I don’t really equate political correctness with class, but with kindness. Going out of your way to avoid needlessly hurting people is a nice thing to do. While Trump’s insults are crude, they are also cruel…he goes out of his way to hurt people on purpose.

I think they aren’t mutually exclusive, but they are two different things. Trump has said and done many things that lack class and at the same time are not PC.

To me, class is a more constant phenomenon, while being PC changes over time. It has never been classy to hurt people or treat others unfairly. Class, which often utilizes rules of etiquette, is there to make all people comfortable. Being kind and respectful is class to me.

Being PC changes depending on the audience and depending on the moment in time.

People I know who have spent time with him say he can turn on the class very well. He is incredibly gracious and welcoming. I think he knows better. He went to Wharton, and obviously is part of the upper class, and does deals with cultures that can be very oriented towards being subtle and polite.

Most of his crass behavior centers around people’s fears. It’s probably pretty calculated. People like me, and the people who know him, seem to say Trump doesn’t mean all the people in a particular group are bad when he generalizes about them. However, I think everyone agrees that how and when he says many things is not presidential.

I’ve already described what class is to me in another recent thread.

Political correctness?

It is a war against free expression. Nothing less, nothing more.

I will use what are sometimes considered politically correct terms if they are simply more accurate, “Asian” instead of “oriental” for example.

Sometimes words simply evolve. “Flight attendant” instead of “stewardess.”

@SecondHandStoke Is Asian more accurate than Oriental? I used to use Asian to mean people from the continent of Asia. I had to adjust that, because calling a person from India, Asian, is not how the word is used. My neighbor a few houses ago was blonde and Barbie like. She also was from Africa, so technically African-American, but not by current usage. PC often isn’t about accuracy, but about not offending people. Sometimes it gets in the way of open discussion, but generally it helps people avoid offending other people and can promote discussion.

When you hear the phrase political correctness, replace it with respect.

That’s really what the disagreement is about when people don’t want to be “politically correct.” It is a matter of not giving a group or a people a decent respect.

Trump has no respect for anyone. And he has no class at all.

Political correctness as explained by HS Truman to DA MacArthur: “Politically correct is a doctrine, recently fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and promoted by a sick mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a piece of shit by the clean end”!

@si3tech Your quote is fake, as has been reported by Snopes. It uses terms like “mainstream media”, a neologism that was not in use in the 1940’s. It first surfaced on the internet in April of last year, despite the communications at the end of World War II being extensively studied for the last 70 years.

@zenvelo I would say the outward appearance of respect.

@JLeslie If a person offends on a regular calculated way, it is no different than offending because you want to offend for no real reason. It means you are not a nice person if you think it is okay to offend anyone whom you believe isn’t your equal.

Actually it is worse to do it in a calculated way. It means that you have a mean streak and intend to hurt someone for being born different than you because it benefits you. Which is behavior that a sociopath would have.

@zenvelo I agree.
@SecondHandStoke I could see your point, but Trump isn’t just saying Mexicans, or Blacks, instead of African Americans , or Muslims (which is not a race but a faith), he is adding insults and generalizations about behavior and not to mention a ton of lies. I could care less if someone called me Spanish or latino. But it always bugged me when people would say that all latinos are crazy and hot tempered and violent. I am maybe a little nuts (but the fun kind) and like all human beings, if you piss me off, you will get a reaction, but an appropriate one. I may or may not get violent if I was ever violently attack, but I don’t know in truth what I will do. But I’m pretty peaceful and sensible, like a lot of latinos, hispanics or Spanish.
The latin race is no different from any other culture. We all have a violent historical past. I really don’t think there has ever been a culture not involved in a war. Maybe the Eskimos.
So to say only a certain culture is a certain way, isn’t about freedom of expression, or being politically incorrect. It’s about angering others in either a thoughtless manner or being a douche.
People can and have a right to be a douche. But others have a right to call that person a douch and defend themselves for blowhards. Right of speech doesn’t mean one earns the right not to get counter attack.
Like Trump followers who want freedom of speech. Well Trump said what he wants and others have used their freedom of expression to express themselves back in their own defense. Can’t have it just one way.

But if a person doesn’t know the different names in races why mention it at all? I’m sure if you called a Scottish or Irish person English, they would flip their lid. Saying Asian if fine but is the misinformed assumptions that are often followed by the wrong name that is more offensive.

Especially when people throw in. You know what I mean! All you people are alike. And it is a very wrong assumption. Like when people assume I must have a recipe for burritos and my culture doesn’t make burritos or assume that if a person is Mexican, they must’ve arrived illegally.

If you feel you are being politically incorrect, then it’s your whole mindset that’s the problem. That’s the thing with political correctness. People who feel the need to “censor” themselves in such a way have a skewed mind from the start. They’re ignorant, bigoted, or something similar.

For example, If you want to say Mexicans are rapists, and then be “politically correct” by saying only some are rapists, then you can clearly see it’s your mentality that’s the problem. Trump viewed Mexicans as rapists, and that’s what led him to speak his “uncensored, politically incorrect” generalization. Supporters see this as Trump “being honest and speaking his mind” because they’re just as &$%#ed up in the head as he is. They view Mexican people, and pretty much the whole world, in a very different way.

I don’t know how to define class. It really has no clear definition as it’s based on the individual’s tastes. So, political correctness and class are different.

@Pandora I believe the individual or group gets to decide if something is offensive. Once the make it known that they are offended by it, and it becomes politically incorrect to say it, then I think people should say or not say what is politically correct. It’s not perfectly black and white though. My black friends prefer the term black to African-American. How do I know? I asked. I use what they prefer when with them, if it comes up for some reason, but then I’m sure some black people don’t like it. Many Native Americans are fine with the term Indian. I tend to use the former, but I’m just making a point. What about the people who want to keep the name Redskins for the DC team they aren’t racist, the are just resistant to change I think. They love their football team. Their intension is not hateful or generalizing or stereotyping. I’d say the intention usually doesn’t master though, what matters is how does the group feel about it.

Can Trump be mean, unthinking, purposely provocative, and lack class? Absolutely. I personally don’t think if he met my husband today that he would think he is a thief or rapist based on what country he was born and raised n. By the the Latino is not considered a race by most people. I use the term racism broadly, for ease, I include religions too, but you actually stated it’s a race. Is that how you see it? To me that’s like saying Americans are a race.

When I say PC gone too far stifles discussion, it has gotten to the point that a lot of people don’t want to look at group behavior or talk about it. But, we still do though scientifically we do, to make business decisions and political decisions and predictions. Look at would be wrong, they don’t want it even thought about or discussed. I’d agree that we need to exercise when it is appropriate to discuss it, but wanting to be void of looking at group behavior isn’t going to happen.

When I was first engaged I was talking to someone fairly randomly and when they found out my fiancé was Mexican, they told me a story of a relative who married aca Mexican, who wound up practically in a body cast shortly after they married. A day later I was talking to someone about my fiancé, that his family was from Israel, and they told me a story about how hot tempered the Israelis are. Lol. One day after another. Of course my husband has never hit me, but I will say that I would generalize that countries with a macho culture do do some sucky things to their women. Not all men are macho or horrible, but there are general cultural differences. Of course, we can find European-white-American men that act like macho idiots too, but culturally it’s less acceptable.

The following is a story that you can bother to read or ignore, it’s a little long.

My inlaws live in a beautiful gated community. The community posts every month what side of the street to park on if you need to park in the street. It’s usually guests who need to. They get all pissed off when the citizen patrol asks them to move their car to the other side. They got annoyed when a neighbor came out and told my nephew to move his car, because he parked in front of a mailbox. My FIL moved my car the other day out if the driveway, because he needed to get out of the garage, and he moved my car to the wrong side of the street and in front of a fire hydrant! These Mexicans are looking pretty bad. I don’t see the Jews in the community doing any of this. I’m dead serious, the place is probably over 80% Jewish.

At first I thought maybe my inlaws just hadn’t read the signs about the parking, because they don’t read English, but no, even when I told them they are still feeling like they are being picked on by the citizen patrol. Then my MIL says the people on the corner (also Hispanic) have tons of cars all the time and no one says anything to them. Oy. I told her I don’t know why she thinks the patrol doesn’t say something to them. I also thought, maybe those cars are on the correct side of the street. I also thought, the two Hispanic families on the street have a lot of cars visiting a lot of the time. My MIL obviously doesn’t give a shit about the rules, and that stands out here, and I wouldn’t be surprised if people are stereotyping them. It’s difficult for me not to.

So, I don’t mean I think all Mexicans behave this way, that they are born this way, or anything of the sort. I do think maybe there is a reason they don’t worry much about the rules though, or think they are being picked on. No one is picking on them because they are Hispanic, they are being addressed regarding this issue, because they are being ignorant and obstenant. Can we even give them the excuse of ignorance? I don’t think so. Even when they now know the rules they still complain and break them. That’s not how they see it though. If I parked in front of a fire hydrant or a neighbors mailbox or the wrong side if the street, I would never hear the end of it from my mother.

My point with that story is to show that the neighbors are not picking on my inlaws for being Hispanic. That’s not the intention. My inlaws are very different in this situation than my own family would be. It’s impossible for me to not see the difference. I don’t know if it’s cultural, just a family thing, education level, I don’t know. I don’t have enough experience or statistics to actually make assumptions or stereotype a whole group regarding it so I don’t, but we are the Mexican family on the block (the only Mexicans probably in here out of 600 houses) and “we” blatantly inconvenience others by not following the rules. I feel they are being extremely self centered, but I stifle. Now, I always park my car on the street so I don’t risk my inlaws moving it.

So, when a neighbor says the Mexicans on their street, or the Hispanics, if maybe that other house is actually parking incorrectly (I’m not sure) don’t follow the parking rules, the statement is just fact. It doesn’t necessarily mean the people are all generalizing it to the greater Hispanic population. I have no idea if they do think or say it, I’m just making a point and admitting I think about it that way for this very specific situation. I realize we should not even think in terms of the people who break the rules are from X group, but that’s how the human brain generally works. We group things to deal with things.

Shoot. I didn’t get ten minutes to edit!

@zenvelo and @dxs I totally agree with you. I don’t generally have to think about being PC, because I just naturally am PC (meaning respectful/nice/kind).

I mean, you can be unaware that something is offensive, but once you know it is…why would you want to continue to do/say it? Why does the very idea of being PC (respectful/nice/kind) piss anyone off?

@augustlan Yeah. I think people just don’t realize how insulting what they’re saying is. Perhaps they only see “being PC” as being pedantic or something. They can’t seem to put themselves in the other’s shoes.

@JLeslie Yes, I do believe Trump is a racist and I believe he probably hates people all together. But he’s a businessman and so I’m sure he can act the sweetest to the people he feels that will be a financial benefit to him or an asset of some kind. Sure plenty of people do it. But when you make generalizations about cultures and flat out lies, then you (meaning him) is a racist.

Like when he said 80 percent of crime against whites is done by black people. When the statistics show that 80 percent of crimes against whites is done by whites. When he was told of the real statistics, he didn’t walk it back.
The only motive here would be to anger white people against black people and make them fear and believe them all criminals and violent.

As for Muslims, I’m not saying they are a race. I’m saying that Donald Trump lumps all Muslims as if it was a race and says they are all violent and want to kill us. They are definitely Muslims faith from many different cultures and countries.
It would be like saying Caucasians are all nut jobs. Caucasians cover a wide variety of cultures and races, to include Spaniards and even Puerto Ricans.
I just think that being deceitful and spouting hate isn’t never about truth. It just has one purpose. To divide and cause conflict. That has nothing to do with freedom of speech. And if one does that, then they should be prepared to meet and allowed others to express their anger and hate back. You can’t have it for some and not for others. But honestly, I don’t think it should be allowed on either side. Adults should act and talk like adults.

@augustlan and @dxs I agree. Being respectful is the best way to avoid overstepping with races, cultures, religions, gender and sexual orientation.

@Pandora I do agree with you that Trump can turn it on and off, has some prejudices, and I hate any lies told, and I think egging on racists is irresponsible and unbecoming.

I know you said Muslim is a religion, and I understand using the word racist to include any group that is targeted. I was talking about you said Hispanic/Latin race. That’s separate from people being “racist” against against them. Being from Latin America isn’t a race. Not on our census, and not technically. It’s an ethnic group, and within the group there are subgroups. Just like the US. My FIL’s family is from Israel before MX. In America he’s Hispanic. His family that came directly here are just White Jews.

A mountain of difference…...........they aren’t on the same continent.