General Question

Hypocrisy_Central's avatar

How can a same-sex couple claim to be Christian when they are openly not following the God they claim to be following?

Asked by Hypocrisy_Central (26837points) June 27th, 2015
90 responses
“Great Question” (5points)

How do same-sex couples reconcile declaring they are Christian when they are not following or bypass the commandments of the God they claim to follow? What Bible are they using? If they earnestly say they are trying to be Christian but don’t end the unlawful union as God degreed, how can they say they are for God, but be against His commandments, unless they are in a religion (manmade) not so much a fellowship with God? Do they expect God to make allowances for them or do they believe they are supposed to change to fit God?

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Answers

cazzie's avatar

Which of the 10 says not to fall in love with someone? I forget.

I will always remember the one that says not to covet @Hypocrisy

Darth_Algar's avatar

The 10 Commandments say nothing about homosexuality. More importantly neither does Jesus Christ.

bossob's avatar

No response that exceeds the boundaries of your beliefs will be credible, despite the fact that there are Christians who don’t believe the same as you. Who’s right and who’s wrong is in the heart of the believer. Discourse in this setting will enlighten no one.

LostInParadise's avatar

Do you follow everything in the Old Testament? Do you keep kosher? The Old Testament says that the Sabbath falls on Saturday and that you can’t work on the Sabbath. It says that adulterers should be stoned to death. The Old Testament is perfectly fine with slavery. It says that women should be completely subservient to their husbands. Could it be that some of this stuff is horribly outdated?

stanleybmanly's avatar

The big secret is that ALL religions are man made. It therefore follows that the same must be said for all of the bibles and their conflicting convoluted rules. And though Christians claim to we are all made in the image and likeness of their God, no explanation is offered for his creation and presumed wiring of the gay folks among us

dabbler's avatar

I think @LostInParadise has the best point.
The only passages in “The Bible” about homosexuality are in the Old Testament. Christ himself said he had come to bring a new covenant for God’s people and that means dump the old laws.
The new law that Christ gave is “Love God above all else, love your neighbor as yourself”.

That’s how they can call themselves Christian, no conflict, no issue, no problem.

Blondesjon's avatar

Because Abraham and Moses were intolerant dicks and Jesus was not.

syz's avatar

Your version of Christianity.

I gotta say, this is the perfect example of the “my way is the only way” crap that cemented my atheism. That and the complete lack of logic.

syz (35649points)“Great Answer” (8points)
SavoirFaire's avatar

As I have covered multiple times, the so-called Biblical case against homosexuality is hardly airtight. But let’s just pretend the premise is true and that homosexuality is one of the many sins described in the Bible. As it turns out, the Bible has quite a lot to say about sinners and their relationship with God. Here is a sampling:

“We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way.”
—Isaiah 53:6

“For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.”
—Romans 3:23

“But God demonstrates His own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
—Romans 5:8

“Then Peter came and said to Him, ‘Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me and I forgive him? Up to seven times?’ Jesus said to him, ‘I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven.’”
—Matthew 18:21–22

“My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.”
—1 John 2:1–2

“As far as the east is from the west, so far has He removed our transgressions from us.”
—Psalm 103:12

“But where sin increased, grace increased all the more.”
—Romans 5:20

“All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God. God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.”
—2 Corinthians 5:18–21

“There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.”
—Romans 8:1

And finally, Revelation 12 tells us that it is Satan who is the “accuser of the brethren.” When sinners try to find reconciliation with God, Satan is the one who reminds them of what they have done and suggests that they are incapable of redemption or of having a relationship with God. As such, it seems that a Christian is one who recognizes that a relationship with God is to be encouraged regardless of whatever sins one might think another is committing. To focus on excluding people from the community of the saved is to do Satan’s work. To welcome people into it despite any perceived failings is to do the work of God.

Make your choice, @Hypocrisy_Central.

Apparently_Im_The_Grumpy_One's avatar

The bible doesn’t spend a great deal of time on homosexuality. It also doesn’t spend a great deal of time on beastiality or sex with a toaster oven.

What it does spend time on is the relationship between a man and his wife. Looking at the bible as a big book of what-not-to-do is a mistake. It teaches and guides us on what to do.
It never talks about husbands loving their husbands.. or wives loving their wives. It is clear.

That said, I believe someone can be gay and be a Christian. We all sin. Believing that it isn’t sinful, though, is a sign of spiritual immaturity.

Blondesjon's avatar

@Apparently_Im_The_Grumpy_One . . . The Bible also teaches and guides us on how to keep and treat slaves. Does that mean that a non-slave owner is a spiritually immature Christian?

sahID's avatar

@Blondesjon Great question. Or does it imply that only slave owners are to be considered to be Christians?

Judi's avatar

Clobbering Biblical Gay Bashing
How can you claim to be Christian as you sit there typing in your mixed fiber underwear?
Edit: I love you @SavoirFaire

Judi (39880points)“Great Answer” (10points)
cazzie's avatar

It does talk about how the wife should submit and how she is the husbands property. I don’t subscribe to that sort of thinking. For me, it is quite clear. I’m free and sexy and single and my neighbours be coveting the hell outta me!

Apparently_Im_The_Grumpy_One's avatar

I think you’re supposed to put those last four answers on this thread .

@Hypocrisy_Central
The dilution of the teachings of Jesus over the years has led to a lot of different things. The slow and steady degradation of willpower and spirituality has already happened many times before. It happened enough to lead to the flood, Sodom and Gomorrah’s destruction, and many other ends. The way that degradation seems to manifest itself today is in situations just like this one.

I harbor no ill will toward gay people. I think they are wrong but it’s not my place to judge that.

cazzie's avatar

EXACTLY! @Apparently_Im_The_Grumpy_One it is NOT your place to judge. and I mean that in the universal sense. It is nobody’s place to judge this and if they can’t take that away from what they read in the bible… well…. their god help them.

When they put themselves in the the place of judge, and condemn those they think worthy of condemnation in ‘his’ name, they are putting THEMSELVES above their god and they should do well to remember that bit.

Judi's avatar

As a Christian who’s faith has forced me to evolve on this subject, I have learned that a statement like “I harbor no ill will towards gay people, I think they are wrong but it’s not my place to judge” is so extremely arrogant and hurtful. I actually finally “got” it here on fluther when I said something similar a few years back. A jelly lashed back and her pain was so evident it caused me to repent. What I was saying was that who she was, how she was created was “wrong.”
I realized that what I had done was the true definition of taking Gods name in vain. I was trying to speak for him and at the same time saying that he had somehow made a mistake making this one that he loves and calls me to love.
That’s not my job. My job is to reflect Gods love to whomever he puts in my path. He gets to convict hearts and he sure convicted mine in that moment. My job is to love.
Thankfully, I think @tinyfairy has forgiven me.

Judi (39880points)“Great Answer” (17points)
Apparently_Im_The_Grumpy_One's avatar

@Judi
How is it hurtful? You basically just said the same about me but it really didn’t seem offensive. We can think other people are wrong. What’s wrong with that?

cazzie's avatar

Triple lurve for @Judi!

cazzie's avatar

@Apparently_Im_The_Grumpy_One You think other people are wrong…. fine. That is your singular, small. unimportant, minimal point of view. If you claim to believe in your god, then you need to realise that you have NO RIGHT to say hurtful, judgmental things to things you feel offend you. If you actually practice your faith you will not judge.

Apparently_Im_The_Grumpy_One's avatar

@cazzie
Well I’m glad you value my opinions. :)

I still don’t see what hurtful thing I’ve done. But, moving on seems to be in the best interest of this thread.

I apologize @Hypocrisy_Central if I caused a derailment here.

cazzie's avatar

@Apparently_Im_The_Grumpy_One odd…. you think I value your opinions? Where did that come from? I value that you understand a small portion of what you are meant to believe because of the label you set upon yourself. for that, I will give you credit.

Judi's avatar

It’s hurtful because you’re saying you don’t agree with who they are! You don’t agree with their personhood. I didn’t at all say the same thing about you. I questioned your opinion, not your essence, and I was really careful to describe MY experience with repentance, not put it off on anyone else.

Pachy's avatar

Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

Luke 6:37–42; Romans 14:1–12

Pied_Pfeffer's avatar

@Hypocrisy_Central This is a GQ, and I’m glad that you asked it.

The simple answer is that unless a Fluther member who is Christian, gay and has a partner answers, none of us are likely to know. Even then, their response won’t represent everyone that fits into all three categories.

If you are truly serious about finding an answer to this question, then I am going to ask you to invest a little over one hour of your time to listen to a Christian who has devoted a tremendous amount of time to research this topic. Basically, it boils down to three factors:
1. Misinterpretation of specific words
2. Misunderstanding of specific biblical quotes without a broader context
3. Societal customs of the time that a specific text was written that have since changed and and are reflected in various versions of the Bible based upon when they were written/translated

I encourage everyone, Christian or not, who has a vested interest in seeking the truth to uncover the OT and NT stance on homosexuality to watch this video. The Bible and Homosexuality

Dutchess_III's avatar

The same way Christian couples openly don’t follow the God they claim to be following. My BIL’s mother left her husband of 18 years, my BIL’s father, to run away with the priest at the church (Catholic) that she went to. She left her kids behind. The husband is still preaching. Apparently they expect God to make allowances for them.
They are rabidly against same sex marriages.

jerv's avatar

Define “Christian”.

Admit it, there is a lot of diversity under that heading. That sweet grandmother playing Bingo who is shocked by the word “Darn!” is just as much a follower of Christ as Josh Duggar, so I see no way this question can be answered without a blatant, “No True Scotsman…!” fallacy showing up.

That diversity is how a same-sex couple can claim to be Christian; their sexual orientation doesn’t prevent them from accepting Christ as their Lord and Savior ever bit as sincerely as you do.

Dutchess_III's avatar

And divorced people accept Christ as their Lord and Savior every bit as sincerely as you do. So do murders and rapists. They just figure they’re forgiven….everyone who thinks God makes allowances for them figure they’ll be forgiven.

What a tangled web we weave….

keobooks's avatar

@jerv you said “define Christian”. I’ve tried to define it by saying almost the exact same that this link says. When I did this, several people came forth with other bible verses to prove me wrong.

What’s really interesting about the link, is that I think the writers did not imagine that while they posted this for nonbelievers to read and consider converting to Christianity, it never occurred to them that gay people could find and read their page as well. Here is the “damning” (pardon the pun) quote:

How do I become a Christian?

“This is the best part. Because of His love for us, God has made it exceedingly simple to become a Christian. All you have to do is receive Jesus as your Savior, fully accepting His death as the sufficient sacrifice for your sins (John 3:16), fully trusting Him alone as your Savior (John 14:6; Acts 4:12). Becoming a Christian is not all about rituals, going to church, or doing certain things while refraining from other things. Becoming a Christian is all about having a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. A personal relationship with Jesus Christ, through faith, is what makes a person a Christian.”

Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/become-a-Christian.html#ixzz3eKRmUTDh

Emphases made by me.

I seriously wonder what the person who created this page would say if a gay or lesbian person used this very paragraph to defend their right to call themselves a Christian to him or her. I mean who knows.. Maybe this person happens to be a socially liberal Christian, but when I read the page, that wasn’t at all the tone I read. This exactly what I was told growing up, bold text and all. And I went to one of the most conservative Christian schools in the country for a few years.

It stuck in my head so much that when I first heard that most Christians believed that gay people couldn’t be Christians, it deeply confused me. It seemed that if gay people couldn’t be Christians, then what I was told about how to define yourself as a Christian was a lie. I imagined a gay man doing exactly what he was told to do in that paragraph, and lived by the words in that paragraph. When he died, on his way to hell, an angel would tell him that those rules didn’t apply to gay people.

I didn’t renounce Christianity after that. I assumed that the paragraph above was true, but that many Christians wanted to be justified in their personal disgust of homosexuality, that they allowed themselves to think a biblically incorrect thought. Basically, I thought that it wasn’t Christianity’s fault that people were warping the bible so badly. To me, the religion wasn’t bad—the people were bad. I went out of my way to find churches that accepted practicing gay and lesbian people. And thankfully, I found out there were many churches out there.

I was afraid that I would only find “liberal” churches that allowed you to ignore whatever bible verses you didn’t like. At the time, I was VERY conservative about the scriptures. I believed you needed to believe that the bible was to be accepted as whole and cherry picking out only the verses you agreed with was worse than disagreeing with the entire bible. As much as I believed that gay people should be welcome at church, I couldn’t go to some ala carte church. (Quite ironic that I’m Unitarian now. Theologically, they were the epitome of exactly what I did NOT want in a church at the time.)

I discovered that there were many theologically conservative churches that managed to include gay people. Instead of throwing the verses out, they found alternate interpretations. All of these interpretations were made by serious theologians who were very careful in their approach.

Anyway, I thought the whole page was enlightening.

Darth_Algar's avatar

@Dutchess_III

My preacher aunt who’s been married five times really wants gays to respect the sanctity of marriage.

Hypocrisy_Central's avatar

@cazzie Which one of the 10 Commandments say fall in love with the same sex? But whether or not you are in love or not has no bearing on sexual immorality. You do know what the Bible say about that and how it done, being the expert theologian you are?
You know the Bible so well, I am sure you found that one, lurve count don’t make correct anything.

@Darth_Algar The 10 Commandments say nothing about homosexuality. More importantly neither does Jesus Christ.
The 10 Commandments say nothing about sexing up your sister or brother or anyone of any age, and Christ did not either, so I guess you are saying anything not mentioned by Christ or the Commandments has a green light? See how easy it is to make the Bible say anything out of context? But getting back to the question, surely if you know the Bible as well as you seem to claim, does the Bible mention anything about homosexuality and if so, what does your Bible say, and what do the other Bibles say?

@bossob Who’s right and who’s wrong is in the heart of the believer. Discourse in this setting will enlighten no one.
Yeah…..keep believing that and see how that works for you once you stop breathing for good.

@LostInParadise Do you follow everything in the Old Testament?
Maybe you should bone up as to what Covenant those who are Believers of Christ are under, then you would not make such a gaff like that question.

@dabbler The only passages in “The Bible” about homosexuality are in the Old Testament.
I see you were asleep in class too…

@syz Your version of Christianity.
My version is God’s version But you and the rest can duck, dodge and hide all you want. So far no one has reconciled same-sex couples and the Bible and a Christian faith based on Jesus, if so, pull out the scripture and prove me wrong? Oh…..none of you can’t because there is no truth to be found.

SavoirFaire Make your choice, @Hypocrisy_Central.
When you complete those you chose or add those you conveniently skipped over.

@Judi How can you claim to be Christian as you sit there typing in your mixed fiber underwear?
As I said to another, if you have to ask that, then you really do not know the Bible. I can answer but before I know if I am speaking with someone with a house on the Rock, or a house on sand, do you know which Covenant Believers live under and how it differs from that which that rule was made?

@Apparently_Im_The_Grumpy_One I harbor no ill will toward gay people. I think they are wrong but it’s not my place to judge that.
I have no ill-will towards gays, I don’t believe it is their fault directly, just staying there and not being delivered. Those who claim to be of Christ, that would put them in the family, and the Bible clearly gives Believers the authority to judge the fruit of other members, those gays who are not in the family are judge by the law already, and God will do that Himself when He finally pulls the plug on this cracker barrel. After another people have strung out enough rope to hang themselves on, I am going to put it to them in a way they either have to put up, or shut up, and that is with righteous authority.

I apologize @Hypocrisy_Central if I caused a derailment here.
How can there be? No one ever got on the road because they knew they could not drive the limit, and the road is quite narrow and curvy and few find it. They have done nothing to show how one can be a gay Christian and be in-line with God, they have tried to make every excuse under the sun because that is all they have.

@Pachy Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
Luke 6:37–42; Romans 14:1–12
Soundbites only count in politics and those lurve hunting. Out of context it seems to say what people in the wrong want it to say. Who was He speaking to and why was He speaking to them in that manner? Don’t answer, you don’t know, and you will further confuse people. But….going off how you are trying to frame it, I am willing to be judged by the standard of the Bible so I guess that is the measure I will use when making any judgement on anyone else. If you don’t know the measuring standard of the Bible then you can’t comment on how I do it.

@Pied_Pfeffer I plan to get to that and see what it says.

@Dutchess_III Apparently they expect God to make allowances for them.
People are going to make bonehead decisions; if we were capable on being perfect we would not need Christ. As people popularly like to use, you do not know what was in their heart. Do you know if they repented of their action? If one repents (you DO know what that is, right?) that is one thing, to live openly in sin making no attempt to repent is another.

@keobooks It stuck in my head so much that when I first heard that most Christians believed that gay people couldn’t be Christians, it deeply confused me.
Not quite true, gay people can be Christian if they are not in a same-sex union and celibate. If not, they are no different than any other fornicator, I guess the gay leaning church Bible allows fornication too.

I assumed that the paragraph above was true, but that many Christians wanted to be justified in their personal disgust of homosexuality, that they allowed themselves to think a biblically incorrect thought.
Who is that? Doesn’t fit me, don’t know any Believer it does, though there may be some that do.

Darth_Algar's avatar

@Hypocrisy_Central

Sure, the Bible has mentions of homosexuality, and they’re pretty much all in context of old Jewish customs and understanding that folks like you claim don’t apply to Christians when it comes to things like eating shellfish, wearing mixed fabrics or shaving your beards.

keobooks's avatar

I wish I had time to address each point in that train wreck you just posted. I don’t so I’ll have to go down to mine.

Not quite true, gay people can be Christian if they are not in a same-sex union and celibate. If not, they are no different than any other fornicator, I guess the gay leaning church Bible allows fornication too.

1. Thank you for opening up your reply with a first sentence that exactly proves my point that I was trying to say. I will cut and paste the instructions for becoming and being a Christian again. Please take time to refer to the Bible verses before you brush me away.

How do I become a Christian?

“This is the best part. Because of His love for us, God has made it exceedingly simple to become a Christian. All you have to do is receive Jesus as your Savior, fully accepting His death as the sufficient sacrifice for your sins (John 3:16), fully trusting Him alone as your Savior (John 14:6; Acts 4:12). Becoming a Christian is not all about rituals, going to church, or doing certain things while refraining from other things. Becoming a Christian is all about having a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. A personal relationship with Jesus Christ, through faith, is what makes a person a Christian.”

OK, please show me where you see the special separate instructions for gay people. I don’t see them. In fact, I see a special little highlighted part that specifically states that doing certain things while refraining from others was not how you defined whether or not you are Christian. This is because according to God, every single human is going to screw things up by doing little more than existing. They will sin accidentally or on purpose. So God made the requirements for salvation as simple as possible.

Secondly, considering all of the painful efforts I went through making sure that I went to a biblically conservative church, and the time I took to post about those efforts I find you flippant assholish remark about the church allowing fornication because it allows homosexuality to be deeply offensive.

I don’t have time to write about this because I have company over. So I’ll just tell you that this information is highly secret and that handling the knowledge is more dangerous than a toddler with a chainsaw.

Just kidding..I’ll tell you sometime this evening.

SavoirFaire's avatar

@Hypocrisy_Central “When you complete those you chose or add those you conveniently skipped over.”

I explicitly claimed to be giving only a sampling, so this is a rather lame response. In any case, do you deny that the Bible tells the story of a God interested in love, forgiveness, and the return of lost sheep to His flock? If so, it seems you have rather missed the entire point. And I’m sorry if it makes you uncomfortable to realize that it is doing Satan’s work to cast people out of God’s community on your own authority, but it is not my job to make you comfortable.

“They have done nothing to show how one can be a gay Christian and be in-line with God, they have tried to make every excuse under the sun because that is all they have.”

This is highly disingenuous. First, you did not ask how one can be a gay Christian and be in line with God. You asked how someone could claim to be both Christian and in a same-sex relationship. These are importantly different questions and invite importantly different answers.

Insofar as all people are sinners, it is not inconsistent to be both Christian and a sinner. So even if we were to accept that being gay is a sin, it is still possible to be gay and be a Christian. Christianity is about reconciliation with God, not perfection—as it must be given that the Bible itself says that perfection is impossible for human beings.

Secondly, I linked to a previous response that shows why the case for homosexuality being a sin is tenuous (at best). You may disagree with the argument given there—though you have said nothing to refute it—but it is a blatant lie (aka “violation of the ninth commandment”) to claim that no one has even tried to show how one could be both gay and in line with God.

syz's avatar

“My version is God’s version But you and the rest can duck, dodge and hide all you want. So far no one has reconciled same-sex couples and the Bible and a Christian faith based on Jesus, if so, pull out the scripture and prove me wrong? Oh…..none of you can’t because there is no truth to be found.”-

Oh please. Even if you believe the Bible to be more that a fiction, there’s absolutely no way to ignore that it has been rewritten, revised, and altered innumerable times by that all-so-fallable species, man.

Your belief that only you can be right is the height of hubris. I only wish there was some sort of afterlife, ‘cause I feel certain that you’d be met with “Ah, dude, you got it all wrong. Too bad for you. Judgmental bigots go downstairs. ”

syz (35649points)“Great Answer” (4points)
keobooks's avatar

If @Hypocrisy_Central manages to make it into heaven under his own rules, he’s going to be very lonely, as he’ll be the only one there. I mean… Who doesn’t sin at all? Never? Not even a stray thought or daydream about sinning is allowed. Even if he’s totally saint like, I’m sure he’s had a stray thought or two about smacking a few flutherers around with a lead pipe.

I bet even Mother Theresa had a stray lusty thought or two that she forgot to ask forgiveness over. (Now you have an image in your mind of what sort of lusty thoughts Mother Theresa might have had. That may or may not lead you to thinking of her in a…compromising position. You’re welcome.)

@cazzie hahahahaha!

jerv's avatar

“My version is God’s version.”

All Christians say that; Baptists, Episcopalians, Catholics, Mormons, Northern Conservative Fundamentalist Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912… the whole lot of them.

keobooks's avatar

For all our sakes, I hope that the Christian Universalists are the ultimate winners in that argument. They believe, so you don’t have to!

And while I am Unitarian Universalist, that doesn’t mean that I assume even believe that universalism is true. I just hope that if any religion turns out to be true, I’d like it to be Universalism

Hypocrisy_Central's avatar

@SavoirFaire Christianity is about reconciliation with God, not perfection—as it must be given that the Bible itself says that perfection is impossible for human beings.
Aside from what some have said about being Christian having nothing or little to do with belief in God, if it is about reconciliation what does that mean to you? Does it mean God ignores sin, if so, I may have missed it in all the reading and all the Bibles I have studied; share the passage?

@syz Oh please. Even if you believe the Bible to be more that a fiction, there’s absolutely no way to ignore that it has been rewritten, revised, and altered innumerable times by that all-so-fallable species, man.
There we go. Attack the truthfulness of the Bible when one cannot make it say what they want to answer the question. Duck, dodge and hide at its best.

stanleybmanly's avatar

Well perfection being impossible in man, one would suppose a rational deity smart enough not to entrust such defectives with the editorial and publication requirements for his great book.

stanleybmanly's avatar

And there’s the REAL BIG problem with ALL religions and their many props (like the bible). There are always flawed and fallible human beings between God and believers.

Hypocrisy_Central's avatar

The day will come when there will be no men between God and the people, but there will also be no grace and no mercy just judgment, you step out of line, punishment will be swift and sure. I would feel sorry for anyone under that rule, but God will rule with an iron scepter.

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syz's avatar

You do realize that “I can prove the Bible by using the Bible” is an idiotic argument, right?

syz (35649points)“Great Answer” (8points)
Hypocrisy_Central's avatar

^ You do realize that “I can prove the Bible by using the Bible” is an idiotic argument, right?
What is idiotic is trying to use the Bible to prove the Bible wrong, or there is no God when you do not believe the Bible is true to begin with. That would be like a person who doesn’t believe in wizards, witches, or people who can fly around on brooms trying to prove that is unreal or fake by referencing Harry Potter books, especially when he already attest that he believes them to be fiction, nothing more; trying top use the Bible when you don’t believe in it or what is written in it is like that.

jerv's avatar

“What is idiotic is trying to use the Bible to prove the Bible wrong”

When two statements are mutually exclusive or contradictory, one is true and the other is false.

When two statements that cannot both be true at the same time come from the same source, that source is either right and wrong or wrong and right unless both statements are wrong. In any event, it’s at least partially (and possibly completely) wrong.

The Bible has multiple instances of self-contradiction.

Therefore, the Bible is at least partially wrong.

You are correct that it cannot be proven completely wrong, but that’s as far as it goes.

Hypocrisy_Central's avatar

@jerv The Bible has multiple instances of self-contradiction.
I have not found any.

If the Bible is false, then it is, and you cannot use verses to prove it is false because the verses you use are thus false. It would be like trying to use a Starfleet manual on temporal mechanics to dispute time travel. If time travel is unreal and doesn’t exist, anything written on it is non-existent. If you believe the Starfleet manual on temporal mechanics is fiction, to try to use this fiction to dispute time travel is ludicrous.

keobooks's avatar

@jerv—bible verses lose all meaning and power when they appear in a website. They must be directly copied out of a paper edition or they don’t count.

Dutchess_III's avatar

The thing is, we can all run to our Bibles (I have two) and double check!

Inara27's avatar

“Self-contradiction” only means that one part of the Bible does not agree with another part. In itself, it does not prove the whole of the Bible false, only parts, just as @jerv said. The trouble begins when we force the Bible to be the unfailing word of God, despite all of the human involved in it’s writing.

Many religions have their own “unfailing words of god”. Which is right? None are, I suspect.

Dutchess_III's avatar

Sure it means ever bit of it can be brought into question. The Bible is (supposedly) the infallible world of God. “Fallible: not capable of being wrong or making mistakes.”

When one part of the Bible says one thing, and another says another there are only two explanations:
1) If you believe God is the actual author of the Bible, then God is fallible.
2) It was written by fallible men and therefore is not the literal Word of God.

Judi's avatar

I found this interesting when contemplating scripture.
As a Christian, my quest is for the heart of God and living my life in a way I hope he finds pleasing.
It is important to remember that these sacred textts were chosen by a group of men, who were doing the best they could with their understanding at the time.
I believe, as a Christian, that God is still speaking. I think that when Christians live in fear, they are being deceived.
I do think these sacred texts have been inspired by God, but I also know that they were still written by men and to read them without the context of culture and to pass judgment without studying the language and possible translation issues is silly.
The overreaching theme is that of redemption, love and resurrection. If you take a scentence in isolation and don’t look at it through that lense then you get a distortion that divides rather than unites.
Part of me wants to go on and on about what I mean by redirection, but I’ll save that for another post. :-)

keobooks's avatar

By biggest contradiction that bothers me that this verse is used against the Book of Mormon bring part of the Bible. The verse states that nothing should be added or subtracted from the word of God. Yet this verse was written several hundred years before any books in the New Testament were written. If you obeyed this verse, there would be no New Testament at all.

Judi's avatar

I think a lot of Christians think the apostles sat down and said, “these books are the ones that comprise the Bible.”
I think that they would be surprised to know that it was put together by a bunch of Roman guys 500 years later.

keobooks's avatar

They also don’t realize that in 500AD, many books of the New Testament were discarded. Many for legit reasons—like they read more like Jesus fan fiction or Paul Bunyan type stories.

But there were several that were left out because the message in the book contradicted the purpose they wanted the bible to serve. There were some books that said the entire population of the world was saved by Christ whether they believedor not. There were books that said we could all potentially become Jesus for ourselves if we worked at it. There was no need for the church. You could do it alone. This didn’t help the church maintaining control over Christendom. They wanted to make sure that people were afraid of going to hell if they disobeyed church doctrine. So anything that suggested this may not be the case was removed from canon.

Dutchess_III's avatar

I know, right? Who in the Catholic church decided what books to keep and what to get rid of?

keobooks's avatar

This article contains the history of all of the known edits to the bible. It doesn’t tell you why the books were removed, but it does tell you who removed them.

Here2_4's avatar

I was the one who insisted they scrap that bit about, “Thou shalt wash thy garments all by hand, ever and until the end of time.”
What has been found in the Dead Sea Scrolls thus far, and what about the more recently discovered books with metal pages? Is there anything new from them, or do they just repeat what has already been printed?

Dutchess_III's avatar

Nice info @keobooks. As an agnostic it really leaves me shaking my head in disbelief. People are willing to die over what some random men chose to put in the Bible.

Hypocrisy_Central's avatar

@jerv Checked out two of these so-called issues, but they amounted to nothing, whoever the person trying to use them are, a child with a chainsaw would be more in control than they. I would debunk them point by point, but why? You have your mind made up already.

Dutchess_III's avatar

I’m listening, @Hypocrisy_Central. If they make sense I will listen.
If it’s “Because God Magic” I will disregard it.

Fire away.

Hypocrisy_Central's avatar

@Dutchess_III I’m listening, @Hypocrisy_Central. If they make sense I will listen.
If it’s “Because God Magic” I will disregard it.
We might as well shut it down right here. You seek a limited God, one who cannot do anything greater than man. If He could do nothing greater than man, He would not be a God at all but just another god. God made the whole universe and everything in this dimension. You seem to think a person who could do that, could not keep animals from eating each other, pooping the place up, causing a virgin to give birth, He made the virgin and gave her life, and He cannot control anything else if He wished? Just go one and believe this is all there is, go make whoever happy you need to give this vapor of an existence some meaning so those you leave can plant flowers, and maximize your time. There is nothing more I can say to you, I will just pray the light comes on before you take your last breath.

Dutchess_III's avatar

You couldn’t help it, could you! Well, I understand…it’s the only answer you have and that is God Magic ”....a person who could do that, could not keep animals from eating each other, pooping the place up, causing a virgin to give birth, He made the virgin and gave her life…”
So you’re right. we should shut it down now and you just go on with your superstitions and stop trying to convince us Magic is Real.

Darth_Algar's avatar

I’ve always marveled at how a supposedly omnipotent, all-powerful being, who created the Universe and everything in it and who is outside it and its laws, yet is still subject to mundane, petty human emotions such as anger and jealousy.

Hypocrisy_Central's avatar

@Dutchess_III So you’re right. we should shut it down now and you just go on with your superstitions and stop trying to convince us Magic is Real.
I am not superstitious, but there is nothing I can say to you. I am convinced nothing short of God striking you with something you could not explain away as science would get you to take the blinders off. I will just pray the Lord keeps granting you mercy and maybe, the light might come on, but if not……you cannot say you did not know, you were told. Now go live life, it is all you have, so do it as big as you possibly can.

@Darth_Algar I’ve always marveled at how a supposedly omnipotent, all-powerful being, who created the Universe and everything in it and who is outside it and its laws, yet is still subject to mundane, petty human emotions such as anger and jealousy.
The problem is man is so limited in thinking they cannot understand or connect the dots on the context of those attributes God has. If you never seek or ask, you never will know, and always be off in understanding. But as I said to @Dutchess_III don’t worry about it, you need to do as much as you can with this time you have because in your imagination it is all you will ever have. God bless you anyhow…..

Dutchess_III's avatar

If you pray, you are superstitious.

If you do something because you think “God” will praise you, you are superstitious.

If you don’t do something, not because you don’t want to do it, but because God will punish you, you are superstitious.

“Superstition is the belief in supernatural causality—that one event causes another without any natural process linking the two events—such as astrology, religion, omens, witchcraft, prophecies, etc., that contradicts natural science.[1]”

Darth_Algar's avatar

@Hypocrisy_Central

Oh trust me, I sought and I asked plenty. All I ever got were vague, elusive answers much along the same lines as what you offer.

Dutchess_III's avatar

(I used to pray. Sometimes it “worked” sometimes it didn’t. Since I quit praying, everything seems to be working out just the same. Some times it does, some times it doesn’t.)

Blondesjon's avatar

With these most recent religious threads I am beginning to gain a deeper understanding of just exactly why Jesus wept.

Dutchess_III's avatar

Serously

ayodele_komolafe's avatar

when ever man senses a need to live by principles he goes all out to revolt. He may not even have a good reason to revolt but does that just because he’s been asked to live by rules.. So he display all sorts of rebelion (recklessness, thugery, bestiality, homosexuality e.t.c) but we should know that freedom isn’t the absence of chains. It is actualy a decision to be bounded by prefered chains!

cazzie's avatar

@ayodele_komolafe homosexuality doesn’t belong on your list.

Dutchess_III's avatar

beastiality?

cazzie's avatar

@Dutchess_III come now, Dutchess, you remember that little rebellious stage you went through in high school? Sneaking cigarettes from your mother’s purse and then going to the farm where the big stud horses lived? Remember? It’s what I thought about when I was feeling like disobeying my parent’s rules. That and deciding I wanted to kiss my girlfriend. ¨sarcasm

Dutchess_III's avatar

giggling! Didn’t we smoke some ganja before we went to the farm? Cuz I don’t remember it. Was it good for him?

Yeah, when I decided to accept agnosticism the first thing I wanted to do was become a lesbian thug. But I didn’t. Because I’m not a lesbian or a thug. It was SOOOO inconvenient for my rebellion.

ayodele_komolafe's avatar

@cazzie and on what list would homosexuality be? #aboutToBeOriented

Dutchess_III's avatar

The List of Humans, @ayodele_komolafe. Somewhere you made the ridiculous leap that,without God, people rebel and become (among other ridiculous things) homosexuals, like it’s a bad thing.

ayodele_komolafe's avatar

@cazzie and just where in that post did I say they aren’t humans?? Please draw my attention to it.

Dutchess_III's avatar

You never said they weren’t human. You said, (quote) ”[When man revolts] ... he display(s) all sorts of rebelion (recklessness, thugery, bestiality, homosexuality e.t.c)

We’re just curious where you came up with this list? And how is it you put “homosexuality” and “bestiality” side by side?

(And this is @Dutchess_III talking to you now. @cazzie will chime in soon.)

keobooks's avatar

Apparently, @ayodele_komolafe is trying to get opinions on premarital sex in another thread. I wonder why homosexuality is a no-brainier sin in this thread but fornication is up for debate in another? I guess if you’re going to pick and choose which sins are OK to commit, you might as well just commit the ones that you personally want to commit.

Dutchess_III's avatar

As I said, sexual sins committed by homosexuals aren’t really sins.

cazzie's avatar

@ayodele_komolafe Homosexuality is on a list of well documented, normal sexual behaviors by humans and several other animals. It is not a mental disorder. It is within normal, accepted parameters. It hurts no consenting adult to share physical, sexual pleasure with another adult, given precautions taken and now easily tested to stop the spread of diseases like HPV, chlamydia, and Gonorrhea etc. (and, of course, unwanted pregnancy) We now have a vaccine for HPV and it will save thousands of women’s lives.

The Dark Ages are being banished. We, the majority, choose to live in the light of love. If you don’t, then, I hear there are caves that have been recently vacated.

NerdyKeith's avatar

Well, what you have to understand is that not every Christian interprets the bible in the same way. And not every Christian is a biblical literalist. A lot of gay Christians simply look at what Jesus said (or what he supposedly said). Christ never mentioned anything about homosexuality.

Now in saying that, there are some gay Christians who are biblical literalists. They usually remain celibate. It wouldn’t be my personal choice, but then again I’m a modern deist and don’t share their biblical faith.

Dutchess_III's avatar

A modern deist…interesting. I just had a former coworker, who is fairly well educated and a self proclaimed genius post on Facebook that her son said, “I don’t believe in monsters, I only believe in Jesus and God.”
Everyone was going “Smart kid!”
“Praise god!”

I said, “That’s funny! What about ghosts and angels?” I mean, ghosts aren’t real, but angels are…right?

NerdyKeith's avatar

@Dutchess_III Well there are a lot of very intelligent religious persons and I have no problem admitting that. I just view their faith as a topic we don’t see eye to eye on.

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