_it_all‘s posts show a typical right-wing response when they disagree: using the word misinformation without offering any logical counter-critical arguments.

Did I say anything about myself being “Right-Wing” or anti-Liberal? No I did not. People see in my comments what they want to see. They make assumptions. What I was pointing out was based on what I read. The majority of hateful comments I read came from what seem to be people with Liberal views, does that make me anti-Liberal? When I stated about people being “misinformed” did I point left or right? No. Same with the sheep comment, did I point left or right? No. My comments are my observations, nothing more. Maybe everyone needs to start looking at themselves. You want reasons??? go back and read the all the comments that the fine folks here have posted and if you can look at them for a moment outside your wall maybe, just maybe, you’ll see the tiniest bit of what I see.
Again so many misinformed people

@question_it_all said:

When I stated about people being “misinformed” did I point left or right? No. Same with the sheep comment, did I point left or right? No.

So many hateful liberals.
sheep being lead to slaughter.

You might want to recheck your answer.

I had checked. Way before I posted my response.
Two different statements, two different thoughts.
Exactly what I was talking about.
You assumed that statement two was related to statement one just because they were in the same post.

@question_it_all Why don’t you clear the air? What are your thoughts on Paul Ryan as the VP pick? This is, after all, a question posted on a forum for people to discuss their opinions on Romney’s choice of Ryan, and maybe discuss in more detail of why they approve or disapprove of the pick. I see this coming from others, however not from you. Care to elaborate why you think the above statements are “hateful” and why they are “sheep being lead to slaughter”?

Sure,
I have no opinion at this time. Still doing research to make an informed decision. Still trying to sort through all the talking points to the facts.

“Romney is scary and Ryan is scarier. Romney is indifferent toward the non-rich and Ryan is hostile toward them. Ryan is the poster child for obstructionism.”
“They will kill democracy for everyone but the richest of us.”
“What a clusterfuck the GOP is.”
“everyone who is not already super rich will be doomed”
“Paul Ryan is 2012’s Sarah Palin.” ( c’mon, get over her already )
“So now we have two pretty boys with immaculate hair running together”
“tea-baggers”
“I expect the devil would have the same traits.”
“not the rich scum class”

They will kill democracy for everyone but the richest of us you mention is out of context.

“I read an article that says Romney wants to set us back into the 1890’s and Ryan want to go back the the 1860’s. Together they make the most regressive political team since Grant was elected. They want to destroy medicare, social security, and any discretionary spending except for the military. That is exactly opposite of what the country needs an will likely make us a military autocracy. They will kill democracy for everyone but the richest of us.”

@Ron_C did back up that statement with the sentiment that Romney tax plan plus Ryan’s thoughts on medicare give the indication that they don’t want Government to provide such safety nets anymore, and instead privatize them (which usually results in old people getting screwed while the business side profits)

So now we have two pretty boys with immaculate hair running together—while it may sound condescending, I certainly wouldn’t paint it as hateful.

I expect the devil would have the same traits is also something you took out of context from what @Ron_C was trying to say.

”“Americans who are capable of critical thinking” That’s the point. It seems that fewer and fewer Americans are thinking critically. Many hate Obama because he’s part black, almost 20% think he’s a Muslim, and the National Rifle Association thinks he’s going to take our guns away.
None of this has a basis in fact. The facts are that the Ryan budget places Medicare and Social Security into the hands of bib business, takes more rights away from the middle and poorer classes, makes those classes pay more in taxes while giving trillions of dollars to the richest of us, maintains ridiculous military spending, and actually increased the budget debt. But Ryan is good looking and “sounds” reasonable. I expect the devil would have the same traits. I submit that the majority of Americans are no longer educated enough to see what a Romney/Ryan team will do to damage this country and make us a permanent second rate country.”

Essentially what he is saying here is that the proposed tax plan which gives the rich more tax deductions and maintains an already unsupportable military budget would only increase the debt. Obviously, @Ron_C disagree’s with this plan and uses the analogy that the devil would would have presented a similar argument… essentially proposing a plan to further the gap between the wealthy and the poor while continuing to strip those less fortunate of the benefits government is able to supply. Out of context, it may seem hateful, but he does support the statement with why he feels that way, leading me to believe is is informed, not misinformed. You, however, are calling him misinformed, meanwhile saying you have not sorted through any of the facts to make an informed decision. “For the love of money is the root of all evil” It is truly amazing what rich and powerful people will do to make more money, even if it means taking away from the less fortunate.

…not the rich scum class… you simply took @reijinni‘s phrase out of context of his point

“I believe the only way to save this country, is not by dismantling the government programs, but by dismantling the Republican Party and its enablers. Mitt Ryan is not the person that should be leading this country. The person that should be leading this country is the one that have the interest of the lower and middle classes in mind, not the rich scum class. A vote for Rmoney – Ryan is a vote for disaster, doom, and failure.”

He supports that one small context that you quoted with a surrounding argument of something he believes in based on previous statements about the GOP budget plan. I do not think it’s any big secret that the GOP is a party for the rich, which is shown by their budget plans and tax proposals (Ryan proposed in 2010 to cut capital gains tax to 0, essentially allowing people who live off investments to get by paying 0 taxes) This and many other concepts proposed by GOP figures may trigger such hateful responses as “tea-baggers” and “What a clusterfuck the GOP is” but most of these “hateful” responses aren’t due to misinformation, but rather things they have actually read into. Now there are always two sides to each story, but I have yet to see a GOP plan that benefits the majority, and not the wealthy minority.

I challenge you to prove that the individuals here are misinformed. Prove to us that the Romney-Ryan ticket is not going to benefit the rich moreso than the middle-class and poor (which is what seems to be disgusting flutherans in this post the most). Provide counter-points to the arguments these people are making before you simply call them uninformed, then follow it up by stating that you have not done enough research to make an informed decision yourself.

Welcome to Fluther btw.

What does taking it out of context have to do with it?
You asked for examples, I gave you examples of what I was referring to, to be used as reference points for look up not stand alone statements.

Again, people seeing what they want to see.

@question_it_all Precisely, you see what you want to see, discounting the supporting points around the questionable quotes you noted. Before calling anyone misinformed, inform yourself on the topics. Most comments you pointed out were supported by argument points, where yours are not.

but ask the question….. could the point be made without the resorting to name calling???
Like the name says…. Question it all
“argument points” ? Now its an argument?
You make the assumption I’m haven’t made myself informed on the topics… another assumption….

@question_it_all I made my assumption that you disagreed with the above comments without fully knowing the facts. I made this assumption simply because you referred to them as “sheep being lead to slaughter” I apologize if I made the wrong assumption, but I figured you would clear any/all assumptions up by posting what lead you to believe the previous post’s were misinformed.

There is nothing wrong with disagreeing with an opinion. Fluther is full of opinions, and obviously not everyone agree’s with them. But, it is common courtesy to explain your opposition to the “sheep”. If you do not, then most will make the assumption that you disagree without fully knowing why. It’s healthy to practice logical argument, so to avoid being a sheep.

I will agree to your point where name-calling isn’t necessary, but some may feel more strongly about a subject than others, especially if it directly affects them, so they may feel like a person’s opinions or idea’s are personal. I can understand how someone who is in their 60’s who has been paying into Social Security and Medicare all their lives may feel upset when a political party wants to start stripping away those benefits to “reform” it, all while giving more to the wealthy in one fail swoop.

@question_it_all Also, when I say argument points, I essentially mean the evidence to support the quoted phrase that you posted. It doesn’t necessarily mean an argument, but simply a fact-point that could be used during an argument to support said statement.

I wish I had more time to carry on this discussion but truly I don’t. I am at work and this is not what I am being paid to do.
If you would like a better understanding of the sheep comment, there are two statements within my posts that with the proper research will lead you to a better understanding of who the “sheep” are…
I’ll check back in a few days to see if you have figured it out… BTW, the sheep comment is one of them…

@question_it_all Haha… I am not going to do research on some cryptic statements you post on Fluther. Simply tell us why we are sheep or don’t post at all. I am beginning to believe you are a sheep since you cannot explain why you think we are all misinformed and are being lead to our slaughter. Seems a bit drastic.

We are all sheep,
the two references..
Sheep
The Wall,
hint…. think music

@question_it_all Could you point to a statement that you believe is misinformed, and offer your reasons for believing it to be misinformed. It will be more helpful, if you can provide evidence about the points you want to make.

It is hard for me to believe that a person is open minded and still educating themselves when they also think people are so misinformed. To me that’s like running around a giant hornets nest waving a machete.

A recent survey found that atheists know more about the bible than do the religious. I suspect the same thing holds true for liberals and conservatives. Liberals read, at least, part of the Ryan budget and understand Romney’s apathy towards the middle class and poor while the conservatives shout and vote for anything that isn’t Obama. I would guess that if the Republicans start reading what their “leaders say and do” they would be unlikely to vote for Romney especially accompanied with Ryan, Ryan is a nice intelligent guy that is prepared to make sure grandma and grandpa pay into the extreme capitalism of health and insurance industry that places profits far above service.

@Ron_C
The two party system in this country has created too many extremist. Too many people support the Democrats or the Republicans. They follow the party and candidate blindly. We need a third party. A party that would be better at representing the majority and moderates.
I support neither party. The Democrats have moved too far to the L and the Republicans have moved to far to the R.
It is the responsibility of each of us to comprehend the documentation (facts) and decide on our owe. All the Politicians do is bullshit and support undocumented party rhetoric. The L does not listen either. I was a Democrat and now I am an Independent. Hillary would have been President if, the Democrats had any objectivity. Why wouldn’t they support a brilliant women?
There are three sides to most issues the L, the R and the facts. Both parties slant the facts and few people No the true facts.
It is time for a third party. Neither party represents my values.
I support the middle class, I want to help poor people, special needs people and elderly. I think we must put legal American citizens interest first. We can not save the world at the expense of the majority of American’s. We should tax wealthy people more and we must stop allowing jobs to be resourced to other nations.
It is time for American’s to take back our country and stop letting Politicians destroy it. None of them are on the side of the majority. They all favor the Lobbyist and their own best interest.

No. I do have reasons but I doubt they would enliven the discussion. But my answer to the question is no…no…no.

@philosopher I fully support your entire agenda. Unfortunately we are stuck with a two party system and the rules are slanted as to make a viable 3rd party unlikely. Ross Perot came closest to a third party win. Unfortunately, strange things happened to his campaign that could easily be attributed to tricks played by the major parties.

Republicans march in goose stepping lock step like good little fascists. Controlling democrats is like herding cats because they encompass the left, right, and moderate. Personally, I would like to see the right and moderate factions of the party disappear, I am a liberal democrat that believes in the rights of all humans, that the people should control the commons and the private sector has no business running prisons, police forces, state parks, or postal service. Further, I would like to see an graduated capital gains tax that goes from a 150% for transactions that last less than a minute to the regular income tax rate for profits over 1 million dollars. So you see, there’s no single party for me either.

@Ron_C
If the Democrats had any foresight they would have put Hillary on the ballot. Both parties are corrupt and they both refuse to examine the documentation. Moderation and representing the majority of American citizens is their job. They all work for the Lobbyist, the wealthiest, foreign interest and themselves
I am aware of what really happen because we have family that works with one of the parties. I can No longer hold a conversation with this person. The Republicans promoted Obama to stop Hillary. A wealthy L Winger,Oprah, Kennedy and Donna Brazil wanted Obama. The Demorcrats did what they wanted.
I can not respect any of them. They did not decide based on what was best for America.
Hillary had more experience and would have done a better job. I remember having a balanced budget in the 1990’s. I remember when American’s had jobs and things were made here.