Stop being SILENT to start with!
More later….

Tax the HELL out of Churches

Stop CONSUMING.

I know the answer to this one.. BRB, American Idol is on and my McDonald’s is getting cold. Shit, I told them that I wanted two slices of cheese on my french fries. Life can be hard sometimes.

PLease define corporatist and christianist. They are words I don’t know.

I do not consider myself a silent majority or any other general label. I am active in local politics and I make my voice heard to my senators and representatives. My friends do likewise; we tend to work at the local level and have made some serious inroads.

(This question and its accompanying broadly painted generalities is hard to clarify.It seems, like last night, you have an agenda already in place.)

You go gail!

I don’t accept the premise that the country has gone and we have to take it back. I don’t think fascism is the answer to anything.

Upward has it right, stop being silent.

@gail: why don’t you get down off your pedestal and try answering the question for a change? no one cares what you consider yourself.

@em: please tell me what the question was? I could make no sense of it.

Talk by Naomi Wolf – The End of America

I’ll try not to corrupt this thread too much, but it is bigger than than American corporatism and American Christendom. Christians (as in the American voting bloc) are a pawn who’s only power in the end will be first in supporting their oppressors (assuming they are supporting the right, although I doubt we’ll see significant improvement from the left).

Transnational corporations and the elite whom they benefit are, in fact, using our government to, for example, align nations (Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran) with global oil and gas interests while simultaneous eroding our rights in order to get us dissenters “out of the way.” They manufactured consent for war via an orchestrated terror (not terrorist) attack on US soil to justify destabilizing and realigning the mid-East to allow an oil pipeline to be constructed from Turkmenistan to the Arabian Sea. Why Turkmenistan? Because it has the largest remaining oil and gas reserves on the planet. A side benefit is that opium production is back on in Afghanistan (it dropped 90% in 2000 due to Taliban edict they had a surplus, but revived after we invaded), which will allow the CIA to continue the drug trade.

Another corporatist item of interest is the global seed vault that you may have heard about in Svalbard, Norway, that is being generously funded by the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation. Sounds good, right? Oh wait, what about the silent partners involved: Monsanto, Syngenta and the Rockefeller Foundation, the same interests who have and are divorcing people from their lands in third world nations by pushing agribusiness under the auspices of “aid.” The same interests who have successfully sued Canadian farmers and taken their land when patented GMO crops “appeared” in their fields.

To answer your question, I guess part of the answer is to define the problem and see how the parts connect. As jp and pete indicate, we are feeding the beast… in most cases willingly. How many of us are willing to give up paying for mass media even though there’s evidence of their complicity in rolling with the scripted story of 9/11?

I would be interested to hear from Europeans to gauge whether their governments still fear the people.

Do you really think Christians have control of the United States? I don’t think we would have christian symbols being taken out of court rooms if the coutry were run by Christians? I’m not sure if the other word you used was meant to be Capitalism but if it is I’m not quite sure what other option you would prefer? Fascism is not what you want! Socialism may look good on the surface but ends up taking away more of your rights and puts a damper on creativity and the entrepreneurial spirit. Capitalism is given a bad rap. On the surface it seems selfish being you only do for others out of a desire for your own well being but it is the only way to encourage people to be creative and go the extra mile to build successful businesses and help others. You really should take a look at the writings of a guy named Adam Smith (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam_smith) He knew was talking about when he said “It is not from the benevolence of the butcher the brewer, or the baker that we expect our dinner, but from their regard to their own interest.”

“Fascism is not what you want! Socialism may look good on the surface but ends up taking away more of your rights and puts a damper on creativity and the entrepreneurial spirit. Capitalism is given a bad rap.” ~ dangdang

Fascism isn’t a form of Socialism, it’s a form of Capitalism.

@gail
Christianists: http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/natep/2005/04/15#a980

They have an extraordinarily narrow view of the world that they seek to
impose on the rest of us in the style of a theocracy. They want
us to teach only ideas approved by their (strict, antihistorical, and
historically unknown) view of a particular religious scripture (the NIV
version of the Christian Bible). For example, evolution shouldn’t
be taught, because it goes against the Bible (so they say). They
want to sanction no art except what they deem as acceptable by their
religious precepts. They argue that only one socio-economic
system accord with the revealed truth of their scripture (and that
happens to be the system that would benefit them the most,
incidentally). They move to institute their own version of a sharia.
They are intent on setting up Ayatollah Dobson and Mullah Omar-Perkins
as the supreme leaders, to pass judgement on all that is good and right
and all that is evil and deviant. Because all things are just so.

@dangdang

Look at the Supreme Court. Yes, Christianists are different from Christians in my book—the turn the other cheek people. The helping the poor folks.

We don’t have a Facist Government now?

@dang fas·cism Audio Help /ˈfæʃɪzəm/ Pronunciation Key – Show Spelled Pronunciation[fash-iz-uhm] Pronunciation Key – Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun 1. (sometimes initial capital letter) a governmental system led by a dictator having complete power, forcibly suppressing opposition and criticism, regimenting all industry, commerce, etc., and emphasizing an aggressive nationalism and often racism.

Let’s smell the coffee

@gail——let’s get over the fat thing, OK? Here is a confession of mine—I’ve got Man-Boobs,

Can we please move on?

@mrknowitall

You the man!

@Marina: So you are among the 25% that support the current direction of the Country?

allen: thank you for the link. It was written in early 2005; Nate at Harvard LS apparently coined the word but it certainly hasn’t caught on and is not part of the common parlance.

And I certainly am personally (if I dare have a personal opinion) very unhappy with the way that the Supreme Court has been voting. I worry about the progressives on the Court who are getting older and hope that they will hang on until we have a new president in office. But there are huge numbers of activists working on change in every arena…we all know what they are.

a few typos and a formatting problem in my answer above. I need to start checking my work.

@btko I never said Socialism was a form of Fascism. I was exploring his options other then capitalism.

Definitions of christianist on the Web:

(noun): one who advocates the reordering of society and government in accordance with fundamentalist Christian interpretations of the Bible.
http://www.britannica.com/blogs/2007/09/webisode-screenager-etc-the-open-dictionary/

A fundamentalist Christian, comparable to an Islamist in the Muslim faith or a Sanhedrin in the Jewish faith
en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Christianist

@kevbo—your work is beautiful.

And what we have here in the United States is a mixture of both Capitalism and Socialism, otherwise we wouldn’t have things like welfare. It sounds like allen feels Europe is a better system then we have here. I would strongly disagree. What they have in Europe is a broken form of Socialism that takes more then 50% of your income in taxes and wastes it on countless social programs that end up hurting everyone they were meant to help.

Thank you. I had never heard that word before. “Christianist” I guess you learn something new every day. Thanks for the education.

Wow! Corporatist too. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporatist

Don’t I feel stupid. You keep throwing out these big words and I thought you were the one making them up. :) Don’t I feel dumb now.

Whatever the words, it does not improve the logic.

I always thought that regulated Capitalism was ideal. Does not Socialism refer to ownership of property?
Regulation is not Socialism, is it?
How do we take the country back from the Corporatist?
@dang….these terms are more familiar around progressive circles, not really mainstream, to be sure

@marina, thank you, could you please point out the logical flaws please?

How are Christians (I refuse to use your made-up term) running the country? What the heck are corporatists? Who are you referring to? Corporations?

@Maria True.

@Allan Do you really think for a moment that it is the “Right”, alone, that drives Corporatism. The entirety of our government is to blame for Corporatism Democrats, Republicans, Independents. The only party it sounds like you may agree with would be the Libertarians.

@dang
What I do admire about the Europeans, is that they get out in the streets and hold their Gov. to account. Is this why they have health care, public transportation, and a greater degree of equality?

Because they demand it, and follow up with it?

Their health care is horrible, public transportation only works because they live in such close quarters, and if it is equality you want then Socialism is what you want. Take from all and distribute evenly. The flaw with this logic I already pointed out in the fact that it completely demolishes all desire for creativity or the entrepreneur. No one goes the extra mile if it will not benefit them more then the next guy. This alone causes inequality. I don’t want equality. I want freedom and liberty.

Now we privatize profits and social losses (mtg bail out), give subsidies to Exxon in a time of war and record profits, while our education system SUCKS, health care costs soar, and infrastructure crumbles….

I’m no partisan and no fan of Dems or Repubs., and I know of no Libertarian system that has ever succeeded anywhere…

I agree that corporations can be used for evil purposes but in my frequent travel to China I have seen how Corporations bring human rights to many people for the first time to the largest group of people on the planet. They give them the first taste of what liberty and human rights are all about.

You are misinformed about the healthcare being horrible in Europe….let’s take that question up another day….

You have liberty to choose between Coke and Pepsi, so do the Chinese. The can choose between poision water and poison air and McD’s and KFC, but you make my point:

We are moving in China’s direction, they are not much moving in ours in terms of civil liberties, rights, and wages.

Our education system sucks because of you stinkin Liberals. No amount of money will solve the education problem in this country. Harder courses, more homework, more personal responsibility, and more competitiveness amongst schools is what will solve the problem. A student today doesn’t even have to ever stretch themselves to pass all the way through high school and maybe even college now days.

Tell me what you want to see changed! Simple and clear.

#1
#2
#3

and what you think it will do.

@dang@marina“The flaw with this logic I already pointed out in the fact that it completely demolishes all desire for creativity or the entrepreneur.” —-show me the illogical part of my origional question? Please?

What does that have to do with the take over of your gov. by the Right wing agenda? How does regulation demolish creativity?

I am not advocating government ownership of anything——Is regulation Socialism?

@dang——you can’t win this on logic so you start with the name calling, right?

@dang “If by “Liberal” they mean, as they want people to believe, someone who is soft in his policies abroad, who is against local government, and who is unconcerned with the taxpayer’s dollar, then the record of this party and its members demonstrate that we are not that kind of “Liberal.” But if by a “Liberal” they mean someone who looks ahead and not behind, someone who welcomes new ideas without rigid reactions, someone who cares about the welfare of the people—their health, their housing, their schools, their jobs, their civil rights, and their civil liberties—someone who believes we can break through the stalemate and suspicions that grip us in our policies abroad, if that is what they mean by a “Liberal,” then I’m proud to say I’m a “Liberal.” JFK

#1. I would love to see us get rid of welfare and create a system that encourages work not laziness.

#2. I would like to see us smart up and find solutions for our energy problems like Nuclear power but realize the hype and greed behind the Al Gore “Global Warming” hysteria.

I am sorry for resorting to calling you a “Liberal” (that’s name calling) If you called me a stinkin Conservative I would not think you were name calling? I just get very passionate about the education issue because it is a huge problem and it effects us more then anything else down the road. I truly think we need to fix it quick but it will take alot of changing that I don’t think the American people will allow.

Nice quote.

Our education system sucks because it is underfunded. Teachers take donation to buy paper and chalk, but I do agree that our people are disengaged, parents do not support teachers, and are lazy (but not fat), and the Chinese and Indians are kicking our asses
“harder courses, more homework, more personal responsibility, and more competitiveness amongst schools” will do the trick I agree.

I am passionate too and I often cross the line of civil discourse, no offense taken….we do need a big time pardim shift, all of us do, that we are not a red team and a blue team, we are an American team, and we better get it together quick.

If you were to listen to that man’s (JFK) inaugural speech without knowing who was talking you would have called him a Republican Conservative.

It is NOT money. It is the fact that education is a government monopoly and can not improve without competitive teaching and rewarding teachers that teach well. The fact that schools are run by the government is what makes them bad. Just like I was saying about Socialism or Communism, when you get paid no matter how good or crappy you are at teaching why would anyone go the extra mile or even enter the profession at all.

Is using federal dollars to fund education Socialism?

I have 2 girls in the education system, and the shit I see give me heartburn.
We bring them to special math schools and language and science schools because school is more like day care…..I’m all for ending laziness, but a social saftey net is not a bad thing…...brb

Do you like T.Boone Picken’s Ideas for energy?

Why then do the Communist Chinese schools kick our asses, government only does not work when republicans govern (oxymorn)—-they appoint Brownie to FEMA (the horsey show guy) and then say, “see it did not work”!

T. Boone Pickens is a scum bag trying to make a buck. He is an oil tycoon trying to get on the front of the next big wave of green money into his pocket.

Check this out. http://www.valcent.net/i/misc/Vertigro/index.html

What do you think of this guy’s idea?

Wind and solar are never going to solve our energy problem.

@dang….(heavy sigh)
You loved Picken’s when he was funding the Swift Boat Vets. against Kerry though?
What is wrong about being ahead of the next big wave of green money? Are we not Capitalists?
Check Mate!

I didn’t even know who Pickens was before his commercials.

But he is pushing solutions that will not work and only because he himself has already put a ton of money into them.

wind, solar, hydro, nueclar (sp), alcohol See Brazil, love the link—that will work…dinner time

have a good one

I need to get some stuff done tonight as well.

Thank you for the lively conversation. Next time!

DangDang

sorry dangdang, misread your post on fascism. :)

Man, I leave Fluther for a few hours and things get hostel…

@chris, excellent link as usual (Naomi Wolf)

VOTE! Less than half of the registered voters in this country did so during the last Presidential election. VOTE…make sure your neighbors vote…make sure your family members vote. Enough with the apathy already! VOTE!

Vote for who?!?!
Uneducated, or misled, voters are worse than not voting at all.

Sometimes it’s hard to vote between a dead tree and a mouldy rock.

I think more folks vote for American Idol than president…...maybe we deserve what we get here….

I had a thought the other day. If corporations exercise greater control over govermnent than citizens (such as big pharma writing the Medicare Part D legislation, what effect would it have to regard them as representatives? To donate or withhold funds (through purchases or investments). To communicate with or lobby them regarding pending legislation. To, in general, become some kind of mobilized society of citizen/consumer hybrids? Obviously, we do that already with somewhat less conscientiousness, but what would happen if we operated from a place of demanding better behavior and policies?

Also, this article is interesting with respect to corporatism and Iraq.

@kev——good article….so are you saying that you think there is hope for positive change?

@allengreen

I dont think it is the hope and change that everyone keeps talking about though.

OBAMA TOP CONTRIBUTORS
http://www.opensecrets.org/pres08/contrib.php?cycle=2008&cid=N00009638
Goldman Sachs $606,080
University of California $488,159
JPMorgan Chase & Co $378,357
Citigroup Inc $371,704
UBS AG $370,850
Lehman Brothers $333,310
National Amusements Inc $332,839
Harvard University $325,424
Google Inc $321,964
Sidley Austin LLP $307,345
Skadden, Arps et al $281,163
Morgan Stanley $274,463
Time Warner $268,227
Jones Day $251,250
Exelon Corp $237,311
University of Chicago $230,175
Latham & Watkins $228,276
Microsoft Corp $222,578
Wilmerhale Llp $222,080
General Electric $210,329

@chris——exactly, Dems and Repubs are both bought and paid for by the same folks…..why don’t American’s get out in the streets like Europeans or Ukrainians? I’m not really looking for a solution from anyone that has an “R” or a “D” by their name.

Problem is that the Corporatist keep us playing red and blue games in opposition to our own interests.

That said, did you have a big problem with corporate donations in 2004?

Umm…Exxon does not get subsidies from the government. They get tax breaks not subsidies.

@win——we are entitled to our opinion’s but not our own fact’s….

Exxon Mobil and other oil companies may benefit from $2.6 billion in subsidies in the energy bill that is nearing passage in Congress. The subsidies, designed to encourage domestic oil and gas production, were part of an oil industry “wish list,” according to David Hamilton, the Sierra Club’s energy programs director.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/07/28/AR2005072802085.html

Suppose the silent majority went to the polls and wrote in no to both canidates. To get word out to the silent majority ,we would use the computer. Say there is a silent majority here of 20 people, and those 20 people went to all the forums they connect with and shared the idea and from that forum the silent majority went to their other forums and on and on until the silent majority thru out the country had gotten the message.
By then the media would have picked it up and carried all over.
The only way to change the system is from within the system itself