In my observation in any society it has been and always will be a “Monkey see Monkey do” as far as peoples likes, dislikes and prejudices. YouTube is littered with video’s of youngins next to their parents holding up “Black Lives Matters”, “Tax the 1%”, “Kill the Jews” signs and more videos of kids spewing epitaphs, racial hatred, religious, anti-Semitic vitriol and even cutting the heads off their supposed enemies. There is no way on earth these young kids can know the right or wrong of what they are doing….they are just doing what they are told or what their parents are doing.

This is only magnified when you have tight knit communities of like minded Religious and or Nationalities perpetuating the hatreds they learned from their parents or brought with them from where they immigrated from. And things will never ever get better until we have elected officials and civic leaders who have the courage to lead their people to be more tolerant of each other and parents who rise above the prejudices of their upbringing to teach their kids the other people who don’t look and pray the way you do are not monsters.

@Cruiser This is only magnified when you have tight knit communities of like minded Religious and or Nationalities perpetuating the hatreds they learned from their parents or brought with them from where they immigrated from.
Even to say that any supposed negative trait is increased because of one’s religious beliefs is something grandfathered in more than fact. I can say, but off the comments and conversations you have here in Fluther, I would not bet that 80% or more of your friends, or close connections are strong Believers or churchy people. Without the benefit of being exposed in close fashion to people of many different faiths that you see their ”everyday face” and not just what they put on Sunday morning, it would be difficult to know how true it was or not. Those who brought stuff with them from their culture overseas is more concrete (even if not absolute) because nationalistic views tend to span beyond social, religious, or economic levels, etc. There is a lot of perceptions excepted that has really nothing to do with prejudice of a person race, or gender wise. Sometimes it is a lifestyle thing, such as believing it is bad to eat pork, in any fashion, or at any time.

And things will never ever get better until we have elected officials and civic leaders who have the courage to lead their people to be more tolerant of each other and parents who rise above the prejudices of their upbringing to teach their kids the other people who don’t look and pray the way you do are not monsters.
Civic leaders can do little in changing the perceptions of people’s habits or likes. Some prejudice people have doesn’t have a specific face on it. For example, and it is not the only one, the rich doesn’t have a particular face on it, it might have some time ago, but now there are so many different nationalities that share in the wealth pie, you can’t point to one nationality and say they represent the rich.

@Hypocrisy_Central __I would not bet that 80% or more of your friends, or close connections are strong Believers or churchy people.__
That would not be a good bet as most of my friends and relatives do not participate in the Sunday Shuffle. Most are religious but more so have found their own form of Spirituality that guides their lives in a freer form of functional life guidance methodology than can be found in brick and mortar places of worship.

__Civic leaders can do little in changing the perceptions of people’s habits or likes.__ I respectfully and strongly disagree with you on your point. Take the recent shooting where police took the lives of young black men and withing minutes we have our President and Al Sharpton on TV saying how horrific and tragic it was these young black men were gunned down by the police. Those words are beyond impactful upon the citizens where these young black men lived and died. Black lives matter gave birth to a rally cry for misguided righteousness we have never seen before in the history of this country. Not once have I seen a black civic leader step up and address their constituents to remind them that these young black men were involved in criminal activity and ignored the repeated commands of Law Enforcement Officers to stop and comply with their commands. Had these young black men respected and complied with the police….there is no question in my mind they would still be alive and additionally I believe we could have avoided a large part of the ensuing drama and riots had our President and other civic leaders stepped up as a leader should do in these situations and encourage restraint and better understanding of the situations at hand instead of igniting a rally cry of black lives matter. What they should have said is….parents teach your kids to respect others especially the police as all lives matter especially your own which you will keep if you do not steal and disrespect Law Enforcement Officers.

@Cruiser Those words are beyond impactful upon the citizens where these young black men lived and died.
In the neighborhoods those men lived or similar neighborhoods it would have impact, but that would be because it reinforced a mindset that was there before the shooting.

Not once have I seen a black civic leader step up and address their constituents to remind them that these young black men were involved in criminal activity and ignored the repeated commands of Law Enforcement Officers to stop and comply with their commands.
I have not followed the incidents but I hardly think anything short of them standing over someone with threat of death would warrant killing them. To say, well, they knew not to commit a crime and had they done so, they’d still be alive is the same as telling the pickpockets in old London you should not have filched that wallet it would have prevented that noose from going around your neck. Just because it may be the law, it can be missed used.

What they should have said is….parents teach your kids to respect others especially the police as all lives matter especially your own which you will keep if you do not steal and disrespect Law Enforcement Officers.
In reality it is about as effective as telling girls you don’t want a baby before you are ready keep off your back and let no boy come between you and your Gloria Vanderbilt, or you don’t want to be homeless and spun out keep off the drugs, neither has worked. If they are involved in criminal activity there are deeper causes and effects that created it that simply saying avoid it won’t cure. It is also a two-way street; the cops need to respect those they serve. I read an interview that was done with Paulette Brown, President Elect of the American bar Association where she highlighted how law enforcement profile people without really thinking about it. How if it were a case of vandalism if it were white youth doing it the thought would be to take them home to their parents but if it were Black or Latino youth, to arrest them and charge them to the hilt. All that falls to ideas or beliefs that was formed and believed, even if subconsciously, by society or peer groups and there may have been no fact to support the thinking.

I try to argue against ingrained, outdated beliefs or behaviors through logical discussion. Sometimes it even gets heated, but my points are nearly always supportable with facts and new information the other person doesn’t already know. (I have been wrong a time or two, too, and have been glad that I learned something new.)

I also use a lot of ‘empathy simulation’ for lack of a better phrase. If I’m talking to someone who believes gay people shouldn’t be allowed to get married, for example, I’d say something like, “Imagine it is your son we’re talking about. Imagine he’s gay, and is deeply in love. He has found the person he wants to spend his life with. Would you want to deny him the happiness and the rights you and I take for granted?” This is very effective, if the other person is actually listening, and not just fighting to fight.

If it’s not someone close to me, I won’t put much effort into it, because why should they listen to me? But if it’s someone who knows me, loves me, or at least respects me, I will take all the time needed to fully engage.

Also, what a load of crap, @Cruiser, blaming the black kids for getting themselves killed. NONE of the crimes they committed (and in some cases there was NO crime committed) were death penalty-worthy.

While it is not possible to come up with an objective standard for right and wrong, such matters do reduce to the interpretation of two general principles.
1. Do not harm other people
2. People must be treated equally and fairly

Old prejudices die hard, but the long term trend has been to ditch those prejudices in favor of the above two principles. For example, racial profiling still exists, but we have moved past a time when lynching was considered appropriate. Women are still discriminated against, but we are past the time when it was considered acceptable for a man to beat his wife. Homosexuals are still discriminated against but the trend has been to accept gay marriage and treat it equally to heterosexual marriage.

I would like to believe that the rule of reason will continue to gain on narrowmindedness.

@augustlan How can you argue my comments as a load of crap??? I cannot argue against many instances where lethal force was not the best option available and it most cases it was proven to be a legal option. In today’s day and age where a Law Enforcement Officer has to enforce our laws knowing each and every person they engage may very well be out to harm or kill them…the instances you and I refer to are prime examples as to how highly charged these tragic outcomes are. If you are ever pulled over by a cop…ask yourself why is he/she standing towards the rear of my car window with their hand on their gun and you may better appreciate the threat ANY person they engage poses to them because of the many ambushes police have lost their lives to.

I will maintain in each and every instance that “Black Lives Matter” supports, had these individuals simply complied with the LEO’s command’s however right or wrong you may judge them to be….these people would still be alive. It is that simple!

The same cannot be said for the many policemen who have been assassinated in cold blood as retribution for those young (criminals) that should still be alive today. It is sad that not only these young kids are dead but so are those police officers who were trying their best to do their job to protect us.

I like you mourn the senseless loss of life, but I mourn more for all the other kids who are being raised to fear and disrespect the police because the media and people choose to celebrate the loss of lives of criminals who died because they did not respect and obey the commands of the police who are there to protect them and not needlessly kill them.

Yes…the loss of life in each and every instance could have been avoided which only highlights how much work on both sides of the equation still has to be done to avoid future senseless deaths.

@augustlan I try to argue against ingrained, outdated beliefs or behaviors through logical discussion.
There are outdated and/or illogical ideas you still hold dear, of which I have observed here in other threads, thought I can generally remember only one.

I also use a lot of ‘empathy simulation’ for lack of a better phrase. If I’m talking to someone who believes gay people shouldn’t be allowed to get married, for example,..]
There are a lot of issues other than the ”gay issue” in which logical understanding from the perspective of those involved would give the situation a whole different outcome.

@LostInParadise While it is not possible to come up with an objective standard for right and wrong, such matters do reduce to the interpretation of two general principles.
1. Do not harm other people
2. People must be treated equally and fairly
That is good in theory, but given the visceral reactions on threads dealing with the latest terrorist attacks, some would think it good business to wipe these people out; hardly equal treatment or treating them as they would themselves, even if the persons in questions are not adhering to it themselves. That is one reason why when the US people found out there was torturing going on in the Gitmo gulag in Cuba many remained silent, others tried to redefine what torture was. The prevailing thought if breaking the arm of one of them animals saves 100s to 1,000s of innocent lives, then it was justified; doing harm to one of a few.

I would like to believe that the rule of reason will continue to gain on narrowmindedness.
The mistake is to think all old thinking or preconceived ideals revolve around some form of bigotry. A lot of antiquated ideas has no face, or is not per se directed at anyone but a process, way of life, or way of looking at life. That is why in many ways it happens and/or is perpetrated by a person subconsciously, for instance the idea that a woman wearing a micro mini with a sun top and no bra will be raped quicker than a woman in a power business suit. I am sure if one crunched the numbers of all the rape cases in a given year only a small portion would have been wearing a mini at the time of their attack. Yet, the idea somehow is still believed as a truth with no definitive supporting facts.

@Cruiser In today’s day and age where a Law Enforcement Officer has to enforce our laws knowing each and every person they engage may very well be out to harm or kill them…]
In today’s age I think people are more aware of what has always been a part of what police do; profiling. In the interview I read with the President Elect of the American bar Association, she mentioned that shortly before the interview she had moved into a new upscale neighborhood, she was in her Benz late at night with her grey hoodie on. A cop stopped her (more than not because he thought she was a black male), but when he found out she was a woman and a senior woman to boot, his whole demeanor changed. Why is that, shouldn’t cops be treating everyone as a long-awaited friend? Just as you say the cop has to anticipate everyone they stop will try to do them in, if you are in the hood, you have to anticipate any cop rolling through there will jam you up to go on a ”fishing expedition” to see if he can catch you ”dirty” or with some type of warrant. The cops already see you as some criminal (why would they be stopping innocent people minding their own business? Would they do that uptown in the “burbs?) they just have to find the goods to prove it. If you are telling the truth but not what they want to hear or expect, then you are not only a criminal, but a lying one, which causes them to get more caustic since they have the guns, Tasers, and power to deny liberty.

[…ask yourself why is he/she standing towards the rear of my car window with their hand on their gun and you may better appreciate the threat ANY person they engage poses to them because of the many ambushes police have lost their lives to.
Using that criterion if one has a shop in a high crime area any woman who enters with a large stroller or diaper bag can be tailed in the store, stealthy or openly because she could be a potential shoplifter. Yeah, being a cop can be a hard job, which is what they signed on for. Do they get to reduce everyone in a given situation to a criminal? Maybe not the best application of to protect and to serve.

@Hypocrisy_Central I’m certain that I hold an outdated/illogical belief or two. Nobody’s perfect. ;) What’s the one you can think of? I totally agree that many more situations than just my example would benefit from logical understanding from all sides (and empathy).

@Cruiser If you have a reasonable fear of law enforcement (and I would strongly argue that young black men have every right to), you’re already thinking they might beat the shit out of you or kill you—no matter what you do. Trying to avoid that outcome by whatever means necessary then becomes logical.

Given those circumstances, your argument is like saying that if you don’t follow the orders of your domestic abuser – if instead you try to get away or hurt him before he can hurt you – and he ends up killing you, you deserved to get killed.

@augustlan If you have a fear of police that tells me you are up to no good and that fear is indeed reasonable as you would not want to engaged the police for fear of getting caught. That is exactly what happened with all of the sensational “black lives matter” instances. Again had they complied with the officers commands they would be alive today…it’s that simple.

@augustlan I’m certain that I hold an outdated/illogical belief or two. Nobody’s perfect. ;) What’s the one you can think of?
Mind you the other issues were on threads I sashayed through so I am not abreast of how tightly you adhered to those points or certain if I remember the details enough to mention, but on threads that were mine, I played closer attention to.

One of the most glaring holdouts of outdated or misinformed information some (maybe many) in the industrialized world, more often the US, can’t shake; the wearing of a certain undergarment by women. There is no logic or scientific fact for the need of them by, I my estimation, 50–65% of the women at least, has no need for them but in their mind will manufacture the need and avoid any admission of the real reason they choose to or the lack of fact supporting the need of it. As you say, we are all human, so somethings emotion and personal peeves short circuit logic. There have been many things in my life I thought one way, but had to retract that thinking as much as I hated it, because there was no sound logic to support something or debunk other things. Earthly logic is separated from spiritual things of faith, and even in the area of faith I had to rethink somethings that were more man and less God.

@Cruiser […If you have a fear of police that tells me you are up to no good and that fear is indeed reasonable as you would not want to engaged the police for fear of getting caught.
That barks up the same tree as saying a woman walking at night alone in a mini really wants to be sexually assaulted, or the notion, that all women who enter the sex trade have been raped, molested as kids, or is feeding a drug habit. There is no definitive proof of it. Maybe those people in question were breaking the law, or they could have been like the man shot in the back by the cop for fleeing because he did not want to be arrested for failure to pay back child support. Running from a cop, not fighting him, or shooting at him, is worthy of a death sentence? If the officer wanted to shoot, is he not trained enough to shoot him in the leg? If you were Black and you see things like that, and have been jammed up simply being on the corner in a certain neighborhood, not because you did anything, but simply being present there, you might get some understanding as to their mindset. When was the last time you were simply mowing your front yard and have the police roll up on you and wanting your ID and asked you if you lived at the residence, who else lived there, how long, etc.? How many times have you left work on swing shift and had the cops stop you for apparently no reason to see if you owned the vehicle you were driving, lived in the neighborhood your home is, or ask you why you are out so late?

God, @Cruiser, listen to yourself. Are you honestly telling me if you were a young black man you wouldn’t be afraid of the police? Black men accounted for 40 percent of the 60 unarmed deaths, even though they make up just 6 percent of the U.S. population. The Post’s analysis shows that black men were seven times more likely than white men to die by police gunfire while unarmed.

Also, you keep saying “all” of the victims were doing something wrong. One name for you, at the very least: Tamir Rice. When was the last time you heard about a white 12 year old kid being shot by police, within 2 seconds of their arrival, for having a BB gun? Many more instances of perfectly innocent black boys/men being stopped, harassed and brutalized (yet not killed) exist. Here is a famous one: James Blake.

@augustlan Your points are valid but digress from the point I made in that had those young black men obeyed the policemen’s commands they would still be alive. When I was a teenager I did not trust the police and had good reasons for it but each and every time I was pulled over or confronted by the police I did what they told me to do. Had I not and charged and attempted to attack the officer like these young black men did I probably would be full of lead too.

Cops just don’t go around shooting people without just cause and that is where you and black lives matters hand wavers are blurring reality and failing to acknowledge the real reason these young black men are dying.

I consider you to be a pretty smart person @augustlan and to not see that these young black men who died were involved in criminal activity and failed to comply with the officers commands is only giving currency to other kids to think they can commit crimes, disobey the police and get away with it or even worse to take pot shots at the police who are only trying to do their job. IMO people should rally around causes like “Common sense matters” and “respect for police matters” and if people took these messages to heart, less kids will die in the streets.

We’re just going to have to disagree on this one, @Cruiser. I get your point (they’d be alive if they’d followed commands), but it’s like saying to your child, “If you’d followed my orders, I wouldn’t have beat the living shit out of you.” It’s just not acceptable, period.

Not following a police officer’s command does not give a cop the right to shoot an unarmed person who is not a deadly threat. Especially not in the back, as he’s running away. << In this particular case, if it hadn’t been recorded by a passer-by, we’d have never known that the officer filed a completely false report about the shooting.

^ We’re just going to have to disagree on this one, @Cruiser. I get your point (they’d be alive if they’d followed commands),…]
It is a classic example of partly what came to mind when I thought of this question, he cannot fathom the facts on the ground for belief that you obey the cops because they will not do you no wrong.

@Hypocrisy_Central That is hardly true with me. I was a teenager with a hot rod Camaro and was pulled over once a week and my car searched at least once a month. I lost count how many time I had mag lights shoved into my breastbone and a gun pulled on me by the officer twice for parking on a dark street making out with my girlfriend. This does not include the dozen times I was chased through the woods by cops on foot for having a bonfire in the woods. I know firsthand the dark side of cops but also know when confronted by them and given commands you obey or the situation WILL quickly deteriorate and you will be posting bail at the very least.

Charging a cop who has his weapon drawn or in the case Auggie cites running away is just stupid and we know the end result of that stupidity. All these black lives matters should have not resulted in death by cop had the perps LISTENED and OBEYED! How fucking hard is that to understand??

@Cruiser I know firsthand the dark side of cops but also know when confronted by them and given commands you obey or the situation WILL quickly deteriorate and you will be posting bail at the very least.
And even with all of that firsthand knowledge when they rolled up on you guys with a bonfire you scattered like rabbits, you did not play the dutiful citizen and waited while everyone else ran.

All these black lives matters should have not resulted in death by cop had the perps LISTENED and OBEYED! How fucking hard is that to understand??
It was never hard for me to follow what you were thinking when you 1st told it to her. However, them getting shot in these incidents was probably predicated on how other incidents happened before theirs. How many other people who can say ”I was a teenager with a hot rod Camaro…]” did not get into altercations or got shot somehow because they were always stopped and had a Maglite shoved in their ribs? How many kids in hopped up cars would have even been on the radar had there been some cholos, vatos, or D-boys with a higher likelihood of having warrants or rolling ”dirty”? Maybe, just maybe (I don’t know, but it has happened) where you grew up, you were the low hanging fruit, a teen with a hotrod, there were no pimps, dealers, and the likes seen as worse. They got shot because they did not listen, if that is the fact, it is no different than the fact that woman who got killed fighting her attacker as oppose to just lying there and letting him has his way, or the person who got shot and killed because he refused to obey and hand over his Rolex to the man with the gun. It matters not if the person giving the orders or some criminal, not listening has that risk of getting you harmed. If you are the woman and because of past information figure you will be killed after you are raped, might make you fight like hell than get in the car or go down the alley. Likewise if you know so many people who got ”street justice” for just being on the block when you are stopped doing dirt or not, you might try to get away rather than end up a punching bag in the bull pin down at the station.

@Cruiser Oh I understand it perfectly. I just happen to think it’s a despicable viewpoint, too.