I don’t think it has much to do with the absolute pain threshold of men. It may or may not be true that men are more prone to complaining about pain than women are. I don’t know the numbers so I really can’t say.

I do think that this is more of an anthropological thing – call it “revenge of the women”. In many other physical things, womens’ bodies are not as strong (or large, or limber) as mens’. In a wrestling match, the male is more likely to win than the female, and so on.

So psychologically, women have built up this legend ‘that we can bear more pain, which makes us stronger” as an invented compensation mechanism to make them feel better about the lack of physical strength. Whether it is true or not, whether it is provable or not, doesn’t matter to women – it is the legend – the mystique – that brainwashes women.

it’s harmless, and if it makes women feel better about themselves, I have no problems with it. But just because women think it doesn’t make it true.

Of course, this is just my theory.

I do tend to agree although I also believe many couples are singular to themselves too. The things that irk me the most are:

Because I am female I am expected to cook every night. This would not be so bad if the ‘hunter gatherer’ had gone out and skewed the pig himself. But no, I do that too. Perhaps men think I am born with a special gene that results in lots of feather fluthering and a desire to fill his belly? I am really not sure.

Do some men not realize that I have better things to do? Or that sometimes they can pick up a pot and cook, we all started off the same way, unable to cook. However, this sounds like a rant!

For the most part I think we tend to teach people how to treat us. As for torn knees and broken backs, being a martyr gets a person nowhere plus we can never really measure pain can we? I know when I am ill I am worse than any ‘man’.

I also agree that women are becoming heads of households in all ways, child rearing, earnings and pretty much everything else. In the ‘old days’ perhaps having roles was easier than today where women, pay the mortgage, buy the food, cook it, wash up after it, raise kids, look after their families health, work for a living and can do touch up DIY jobs around the home. Don’t forget too, that we are supposed to have really hot ‘asses’ at the same time and look 10 years younger while we are doing it.

I do believe too, that men are under the microscope now in terms of earning power, ability to share and also have to look good. So the tide is turning albeit very slowly.

Renaissance men are rare. I blame broken families with missing fathers for this. Not many young males have anyone to teach them to be functional men. It’s no secret that US male testosterone levels are dropping. Is it something in the water? Is it the GMO food? Or is it because so many young boys are being raised by their mothers only? Are they becoming addicted to the nurturing care of their mothers, expecting the same from their adult relationships? Who will step forth, and teach young males to become providers and protectors?

Has me wondering if this is somehow related to the upswing of the Mother Goddess idealisms of current spirituality movements. The masculine Gods are waning.

I think if you wait on the guy hand and foot, like you described, he will eat that up and enjoy “playing sick.” If the same guy lived alone and nobody to baby him, he could not behave that way. He’d have to deal with his health issues and care for himself. You “enabled” him. As far as his whining and complaining go, not many women would stick around to deal with that crap.

When my wife is sick, I wait on her hand and foot. I will take time off work, and make sure she stays in bed, has good food, and all the house chores get done.
When I am sick, my wife leaves the house. She will go have breakfast with friends, and go shopping. She says this helps me because the house is quiet, but really she just isn’t into helping the sick.
I don’t think it is a man thing. I think some people are just that way.

I mostly encounter these stereotypes when talking to people who clearly follow the normative gender roles in their relationships (so, among family or coworkers, or in communities like Fluther). Most of my friends tend to treat each other as equal persons in their relationships, and I don’t hear this kind of thing among them. Both people take out the trash, both wash the dishes sometimes, everybody helps out and copes with problems. There is generally less bitching and moaning about what the other person is not doing or not capable of doing. That doesn’t mean I won’t say things like “women are generally tougher”, but I’m joking when I say things like that. Mostly.

I was once in a relationship with a man who was much as you describe – expected to be taken care of when sick, was unemployed a lot, essentially wanted to be “mothered”. Yet he always seemed to beat his chest about “being the man”. That term meant something to him, even though he wasn’t living up to his own stereotype. When I finally decided I’d had enough and needed to stop supporting him financially, he accused me of having “emasculated” him. That was worth an eyeroll and a good laugh. In that relationship, I was the stronger person, always. But the balance shifts depending on who the two people are.

We aren’t really designed for the world we live in. Women are supposed to look after the kids and keep the cave clean while men go off in a pack hunting sabre toothed tigers and risking life and limb to feed their families. Women now hold men in secret contempt and most men are secretly embarrassed by the work they have to do.

My ex husband was a whiner, for sure. One of his favorite terms was “I think I ripped something,” meaning a muscle.

My husband now hardly complains at all, even when he’s really hurting. However, he does expect to be be able to read his mind and know if he hurts somewhere, but hasn’t told me!

Someone mentioned enabling..my husband has a bad habit of not cleaning up after himself. I think he expects me to do it, and if it was a regular mess I would. But he’ll make it into a much bigger and disgusting mess instead! He’ll cook a burger for himself, and his idea of cleaning up is to put some dish soap in the pan with water and leave it….for DAYS. Bugs floating in it. So gross. Total waste of dish soap too. I’ve said something a couple of times, but he continued doing it until I finally quit cleaning the disgusting crap up. When he was the one who had to do it next time he needed a pan, then he finally quit doing it.

He’ll also use the last of the milk and instead of taking two steps to the trash he’ll just put it in the sink. I leave that too. If he does something, or doesn’t do something, out of sheer laziness I just leave it. Other than that, I do most of the cleaning. He THINKS he does a lot, but it’s sporadic and specific…he vacuums. He doesn’t clean windows, he doesn’t clean toilets, he isn’t constantly picking stuff up on his way to the kitchen to put it in the trash or whatever.

That exactly describes my marriage — in reverse.

Apparently I am the stereotypical woman.

Well, me and @filmfann

I think it is the nurturing that spoils them, and let’s face it, some of us enjoy it until we marry & it’s ‘expected.’

Stories like this make me think men are still more suitable to being providers, so that women can relax in the home and take care of necessary matters.

I suppose it’s normal for women to do a little bit more around the house. However, I would draw the line at having to nag my husband for financial support! Are you kidding me!

I refuse to ever be the ‘man’ in the relationship. Can I be completely honest, though? Some of the time it’s the woman’s fault, because she feels it is upon her gender to do certain things, and that she cannot ask for anything. If I’m sick I’ll literally spend an entire day in bed.. and I don’t care.

Doting mothers have something to do with creating the kind of man of which we’re speaking. And women who marry them wanting to dote on them until the kids come along and then the kids satisfy the need to dote. Strong fathers counter the doting mothers and then, if the fathers disappear in divorce (50%), you’re stuck with a lot of spoiled grownup boys. (Oh, did you get a booboo? Let Mama fix it.)

@glacial I, too, see a lot of couples like that. And I agree that people already establish what they will do in a relationship very early on—or, ironically, perhaps too late.

My parents are from the traditional mindset. My mom is always bringing me food to feed my fiancée with, whereas he finds it offensive because he can cook for himself.

@filmfan : Yes, I’ve seen it go the other way too.

I think men generally live with less pain than women, especially young men, so they mention their temporary pain when it happens, while women suffer more in silence.

My husband is a little bit of a baby when he is sick, he wants to be tended to, but when I am sick he is right there tending to me. But, overall I don’t want the healthy person near the sock person and at first he thought it was mean and horrible, but now he has signed on to that being a good idea. We sleep apart the first few days of illness, use separate bathrooms and the sick person does their best to not contaminate the kitchen. We rarely pass an illness to each other. I can only think of two times it happened, but there probably have been at least a couple more times.

As far as chores, when we both worked full time we split the house chores, when I went part time I picked up almost all of the house chores. When I went back to full time, without missing a beat he said, “I’ll start doing the laundry again and the dishwasher.” He also vacuumed about half the time. Now that I don’t work I do everything plus make him lunch almost every day to bring to work.

I thought this was what the “woman’s movement” ultimately wanted. Oh wait..they expected it both ways?

Personally I’m not a huge fan of rigid gender roles, and I find this lost art of manliness propaganda floating around out there to be nothing but a pile of garbage. The problem with boys/guys today isn’t the fact that they can’t be men, but the mixture of women’s liberation along with traditionalists standards till kept intact for males is creating this so-called identity war.

The fact of the matter is that when males and females are held to upholding extremely high gender standards problems will always arise. This is why males commit suicide much more than females, because they would rather be dead than accept failure or ask for help. On the other side of the coin problems concerning males, along with laws tilted against them creates a double edged sword where boys are getting cut from both gender traditionalists and many feminisms. I find gender role traditionalists to be reactionaries whom look for every fault with the cessation of gender roles, while not considering other factors at play here, because basically they don’t accept this type of change due to their own preferences.

The so-called beta males in my life were much more of a father to me than my alpha dad ever was. What the OP mentioned is just one side of the coin here, and there are other factors at work here besides so-called disintigration of rigid gender roles, and I blame a lack of work ethic as one of them. Read Ruth Ann Hartley’s, Warren Farrell’s and Cordelia Fine’s material for they make a great case for my statements above.

@woodcutter: The woman’s movement wanted to wait on men hand and foot when they’re sick?

Just wondering out loud…several of my girlfriends who have boys, especially those who have boys and girls, are overly doting towards their sons. Even their love for their son seems more intense than for their daughter(s) especially if there is only one boy. So, what I wonder is if men partly have an expectation to be waited on by their wives, because of how they were mothered. Because it seems mothers tend to “mother” their boy children more than their girl children.

I loved reading all the answers. Seems like most had very good points and insights.

What I can do about it is be conscious of my behavoir giving more then I would be able to maintain for sustainable amount of time. As many of you pointed out. And gave me examples of how that would work.

As to insights into this behavoir all of them seem valid and logical. I am going to assume there are several different motivating factors involved.

As to those who have men or are men who play the opposite role. Thank you for sharing I enjoyed the stories and as well as insight it is very nice to hear.

I can’t resist in directly replying to @woodcutter as I am not entirely certain he is being sarcastic. The women’s movement like any movement or ideal has many interpretations. But the general principle and precept is equal rights.

I wanted to say I really enjoyed reading this thread. Thank you for the thought and honesty everyone put into their answers, it is readily apparent.

@Unbroken: I am not clear what @woodcutter meant. “This is what the woman’s movement wanted – oh wait they expected it both ways?” They wanted to wait on men hand and foot when they’re sick?

@jca I am struggling not to attach any specific meaning to it. It certainly wasn’t clear. My best guess not just based on this answer but others is he at least a traditionalist.

To generalize they seem threatened and resentful of women taking steps to educate and become contributors to family income. And I could get more extreme from there.

However I am willing to consider this as humorous irreverent remark.

@Unbroken Before my husband and I got married we agreed neither person should have to more ours work and household combined. We set the tone at the very beginning. That’s why when I work full time it is kind of even for chores and errands, and when I don’t work I take everything over. There also have been times we get a maid during times that my work load was very extreme like Christmas time when I worked in retail. His work fluctuates less. I also know men who took over the role of cooking once they retired, and honestly I feel like each couple works out their roles and they evolve over time depending on the circumstances. The worst thing is when each person has a preconceived notion of roles, it’s better to work it out as a team in my opinion. Having said all that I wanted to add that I think having defined roles is very important, because then no one is waiting for the other to get something done and just watching the trash waiting to be taken out. Not that each persn can’t pitch in and help out with chores that are typically not theirs.

@Unbroken: I understand he may be a traditionalist, but he is also usually clear in his writing, and he is not stupid, so I would like him to clarify.

Woman’s movement has as many definitions as there are women. Women for millennia have been wanting men to just be more reasonable, Or…less testosterony. More sensitive, less brutish. Men should re engineer themselves to be more fair. Simply cancel the program that is us. Thats not asking too much, right? Well now you have it pretty much. Then y’all find fault when men are not standing up and being….men. It would be hard to find a female that would not fawn over the gay man. For them they are perfect. The traditional man is going extinct and maybe that is the way it should be, who knows? But don’t grumble when it gets hard to find any good men, who don’t want to marry their mothers.
When women are finally in control of all things important are there any here who really think these powerful people will be any different than the men who once held these positions?

@woodcutter That’s a really good point, Woody. Just look at Hillary – lol

@KNOWITALL I have heard that people walking near her can hear her balls slapping together when she moves. No wonder Bubba was hard to keep on the porch!

@woodcutter hahahaha, you so crazy!! :)

@Jleslie : It’s a double-edged sword. My fiancee is very independent—he can cook, clean, pretty much do all of that better than I can. His mother adopted a career when he was a teen and he had to fend for himself ;that’s where he learned how to cook and do chores. But he’s also had drug and alcohol problems. It likely isn’t from the mom issue, but I can’t help comparing his situation with mine, where my mom was there to do everything for me and I didn’t end up developing any major psychological issues (except maybe that I’m a little absent-minded).

But maybe the idea that men who were doted on by their mothers are somehow psychologically ‘healthier’ and less likely to abuse substances or fall into depression is just a link that I have made up…

LOL. well it’s actually kind of funny because I think I remind him of his mom, except that his mom was a raging feminist who made it a point to train her sons to be independent.

@sparrowfeed I’m certainly not trying to blame the mother. Each kid is different no matter what the mom does, we see how siblings can be so different, but maybe everything counts, or can push someone a little in a direction. My husband had a mom who didn’t work and a maid most of the time growing up. He had to keep his room clean, put away, but he never had to actually clean, as in scrub, anything, or launder anything, and probably not wash any dishes either, until he moved away for college. However, he likes things clean and neat, I think partly because he grew up in a neat house. If someone will wait on him hand and foot he readily accepts it and say thank you. He thanks me for making his lunch. He does not take it for granted. When we visit his mom he is like a kid all over again in some ways, being served, never lifts one finger to help out nor clean in any way. In her house he really feels no obligation to clean anything. But, if his mom, God forbid, could not do it physically, he would be one of the first to take care of her and do whatever needs being done.

I have heard other wives talk like this about their spouse. I think it’s sad. My husband works a physically demanding job to pay the bills and I do all of the housework, yard work, shopping, cooking, pet care, bill paying and chauffeuring the kids around to the doctor, dentist and after school activities. I’m the one who gets up in the middle of the night when our children are sick because he’s the one who has to get up early for work. He can come home after a hard day and not worry about anything else, but he does help me if I don’t feel well or when I need help with something, and he doesn’t complain about it. We take care of each other. I thought that’s what marriage was all about.

I have a very low threshold for pain. My husband can handle almost anything. I don’t think it’s a male/female thing. Everyone is different.

@jonsblond When I was a stay at home Mom that described me exactly. I remember going to a friend’s house once. She was also a stay at home Mom. I remember her bitching at her husband because he wasn’t cleaning the counter the “right” way. I thought “He shouldn’t have to be cleaning the counters at all!”

@Dutchess_III See, I don’t necessarily agree with that. He needs to be independent, in case I’m not around to take care of him. Just like me learning how to change my own oil.

@KNOWITALL My getting things done around the house when my husband is at work gives us time as a family when everyone gets home from work and school. My husband knows how to take care of himself, we just make life easier (and less stressful) for each other by taking care of each other this way. Less stress means the family is happy.

Caring for a house is not rocket science @KNOWITALL. It’s not like if you’re gone for a week the guy isn’t going to go “OMG! The floor needs to be swept! What do I do???” Housework is certainly not as complex as changing a tire, or your oil (which aren’t all that complex either.)

@Dutchess_III I want my spouse to be the best he can be, and if something happens, I want him to know how to cook, clean and balance a checkbook, handle stocks, etc…

It just hit me wrong you saying “I thought “He shouldn’t have to be cleaning the counters at all!”

He works 8, 9 hours a day plus overtime and supports the family so the wife can stay home with the kids. Why should he have to come home and cook dinner and clean the house too? If he wants to do it fine. But I sure wouldn’t bitch about the way he’s doing it!

Also, it’s up to your spouse to be the best that he can be. It has to be his own personal goal, and if he feels that supporting the family single handedly, then coming home and doing house work too will help him reach that goal then more power to him.

Fewer and fewer men are getting into college so that right there is setting up the dynamic of under achieving men in the future. I can’t think of a worse disaster for a modern 1st world country. The manual labor jobs are drying up as well as more and more people trying to get them. There aren’t so many of those good jobs left that can support a family. Men are going to get in on the shit end of the stick. If the trend continues for the next 3 or so generations it will become the accepted norm but the current generation will suffer the most because they still have the “man” inside them therefore, I think, the feeling of loss will be greater. There are still millions alive now who remember how it was and when those die out the end will be complete.

@KNOWITALL I’m assuming most of us have lived on our own for a bit and supported ourselves before we got married. Learning how to do laundry and change the oil in your car should have been learned when you were growing up at home. Just because one spouse does all the cooking and cleaning doesn’t mean the other doesn’t know how to do these things. It’s just an equal division of labor.

@woodcutter The opedius (sic) complex has been around since before Shakespeare.

I can’t speak for every woman but no one is trying to take away anything from the males.

Education of women giving them a choice devalues men? Sorry I don’t buy it. Unless those men are themselves ignorant.

Then you complain that men are having a harder time affording college and finding good labor jobs, supporting a family. Should not the extra students make college more affordable? “Women” have no more control over the rest then “men” do.

But you do bring up a valid point each child costs a quarter of million dollars several years ago to raise to the age of 17 no college isn’t included. Studies have gone on to say that the more money the parents make the more money the children cost. Then you consider inflation that has happened over the last couple of years.

This is no longer the 50’s most homes can’t afford to have both parents or one sole breadwinner in the family. Aren’t you glad we have joined the workforce and are better able to evenly distribute the load?

I would go so far as to say that it is almost impossible to have a blue collar worker support a family with children on one income. Certainly not and have anything set aside for emergencies.

No please don’t go even begin on “they took our jobs” spiel. The financial crisis is far more complex then that.

As to the traditional male who knew he was so fragile an ego that equality a simple concept in which America was founded on would rob him his identity.

I don’t buy it for a minute. I know plenty of men who are worthy men good men. Maybe there are a few men so inclined in fact I have no doubt. But might they also be the type that any other age would find another excuse to blame their failure to thrive?

@Unbroken That is not what I said…at all. It was you who seem to imply that there is a villain in all this. Not one sentance can you stretch that suggests I say it’s the woman’s fault. I state what is fact you take it in a combative way which I adore trust me- I know I’m connecting on something,You fell for the ol woodcutter satchel charge the others sometimes do

There is so much wrong with your rant^^^ I don’t know where to start.

@Unbroken I would go so far as to say that it is almost impossible to have a blue collar worker support a family with children on one income.

It’s possible. People make it impossible for themselves because they expect a $400,000 home in their 20s, a $35,000 vehicle in their 20s and the most expensive smart phones with the most expensive plans and trips to Disney World every summer and monthly manicures. You make sacrifices and move to where there is affordable housing. That’s what my family did. It’s possible if you really want it.

Blue collar workers get paid a lot, actually.

With better automation blue collar workers are losing out. Hopefully they can at least run the machines that replaced them but It will no doubt be at a significant pay cut.

@jonsblond Ok I will not say your way is wrong or impossible, but I would say it is unnecessarily hard, I can see the whole allure of being a stay at home mom. That it can be beyond a fulltime job. But that if you it is necessary in the upbringing of your children I will not disagree. But there is nothing wrong with wanting more. Even if it is just a part time job that gets one away from the house and the money goes to emergency saving or retirement or college fund for the kiddos.

@woodcutter Right. Well consider that an effective shut down. Poking at Hillary, saying women want men to be more reasonable less testoroney… that implies they weren’t reasonable to begin with from Aristotle to Sophacles to Alexander the Great, Renaissance men, Churchill, George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Moore and every male in between.

Women don’t require every position of power. Yes it would be nice to have a women President but does that undo all the males before her, or that will be after her?
True you do not say much. You imply. That I have to interpret and put meaning to what you say and then you have every right to claim I am wrong… Well fine. But I am not going to let you claim anything more then careful measured diplomacy. When it says nothing but to dissent it is hard for me a diplomatic person to call that more then squirminess.

I am sorry you mourn the death of manhood as you see it. But having grown up in a traditional male sphere I am not sure what you are mourning.

I didn’t find it “unnecessarily hard” when I was a stay at home Mom. It’s all in the attitude. I didn’t mine living in a smaller house that we could have other wise. I didn’t mind any of the “sacrifices” we made, because being with my children was worth it.

@Dutchess_III Can I point out that economy, since you are talking in the past tense was better then. Artifically inflated that it was it did make things from a sheer number’s angle easier. Also technology was not on warp speed. As @jonsblond pointed out children and parents both want techie toys. For a lot of them isn’t necessary I also agree with her there. Kids do need laptops or internet access for school at least But assuming they can share… The rest is a bonus. Not that children will see it that way or make it easy for you. That you yourself might really want a lcd or plasma screen tv with blu ray. Or xbox 360 or whatever.

But beyond the financial end of things it might have been easy for you and your family. I don’t doubt your assertion. But if you were to say that a good mother is a stay at home mother. I would disagree.

#1: You don’t even know when “back then” was. I had no problem denying my kids XBox, internet or cable TV. I sent them outside to play.
I taught school. There was nothing assigned that required internet access so I disagree that they need laptops. If they wanted internet access for school research they went to the library. It was just a couple blocks away.

#2. I would never say that a good mother is a stay at home mother. It’s what I wanted for myself.

^ Correct I said if you were.

Considering the economy is at its lowest point since the great depression it doesn’t really matter when it was exactly. Any point and time between the two would be on some margin of fiscally better.

Of course. The economy was always better in the past, and always worse in the present. Always.

@Unbroken You are making a whole bunch of ignorant assumptions I don’t even know where to begin. So I won’t. I also don’t want to derail this thread. I do have one thing to say to this.
but I would say it is unnecessarily hard, What? What I feel is best for the well being of my children is unnecessary? Not at all.

GA ^^

Also, And the economy isn’t at it’s lowest point since the great depression. It was worse in 1982. “It’s not even that close to being as bad (as it is today.) The ranks of unemployed and underemployed, controlling for the size of the population, were much larger in 1982 than today. ” 1982 was the year I resigned from work to be a stay at home Mom.

@Unbroken Nobody shuts the woodcutter down…ever. remember that.

Your diatribe was what I was phishing for by telling it like it is. It worked. Everything I do, works. Because it’s entertaining for me to draw your type out so you can blow yourselves up.

too easy

@jonsblond I can’t be sure, of course, but I don’t think she meant that you are making your life unnecessarily hard, but that our society/economy makes it unnecessarily hard to be a family with a stay-at-home parent. We could do a lot better job of supporting families who live on one salary.

To the topic, I know men who are like this…but I also know men who aren’t. Thankfully, I’m married to one who isn’t!

@augustlan Thank you precisely I didn’t mean to offend @jonsblond

@Dutchess_III That article was written in 2009 two years after the recession started. It said the worst was to come if we did not pass the stimulus package and we did and the worse did come.
They also said it was different from the depression because there weren’t as many social programs. Well guess who is paying for those social programs… the blue collar worker.

Here is a current article from your source new york times. The median household income is down 5% and inflation is rising by 1% each year.

The picture painted in broad strokes by the I.M.F. is correct and not at all without hope. As they say, things are improving, albeit too slowly. But in every case, we could be doing better were it not for policy mistakes, ones that are having profound and lasting impacts on the living standards of working families. In this regard, it’s important to peel back the economic onion, even if it makes you tear up.

Another current article saying my comparison was wrong we should be comparing this to the 20’s. http://www.thenewamerican.com/economy/commentary/item/15614-obamanomics-to-blame-for-worst-recession-since-the-great-depression….

@woodcutter what is my type and what have you accomplished in your opinion?

@Unbroken You are an angry feminist and you showed it unnecessarily by attempting to portray me as someone blaming women for how men are having problems. You showed your ass and thus you portrayed yourself in your own stereotype. When you do this to yourself, you now don’t get to bitch about anyone else doing it real or imagined.

@woodcutter I am not an angry feminist. I am a passionate one. The only males I critisized were ones I knew that deserved criticism and they are aware of my opinion of them. There a ton of males I admire. I did not not talk about them because they weren’t relevant to the discussion.

You were the one that suggested that the traditional male was brutish, testostroney and unreasonable by saying that feminists were trying to make them the exact opposite. I was the one that refuted this comment. Then you spoke of women trying to take over all positions of power. Then you ridiculed Hillary for her looks…. and I am the one that showed my ass???

I think the OP meant that the husband wasn’t contributing financially, either. I completely agree with the idea that if your husband is working to support a family, you should be the one doing the household chores. But what happens when you’re supporting the family AND working around the house? To me that isn’t a relationship.. that’s someone taking advantage of another person’s naivety.

I think the OP is right in that it’s becoming an increasing phenomenon (maybe?) Because of more successful women for women to want to take over all of the responsibilities and date ‘losers’ (i.e. guys who really don’t contribute to the relationship in any meaningful way, because all fancy language aside, that’s exactly what she was describing).

@JLeslie That sounds like a very healthy relationship. Congrats :)

Healthy on that front anyway. We have our problems of course.

@Unbroken Sigh…Again go back over every….single….comment of mine and reassess what you think of them. Not one time did I do any of those things you complain about. But you couldn’t resist jumping on them. I did re- read yours and really so far, You have not contributed one thing ,not one iota to the question. Instead you react to all the others who at least took a stab at it, considering there isn’t really one correct answer to the original question.
Economics? That’s about it. You could be an economic major maybe? Miss. Still seem to avoiding the question entirely. So, instead of sitting back in the relative safety of not doing anything, let’s hear yours. It’s easy to sit back and pick the hell out of someone else’s efforts when you have done nothing to contribute.

And as for the Hillery thing…I stand behind my comments. I was having fun,but when it comes to feminism you want to all be business and you want to be the group bully because you feel offended? Cool bring it on…babe.

@woodcutter I didn’t answer the question because I asked it. The only answer I picked apart was yours.

True @jonsblond was offended and @Dutchess_III stepped up to defend her. I have no problem with that other then she got offended in first place. I was talking generalities rather then pointing my finger at any one. If it works for you, cool. If you feel it’s important… that is great. But it is a harder road to take and isn’t for everyone. Mucho respect for those that try it and excel.

Back to the point I was asking for people’s opinions. Maybe I should not have gone along with you opinion and agreed to disagree. At least I can do that from afar. In person… I wouldn’t even attempt it.

So as a person who asked for an opinion from a group I apologize for questioning and disagreeing with you. That is as far as I will go.

ugh

Now that I can agree to.

still want to know your assessment of why males are lacking

My assessment of males isn’t lacking as a whole.

I asked why if people had observed this behavoir they thought it occurred.

Someone pointed out that men will only treat women as badly as we let them. I think that is a very good point.

Also that mothers could dote on them the dreaded “mama’s boy.” Thus they feel entitled.

There is also just plain old immaturity. And so forth. A good way to circumvent problems that I have made in the past is to realize them and use them as stepping stones..

Though honestly this was question was triggered by the conversation of my coworkers which I merely listened to. And the return of an ex who I mentioned above. He is an excellent man in all other regards. I need to remember every good reason we parted in the first place. But I was also curious as to how he could live the way he does.

Though it is true that there are ‘mama’s boys’, this isn’t every man in the world.

The issue here is of gender entitlement. No man is entitled to believe he should be waited on hand and foot just like no woman should believe herself entitled to having a man pay her way in life. Of course, this arrangement can and often does work, but probably because of a richer and deeper background context. It can and often does work the other way, too, especially nowadays.

Incidentally, as someone mentioned, I know a lot of men who are like this but they come from a certain background. I also know ones who aren’t. I chose to have a relationship with someone outside of my culture because I didn’t want this kind of man.

In my experience it’s not necessarily waited on “hand and foot.” It’s a basic laziness. Instead of putting an empty milk jug in the trash it gets put in the sink or left on the counter. Instead of throwing a wrapper away, it’s just left on the counter.

@Dutchess_III I need to change my habits because I’m guilty of doing that kind of stuff, too.

@Unbroken All I did was give you an example that it’s not impossible to live on one income in a blue collar working family if you really want it. (And it really isn’t harder or more stressful than having two working parents. In fact, I’d say it’s a much easier, less stressful life.) Then you listed a bunch of assumptions based on little information. I wasn’t offended. I was fed up because you have very little understanding about families with a stay at home parent. This is off topic and I really don’t have time to go back and forth with you about something you really don’t care about. Please quit saying I was offended. I’m done here. If you want to continue on and mention my name, please do so in pm’s. I don’t have time for this.

One of the problems with our society in general is the lack of empathy for men who want to be stay at home fathers, and for the almost sheer impossibility of said situation. If we were able to accept that both parents can be adequate caregivers, in time the role of caregiver would shift to both parents instead of just the mother.

This discussion highlights how important it is to make our needs and expectations known and to listen to those of our partners. Is this too obvious?

@Dr_Lawrence Thank you that is beautiful. It makes sense. But only when you are aware of your needs are we able to voice them. GA!

Also @sparrowfeed a delayed thanks for your contribution.

@Unbroken Thanks.

I’ve never known one single man who wanted to be a stay at home dad….

@Dutchess_III My ex would have done it in a heartbeat, if I could have made the same money he did in the workforce. Unfortunately, he made three times what I could as the sole breadwinner.

@Dutchess_III My fiancee has expressed that he thinks it’s sexist that women get the majority of the maternity leave. He knows a few guys at his office who were only able to take off 3 weeks to be at home with their newborns. I’m fairly certain not ALL men like the prospect of working a 9 – 5 job, coming home to help with the baby after work and at night, then coming in exhausted the next day. Because a decent father will see it as his responsibility to help out with the baby and not sit back and chug beer when he gets home, and I’ve seen many many guys who are actually great fathers and who also put in the 9 – 5. I know of a couple where the father takes the kid fully when he gets home from work so that the wife can relax, and sometimes she can go out while he’s with the baby. Bless his soul.. this is why I have faith in the male gender.

You’ve always gotta look at it from both sides.

@sparrowfeed I think there are some places that have parent leave. It makes sense the woman would get the maternity leave for the most part, she pushed the baby out or had it cut out of her. Let the poor thing recover. If she is breast feeding, well she has the breasts. She is more likely to be going through hormonal and emotional swings. It isn’t just for baby bonding, it is for the woman herself.

@JLeslie And I think most of the time men are aware of this fact, as are we. I’m just saying that not all women will want the full year maybe because of career demands, and the paternity leave is much harder to get.

On that note, though, we’ve already established I’m taking the full year. LOL.

@sparrowfeed Wait, I missed something, where do you live?

I know personally one couple where the husband was a stay at home dad. His wife had the more successful, more prosperous career, and he was great at caring for the children and enjoyed it. He did wind up leaving her for a man, but that is besides the point.

Another friend of mine she was the breadwinner also, and he worked part time and was supposed to be the primary homemaker and care for their child. He never really rose to the occassion and she finally divorced him and resents paying him child support.

I think it is not as simple as the man just taking care of the baby a lot of the time. I believe 100% there are very successful relationships where the man is the stay at home dad, but I don’t think it is as idealistic all the time as some want to think.

Taking parent leave during the first few weeks, or even first year I would classify as different than being the primary person at home for years.

If I had children I believe my husband would be great with them and enjoy them and parent well. But, I do think he would get stir crazy much faster than I would.

A year? Wow. Every woman I’ve known got 6 weeks!

@JLeslie “But, I do think he would get stir crazy much faster than I would.” Yes. It’s a thankless job, really. And, in fact, I was criticized a few times for wanting to stay home with my pre schoolers rather than going to work outside the home. Men seem to need recognition more than women and there really isn’t any when it comes to staying home with the kids.

@Dutchess_III You know what is awful? A lot of the stay at home mom’s I know are alcoholics. A wierd high percentage of them. Not the majority, but noticeable.

My mom stayed home the first 9 years of my life, a little part time work here and there. She loved it. She still says it was one of her happiest times in her life.

As long as the person staying home loves it, I think it is all good. If they feel they are stuck or unable to pursue something they yearn to do, then it is a mess.

In my circles no one looks down on women who stayed home and their husband are the breadwinners. Unless they say things that sound ridiculous or ignorant to working people. Some sort of unreasonable expectation. Doesn’t matter if she works or not. What matters is the person themselves, is she interesting, able to carry on a conversation, and is her relationship with her husband seen as equal, like a teem, they each have their roles and support each other and value each other. As soon as the guy comes off domineering and like she is kept in her place, or just some sort of trophy or maid, all bets are off.

That is weird @JLeslie. I was too busy to be an alcoholic! Apparently they’re lacking something in their lives…. :(

I agree with all that you said.

@Dutchess_III My mom wasn’t an alcoholic, I just want to make sure I didn’t imply that. She doesn’t drink. Not that I judge the mom’s who are, I kind of feel like many of them wound up in a life they never planned.

Hm. I just realized….my mom was! Wow.

It started much later on in our lives though. Do the women you know who are alcoholics the parents of infants and toddlers, or school age kids? I just don’t know what I’d do with myself all day if there was no one in the house to take care of or talk to. I could see that happening.

@Dutchess_III One of my friends had school age children and she really was quite out of control for a while there. Both of her parents were alcoholics, I think she was prone to it. The other woman I know have high school or older children. I didn’t know them when their children were younger.

I just saw a thing on TV about mom’s using pot to handle the day. Some sort of movement I think. Oy. Alcohol, Xanax, marijuana, working, not working, still something is wrong that so many people feel so stressed and out of control as a constant baseline state of being.

I live in Canada. It’s a year here. I think what they offer in the U.S is actually borderline criminal.

@Jleslie: Unfortunately, it might be easier to fall into alcoholism when you don’t have to get up for work every morning, when you’re alone, bored and isolated all of the time.. maybe even when your husband is a d**k.

I agree that it can work if done in a respectful way. Usually, I find that the more enlightened a man is (i.e. the more he believes women actually shouldn’t be just in the home and the more he knows how to himself cook and do household chores, the more he is likely to respect and have a good relationship with a wife who is a stay at home mom. Because then it’s less about gender expectations and probably more about what’s practical.

@sparrowfeed There is an argument that companies will be less likely to hire women of baby making age if they know they will have to accomodate such a long maternity leave.

I can’t see 6 weeks, personally. I think that’s terrible.

Most companies here are very mom-friendly. Canada is much different.

@sparrowfeed Some companies here are very mom friendly, parent friendly, it’s hit or miss. Some companies have more flexibility in general with schedules aside from leave. I actually don’t think parents should be given more flexible schedules just because they are parents. It has to be equal for all employees.

Is your maternity leave paid the entire time? Does it apply to adopted children?

Most of the time it is, but that pay depends on where you work. I want to go into teaching, where maternity leave pay is the entire time and it’s pretty good. I don’t think it applies for adopted kids.

What is the “entire time” @sparrowfeed? And why wouldn’t it apply to adopted infants?

For one whole year. I’m not sure about the adopted infants thing.

@sparrowfeed I hope it applies to adoption, I can’t understand what the difference would be. I know it isn’t your policy, I am not directing the comment at you like you decided adopted kids are different.

I assume the maternity pay comes from the province and not the company you work for? A social service pay of sorts, is that right? Most countries thathave very liberal maternity leave benefits tend to be more socialized and concerned the population isn’t growing fast enough, so the state encourages babies to be born by giving parents benefits. For the government it is more about money and society than the individual mom or dad really.

I read “the entire time” as very vague….could be anywhere from one day to 5 years, or 18 years to 21 years or, God forbid 35 years! There is no “entire time” when it comes to children.

I agree @JLeslie. I would hope it would apply to adopted chilluns too.

@JLeslie Yes, but I think that is a great way to provide a service to people and ensure a good way of living. Look at Sweden. Both parents can take the leave of I think about 18 months (total) and usually they divide it between mother and father. That country has one of the highest living standards in the world.

It will depend on the job. However, the amount of time that goes in, if it is a major corporation, is still monitored by the government. I’m not entirely sure. I’m looking for government work anyway so I assume I’ll have pretty generous maternity benefits.

@sparrowfeed I’m not arguing that the US way is the better way, I am just explaining some of the arguments. Sweden has an extremely low population growth rate, and a small population to begin with. I don’t know about Sweden specifically, but I know some of the countries near Sweden have a very different view than what the US practices today regarding income, government social systems, and life balance. Countries like Denmark the salaries don’t vary near as widely as the US, so the majority of the population basically has a upper middle class life from what I can tell. Culturally, they are not about having the biggest and the most stuff, less materialistic. There would need to be a cultural shift for America to increase maternity leave greatly I think. We don’t want a maternity law to actually work against women.