General Question

Hypocrisy_Central's avatar

Unbelievers, what defense would you attempt to make (if you tried to mount any) to the Deity you mocked and denied if you indeed discovered you were wrong after death?

Asked by Hypocrisy_Central (26856points) May 16th, 2016
348 responses
“Great Question” (9points)

This is not a question of if He exists or not, because this question is for those who do not believe He exists. If one can fathom or bring themselves to imagine the possibility they are wrong and He does exist, this would be a question for them. If after you die you discover the Diety of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob is real, you did not go off to the great white zephrum, never-never land, or oblivion as you always believed. Before being sent to everlasting damnation, what defense would you attempt to use to try and save yourself? Again, this question goes to what you would say, if anything, if you have nothing to say, this question has no relevance to you same as if you cannot place yourself in any possibility that you are wrong in your thoughts of the afterlife, there are softer questions out there, I am sure you can find one of those. This is a question to those who don’t believe but can grasp the possibility they are incorrect.

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Answers

Pachy's avatar

Do the same thing I’ve tried to do all my life: Own up to my mistake and sincerely apolgize. Then, whatever comes, comes.

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Pandora's avatar

Don’t know. I guess I’ll wing it.

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dappled_leaves's avatar

I can’t imagine I’d need to mount a defence. If he knows everything anyway, then I knows why I wouldn’t believe in him. Why would he need me to explain it?

The idea that such a being would demand that I either explain myself or beg for mercy, or else suffer terrible consequences, is so preposterous that I can’t see it happening. This is supposed to be a being that is worthy of respect, right?

ARE_you_kidding_me's avatar

I’ll be like, I did not believe and was genuine, honest and forthcoming with that belief. If you want to hold honesty against me then you’re not who you are supposed to be anyway. I don’t believe in all of that bible stuff ( being nice) but I’m not what you would consider an athiest. Perhaps more agnostic but even that is a stretch.

Brian1946's avatar

I would say, “Wow! I wasn’t sure of your existence, but it’s great to see that you’re not the misogynic, homophobic, abysmally narcissistic male figure in whom too many believed”.

In reply She might say, “My pleasure, Bri! The jerk you’re referring to has a place in the center of Sagittarius A, where it rules over the disassembled atoms of its most rabid followers”.

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RedDeerGuy1's avatar

Sorry my bad. Can I have a second chance?

Coloma's avatar

@Hypocrisy_Central The question asks what defense I would attempt to make for not believing, does it not? Not believing in science fiction and fantasy would be my defense, based on the earthly definition of such. Besides. to follow a few others themes, as I said, if God already knows everything he would already know my reasoning so there would be nothing to explain or defend.
You’re doing your’re typical thing here, pretending to ask a legitimate question under the guise of simply wanting answers to a hypothetical situation, when, in reality, your really just looking for a segue to defend your own beliefs.

Pretty transparent, so I’m out, because, clearly, our answers are not acceptable to you so this question is biased and rigged in favor of opening up a podium for you to dispute our answers.

Stinley's avatar

I would say sorry but you gave me intelligence and free will. I chose to come to the conclusion that the stories humans told each other seemed too far fetched to hold much credence for me. I chose to live as honest a life and as kind a life as possible. I tried to keep true to my moral code. I thought of others and the greater good to help my fellow humans enjoy the benefits that a cohesive society brings. I would hope that I am being judged on more than what I chose to believe but on how I chose to live my life.

Really if there is one thing that we can agree on, no matter what we think is going to happen after we die is this. You only get one chance to live this life and we should make the most of it.

Dutchess_III's avatar

I wouldn’t need one. He already knows. And he’d forgive me. And then I’d float around for all eternity doing nothing.

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Pied_Pfeffer's avatar

What would you say if you found yourself in the presence of Zeus or Brahman or Allah or any other religious god?

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kritiper's avatar

This great deity would be very intelligent and have a great sense of humor. He/she would understand my past point of view and we would both have a good laugh!

stanleybmanly's avatar

I would first congratulate him on doing such a masterful job of “hiding out”, then ask which of the never ending parade of charlatans and hucksters were certified representatives of his sales team and which version of salvation I was expected to accept. Next would be the question of why an omnipotent being would find it necessary to be worshipped by its clearly inferior creations, as well as whether or not my existence was a failure because I neglected to require adoration and animal sacrifices from my own pets.

flutherother's avatar

I didn’t mock and deny you Lord as this would have been a contradiction. How could I have mocked a creature in which I didn’t believe? Now I know you exist I accept your existence and now I can mock you.

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Pandora's avatar

I’m not an atheist and I do believe in a Christian God, but if I’m wrong and there is only Buddist, or some Greek God, or any other God, I can’t say that I would know the proper response for them all. I may be miffed and mention that he or she have no right for being pissed at me for being a stupid ignorant human, since he or she could’ve chosen not to make me a stupid ignorant human. The only Gods I mock are the Greek ones. Mostly because Zeus never met a woman he didn’t want to screw.
But I would have no defense against the one God I already believe in.
But more than likely, I may say. Opps, my bad and hope like heck there isn’t a hell and he/she isn’t a vengeful or resentful god.

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Dutchess_III's avatar

I find it funny that I would have to explain anything. When I was a Christian I was pretty sure I was going to go to heaven because I try to be a good person and care for others, even people who wear slippers to the convenience store (OK, so I screw up now and again!) I haven’t changed at all. So why would he even care if the only thing I had changed were my beliefs? What does it even matter?

Rarebear's avatar

Well I never mocked anybody of belief unless they were being ridiculous about it.

But I would say, “I’ve been a good person, I’ve saved a lot of lives, I’ve relieved suffering and I generally try to be kind to people. If that’s not good enough for you, well, I am sorry”.

gorillapaws's avatar

I’d say “Dude, why do you hate foreskins so much? If you hated them, why have all men born with foreskins but then demand they get removed? It kind of hurts your credibility.”

Then I’d probably say something like: “So you made us in your image, and gave us the ability to reason (which is what separates us from the beasts) but then you wanted us to abandon reason for faith that you exist, which isn’t rational at all. Do you enjoy these types of self-contradictory riddles, and are you seriously going to hold that against me?”

Finally: “Oh and what’s the deal with light? How is it a particle AND a wave? Do you enjoy messing with people?”

I’m not even an atheist, but I do think the big fella has some explaining to do.

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MilkyWay's avatar

In all honesty I would stare at him in silence. He can do whatever he wants to do anyway so what’s the point in trying to argue or defend myself? Does he not know the minds and hearts of all he supposedly loves? He is supposed to love me right?
Great question btw.

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Seek's avatar

What, no further digs at the knowing apostate? I feel left out.

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JeSuisRickSpringfield's avatar

To start, I don’t think I’ve ever mocked any deity. My agnosticism is not about spite, it’s about a lack of evidence. So if God asked me why I didn’t believe—despite being omniscient and therefore already aware of my answer—I guess what I would say is something like this:

“I drew the best conclusions I could with the rational capacities I was born with and the evidence that was made available to me, which is all that any person can do. But I also never claimed to be absolutely certain, so I am not embarrassed to say now that I was wrong. Some of your followers say that you are cruel and petty. Others say you are just and merciful. I guess I am about to discover which group is correct.”

Kropotkin's avatar

I must admit that I get a kick out of questions like this one.

There’s no defence possible, since your god already supposedly knows what I’m thinking and what I’ll do next—then he knows that I would not sincerely acquiesce to what I would consider to be a vile authoritarian and sadistic tyrant.

Presumably he wouldn’t even wait around to hear me give my “defence” and just blast me into damnation instantly.

DrasticDreamer's avatar

If the biblical god is real, I wouldn’t attempt to make any defense whatsoever. The bible is full of contradictions and if god existed, it couldn’t expect anyone to know up from down based on a single book written by men. Men – who tortured, raped, oppressed, enslaved, and warred.

“Whatever, dude.”. That’s what I would say.

Unofficial_Member's avatar

Why He and not She or Them? Surely Abrahamic religion isn’t the only one or the oldest one known to human. I believe in my own freedom and no one has the right to force his/her will on me. To answer your scenario, I don’t remember I ever sign up a contract stating that the creation of my life will go along with mandatory obedience to what-so-called the Creator.

But… then again this situation will make a good episode for the upcoming event. Atheists can make friend with devils and start a revolution. Guess what? The first place to conquer is the kingdom of Heaven. This epic battle shall be recorded on the next chapter on holy bible (If someone somehow know how to witness this event). Forgive me, I guess I got carried away a little bit, I was too into writing a fantasy fiction.

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cazzie's avatar

I would say this, ‘So lucky I memorised this’, clears throat https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B5RtDpva7nE

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ARE_you_kidding_me's avatar

@Hypocrisy_Central No, not believing ice forms on wings is either ignorance of a known physical phenomena or crazy beliefs against them. Beliefs against a known phenomena should be held against that person. Apples and oranges. In order for it to be ignorance of god then god must be known and quantifiable. Show me that. If “god” is judging me on not believing some discombobulated rantings in an ancient and corrupted book and not following the best line of evidence based facts then we have a god with divine cognitive dissonance. It’s not a genuine,honest belief if the fear of death or hell drives you to think you believe it.

Hypocrisy_Central's avatar

@ARE_you_kidding_me In order for it to be ignorance of god then god must be known and quantifiable.
Black holes are not quantifiable yet people believe merely because facts they say point to it, they can find or manufacture. To those who know how to use the tools to discover God, He is very much quantifiable. To those who either don’t know how to access the tools everyone has, or flat out refuse to use them, then God will not be real to them, but that doesn’t make Him any less there.

Show me that. If “god” is judging me on not believing some discombobulated rantings in an ancient and corrupted book and not following the best line of evidence based facts then we have a god with divine cognitive dissonance.
You have the right not to believe, and doing so you will be judge by the law, and any infraction, any disqualifies you from the better place in the hereafter. He did not do anything to you that you would not have done yourself.

It’s not a genuine,honest belief if the fear of death or hell drives you to think you believe it.
That is something we can agree on, I would go further to say it is not a genuine belief that there is no hereafter if you are afraid of death, being afraid of suffering, even I am afraid of that, but death has no hold on me and I do not fear it.

So…..you are standing before God, and your answer, if He should ask, just to hear it from the horse’s mouth, He already knows, as you say, would be that you did not believe because He could not be measured, weighed, felt, seen, or heard, or because you believe the Bible to be suspect or a fraud?

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LostInParadise's avatar

I would say that I could not decide among the many religions and, since they cannot all be right but can all be wrong, I made the logical choice.

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ARE_you_kidding_me's avatar

HC “To those who know how to use the tools to discover God”
And what would those be?

Black holes are not only indirectly observable they are mathematically certain. Beyond that you won’t find many scientists speculate beyond what we do know about them. Show me any evidence for an abrahamic god.
“So…..you are standing before God, and your answer, if He should ask, just to hear it from the horse’s mouth, He already knows, as you say, would be that you did not believe because He could not be measured, weighed, felt, seen, or heard, or because you believe the Bible to be suspect or a fraud?”

Yes that is the only honest answer. It is THE answer, any other would be a lie. If “god” would send me to eternal damnation for that then well…

Kropotkin's avatar

@Hypocrisy_Central “And you base that on what? Troubles you have suffered in this world God came down from heaven and afflicted you, or have you witnessed God beating, robing, cheating, etc. someone?”

It’s based on this: “Before being sent to everlasting damnation, what defense would you attempt to use to try and save yourself?” in your very own question.

Everlasting damnation for justifiably not believing in this god for lack of evidence? That’s so insane that it would make any of history’s most brutal and psychopathic tyrants think it’s going a bit too far.

So assuming I’m wrong about your god, and it exists—then I would remain defiant. Grovelling for mercy wouldn’t help me, since your god already knows that that would not be sincere. And eternal damnation for me it is.

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Rarebear's avatar

You said you are straightening out misconceptions
What are mine?

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Darth_Algar's avatar

If your god is what you claim him to be, all-knowing and all-powerful, then no defense is needed, as he already knows the whys and knows what I will say. If he needs me to present a defense then he is not all-knowing, surely not all-powerful, and I needn’t concern myself.

dammitjanetfromvegas's avatar

She’s supposed to be forgiving, right? I don’t need one.

Winter_Pariah's avatar

I’m pretty sure that I am so set in my own mindset that if I did happen to stumble into an afterlife, I might acknowledge whatever entity as the creator of life or whatever, but I would still view it as an obstacle to overcome one way or another. And if it is indeed the Abrahamic god, I’d have plenty of questions for it, the hypocritical douche who loves playing favorites… Regardless of how that conversation goes down, if it goes down, It’ll almost certainly end with me being booted to hell with a fist in the air and a [middle] finger to the sky.

If it turns out Jehovah’s Witness or the Mormons got it right, I’ll just say not interested and close the door, or gate I suppose.

Rarebear's avatar

I’m still waiting for HC to criticize what I would say. I am feeling left out.

Dutchess_III's avatar

@Rarebear said, ”...I would say, “I’ve been a good person, I’ve saved a lot of lives, I’ve relieved suffering and I generally try to be kind to people. If that’s not good enough for you, well, I am sorry”.”

I’d be interested to hear how your God would react to that too, @Hypocrisy_Central.

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Stinley's avatar

@Rarebear me too. I said a similar thing. No come back.

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JeSuisRickSpringfield's avatar

@Hypocrisy_Central Like I said, I’m doing the best with the rational capacities I was born with. I’m not an expert at identifying bones, and I’m not an expert in divine workmanship. One of the ways that a person becomes an expert at identifying bones is by comparing different kinds to one another. Over time, you learn the differences that distinguish a dinosaur bone from a horse bone. But without the ability to compare a divinely crafted universe from a mundanely crafted one, how am I supposed to figure out which kind I’m living in?

In principle, I guess I can agree with you that the evidence is all around us. But what is it evidence of? If God exists, then it’s evidence of His existence. But if He doesn’t exist, then it’s not evidence of his existence (and maybe it’s evidence of His non-existence). I don’t have any way of figuring out how a universe looks when it’s created by a God and when it’s not created by a God. I just have the one universe to look at and an open question about how it came to be (with a lot of sensible explanations of how it could have come to be without a God).

Hypocrisy_Central's avatar

@Rarebear _ I’m still waiting for HC to criticize what I would say. I am feeling left out._
Sorry it took so long but as late I have no desire to live in Fluffland Fluther, so I am busy about more productive things. Usually I would take them in order but I am starting with yours because it seems to me the most legitimate and less ranty and whiny, and I can kill of several resounding cymbals and tinkling gongs in the process. It is not a competition, unless you believe there is something to win, or gain, and I cannot figure what that would be.

Let’s take a look at your fist post and apply simple earthly logic to it. If heaven is supposed to be the their resting place of the souls who did the best here, you said: ”Well I never mocked anybody of belief unless they were being ridiculous about it.* I can’t recall at this point if you ever referred to God (uncreated) to god (man created), but many here do, or refer to Him as some she, that would be as respectful to going to the President and instead of calling him Mr. President, etc. say ”Hey, my N***a! What’s up?”, or calling a gay man the ‘F’ word.

You also said: ”But I would say, “I’ve been a good person, I’ve saved a lot of lives, I’ve relieved suffering and I generally try to be kind to people.” We are again only going to apply the earthly logic not even breaching the spiritual aspect of it, by the logic you are attempting to apply if a man lived to be 73 years old and died and during his life he gave millions to charity, always helped the Girl Scouts bake sale, set up scholarships for dozens of indigent students, and in his 50s save 5 people from a burning bush, but at a birthday camping trip for his 13 year old niece he molested her, and in his late 20s killed his neighbor because her yapping dog was keeping him awake, neither act which ended up in the crosshairs of men’s justice; he died with them, such a man would be worthy of heaven. How would that sit with you? It has to be OK because of all the good works he has done. That is a misconception because gaining heaven if not incumbent of “good works”

There are other misconceptions running wild that you have not presented such as ”why put up any defense?”, unless people here are so special most people I know would try to say something in their defense. No different here on Earth, you get caught in the carpool lane with just you, or rolling through that stop at 2mph instead of stopping, or blowing through the Cone Zone and realized you are seen by law, who immediately fangs you with the bubble gum lights, I personally don’t know anyone, but there may be special people on Fluther, who even though they were caught dead to right would not try to get out of having that ticket wrote. No one I know would say ”Yeah, I blew through that stop sign, I was wrong, give me the ticket so I can go get fined in traffic court”, even when people are wrong they still attempt to get some mercy.

Another popular misconception is that God is as some of His followers are, and if any of His followers behaved badly that disqualifies God. Again, using simple earthly logic, which would make the US government no better than that Pinochet, Castro, Hitler, Stalin, or any of the others ran; this government in the US has atrocities on its hands as much as any of them. Using that same logic, laws and law enforcement has to be discounted as flawed and wrong because there were dirty cops and crooked DAs. But we don’t seek to toss out laws because of crooked cops, we see most laws as good but some of the people it was entrusted to as bad, a hypocritical double standard because people hate the fact God knows more than they do.

Another misconception is there is no evidence God exist. The evidence is there, you have to know what means to find Him and how to use it. Gold can be sitting under your feet but you would never find it using a telescope. Someone posted: “Oh and what’s the deal with light? How is it a particle AND a wave?”, scientist being the smartest entities in the universe should be able to figure it out, God certainly knows, if it were that important He would allow man to discover it as electricity, but for right now it just works for man’s benefit like gravity (something else science can’t seem to full understand, at least not to the point of producing it like electricity.).

Another great misconception is that God is in the business of screwing with people. He wants all to have an abundant life of peace, better than they can achieve on our own. Simple earthly logic, our parents (most of them anyhow) wanted us to have happy, safe, and a well-rounded life when we were 7 years old. Would he have had that at 7 if they left up on our own and gave no direction or set any rules? I guess to subject a child to rules, assign them chores, is screwing with them and not allowing them to be free by forcing them to do stuff, at least if we are applying earthly logic to how God works.

@ARE_you_kidding_me HC “To those who know how to use the tools to discover God”
And what would those be?
I am sure they are things you do not believe in or you would not have to ask me as you would know. However, since you asked, belief, that is the essence of faith, and faith is the essence of finding God and having fellowship with Him. You cannot find what you really do not believe, moreover, you will never go looking for what you do not believe.

Black holes are not only indirectly observable they are mathematically certain. Beyond that you won’t find many scientists speculate beyond what we do know about them. Show me any evidence for an abrahamic god
Because certain clues line up to what scientist want to say is evidence of a black hole, it is no more real than if you stayed in a cabin where it snowed overnight and I pit on size 25 shoes I fashioned like large human-like feet and walked across the front yard, when you woke you would see the large footprints. Because the facts line up, the snow was disturbed, what disturbed it was unnatural, not wind, fallen tree limbs, etc. what disturbed it did not look like animal footprints, that it had to be something not animal and larger than normal humans; that is what the facts show, but it would not be the truth, and very few people I know would take it at face value like that. The math maybe fact, but the conclusion may be way different than what it is said to be.

I don’t know, I have no knowledge of any gods Abraham created. The God of Abraham, that is a different story, but by your sentence you were not speaking of Him.

@JeSuisRickSpringfield One of the ways that a person becomes an expert at identifying bones is by comparing different kinds to one another. Over time, you learn the differences that distinguish a dinosaur bone from a horse bone. But without the ability to compare a divinely crafted universe from a mundanely crafted one, how am I supposed to figure out which kind I’m living in?
Yeah, here is only one cosmos because there is only one God. However, you can compare God to gods, and if you are earnestly seeking He will start to enlighten the eyes of your understanding. To leave it up to comparing starts is looking in limited fashion (or you could be stuck on lizards as some are, one would expect it from a 10 year old….but….)

In principle, I guess I can agree with you that the evidence is all around us. But what is it evidence of?
Clouds, salmon, gravity, anything with wings, there are so many things. If one only accepts and info they want, one can discount gravity and believe the Earth somehow holds everything on the planet by suction. There would be nothing you can say about gravity especially if the criterion for believe is being able to produce it.

Well, there were a few more but time grows short and more important things abound, so the rest will have to go to the fridge if they are even relevant enough to thaw out.

Rarebear's avatar

HC your entire answer to me only vaguely addresses what I wrote. For some reason you’re talking about Stalin and quantum mechanics, and Cone Zones. I’m really not sure how you are addressing my answer. You cut and pasted part of what I wrote, but then you go off on tangents and really don’t address it.

Let’s put it another way. Let’s say you were whoever Christian mythology says is at the Gates of Heaven. (I can’t remember). I say what I wrote. You say what you wrote. Then I say, “So, do I get in to Heaven or not?”

And you answer…?

ARE_you_kidding_me's avatar

HC those are not “clues” they are facts and observations. As for god we don’t even have clues
So what are the limits of faith? I can have “faith” in pink unicorns that lay golden eggs but that simply does not make their existence any more probable.

Dutchess_III's avatar

Wow, so referring to God as a “She” is as disrespectful as calling Obama a “Nigger?” Seriously? Last time I checked, the most basic difference between a “He” and a “She” is a penis vs a vagina. Well, and the XX and XY chromosome. Guess God needs a penis and the XY chromosome to function as a god.

JeSuisRickSpringfield's avatar

@Hypocrisy_Central I’ve gotten the whole “faith will help you see” argument before, but it rings hollow to me for a few reasons. The biggest is that I was raised Christian and believed for a long time. But I never really saw any evidence in that time. People would offer God as an explanation for stuff, but using God as an explanation is very different from giving evidence for God. Using God as an explanation assumes you already know God exists. Giving evidence for God’s existence requires us to start without the assumption that He exists (and without the assumption that He doesn’t exist) and then show why one conclusion is better than the other.

The other big reason I don’t find the “faith will help you see” argument convincing is that there are a lot of people who have a very strong faith but who have reached very different conclusions. So the evidence delivered by faith can’t really be clear cut if equally faithful people can come to very different conclusions. And I don’t just mean people who believe in different religions or different deities. Even people who believe in the same deity often wind up with very different conclusions from one another. This is especially true for people who can only read the source material (like the Bible) in a modern language like English or French because translation is a tricky business.

But even people who can read Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek interpret the Bible differently. Not all of the original texts are complete. A lot of them contain words that we don’t know the meaning of. Ancient languages often lack words for certain things (or if they had words for them, we don’t know what they were), which makes it impossible for those languages to convey certain ideas no matter how much we might want them to. And finally, ancient languages were notoriously abbreviated. Because writing was much more difficult back then, scribes would take a lot of shortcuts that we no longer know how to interpret. So while it’s really easy to look at a modern copy of the Rigveda or the Bible and think we’re getting the whole story, any expert can tell you that we are not.

So maybe some of the faithful are right. But if the Christian faithful are right, then the Hindu faithful are wrong. And if the Hindu faithful are right, then the Christian faithful are wrong. They both have faith, though, and they’re both looking at the same evidence. So we can’t say that it’s either faith or evidence that helped them guess correctly. If one of those groups is right, it’s as much about luck as anything else. Luck at being born in a region of the world where their religion is practiced (because where you are born is statistically the strongest indicator of what religion you will practice). Luck at being raised with that religion or being exposed to it (because you can’t practice a religion that you’ve never heard of). And luck at never coming to realize that the evidence against their religion is at least as good as the evidence for it (because human beings are mostly rational, so that kind of thing always engenders at least a little bit of doubt). It can’t just be faith and evidence, though, because two people can both have that and still come to different conclusions.

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Darth_Algar's avatar

@Hypocrisy_Central

If you are truly “not afraid” to answer questions, then why do you not honestly answer @Pied_Pfeffer‘s question to you?

Hypocrisy_Central's avatar

@Darth_Algar If you are truly “not afraid” to answer questions, then why do you not honestly answer @Pied_Pfeffer‘s question to you?
What makes you believe I did not answer it honestly, because I did not dabble off on talking about God and if He had a penis, beer, video games, or lizards? It was answered honestly, and to the point, and example some should take but that would be expecting too much. This IS the General Section, so I thought.

ARE_you_kidding_me's avatar

@Hypocrisy_Central People see “bigfoot” footprints all the time yet most of us don’t believe in bigfoot. We all generally believe they are fake or not interpreted correctly. The fact that there are actually footprints fake or not is at least some form of physical evidence. Even though I don’t believe bigfoot exists based on elementary logic I’m more inclined to believe in bigfoot than god. There is zero evidence for a god that religion describes, zip, zero, nada, zilch, nothing… whatsoever. Any scenario you try to come up with is going to fail in comparison to reality because what you are trying to argue has no substance. Without facts or at the very minimum some rudimentary logic that points in the direction of a religious “god” then there is nothing more to say. Yes, show me the money. Please enlighten me with how you have justified this belief. I’m not being condescending. What do you believe honestly As in: if it is religion what form, denomination etc? Is it a general view that the universe is created by one god? multiple gods? deism?

Pied_Pfeffer's avatar

For those that reference my question posed to the OP, he already answered it.

@Hypocrisy_Central If you are seriously asking for answers to your question, then it has been shared. There is no need to spout your religious beliefs to mock those of others, or lack thereof. The same goes for the rest of you who are attempting to do so.

How would any of us know how we would react if there is some form of life after human death?

kritiper's avatar

@Pied_Pfeffer “How would any of us know how we would react if there is some form of life after death?’ Simply put, we don’t. At best it was a hypothetical futuristic question that one could only hope to respond to in a hypothetical futuristic manner based on who we are today, what we think today, and if such a non-reality were to actually exist and we could experience it, then respond in the here and now.
Ask us again when we’re dead. You might have more luck.

(I did realize your question was possibly rhetorical.)

Darth_Algar's avatar

@Hypocrisy_Central

Your answer was hardly honest. It was smug and dismissive (as all your responses are). Answer truthfully, if you died and found yourself standing in judgment fore some god other than yours what defense would you make?

Hypocrisy_Central's avatar

@ARE_you_kidding_me Even though I don’t believe bigfoot exists based on elementary logic I’m more inclined to believe in bigfoot than god.
Even if evidence suggest Bigfoot was in your yard you still choose not to believe it. When it comes to certain things like black holes, and all anyone really has to go off is a formula of numbers they created, it could be a partial truth, all the way wrong, or maybe correct, but there is no way to tell without putting boots in the cosmos. Facts that suggest something you reject, unless a Yeti knocked you off your snowmobile you won’t believe in spite of where any evidence points. I cannot see that as a great difference in position.

There is zero evidence for a god that religion describes, zip, zero, nada, zilch, nothing… whatsoever.
You can’t find what you do not use the right method to find. You can’t find termites in a house using a Giger Counter. That is basically the dispensation you are in.

Any scenario you try to come up with is going to fail in comparison to reality because what you are trying to argue has no substance. Without facts or at the very minimum some rudimentary logic that points in the direction of a religious “god” then there is nothing more to say
Then how can I even attempt to breach your next few lines: Please enlighten me with how you have justified this belief. I’m not being condescending. What do you believe honestly As in: if it is religion what form, denomination etc? You have already set yourself up not to believe or even attempt to believe anything that doesn’t fit your scientific logic, and I would have to take you to the spiritual which you can’t or won’t grasp. However, I am going to pray on it to see if there is a way to explain it that you can follow.

@Darth_Algar Your answer was hardly honest. It was smug and dismissive (as all your responses are).
Really? So if my respect level got to the gutter equal to ”Sky Daddy” it would be more honest? If I were to call a gay man a sissy boy because I believed that, no one should get ticked, right? It is just a phrase like sky daddy, if it is not directed to an individual it is just a phrase but someone would take offense. A question was asked, I stayed on point, not trying to debunk the question or prove whatever god was not real, I answered it as what I would say if I ended up in front of one of them. If I did I would surely think it was a psychotic episode from some powerful meds or a brain injury.

Answer truthfully, if you died and found yourself standing in judgment fore some god other than yours what defense would you make?
Truthfully that god would be in my mind and not any sober part of it. If that is not the answer good enough for you, well, too bad on that one.

LostInParadise's avatar

This question is posed to disbelievers, but it could have been given to those of different religions as well. Christianity is currently the religion with the most followers (projected to eventually overtaken by Islam, which must cause God great sadness), but the majority of the world is non-Christian. What is your take on these people? Are they all condemned to damnation for not following Jesus? Are they immoral, or just unenlightened? How do you account for the fact that the major determinant of one’s beliefs is the beliefs of one’s parents? Is Christianity hereditary, or is there some mystical knowledge that Christian parents pass on to their offspring? Or, as seems much more likely, are children brainwashed into the beliefs of their surrounding community?

Darth_Algar's avatar

@Hypocrisy_Central

Have you ever considered the possibility that the amount of respect you are shown here is proportional to the amount that you have shown others?

Yep, your answer was about what I expected. Do not, then, denounce others for not answering honestly.

ARE_you_kidding_me's avatar

@Hypocrisy_Central Just describe what your beliefs are

flutherother's avatar

God has given us a moral sense and the courage to stand up for what we believe in. We can recognise a malicious Deity just as we can recognise a corrupt dictator when we see one. God created sheep but he also created Man and we question everything, even the gods.

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dammitjanetfromvegas's avatar

My turn! My turn! I’m feeling left out @HC. =)

LostInParadise's avatar

@Hypocrisy_Central , Let me boil this all down as far as it can go. How do you know that Christian beliefs are correct and all other religious beliefs are incorrect? Where does this knowledge come from? What makes your leap of faith any more valid than anybody else’s?What makes the Bible any more truthful than the Koran, the Book of Mormon, the Bhagavad Gita or any other holy book? Are you smarter or more moral than the Dali Lama?

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Dutchess_III's avatar

HC If it was such a real believe and a real God, not the makeup god, why is it dead now? It’s not. It morphed in to Christianity, just getting rid of almost all the gods except Zeus. It’s hard not to see the similarities.

If persistence is the deciding factor of the validity of a religion then Hinduism comes in first, Judaism comes in second, and Christianity is tied with Islam for last.

Not if it was FREE Natty Lite, @Rarebear!

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Hypocrisy_Central's avatar

@Dutchess_III.HC If it was such a real believe and a real God, not the makeup god, why is it dead now? It’s not. It morphed in to Christianity, just getting rid of almost all the gods except Zeus.
If that is what you truly think, I have to conclude you really have no inking of the true gospel of Jesus Christ.

Hypocrisy_Central's avatar

@LostInParadise Let me boil this all down as far as it can go. How do you know that Christian beliefs are correct and all other religious beliefs are incorrect? Where does this knowledge come from?
As clear and basic as I can say is experience, I have experienced in life declarations (for lack of a better term) which the Bible told me than those others (yeah, I investigated). The knowledge comes from God by way of the Spirit, but only after I earnestly sought it out, but I would not seek anything I had no faith existed. My faith allowed the Spirit to work in my spiritual growth.

What makes your leap of faith any more valid than anybody else’s?
It isn’t, the difference is, is the faith directed towards something valid, people have unshakable faith in many things, some of it utterly useless.

What makes the Bible any more truthful than the Koran, the Book of Mormon, the Bhagavad Gita or any other holy book?
Who are the source of those books and do they have people they never met back them up and give credibility to it? What type of life did they live, was their walk blameless?

Are you smarter or more moral than the Dali Lama?
Being smarter or not than the Dali Lama is neither here nor there. Really never came to thought and doesn’t matter to me. I am no more or less moral than he, all good deeds or as filthy rags next to the Holiness of Christ, so if he doesn’t have the covering of Christ he could be as moral as a saint but still in the same camp as Joseph Stalin.

Rarebear's avatar

Wow. Not only did he liken comparing calling God as“she” to calling someone a nigger or a faggot, but he just wrote the Dalai Lama is just like Stalin.

Awesome!

Darth_Algar's avatar

I’ve always liked the notion that this supposedly just and loving god would sentence people to eternal torment who not only didn’t kiss his ass enough, but never even had the chance to because they never had to opportunity to hear his name or his word. Yep, punishing people for something that is no fault of their own really sounds like the actions of a just and loving being. Not at all like the action of a petty, jealous, controlling tyrant. And the Devil is suppose to be the malevolent one in this tale?

LostInParadise's avatar

@Hypocrisy_Central : As clear and basic as I can say is experience, I have experienced in life declarations (for lack of a better term) which the Bible told me than those others (yeah, I investigated). The knowledge comes from God by way of the Spirit, but only after I earnestly sought it out, but I would not seek anything I had no faith existed. My faith allowed the Spirit to work in my spiritual growth.

Could you be more specific? I mean no offense, but I can imagine followers of other religions saying the same thing. To an outsider like myself, it sounds like gobbledygook.

Dutchess_III's avatar

@Hypocrisy_Central Just read some Greek Mythology. You can see it for yourself:

Christians say, “God impregnates a human female and they have a son.” And you accept that.

Greeks say, “God impregnates a human female and they have a son.” You reject that.

From the Greek regarding creation: “In the beginning there was only Chaos. Then out of the void appeared Erebus, the unknowable place where death dwells, and Night. All else was empty, silent, endless, dark. Then, Love was born bringing along the beginning of order. From Love emerged Light, followed by Gaea, the earth.” Sound familiar? Not identical but basically the same. Yet you will blow that story off as utter nonsense…but not the same story as told by Christians.

Another reason Christianity didn’t die out is that all powerful Rome took it, molded it, changed it, made up some new stories, got rid of others, called it the Gospels, and made it its own weapon to control the masses, and that was relatively recently. You’ve heard the term “Roman Catholic,” right?
Before Rome preempted it, it was confined to just a relatively small sect of followers in the middle east.

You are still being controlled by that religion, as are many the radical followers of Islam.

flutherother's avatar

@Hypocrisy_Central Out of curiosity, who do you think your God most resembles? Stalin or the Dalai Lama or can you really not detect a difference between the two?

Hypocrisy_Central's avatar

@Rarebear Wow. Not only did he liken comparing calling God as“she” to calling someone a nigger or a faggot, but he just wrote the Dalai Lama is just like Stalin.
Still on stuff that is irrelevant to the question while distorting fact? I said both are in the same disposition, not that they are both the same. You can ask a question on that and it can be explored further, but it has no place in this question.

@Darth_Algar I’ve always liked the notion that this supposedly just and loving god would sentence people to eternal torment who not only didn’t kiss his ass enough, but never even had the chance to because they never had to opportunity to hear his name or his word
We all know your unbelief due to your refusal or inability to reach Him by the ways He provided. If you do not believe the opportunity presented to you and don’t take them, it is on you. Same as if the ship were sinking but you had no knowledge of where the lifeboats were, or refuse to get in one because of some distrust of lifeboats and end up drowning in the sea, it was on you. Curious, is that what you would tell God when you stand before Him, or do you keep planning to rant about your unbelief and why it is more real?

@LostInParadise Could you be more specific? I mean no offense, but I can imagine followers of other religions saying the same thing.
I am not sure if I can, because I do not know how their god operates, I do not know if they have the same attributes as Yahweh. Because I stepped out on faith to believe God and what his Word said, I have seen it in action in my life, to prove it real to me, in my personal experience.

To an outsider like myself, it sounds like gobbledygook.
You are not alone, you simply have no faith. If you try to filter everything through the funnel of science, it will be, but then a lot of science can be called that too because it is only a thought or idea that holds it together and no one has ever probed, measures, felt, handled, smelt, or laid eyes on it.

@Dutchess_III Just read some Greek Mythology. You can see it for yourself:
What Greek Mythology I have read has no correlation to the Bible.

Christians say, “God impregnates a human female and they have a son.” And you accept that.
Yes I do, my spirit by my faith tells me it is correct.

Greeks say, “God impregnates a human female and they have a son.” You reject that.
They do not know Yahweh, so I do not know what intentions or reasoning their god(s) have for doing such. From what I remember their god(s) really did not desire to have coexistence with them, much less giving man the right to be heirs and sons of theirs. Then again, if they were to be as powerful as they claim, why are those they wish to worship them not today? And if you say Christianity covered and overshadowed it, how powerful are they that they cannot even keep their religion, faith, or whatever from being eclipsed by something else; doesn’t sound like a sovereign god to me at all.

You’ve heard the term “Roman Catholic,” right?
That is man’s doing, it is not the gospel as in the Bible as Christ set as a standard for His followers. You have heard of segregation, right? I guess because that happened under the umbrella of democracy, democracy is a fraud and we should have gone communist or something else; since you want to call a system flawed because of how it was implemented by flawed people.

@flutherother Out of curiosity, who do you think your God most resembles?
It has been said, but I will say it again, not that it has any bearing on the question. The Dali Lama follows more the standard of God than Stalin, but that is only from my observation. Again, how they acted makes no difference, both are contaminated by sin and with it unresolved, their outcome and dispensation are the same; it is not works that one is justified.

Dutchess_III's avatar

The story of Zeus impregnating a human female was for the same intention the Christian god story had for impregnating a human female.

I explained why they aren’t around. Rome took all the stories and the myths over, rewrote the history of newly blooming Christian tenants, incorporated it with their own “pagan” religions (pretty much the Greek religion, which had a strong influence on Rome, but probably some Egyptian beliefs too,) mixed them all together, produced a best seller, and filed it under “Non fiction” in the library. Scared the crap out of all the subjects and they did what they were told.

Darth_Algar's avatar

@Hypocrisy_Central

It should be obvious that I was not speaking specifically of myself. I am speaking of those who, though circumstances of their birth, upbringing, location, etc, never heard of your god, your Christ, your Bible, or any of it.

Darth_Algar's avatar

@Dutchess_III

Yup. Christianity became the tool though which Rome maintained its dominance over Europe once they realized their empire was waning.

Soubresaut's avatar

Hello Soubresaut
“Hi, God. So I guess you do exist.”
Clearly.
“Well, I’m sure confused. Definitely thought when I died that would be it… Definitely thought you didn’t exist.”
I know.
“Oh, of course you do, omniscient and all.”
[God stares benevolently.]
“Um… what happens to me now?”
What do you mean?
“Well, I didn’t believe in you. I’ve been told that means I’m damned.”
Ah… no. That little clause was a human creation. It’s easier for some to maintain control over a group of people if those people believe that the some speak for a larger, more powerful entity that will punish disobedience eternally afterward. And it’s easier for some to get people to believe what they say if they claim disbelief will also be eternally punished. People are prudent. Some will hedge their bets. Some believed anyway. Some still won’t believe.
“And you just let them?”
Well, eventually someone gets some stuff right. And I did give you free will. If I go back and start to pick what will be a matter of your free will and what I will override, what good is your free will?
“Um, sure.”
Also, I created an enormous universe. You’re on one small planet. I’m omniscient and omnipotent and omnipresent, but I’m also just a single entity. Being omni-everything for an entire universe is a handful even for me. Some stuff will slip through.
“Oh.”
[God stares benevolently.]
“Well, I guess I’ll see you around…”
We’ll just have to wait and see! But isn’t that half the fun?

Dutchess_III's avatar

But now I need to hear the REST of the story @Soubresaut! That was great!

Rarebear's avatar

Hey hypocrite. Sure it’s relevant. You wrote it.

Seek's avatar

I like the Piers Anthony version of how God treats the unbelievers.

It’s a novel series called “Incarnations of Immortality”. The first one is about the Grim Reaper. The guy learns he’s the new Grim Reaper, and begins his job collecting souls for sorting into the appropriate Afterlife. One of the souls is an atheist who’s died in his bathtub. His conversation with the dude ends with the atheist’s soul simply disappearing. He didn’t believe his soul went anywhere after he died, so it didn’t.

It bears mentioning that Piers Anthony is, himself, an atheist.

Dutchess_III's avatar

I’ve heard that before…what ever you believe will happen, will actually happen.

So, that brings us to…is it what you believe for most of your life, or what you believe in the last minutes before your death? You’ve been a heinous person all your life, believing that you’ll go to hell, but then you “repent” in the last few minutes and believe you’ll go to heaven now.

Seek's avatar

In the Catholic church, deathbed conversion is so well ingrained that priests were (and possibly still are – my study is in Medieval religion, not modern) sent to battlefields to give Extreme Unction to anyone willing to nod their head “yes” before they expired (and some, I’m sure, who couldn’t).

Hypocrisy_Central's avatar

@Soubresaut That was a good story, but story, nothing more.

@Dutchess_III So, that brings us to…is it what you believe for most of your life, or what you believe in the last minutes before your death?
Guess that means no matter how good you behave or what good things you do, you can still share a room in the afterlife with Pol Pot, Hitler, Son of Sam, and who knows……

Seek's avatar

@Hypocrisy_Central – Just to be clear, are they in Heaven or Hell? Hitler believed in the Christian God, at least publicly. David Berkowitz converted to Christianity – the Born Again version, even! – in prison. Is the Son of Sam killer washed in the blood of the Sacrificial Lamb?

Soubresaut's avatar

@Hypocrisy_Central—that’s fair… I think it’s just a story, too.

Coloma's avatar

The Bible is considered to be the greatest “story” ever told too. Yep, it’s all story, man made fiction to explain what was un-explainable for eons. The locusts ate my crop, the gods must be angry. Earthquakes, the gods must be angry, on and on.

Dutchess_III's avatar

I guess that’s exactly what that means, @Hypocrisy_Central, so what is the point?

Hypocrisy_Central's avatar

@Seek Just to be clear, are they in Heaven or Hell? Hitler believed in the Christian God, at least publicly. David Berkowitz converted to Christianity – the Born Again version, even! – in prison. Is the Son of Sam killer washed in the blood of the Sacrificial Lamb?
C’mon now, as deep as you say you were in the faith and they failed to tell you that? I was not there the last moments of Hitler’s life. If he repented and accepted that fact that Christ was Lord over the Earth and not him, and never be him, as he tried to be, then he would have squeaked in with smoky clothes and no furniture. If David Berkowitz repented of his sin of playing God and taking lives that did not belong to him, and earnestly lived the rest of his life for Christ even in prison, the blood of Christ covers him and all of the sins he committed; Christ doesn’t play it stupid like man and is a respecter of persons, there is no sin less one (maybe a short two) that cannot be forgiven. .

Seek's avatar

Hear that, @Dutchess_III?

If you’re good your whole life, you’re going to Heaven with Hitler and David Berkowitz. QED.

Seek's avatar

@Hypocrisy_Central – The scripture is that ”...God is no respecter of persons.” Acts 10:34.

Dutchess_III's avatar

I know. That part just blows. My. Mind. How convenient for all of the Diabolical Roman rulers who murdered and raped millions, but were saved by the bell.
Oh well. It was their story to begin with. It allows them to force people to convert to Christianity and fall under their sovereign.

Hypocrisy_Central's avatar

@Seek The scripture is that ”...God is no respecter of persons.” Acts 10:34.
See, you do have some word in you! I typed it wrong, glad you cleared that up, do not want to lead anyone astray. I guess you know more about the state of Hitler in his dying breath, I would not bet the farm of seeing him in Glory, but I am not God. I would love to be a fly on the wall when he has to explain himself to God.

Darth_Algar's avatar

Yup. If you’re a good, upright, moral person you’re entire life but fail to say the magic words !BAM!, condemned!

But if you’re a vile, murdering, loathesome shitbag of a human being, but you say the magic words just before the buzzer and it’s all good.

Seek's avatar

Sweetie, I have so much of that silly book rattling around in my skull it’s not even funny. I used to do competitive scripture recitation.

dappled_leaves's avatar

@Seek I did that for a while, as a kid. What a bizarre thing to encourage children to compete over! It always struck me as odd.

Rarebear's avatar

heh. “sweetie”
At least you guys got to memorize the scripture in English. I had to memorize it in Hebrew.

Hypocrisy_Central's avatar

@Darth_Algar Yup. If you’re a good, upright, moral person you’re entire life but fail to say the magic words !BAM!, condemned!
But if you’re a vile, murdering, loathesome shitbag of a human being, but you say the magic words just before the buzzer and it’s all good.
Blame God for being compassionate and giving mercy where none is due, if a person repents at the buzzer, at least they did. I guess you would feel better if He did it like man? You can be a upstanding citizen all of your life, get a prison record or something and be objectionable the rest of your life even by those you never transgressed against. I will go with the grace of God.

@Seek 2 Peter 2:21–22
21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them. 22 But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: “A dog returns to his own vomit,” and, “a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire.”
I think you missed that one…..

Seek's avatar

@Rarebear – eh, it was the King James version. Hebrew might have made more sense.

LostInParadise's avatar

@Hypocrisy_Central , What would you say to Allah if it turned out that Islam is the correct religion? I know that you are convinced that such a thing is not possible but, curiously enough, devout Muslims feel the same way about Islam. Since you have not provided us with an argument for Christianity that could not be said by a Muslim about Islam, this remains a possibility.

Is it not strange that believers of different religions are so absolutely certain that their way is the only way? To me it is just another argument in favor of atheism. All these people who are so blinded by faith are all suffering from the same malady.

Darth_Algar's avatar

@Hypocrisy_Central “Blame God for being compassionate and giving mercy where none is due, if a person repents at the buzzer, at least they did. I guess you would feel better if He did it like man? You can be a upstanding citizen all of your life, get a prison record or something and be objectionable the rest of your life even by those you never transgressed against. I will go with the grace of God.”

The objection is more the lack of mercy to those who do deserve it, simply because your god is, by his own word, jealous. Again, kinda goes against the notion of your god being a just and loving one.

Seek's avatar

@Hypocrisy_Central – Um, if Hitler repented and was forgiven, he doesn’t have to answer for anything, and your “fly on the wall” escapade will be quite boring.

Why am I explaining your religion to you?

Also, if a sow doesn’t “wallow in the mire” she will overheat and die. Your scripture’s authors don’t know how pigs work.

flutherother's avatar

@Hypocrisy_Central Going back to your previous answer why does God even have standards of action and behaviour if how people act makes no difference?

Hypocrisy_Central's avatar

@Seek Your scripture’s authors don’t know how pigs work.
That depends on conditions isn’t it, however, there are thousands of things scientist don’t know how it works, but they guestimate quite a lot.

@flutherother Going back to your previous answer why does God even have standards of action and behaviour if how people act makes no difference?
Certain places, instructions etc. here on earth have standards that have nothing to do with how the work is performed or completed. The difference is, the actions that Christ requires is a requirement of being sanctified, which is the best we can get to being holy as He is holy. The actions of behavior of a person can lead to sin or to glory to God and a demonstration of being thankful for being redeemed from the sin and death we earned for ourselves. Those who squeak in at the last dying breath, if they even had time to do so, may get in, but they have no rewards for living the best sanctified life here has they could have and should have….they may get to heaven but the mansion Christ was to set up for them might end up being a studio apartment with no furniture, while they themselves have garments smelling of smoke from almost ending up a l’il’ smoky the rest of their existence.

dappled_leaves's avatar

@Hypocrisy_Central ”... they may get to heaven but the mansion Christ was to set up for them might end up being a studio apartment with no furniture…”

Wait, there are different reward levels in heaven? That’s a new one for me.

Rarebear's avatar

“there are thousands of things scientist don’t know how it works”
Exactly. That’s why we have “science”.

Hypocrisy_Central's avatar

@Rarebear Exactly. That’s why we have “science”.
One reason I love science, they always expose something that God did by mere fact they don’t know exactly how it works, and can reproduce it.

Scientist: I challenge God; I can create a man, human life, just as God did.
God: Oh really now? OK, challenge on, let’s see you create a man, you can go first.
The scientist stoops down and starts to form the dust of the Earth.
God: You said you can do it just as I had, so you make your own dirt, don’t use mine.

Dutchess_III's avatar

No, you seriously think god literally made a fully functioning human being out of dirt in just a second? Wow….sounds like a magic trick to me.

That was another one of those “magic things” I didn’t believe when I was a practicing Christian. God made me smarter than that.

Hypocrisy_Central's avatar

^ No, you seriously think god literally made a fully functioning human being out of dirt in just a second? Wow….sounds like a magic trick to me.
I do not know how long it took, but God doesn’t need my timeframe to do anything, be it a nanosecond, a week, five years or more, He is the sovereign Lord of the Universe he can do as He pleases.

That was another one of those “magic things” I didn’t believe when I was a practicing Christian. God made me smarter than that.
I would suggest using the wisdom He is offering and liberally provides to all who ask Him, so the smarts one has can be properly applied, or it doesn’t matter what atoms you know how to split, it won’t count for nothing once breath leaves the body.

Seriously, you don’t believe, you stated as much you don’t believe, (if you ever really did), you do not even believe you will stand before Him much less bow and confess He is LORD, and see the error of your ways, pay this question of ”magical flavor” no mind, there are plenty of questions about whatever, that you do believe, that would be a more productive use of time.

Dutchess_III's avatar

I do believe that this question was directed specifically at ”nonbelievers.

Smart people must be the bane of God’s existance (ha ha! I crack myself up!) I don’t know why he ever created any.

Seek's avatar

@Hypocrisy_Central – Science has cracked dirt. Your god can’t even create or destroy water. Science has defined how to do that.

Darth_Algar's avatar

@Hypocrisy_Central

Are you seriously complaining about a nonbeliever replying to you when you specifically directed the thread at nonbelievers?

flutherother's avatar

@Hypocrisy_Central Philosophical question, but if you died and discovered that Satan had taken over the show how would you defend your allegiance to God, or would you even try?

dappled_leaves's avatar

@flutherother Hmm. That is a very interesting question, in the context of the OP’s original question, which presumes that “unbelievers” should humbly ask forgiveness of a deity we couldn’t respect. Your question is really the equivalent, from @Hypocrisy_Central‘s point of view.

Hypocrisy_Central's avatar

@Dutchess_III I do believe that this question was directed specifically at ”nonbelievers.”
@Darth_Algar Are you seriously complaining about a nonbeliever replying to you when you specifically directed the thread at nonbelievers?
I guess I needed to put the cookies on the lower shelf. It is directed to unbelievers but those who can step out of their self-centered arrogance to believe they are the smartest, greatest accident the universe ever did. It is not a question of debate if God exist or how He can’t possibly exist, it is a question that as an unbeliever you discover you know you are dead and standing before the God you went around Mars and back to not believe and doom as many who would believe you also. I do not care to hear how you don’t exist or why, I can only pray for those who are lost, I know why they are lost, I know why they are lost if they cannot see the forest for the trees. If you cannot fathom the fact there may be a God you will stand before I made it clear; this is not the question for you. The question for those who believe that would be a question concerning man being the greatest, smartest, most intelligent accident the cosmos ever produced.

@flutherother Philosophical question, but if you died and discovered that Satan had taken over the show how would you defend your allegiance to God, or would you even try?
First, I would have to have some indication whatsoever, he was winning or ultimately will prevail in control; I haven’t. However, in my honest mind I would have to conclude it was some head injury or some high powered meds. If I got by that to the point I actually believed he was in control, I know I would say something, what, I don’t know. If everyone owned up to their traffic infraction, and/or crimes, the courts would almost be ghost towns. People would not go to court to fight the ticket, they will know they rolled through the stop sign, they know the cop who witnessed them know they rolled through the sign so they would just march down to city hall and pay the fine. They don’t, do they? They go to court in hopes that somehow their logic can prevail or the can get some mercy from the judge, no different if you stand before God knowing you never believed in him.

Seek's avatar

man being the greatest, smartest, most intelligent accident the cosmos ever produced.

404: File not found

Hypocrisy_Central's avatar

@Seek man being the greatest, smartest, most intelligent accident the cosmos ever produced.

404: File not found
Of course it can’t be found, it is a folly some men believe that has zero truth in it. Try looking up soverign supreme being and see what you come up with.

kritiper's avatar

It seems to me that if this was such an important question, and this “God” knew that it would be, and that he would be so against any non-believers for not believing in him (or her or it),that he would have made an additional Commandment : “Thou shalt believe in the Lord your God or else!”

Rarebear's avatar

I actually don’t think any atheist here said that humans are the “greatest, smartest, most intelligent accident the cosmos ever produced.” In fact, I’m reasonably certain you’re the only one who wrote it. I’m also reasonably certain that anybody else on this thread, especially Rags (who, after all is from another planet) would not say that.

dappled_leaves's avatar

@Rarebear Indeed, it’s rare to see atheists express that kind of human-centric worldview. By contrast, it is the religious who tend to see the universe through the lens of how humankind is affected. Everything was created as a setting for us or as a resource for us; the sun revolves around the Earth, etc., etc.

Darth_Algar's avatar

@Hypocrisy_Central

I’ve not seen anyone, aside from you, make anything even close to the sentiment that humans are “the smartest, greatest accident the universe ever did”. Why do you even bother asking questions like this when you’re only going to fall back on arguments no one’s made and when you pretty much will not accept any answer given? I honestly do not see what you possibly get out of this other than the masturbatory thrill of stroking your own sense of self-righteousness or the cheap amusement of trolling.

Rarebear's avatar

‘masturbatory thrill of stroking your own sense of self-righteousness ’ Hilarious

Dutchess_III's avatar

Well, @dappled_leaves that is not surprising since God made us in his very own image. Which brings us back to the penis issue….or is it the vagina issue. Wait. Which is his own image? So confused.

Hypocrisy_Central's avatar

@Seek Science has cracked dirt.
Proof? You got a link?

Your god can’t even create or destroy water. Science has defined how to do that.
I have not created a god, so I don’t have one. God, the sovereign creator of the universe, He can, He created it in the first place. Scientist have huh? Link? Have they found a way to create gravity too?

@Rarebear et al I actually don’t think any atheist here said that humans are the “greatest, smartest, most intelligent accident the cosmos ever produced.” In fact, I’m reasonably certain you’re the only one who wrote it.
OK, what else in the universe has man said was smarter and more intelligent? Surely you have heard in the past man or Earth being the only planet to hold intelligent and sentient beings? That make man the de facto smartest most intelligent in the universe because he has yet, to my knowledge, resigned or admitted that there was something else more intelligent.

‘masturbatory thrill of stroking your own sense of self-righteousness ’
For anyone who thinks there is nothing greater than man, that would be them,

@Darth_Algar Why do you even bother asking questions like this when you’re only going to fall back on arguments no one’s made and when you pretty much will not accept any answer given?
There were people who answered the question, as asked and need no rebuke. The question was so simple even a four year old could follow it; you do not believe in God (not any created on as people can’t seem to get), you die, oh snap, you realize you ARE dead and standing before God whom you did not believe, what would you say? Simple as that, the question has nothing to do with what God has or hasn’t done, about the Bible, what science has proven or not, or ANY of that other gobbledygook that was injected to duck, dodge and hide from the question or soapbox their unbelief which is already apparent. If one cannot wrap their head around the fact they could very much stand before the God they did not believe, it was not a question for them in the 1st place because it was a question they don’t believe. Why not address that first?

@Dutchess_III Wait. Which is his own image? So confused.
If the exit sign points to the door in the corner and you refuse to believe it and keep searching for the elevator……well….

Seek's avatar

It’s called the periodic table of the elements. Perhaps you’ve heard of it?

Hypocrisy_Central's avatar

It’s called the periodic table of the elements. Perhaps you’ve heard of it?
Where is the link, what part of the basic elements in it did man create, zinc, iron, gold, boron, potassium, magnesium, what did man make from scratch? Simply making a table off what God did is hardly a feat.

Darth_Algar's avatar

@Hypocrisy_Central

For all your harping on about “needing to put the cookies on a lower shelf”, and “so simple even a four year old could follow it” and your demand that @Dutchess_III leave the thread your question has already been answered, as presented, by her, by myself, but pretty much everyone else here. Perhaps you cannot follow your own thread.

kritiper's avatar

Here’s another question I used to wonder about: Where did this “God” come from?
SO much easier to believe that the Great Void, and all it contains, always was and always will be rather than some imagined all powerful invisible spook created it from nothing.

Inara27's avatar

As we are created in his image, I’d ask him why he chose a form with so many design flaws.

Espiritus_Corvus's avatar

According to everything I’ve read about your god, by the time I reach the pearly gates, my fate has already been decided. So, there is nothing I can say to him that will prevent me from being sent straight to hell. Therefore, the only reason for an exit interview with the almighty would be to satisfy his sadistic need to see one of his creations squirm and beg. I don’t do that. I would tell him the same thing I would tell a person holding a gun to my head that I was sure was going to shoot me: GO FUCK YOURSELF YOU SICK SONUVABITCH!

Joell's avatar

Well if any supernatural being did exist, and if he turned out sensible enough, we the non believers would be the coolest people to him ‘cause we didn’t believe in stuff that was laid down to us through word of mouth. He would admit that it was his fault to not show up his existence and nobody but him could be blamed for that. We’d then sit down and talk about how he felt ‘bout the wars people raise in his name. And exactly why is he a He and not a She.
And in case he turned out to be an autocratic self obsessed ruler seeking my surrender for no reason, I’m up for a revolution. And that’s the bottomline ‘cause Joell said so! ;)

Dutchess_III's avatar

@Hypocrisy_Central Since you asked “Where is the link, what part of the basic elements in it did man create, zinc, iron, gold, boron, potassium, magnesium, what did man make from scratch?Here. The ones in purple were created by homo sapiens.
I wish God would stop giving people the brains to do stuff because he’s just going to get mad at them for it. Not fair!

Rarebear's avatar

It’s actually trivial to create gravity. See if you can think how.

Darth_Algar's avatar

@Rarebear

Anyone who’s ever driven a car fast enough to push you back into the seat has.

Rarebear's avatar

Yup!

Seek's avatar

I created my son, he has mass and thus gravitational pull. I created gravity. QED

Hypocrisy_Central's avatar

@Darth_Algar For all your harping on about “needing to put the cookies on a lower shelf”, and “so simple even a four year old could follow it” and your demand that @Dutchess_III leave the thread your question has already been answered, as presented, by her, by myself, but pretty much everyone else here
Some got in the yard, others if they answered it, their answer got lost in all the extracurricular noise that had nothing to do with the question, or they want to ask me a question on some made-up gods, which also has nothing to do with the question. Or they try answering it concerning a god/goddess that has nothing to do with the question. Makes about as much sense as asking someone which is better, democracy or communism and having someone point out all the atrocities made under the banner of democracy rather than stating which is best with sound logical reasons. If one wanted to dabble into Greek gods, etc. why don’t they ask it in a question of their creation, they have three tries a day.

Anyone who’s ever driven a car fast enough to push you back into the seat has.
Let’s run with that then, create gravity without moving a car, or better yet, cancel out gravity around a boulder while leaving gravity in the field around it. Make gravity on the windshield of a vehicle so no matter how fast it travels a coffee mug will stick to it and not have to manifest itself as stuck to the seat opposite the direction the vehicle is going and only above certain speed, like to hear the smart answer to that.

@kritiper Here’s another question I used to wonder about: Where did this “God” come from?
Why not ask that question and post it and see what people say; however futile and fruitless in this crowd, but I would surely take a stab at it.

SO much easier to believe that the Great Void, and all it contains, always was and always will be rather than some imagined all powerful invisible spook created it from nothing.
If there is any spook, he must have been hanging out with great, great-grandfather 20 times removed that was an ape-man or some other sub human people believe their ancestors were, mine were human from the start.

@Inara27 As we are created in his image, I’d ask him why he chose a form with so many design flaws.
Ask and post that question, then maybe you will see the human body is way more remarkable than flawed.

@Espiritus_Corvus According to everything I’ve read about your god, by the time I reach the pearly gates, my fate has already been decided.
I-did-not-create-ANY-gods, so I have no god. Once you die, yeah, your fate at that point is sealed just like the fate of your vehicle is sealed if you fail to play attention to your operation of it and wrap it around a tree, up to the point it did that, you have opportunity to do things to avoid it. Is that to say you would not seek mercy even if you thought it was a longshot to get?

@Joell Therefore, the only reason for an exit interview with the almighty would be to satisfy his sadistic need to see one of his creations squirm and beg.
So Him providing a way for man to reconcile the relationship that was broken is more sadistic than what man has done to other men? Why don’t you ask that question, could produce some interesting answers. Seeing you do not believe in grace and mercy, don’t waste time going to traffic court ever again, if you ever been, because if a cop fangs you, accept you are guilty and just ask the court to give you the fine, and then pay it.

Well if any supernatural being did exist, and if he turned out sensible enough, we the non believers would be the coolest people to him ‘cause we didn’t believe in stuff that was laid down to us through word of mouth. He would admit that it was his fault to not show up his existence and nobody but him could be blamed for that.
—Alllllllllllrighty then…….we have free will to believe anything we want.

@Dutchess_III The ones in purple were created by homo sapiens.
Did man crate the uranium-238 to get the plutonium from? Did man crate the petroleum to the plastic from? One can assemble if they have the bread, meat, cheese and mayo, but to create one when none of those items were available for use, then we are talking.

@Seek I created my son, he has mass and thus gravitational pull. I created gravity.
Gravity did not exist until your son was born? What held you, your house, and everything else to the Earth; suction? What sort of gravity did you create when you birth your son, is it different from the gravity that was around when I was a child, since your son was not born then? How many different types of gravity is there, since you created one, I am sure others have created some gravity too. Why gravity was never patented? What tangible evidence can you produce to say this gravity you created was not the same gravity here when Pharaoh walked the Earth?

Seek's avatar

I didn’t create the concept of gravity, you idiot. I created a being that has mass and thus has gravitational pull. Gravity is a fundamental force, not a material object.

Hypocrisy_Central's avatar

@Seek I didn’t create the concept of gravity, you idiot.
Struck a nerve did I? We went to the gutter with insults

I created a being that has mass and thus has gravitational pull.
The back pedal, that is not what you said, you said quote ”I created gravity”. That is what you posted correct? You type things you did not intend to say maybe?

Gravity is a fundamental force, not a material object.
And man cannot create it, he can’t even manipulate the elements to get them to produce it as he can electricity. Thank you for proving the point. Maybe they should ask God how He did it?

Seek's avatar

Huh? You can’t “create” electricity, either. Electricity is a form of energy. Energy cannot be created or destroyed, only converted. One can convert kinetic energy into electrical energy using wind or water currents, for instance.

Gravity is a thing that exists because our universe exists. It isn’t “created” or “destroyed” in the sense that it has chemical components that make it up, it’s a force. If a thing has mass, it has gravitational pull. if you put matter together to make a thing, that thing has gravitational pull.

I’ve often pointed this out to preachers back in my religious days and gotten nasty looks, but at no point in the Bible does Biblegod create or destroy water. When the curtain rises the water is there and he is there moving around in it. When he decides to get a wild hair to make the universe, he has to move the water out of the way, and build a dome to hold it up, in order to make space for his creation. Jesus didn’t speak wine into an empty bucket, he only added wine-flavor to a bucket of water.

Now, if I wanted to, it would be totally possible to take hydrogen and oxygen, mix them, set them on fire, and create water. It would be messy, but it can be done.

It would be even easier to destroy the water, by breaking it into its chemical components, hydrogen and oxygen.

And people with better resources and knowledge than I have, can actually create elements wholesale, as @Dutchess_III pointed out.

So yes, we can, theoretically, make our own dirt. Not that it is necessary to do so. No one is trying to be better than some lame myth. Science explains the world as it is observed, not for the sake of annoying theists (that’s just a fun bonus), but because it’s useful, and interesting, and real.

Dutchess_III's avatar

Give it up HC. She’s smarter than you.

Hypocrisy_Central's avatar

@Seek Huh? You can’t “create” electricity, either. Electricity is a form of energy. Energy cannot be created or destroyed, only converted.
I used “create” because you said you created gravity, but I have mention produced, but the issue remains the same; man cannot conjure up gravity in spite of claiming to know how it is made.

Gravity is a thing that exists because our universe exists. It isn’t “created” or “destroyed” in the sense that it has chemical components that make it up, it’s a force.
And if you believe the universe miraculously came together perfectly for no reason completely on its own, that is a good daydream.

I’ve often pointed this out to preachers back in my religious days and gotten nasty looks, but at no point in the Bible does Biblegod create or destroy water. When the curtain rises the water is there and he is there moving around in it.

Genesis 1:1; 9,10
1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.2 The earth was without form, and void; and darkness was[a]on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters.
9 Then God said, “Let the waters under the heavens be gathered together into one place, and let the dry land appear”; and it was so. 10 And God called the dry land Earth, and the gathering together of the waters He called Seas. And God saw that it was good.
God did create water, the water was on the Earth He created, it was not floating around in nothing. Where did this water gather in one place to make dry land and seas, in the vacuum of space? Maybe you best keep to science, the Bible stuff you seem to be amiss at terribly.

And people with better resources and knowledge than I have, can actually create elements wholesale, as @Dutchess_III pointed out.
Curious, you suggest God had to use what was already existent while mere mortal men can actually produce or create basic elements. I can make a bologna sandwich if I have bread, cheese, mayo and meat, but like anything man has created, he had to start with something, he has never made something that did not exist as a basic element on this Earth.

Seek's avatar

@Hypocrisy_Central – Don’t leave stuff out.

Verse 2 – the spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

The waters were already there.

Then he made light, (verse three) then he separated the light and darkness, then he made a firmament to divide the waters (some water on top of the firmament, some water below it) and called the firmament “heaven”. (verse five, I think. I’m doing this from memory)

It literally says the Earth was without form, and void and the spirit was moving on the waters. The waters were there, literally in the void, according to the silly myth that you just posted.

You do know how to read, right?

Seek's avatar

@Hypocrisy_Central Yes, scientists have created and continue to create synthetic elements. You can deny this as loudly as you like, you’ll just be loud and wrong.

Darth_Algar's avatar

@Hypocrisy_Central

You have done (as you always do in your threads) more than your share of insulting. Don’t whine when someone insults you back as @Seek did. As I pointed out before – the amount of respect you receive here is proportional the amount that you give.

Dutchess_III's avatar

I read a post today that had an article attached. The article was written my a Christian. My favorite part was “I’m tired of scientific ignorance being treated as if it’s a Christian virtue.”

Rarebear's avatar

You can conjure gravity. It’s really really really easy to do. It’s even easier than creating electricity which is also really easy.

ARE_you_kidding_me's avatar

If you are talking about acceleration or using centripetal forces that’s not really gravity
However, we intrinsically have created gravity with our own mass
….and we can’t make elements without having precursor material to work with, I would struggle to call them synthetic since they are also created by stars but have short, unstable half lives
I can’t believe this shit is still going either

Rarebear's avatar

Yes it is really gravity.

ARE_you_kidding_me's avatar

Ok so yes there is acceleration due to gravity but acceleration due to a v8 with the pedal to the floor is not due to gravitation. Neither is the centripetal force that can be used to simulate gravity. Newtonian anyway

Rarebear's avatar

It’s the same thing. Look up “Equivalence Principle”

We could get into a discussion of the General Theory of Relativity but it is so far off topic that it is sure to be modded

kritiper's avatar

@Hypocrisy_Central Thank you ever so much for those suggestions but I found my own answers to those issues many years ago.
I have to wonder if your religion promises your kind a higher position in your heaven if you somehow convince agnostics and/or atheists to change their thinking to your way.
Good luck with that.

Joell's avatar

@Hypocrisy_Central So you basically insist us to make an assumption which was real hard in the first place, put our opinions considering that assumption, and then you dismiss or find flaws in our statements. It doesn’t really make sense to me.
One, I didn’t say it was sadistic, I started from where you left me: a sadistic position, to quote you, Before being sent to everlasting damnation, what defense would you attempt to use to try and save yourself? So I assume I have to save myself for a fault that wasn’t mine. It is sadistic.
Two, I put my opinion on a hypothetical situation, now for you to suggest how I should cope with a traffic offence on the same lines, is completely out of sense. Traffic courts DO exist. And if I did violate the laws, I’m guilty and do not find it unnecessary to pay the fine.
Three, quoting Bible in evidence of a divine existence is like quoting a Spiderman comic in evidence of Spidey’s escapades around the Times Square. Except that the latter still has authentic sources about the authors.
@Seek @Dutchess_III @Darth_Algar Let’s get down for a barbecue some day :)

ARE_you_kidding_me's avatar

@Rarebear Ok, In that sense I believe you now.

Dutchess_III's avatar

Would be fun @Joell. ... Who are you?!

Rarebear's avatar

@ARE_you_kidding_me Cool. Relativity is amazing.

ARE_you_kidding_me's avatar

@Rarebear Yeah, I’m a little behind the curve on relativity. In engineering we are drilled in Newtonian Physics. Got a little taste of it in modern physics but they blow by that stuff so fast it’s hard to retain it.

Joell's avatar

@Dutchess_III Just a new guy on the block. Learning how it works :)

Hypocrisy_Central's avatar

@Seek Don’t leave stuff out.
Verse 2 – the spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
I didn’t, what bible are you reading, one that came in a box of Crackerjacks? God created the heavens and the Earth, the water was created ON THE EARTH when the Earth was created. It said ”darkness was over the face of the deep”, most people know the deep as the ocean; we are up to speed on that I hope? Here is the key……wait for it….the Spirit of God hovered over this water that was created on the Earth. Your turn, let’s see you try and put a Trump political spin on that.

Yes, scientists have created and continue to create synthetic elements. You can deny this as loudly as you like, you’ll just be loud and wrong.
I know it is hard to follow but let me put the cookie on the lowest shelf. What I stated is that whatever elements, material etc. man has created, he only done so with and through chemical, elements, material, etc. that was already here, show me something scientist have created using nothing that existed here on Earth? Show me something man has made where you can’t find carbon, iron, zinc, magnesium, etc. or any other elements in the periodic table of the elements? Just one little thing that has an element totally man-made, not made from anything found or present on this planet, that is all I am looking for, just one.

@Darth_Algar You have done (as you always do in your threads) more than your share of insulting. Don’t whine when someone insults you back as @Seek did. As I pointed out before – the amount of respect you receive here is proportional the amount that you give.
Oh, who did I call and ”idiot” (though I suppose if I wanted to be nasty and the mods were asleep, I could set off a fire that would be legendary by Vietnam standards)? I know when someone goes to the gutter with insults, by my experience is that is the bottom of theor ammo box because they have no real firepower left. Yeah, respect does go a long way, if one clearly states which God is being spoken of, and the person isn’t obtuse they would know it is no ”she”, or created being god, to insist on that and not be obtuse is just disrespect. If they can’t put themselves in the question, then it is not a question for them. Makes about as much sense as someone asking questions about those who travel by commercial jet, and having someone who only travels by private jet or plane try to answer, or not answer, but simply say private air travel is the way the go)

@Rarebear You can conjure gravity. It’s really really really easy to do. It’s even easier than creating electricity which is also really easy.
You would go on record to say if it were possible for me to go into the vacuum of space and cobble together enough cotton balls to make a spear 40% larger than the Moon; those cotton balls would create gravity? Link?

@ARE_you_kidding_me I can’t believe this shit is still going either
When people can’t follow the question, I will take the grace road and say miscomprehension, over willful ignorance, this is what happens.

@kritiper I have to wonder if your religion promises your kind a higher position in your heaven if you somehow convince agnostics and/or atheists to change their thinking to your way.
A move back in the direction of the original question, a good sign I hope ~~ No, any more than a person who dies with the sin of lying will be in a cooler place than a serial rapist. It resolves me of having their blood on my hands, the same as if they were in a flaming building and could not find the door out because of the smoke, and I did not open the door and yell to them to come this way and escape, but walked on by leaving them to become li’l smokies.

@Joell So you basically insist us to make an assumption which was real hard in the first place,….]
How hard is it to pass a question you can’t get into or relate? Would you answer a question about how would you ride Godzilla through Manhattan if you can’t believe Godzilla would actually be real enough to ride? Would you answer the question but insist on turning Godzilla into Dumbo because you can relate better to Dumbo than Godzilla? If the concept was too deep for you (or anyone else) to get into mentally, it was not a question for you, there are tons of questions I am sure are more suitable.

Rarebear's avatar

” You would go on record to say if it were possible for me to go into the vacuum of space and cobble together enough cotton balls to make a spear 40% larger than the Moon; those cotton balls would create gravity? Link?”

What the fuck are you talking about?

dappled_leaves's avatar

@Hypocrisy_Central “What I stated is that whatever elements, material etc. man has created, he only done so with and through chemical, elements, material, etc. that was already here, show me something scientist have created using nothing that existed here on Earth? ”

“Here is the key……wait for it….the Spirit of God hovered over this water that was created on the Earth.”

@Seek has a point here. You condemn scientists because they only “create” things from materials that already exist. By the same argument, the oceans, rivers, and clouds are only “created” from the water that was already there. You haven’t shown that the waters were created by God, you have only said what he did with the water that he found. For all we know, it could have been floating around in some otherwise blank, pre-universe space. You can’t possibly know otherwise.

Further, this means that God didn’t “create” man, since he was simply formed from dust. But wait, the bible literally does say that God created man, doesn’t it? I think you’re going to have to relax your criteria for the term “create”, @Hypocrisy_Central. Creation must include making things from materials that already existed.

Seek's avatar

The water was there before the earth was created. That is what it says. The water was there before light, before night and day, before the heavens. That is what it says.

Seek's avatar

Furthermore, scientists aren’t trying to “be god” and create from nothing elements that already exist. They simply explain how those elements are formed naturally, without any helping hand from any creator (who lacks any sufficient explanation for its evidence-free existence).

BellaB's avatar

Great question. I think the first thing I’d do is try to figure out what language to speak in – if language is even used wherever that deity ends up being. I hope I wouldn’t get so hung up on the communication question that I’d forget that I had something I wanted/needed to say.

Dutchess_III's avatar

I think maybe God is really a scientist.

ARE_you_kidding_me's avatar

God is a programmer

Dutchess_III's avatar

That too.

Dutchess_III's avatar

He is also a physician with magic powers. Unlike @Rarebear.

Rarebear's avatar

No. I play the banjo.
Ironically, right exactly now I am working on a gospel song all about miracles. Great song.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XHs18aUobfk

Hypocrisy_Central's avatar

@Seek The water was there before the earth was created. That is what it says.
That is not what it said but since you are hell bent on misinterpreting it, knock yourself out. Has no relevance to the OQ.

Furthermore, scientists aren’t trying to “be god” and create from nothing elements that already exist. They simply explain how those elements are formed naturally, without any helping hand from any creator (who lacks any sufficient explanation for its evidence-free existence).
*That is the political spin I knew I’d see!. Unless there is a link out there were it is accepted by science than man is not the smartest entity in the universe, he believes he is close enough, just no real power.

@Rarebear What the fuck are you talking about?
You forgot what you said? Did you or did you not say ”You can conjure gravity. It’s really really really easy to do. It’s even easier than creating electricity which is also really easy.”. Let’s redirect, though it has no relevance here, how can you conjure up gravity and do you have an example to show to prove you can do it?

Rarebear's avatar

Sure. Get in a car and push on the accelerator. Feel how you get pushed to the back of the seat.

That’s gravity.

Hypocrisy_Central's avatar

^ Sure. Get in a car and push on the accelerator.
Believe those leather seats have gravity, I guess when the vehicle hits a tree the gravity from the dashboard is greater. If gravity needs movement then it is not great gravity, and how would you spin the gravity on the Moon since it doesn’t spin?

Seek's avatar

^ it’s like he’s trying to speak to me, I know it…

ARE_you_kidding_me's avatar

@HC see above discussion on relativity.

Rarebear's avatar

@Hypocrisy_Central
“Believe those leather seats have gravity,”
They do, actually (a very tiny amount), but that’s not what pushes you back in the seat. That’s called inertia.

“If gravity needs movement then it is not great gravity”
Gravity doesn’t need movement, it needs acceleration

”, and how would you spin the gravity on the Moon since it doesn’t spin?”
First of all, the moon does spin.
Second of all, the Moon has gravity because of its mass, not because of the spin.

Dutchess_III's avatar

All things on earth have gravity.

gorillapaws's avatar

Anything with MASS has gravity. There’s an equation for calculating the gravitational force between 2 objects. Newton figured it out.

Brian1946's avatar

^ As my fellow physicist from the Planet of the Apes will attest, because cotton balls have mass, even they have gravity. ;-)

Rarebear's avatar

Yup. And if you get a bunch of cotton balls that all together have the mass of the moon, and you put it in orbit around the Earth then you get a Moon! And it will even be brighter than our current moon which actually has a pretty low albedo all things considered.

Brian1946's avatar

^ Now that’s what I call cookies-on-top-shelf astrophysics: boo yah!

Dutchess_III's avatar

Wait. The moon isn’t made of cotton. It’s made of blue cheese.

ARE_you_kidding_me's avatar

Much larger too…

Hypocrisy_Central's avatar

@Rarebear Sure. Get in a car and push on the accelerator.
Believe those leather seats have gravity, I guess when the vehicle hits a tree the gravity from the dashboard is greater. If gravity needs movement then it is not great gravity, and how would you spin the gravity on the Moon since it doesn’t spin?

First of all, the moon does spin.
If the Moon spun as well as just circle the Earth, then why does the same face of the moon appear when a full moon cycles through, why never a different view like Mars or Saturn?

Gravity doesn’t need movement, it needs acceleration
I am sure you will enlighten us on how you can have acceleration without movement. That would be kind of like having water but no moisture content at all.

Yup. And if you get a bunch of cotton balls that all together have the mass of the moon, and you put it in orbit around the Earth then you get a Moon!
“You see, he can be taught,” Scytale said. [Dune Messiah]. As I was alluding to earlier when you said you did not know what I was talking about, if it is all about mass, cobble together items that have no apparent mass, they will somehow create gravity if you have enough. There is, however, how alleged swirling gas can create gravity when gas has no real density….it will not get me or stop me from and eternity of paradise so it has not real importance, I can ask Christ all those mysteries man never was allowed to discover or decompile.

ragingloli's avatar

I am sure at some point you held an item of clothing made of cotton. Go ahead and tell us how it had no mass.
Here is a list of gas densities

But please, continue. Tell us how it is impossible to get to a kilometer by stringing together 1.000.000 mm

Stinley's avatar

@Hypocrisy_Central I’ve kind of lost interest in this question but I can explain the face of the moon thing . Try this simple experiment. Put a chair in the middle of the room. Face the chair. Look up at the wall. Walk halfway round the chair, still facing the chair. Look up at the wall. You have turned half way round. Walk back round to your original spot. You have now turned a complete turn. 360 degrees. The moon does this too. The day on the moon ( how long it takes to spin on its axis) is the same as its year (how long it takes to circle the earth). No matter what you believe made this , it’s still pretty cool. I love astronomy

Seek's avatar

“cobble together items that have no apparent mass,”

You again demonstrate your lack of understanding of monosyllabic words.

Everything that is stuff has mass. All matter has mass. Air has mass.

Everything that has mass has gravitational pull. Since everything that is matter has mass, everything that is matter has gravitational pull.

Rarebear's avatar

1) “Believe those leather seats have gravity, I guess when the vehicle hits a tree the gravity from the dashboard is greater. If gravity needs movement then it is not great gravity, and how would you spin the gravity on the Moon since it doesn’t spin?”

It’s not the seat or the dashboard that creates gravity that you experience, but acceleration. You’re in an inertial frame of reference, and when your frame of reference undergoes some sort of acceleration, you experience that as “gravity”. Anytime there is a delta-V of some kind, that manifests itself as gravity.

2) If the Moon spun as well as just circle the Earth, then why does the same face of the moon appear when a full moon cycles through, why never a different view like Mars or Saturn?

Your first good question. The moon spins once every 28 days, keeping its same face to the Earth. Here’s how you can show it to yourself. Put something on the ground and then face it. Then move around it in a circle, but keep facing it. See how you have to spin once per revolution? That’s what the moon does. It’s “tidally locked”. In a gazillion years, the Earth will slow down enough so that the same face of the Earth will face the moon. Then the Earth will be tidally locked to the moon also.

3) Not going to cut and paste this one.
As Rags and Seek have written (very patiently, I might add), everything, including gas, has gravity. That’s how the solar system was formed.

Darth_Algar's avatar

@Hypocrisy_Central ” if it is all about mass, cobble together items that have no apparent mass, they will somehow create gravity if you have enough. There is, however, how alleged swirling gas can create gravity when gas has no real density”

A perfect example of how you have no real understanding of such things, yet you presume to argue them. Everything that is made of matter (which is everything except light) has mass.

Hypocrisy_Central's avatar

@Seek You again demonstrate your lack of understanding of monosyllabic words.
Maybe I should have said ”recordable mass” as it has gravity than can be detected without some wild machines. However, I thought the context of the conversation would come to that conclusion, guess I was wrong. However, I have more than enough knowledge on things that matter. You and a few others, on threads like these by lack of ability to truly answer, or incorrect comments made show your apparent lack of spiritual understanding. If it came down to understanding how God made the atom, or understanding how to have a right relationship with Him, I will go with the right relationship with Him, because knowing (or thinking you know) how an atom is put together, quantum physics, etc. is not going to save anyone. You can pass that on to your pal @Darth_Algar. Let’s just do each other a favor, you stick to science and leave spiritual things to those experienced in it, and I will happily leave the physics all to you guys.

@Rarebear It’s not the seat or the dashboard that creates gravity that you experience, but acceleration. You’re in an inertial frame of reference, and when your frame of reference undergoes some sort of acceleration, you experience that as “gravity”. Anytime there is a delta-V of some kind, that manifests itself as gravity.
There is the rub, it manifest itself as gravity, but it is not true gravity, any more than if I were in an aircraft and it took a sharp dive while in a climb where the inertia wanting to propel me upward while the floor of the air craft is moving away from me and manifest itself as weightlessness, but it is _not true weightlessness.

Your first good question. The moon spins once every 28 days, keeping its same face to the Earth. Here’s how you can show it to yourself. Put something on the ground and then face it. Then move around it in a circle, but keep facing it. See how you have to spin once per revolution?
Well I was looking at it as more of a planet spinning on its axis not circling another object. Race care circle the track, that is the way most people I ever met saw it, not that the cars where spinning around the pit area.

As Rags and Seek have written (very patiently, I might add), everything, including gas, has gravity. That’s how the solar system was formed.
No matter what (even the unexplainable) you will have a science answer for, how does this mass of gas, 100s of thousands or light years apart just decide on what point to all congregate in to be so dense and tight as to become a planet? What answer do you have for that, pray tell?

@Stinley The day on the moon ( how long it takes to spin on its axis) is the same as its year (how long it takes to circle the earth).
I know how the Moon rotates, but you call that spinning? So we are on the same page, if I were at Fisherman’s Warf having a conversation with you but stepping sideways while rotating 360 deg around you but still facing you I would be spinning, and that would be the same as if I circled you 360 while spinning on my heels so at times I was facing away from you, and you see that as the same if I were not moving but stationary in front of you but spinning like a top on my heals so I was at times facing away from you?

No matter what you believe made this , it’s still pretty cool. I love astronomy
Science is really cool, all aspects of it. When man thinks he figured out how something was done, to me it magnifies God even more. Thinking you know how something works, and being able to do it is something different. If you have bread, peanut butter, jam, and a knife and you say you know how the PB&J is supposed to go; peanut butter and jam on the inside bread on the outside, yet still cannot make a sandwich, why not, it was not that hard for God. Man thinks he knows how salmon can find their way back to where they were born, but it still comes down to a best guess. I don’t have to know how everything in the universe works to appreciate it. And to know how we humans look at all that and go ”ooh ahh”, that is how my Father in heaven looks down and says of me.

Darth_Algar's avatar

All mass is recordable. But by all means, keep trying to move your goalposts.

Seek's avatar

It’s cute how he thinks he’s the only person who’s experienced religion, isn’t it? Especially when I used to defend these inane arguments from his side back in the Answerbag days, and he was more than satisfied with my knowledge then.

Hypocrisy_Central's avatar

^ .. he was more than satisfied with my knowledge then.
If you said 7+3=10, then years later say 6+5=10 why would I want to go with the incorrect answer when you changed from the correct one?

Hypocrisy_Central's avatar

@Darth_Algar But by all means, keep trying to move your goalposts.
My goal post are where they started, some have hat danced around trying to change the game to basketball, rugby, lacrosse, or badminton, etc. because the blitz was too great for them.

Rarebear's avatar

@Hypocrisy_Central You haven’t been reading the whole thread as this is a rehash of what I wrote before, but that’s okay.

“There is the rub, it manifest itself as gravity, but it is not true gravity, any more than if I were in an aircraft and it took a sharp dive while in a climb where the inertia wanting to propel me upward while the floor of the air craft is moving away from me and manifest itself as weightlessness, but it is _not true weightlessness.”

Let’s break this up
1) It is true gravity. That’s EXACTLY what gravity is; it’s an acceleration of something in an inertial frame of reference. It’s not “like” gravity, it IS gravity.

2) If you jump off a stool to the ground. You will be airborne for a second. For that second you ARE weightless. You are falling freely. That’s exactly what weightlessness is.

3) Race cars circle the track. If you were going to put an axis in the middle of the race car, you’d see it spins on its axis once around the track. Just like the moon.

4) The density of gas in a nebula is much greater than one molecule every few light years

@ragingloli I’m a big fan of Meghan Gray.

Hypocrisy_Central's avatar

^ Whatever, I am done with that, no matter what you have some spin worthy of Trump to put on it. It works for the benefit of man because God designed it that way; He has the bread, the peanut butter, the jam and the knife and can actually make a sandwich not say how it supposed to go together but can’t ever make one. Every iota of human intelligence is foolishness to God because it can’t save a single being. It works the way it works and of I never know how while I am here on this planet, it has no effect on my salvation or my eternity. Go ahead and think how you wish, God gave you free will to use as you see fit.

Rarebear's avatar

Okeydoke. You did ask so I answered.

You mentioned spin. Spin does cause gravity by changing angular momentum vectors. Just sayin’

Dutchess_III's avatar

I’m thinking of that article I read, written by a Christian, who is sick of Christians acting like, among other things, scientific ignorance is a virtue. Jesus, @Hypocrisy_Central. The moon spins !

Rarebear's avatar

Word.

Hypocrisy_Central's avatar

@Dutchess_III The moon spins !
I see, because the same word is applied to it rotating around the Earth you are trying to truncate it under it spinning on its axis as the earth, Jupiter, Mars, and the other planets do. By the context you should have known that was the spinning being spoken of but the intangible spin that goes n around here I guess did not let that be seen.

Rarebear's avatar

It does spin on its axis. Once a rotation.

Hypocrisy_Central's avatar

^ Is that the same way Jupiter, Earth, Mars, etc. spin? That is the spinning i am speaking of or did you miss that?

Response moderated (Unhelpful)
Mariah's avatar

Yes, it spins (rotates). It revolves around the Earth but it also rotates on its axis. The same side could not face the Earth all the time while it revolved if it weren’t also rotating. The reason the same side always faces the Earth is because it is tidally locked with the Earth. This is well understood and explained by physics.

ARE_you_kidding_me's avatar

basically all moons become tidally locked

Mariah's avatar

Yep. Not an unusual or special situation in the least.

Rarebear's avatar

HC. Yes.

Dutchess_III's avatar

Do you understand how the moon works now, HC? Pop quiz tomorrow.

Hypocrisy_Central's avatar

^ Do I get to pop quiz you in how spiritual matters work to see if you have a greater understanding? Your eternity might hinge on it where mine is unaffected by which spin we are speaking of in context…..just saying…..

Dutchess_III's avatar

I already know all of that. I was raised a Christian, born again in the 80’s. Began to question it in 2007. There is nothing you can tell me that I haven’t already heard and pondered at length.

I prefer to deal with real stuff. Like the phases of the moon. Do you know what causes the phases of the moon?

Hypocrisy_Central's avatar

^ Do you know what causes the phases of the moon?
I am sure I learned about it somewhere in my life, but it is mostly irrelevant, as it is with most people. Does the young lady duped into the sex trade and being traffic against her will care? Does the man trying to figure how to get food to his two youngest children to keep them alive until the UN relief truck comes in 2 days care? Does the wealthy woman getting a tan on her mega yacht cares? The moon will do what it does long before I was here and long after I am gone, I play no cause in its actions as it has no importance in mine.

If you say you know all about how God works but then decided He doesn’t work, or work the way you want Him to, is about like learning how gravity works but then deciding because you can’t see gravity it doesn’t work and try to walk from the roof of your house to the roof of your detached garage and thinking you won’t fall to the patio severely damaging something. Just go on and bank your salvation on science….one you stop breathing pray it works for you, if it doesn’t you will have a long time to think about it.

Dutchess_III's avatar

Your ranting about God isn’t doing all of those people any good either, @HC.

You are free to believe what you want. I believe that if a chimp or a possum or a frog or my dog doesn’t have a soul that will go on after death, then neither do I. There is nothing about me that is any different or more special than any other animal.

The moon’s phases are caused by the earth’s shadow on it.

Seek's avatar

Not being afraid of hell is so much more fun.

Mariah's avatar

The Earth’s shadow striking the moon is a lunar eclipse, which is different from ordinary moon phases. The phases are caused by the relative positions of the Earth, sun, and moon. For example, if the sun is on the “right side” of the moon (right side being the side that looks like it’s on the right from the point of view of the Earth) only the right half of the moon will appear to be lit from the Earth (a first quarter moon).

Hypocrisy_Central's avatar

@Dutchess_III Your ranting about God isn’t doing all of those people any good either, @HC.
I think your soapboxing of the wonders of man because certain things were revealed to him and other things he figures he knows is certainly not helping. I am just giving them a fighting chance; they have free will to believe what they want. When they die they will know if they chose the right path or not. Where gravity comes from, if man has ever made it, or any other element from scratch, of if spinning like a top or spinning as in rotation can make gravity is irrelevant to this thread, because none of that can save anyone. When you die none of that will be effected, and it will not affect one’s afterlife. Enjoy while you can, how you can, and pray it was the right course, if it is not, as I say, you will have a long, long time to think about it.

Dutchess_III's avatar

Thank you @Mariah. I had to think about that for a bit. I stand corrected.

I’m not soap boxing of the wonders of man, HC. I’m soap boxing on the wonders of nature. It’s mind blowing. Much more fascinating than magic.

You’re giving who a fighting chance? Do you go out and preach to the homeless as they lay, starving to death, reassuring them they’ll go to heaven if they just say some magic words? Do you give them food too? Or just magic words?

Seek's avatar

I can promise you, being an asshole in the Name of Jesus isn’t saving any souls. In fact, you’re likely turning people away.

Hope St. Peter or whoever doesn’t keep a running tally of souls that would have been saved had you kept your mouth shut once in a while.

dappled_leaves's avatar

@Mariah “The Earth’s shadow striking the moon is a lunar eclipse, which is different from ordinary moon phases.”

@Dutchess_III is right – the difference is that during the regular phases of the moon, the Earth’s shadow does not completely shade the moon’s surface. “The Earth’s shadow striking the moon” is only a lunar eclipse if it happens to obscure the whole lunar face.

Dutchess_III's avatar

…Now I stand uncorrected! LOL!

Mariah's avatar

Then how would a new moon be different from a total lunar eclipse?

Dutchess_III's avatar

They’d be the same thing.

Wait. We can’t talk about this stuff. It isn’t doing the homeless people any good.

Mariah's avatar

But they’re not the same. We don’t have a lunar eclipse every month.

(lol!)

dappled_leaves's avatar

@Mariah Aw, you’re entirely correct! Thanks for setting me straight. I haven’t thought about this stuff in years – I think the counterintuitive bit is that new moon. It doesn’t really seem possible that we’d see the new moon or the waxing crescent, given the relative positions of the sun and moon. But of course it is, as is demonstrable using small-scale analogues.

Why am I insisting on trying to post when Fluther is being glitchy?

Dutchess_III's avatar

I stand corrected on my uncorrected as well as over corrected and politically corrected to boot.

I know, right @dappled_leaves? Hope they fix it soon…

Hypocrisy_Central's avatar

@Dutchess_III I’m not soap boxing of the wonders of man, HC. I’m soap boxing on the wonders of nature. It’s mind blowing. Much more fascinating than magic.
It is a nature, and ecosystem God created, that is why it is so fascinating. As much as I find it fascinating, it will not save me, just give me more to ask God about when I am in His presence. Whenever you start lauding man for his, in reality, petty accomplishments, you are pumping man up when in actuality with the totality of things, have done very little, and not all of it remotely useful.

@Seek I can promise you, being an asshole in the Name of Jesus isn’t saving any souls. In fact, you’re likely turning people away.
IF, and that is arbitrary, I am an asshole according to you, for trying to keep people off a sinking ship, I know my Lord will not hold it against me. I am content to say what need to be said and go my way, but if people spread misinformation and all out lies to get people on the sinking ship and I not say anything about it, that will be counted against me.

Hope St. Peter or whoever doesn’t keep a running tally of souls that would have been saved had you kept your mouth shut once in a while.
How many lost would have been saved because they reexamined the boat they thought so watertight if they would just reason to listen. Then again, you do not have to be on this thread, there are plenty of question about what this dream means, do he like me, or what ca n I do to get my dog to do this or that, you can be on them helping them people instead of letting this thread, assholes or not, vex you; it is exercising free will. ~~

Seek's avatar

Sweetie, there’s nothing about you that vexes me. It’s sheer comedic value at this point.

Darth_Algar's avatar

@Hypocrisy_Central

I assure you, contrary to your claims of “just giving people a fighting chance”, that you’re not winning people over. Especially with your chosen method of delivery. If you really want to save souls then you might want to rethink your technique. Nobody ever won anyone over by being an asshole about it.

Hypocrisy_Central's avatar

^ I assure you, contrary to your claims of “just giving people a fighting chance”, that you’re not winning people over. Especially with your chosen method of delivery.
That depends, if the climate has people willing to reason and get beyond their own willfulness, they can, and have. I expect no one here to be saved by me less the Spirit do a great work here, I know whose house I am in, all I can do it say the bridge is out and if people care not to believe it, when they are falling they will; but it will be too late then.
,
Nobody ever won anyone over by being an asshole about it.
I would say being an asshole or worse, a stupid redacted would e to know which God is being spoken of and try to reduce Him to the Easter bunny, Osiris, Zeus, or calling Him a she. I would have to lean on the side of ignorance or not being able to comprehend which God is being spoken of because of unfamiliarity with the bible not just plain stupidity in not wanting to recognize who. Certainly no one will find salvation being willfully ignorant. Darkness hate the Light, so I guess the only place I would be considered an asshole in in a place very, very dark.

Dutchess_III's avatar

I can’t get over this insistence that God has a penis and XY chromosomes.

” Darkness hate the Light, so I guess the only place I would be considered an asshole in in a place very, very dark.” That is the sanctimonious justification for bad behavior that too many Christians use to behave hatefully. God is on their side, so it’s OK. That is what is driving people away from churches.

Hypocrisy_Central's avatar

^ I can’t get over this insistence that God has a penis and XY chromosomes
THAT is an insistence of your creation, I never said it or alluded to it. You are stuck n that because the eyes of your enlightenment is not open in part because you will never entertain that it could.

That is the sanctimonious justification for bad behavior that too many Christians use to behave hatefully.
Because I speak what is a natural truth as well and a spiritual universal truth, you want to say sanctimonious, but by physical law, there is light and darkness, unbelievers want to believe everything is light or dark, but then don’t even want to live by those rules. One never thinks he same manner thy view the real being told to them is how the unreal and purposely obnoxious comments made about God, even when they KNOW which God is being spoken of, make unbelievers look like arrogant, egotistical, demigods with delusions of grandeur. Also it would equal people ignoring biology and saying nature got it wrong and I was supposed to be another as a justification to live outside their design purpose in sin; no one likes the logic applied back on them though.

Seek's avatar

Dude. If you’re trying to convince people to like the god that you represent, arguing with them about how arrogant they are is not the way to do it.

Dutchess_III's avatar

You said it was an insult to refer to God as a “she” and not a “he.” Those are the physical differences between men and women. I didn’t make it up.

Your arguments are entrenching me further and further into my growing dislike of religions, @Hypocrisy_Central. Too many of them are just like you, and not enough are like KnowItAll, and other gentle, intelligent Christians here and on Facebook.

How are you going to explain that to your maker after you die?

Seek's avatar

I think he’s one of those vindictive Christians who giggles with glee at the thought of people burning in hell, and he actually wants us all to go there.

Brian1946's avatar

@Dutchess_III ”...not enough are like KnowItAll, and other gentle, intelligent Christians here….” I think that’s basically true, especially about Judi, who I see as being like MLK, Jr. in that regard.

Hypocrisy_Central's avatar

@Seek Dude. If you’re trying to convince people to like the god that you represent, arguing with them about how arrogant they are is not the way to do it.
Again, as I have told you before I did not make a god, and I surely do not represent any made up god. You may call it an argument (usually people do when their reasoning is left short) I say reasoning. I would not have to see anyone as arrogant if they had an ounce of humility to entertain the God they believe doesn’t exist might actually exist and that they will bow before him, if one thinks there is nothing greater than man, which seems pretty arrogant to me.

I think he’s one of those vindictive Christians who giggles with glee at the thought of people burning in hell, and he actually wants us all to go there.
Another misconception, I do not want anyone going there almost as much as God doesn’t want any to go there; and He desires it worlds more than I, I would not give my son to save you, but He did.

@Dutchess_III You said it was an insult to refer to God as a “she” and not a “he.” Those are the physical differences between men and women. I didn’t make it up.
C’mon now, you are going to tell me you do not know the difference in spiritual matters and human anatomy? You think God who created humans are trapped in the narrow band you can’t get past seeing?

Your arguments are entrenching me further and further into my growing dislike of religions,@Hypocrisy_Central. Too many of them are just like you, and not enough are like KnowItAll, and other gentle, intelligent Christians here and on Facebook.
That would be you and your thoughts and the entity where they came from. Sorry, the order God set, is the order He set, I can’t make it follow the edicts. If I tell you as it is and someone else doesn’t or gives you a watered down version and you like them and better and God less, you have free will and so do I.

How are you going to explain that to your maker after you die?
I won’t, I may even get a good ol’ Flutherish Atta boy from Him, because I presented the gospel as He said it not worrying to water it down for itching ears that want a form of godliness with no power behind it.

I have no real fear God will blast me when I meet Him, I know His word and seek more knowledge of Him daily. Can you be sure you won’t get blasted according to His word?

Seek's avatar

How many people, currently, follow the faith because you presented it to them?

Or are you still waiting for God to give the increase on the seeds of arrogance and vitriol and haughtiness you’ve planted?

for the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, long-suffering, gentleness, goodness, meekness, temperance…

***

And he said, That which cometh out of the man, that defileth the man.

For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,

Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness:

All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.

***

Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall.

Dutchess_III's avatar

Ok, regarding gender assignment to God, you said, “C’mon now, you are going to tell me you do not know the difference in spiritual matters and human anatomy? You think God who created humans are trapped in the narrow band you can’t get past seeing?
So, by that statement do you mean men are more spiritual than women? Or what? Would you care to explain?

Brian1946's avatar

The directly converse analogy to the OP’s assertion that my reference to a deity as She, “is as disrespectful as calling Obama a ‘Nigger’” would be, “Referring to the deity as a He, is as disrespectful as calling Michelle Obama a N****r”.

Of course, both assertions are absurd because:

Unlike the OP, I and almost everyone else in this thread have the utmost respect for women, hence my reference to my imaginary being as She.

Unlike my imaginary being, Barack Obama actually exists and is observably male.

My reference was to the apparent sex and NOT the “race” of said deity.

Darth_Algar's avatar

@Hypocrisy_Central “I would not have to see anyone as arrogant if they had an ounce of humility to entertain the God they believe doesn’t exist might actually exist and that they will bow before him”

As you refuse to entertain the notion that any other gods exist and that you will one day bow before them?

Hypocrisy_Central's avatar

@Dutchess_III So, by that statement do you mean men are more spiritual than women? Or what? Would you care to explain?
Seeing you cannot separate the spiritual from the secular, I WILL give it a shot anyway, what the heck, we have time. Men are no more or less spiritual, holy, sinless, etc. than women. What I was saying is that you, not speaking to any others, are trying to define a spiritual being by filtering Him through His creation, which cannot be done, yet you adamantly try to do so anyhow, so you can never get to who or what He is because you will never even contemplate taking the path you need to gain what you are asking.

@Brian1946 Unlike the OP, I and almost everyone else in this thread have the utmost respect for women, hence my reference to my imaginary being as She.
First off, I have no imaginary friend, and if you believe making the accusation that I do because you do not have the tools to connect to God as I have chosen certainly lacks any respect. If I were to take the same stance speaking of gay men, you and most here would certainly say it was disrespectful even though if going of science and biology they were designed for a specific purpose which cannot be denied unless through the filter of denial. But regardless of your respect for women it has nothing to do with the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, so what you are saying rather than pass a question that to you should be irrelevant because it is fiction to you, you want to purposely make a statement to mock god and pad your lurve count.

Unlike my imaginary being, Barack Obama actually exists and is observably male.
So, either you did not comprehend the question, or you did but chose to ignore the context of the question to soapbox your opinion of your disbelief in God; I guess they call that respect around here; go figure……

@Darth_Algar As you refuse to entertain the notion that any other gods exist and that you will one day bow before them?
Because I don’t I am worse off than anyone else who also doesn’t believe in them? I use my experience, for one, I have never had a relationship with them, neither have any of them had a Spirit that spoke to me as God has, I doubt if I sent a million prayers to them they would even answer one if they even had the ability to hear. When you extrapolate the evidence that those gods have the likeness men gave them, usually off something already created or in existence here certainly doesn’t bode well for their sovereignty. As you with your black holes which should be there because your math say so, I know God is there because of spiritual experiences that let me know it is there; my experience I lived through, your black hole you and others still have not even gotten close to.

Dutchess_III's avatar

You love talking in circles, don’t you HC. You are the one insisting on filtering him through a very narrow lens, in that it’s important to you that he be referred to as “he” and not “she.’ If God were real, he / she / it wouldn’t have a gender.

Darth_Algar's avatar

@Hypocrisy_Central

When you understand why you reject all other gods then you will understand why I reject yours.

dappled_leaves's avatar

@Dutchess_III Bingo. The masculine gender is particularly odd, since if made in our image one would expect the being to be female – the creative gender with a full complement of DNA (not 75% of the whole).

Hypocrisy_Central's avatar

@Dutchess_III You love talking in circles, don’t you HC.
If it is the case it is because you and some others keep coming back to the same block I said was not the right block.

You are the one insisting on filtering him through a very narrow lens, in that it’s important to you that he be referred to as “he” and not “she.’
If there is only one way to define Him, how can other ways be used? Is there more than one way to define gravity, electricity, nuclear fission? Just because you refuse to see it other than you wish doesn’t change it any more than if I chose to see gravity as an earth sucking action, it is what it is.

@Darth_Algar When you understand why you reject all other gods then you will understand why I reject yours.
I have said why I have no belief in those other gods, and from what you said before, it is not the reason why you reject God, but knock yourself out, you have free will to believe what you wish. You can even believe more in those other gods, you are free to do that.

LostInParadise's avatar

HC, How do you know God is a man and not a woman? Does he speak in a low resonant voice? Have you seen his genitals? Does he refuse to ask for directions? Or maybe you are just implicitly assuming that men are superior. After all, the Bible treats women as possessions.

Dutchess_III's avatar

I have asked him that so many times, and so many ways @LostInParadise, and he just can’t seem to answer.

Hypocrisy_Central's avatar

@LostInParadise HC, How do you know God is a man and not a woman?
The same way scientist know there is a black hole there they never seen, only the means of detection I use is not mathematics, so you and others cannot understand it any more than if you were to try to explain rocket science to Nero.

Or maybe you are just implicitly assuming that men are superior. After all, the Bible treats women as possessions.
That is a fallback position women take and it alludes to ignorance of God or His plan. Women played many great roles in the Bible but according to God’s plan, man has never gotten anything totally correct, they can’t even treat themselves right, kindly, or fairly. Any mistreatment women suffered for the most part were no different than the suffering men did to other men, which was often worse. Trying to truncate God under human attributes is just silly.

LostInParadise's avatar

Scientists base their knowledge on the extraordinary effects they have The evidence is publicly available. You, on the other hand, base your beliefs on knowledge that only you are privy to. Why should we accept it?

Dutchess_III's avatar

As HC truncates god under human attributes!

Hypocrisy_Central's avatar

@LostInParadise You, on the other hand, base your beliefs on knowledge that only you are privy to.
Let me get you up to speed, it is not something I alone have access to, anyone who truly wishes to have that access can, God has literally spelled it out to them in His word. If you don’t believe it, or believe it will work for you, then it won’t, what you have no faith in will not work for you.

One has to work out their own salvation; no one should be banking theirs on how I show myself approved. My salvation will do zilch for anyone else; I cannot do it for them, nor give them any they do not work out for themselves.

All this is neither here nor there, He is what He is even if you agree with me or not. If you don’t, then keep on and be blessed hopefully in spite of it.

LostInParadise's avatar

How do you know the Bible is the word of God? Where does that knowledge come from?

Hypocrisy_Central's avatar

^ How do you know the Bible is the word of God? Where does that knowledge come from?
You and others seem to keep asking me something you have no capacity or straight up no interest in fathoming can be true. However, I am not going to have Him ask me ”Why did you not explain to them how to reach Me when they ask, giving them the chance?”

Reaching God is like a person with vast superiority and intelligence that happen upon a planet of people. He wants to reach them and he builds a system to broadcast the good news from orbit. The signal is free to anyone who cares to access it. So that they can, the man had instructions that he charged representatives to take to the planet people. Some on the planet who were receptive to understand were given the instructions and told to give them to all who wanted to have them that they may know how to build a receiver to get the transmissions, and to tell them once they learned to spread the knowledge as well. When asked who make the instructions and who sends the signal the best the representatives can say to the people without capacity to understand orbit as they never had anything to reach it and will never, that it came from the sky. Those who could never fathom anyone could be up there trying to communicate, never will build or attempt to build a receiver, but scorn those who do or see them as delusional. Since each receiver is personal only to he who builds it, one who has it cannot share it with another, they have to have faith that building it will open a personal channel for themselves. I know because I dared to believe the instructions where true and put them to the test, not that I could see it by way of others, I did it for myself to find through experience it is there. Those who have not cannot bring themselves to believe there is anything out there and no signal, or if they tried and received nothing because they were trying to manufacture a receiver the way they believed it should be made and not by the instructions, some loose heart, lose hope, have no faith and therefore, never find the true signal that will open their eyes to the truth all around and before them.

If you have no faith there is anything out there to find, how will you even find it less it has to smack you over the head like a 2×4 (and it had to come that way to some of the Brethren but they asked to receive it that way because they could not see it another way)?

LostInParadise's avatar

So it comes down to a matter of faith. Why did you choose to have faith in the Bible rather than any other holy text? Was there some magical lightbulb that went on in your head when you started reading the Bible.

Dutchess_III's avatar

What would I do if this question ever quit coming up on my feed!

@LostInParadise Something he can’t accept is that he was raised in a Christian society, ergo, that’s the religion he chooses to believe is the “right” one, while dismissing all others as being ridiculous superstition.

Hypocrisy_Central's avatar

^^ So it comes down to a matter of faith.
And we come back to full circle of what I said all along. No matter what you choose to believe it often comes down to you have faith in it, if you don’t know matter what is said of it, you will not believe any of it no matter how true.

Why did you choose to have faith in the Bible rather than any other holy text?
From what little I took time to know about other text, or the faiths behind them is that they were either written by one person or a very small band of people in a rather short time span, and/or the lives the authors of those text were not perfect so they cannot write on how to be perfect. Also given the fact if you can point out where they were buried they were not a god, or holy or anything like that but a mere man.

Was there some magical lightbulb that went on in your head when you started reading the Bible.
When I started reading the Bible it was basically as nebulous as a book on quantum physics. There was no light bulb magical or not that gained me enlightenment any more that if I started reading a book by Carl Sagan.

@Dutchess_III What would I do if this question ever quit coming up on my feed!
Hunt down all those do he like me, is she into me, is he cheating on me questions to which there are an inexhaustible supply. ~~

Dutchess_III's avatar

But...but...@HC...the Bible was written by a very small band of people, over time, here and there, and their lives were not perfect. In fact, the Koran is, basically, the Old Testament.

Hypocrisy_Central's avatar

^ Bible was written by a very small band of people, over time, here and there, and their lives were not perfect.
Yes, it was written over time, sometime great expanse of time. The lynch pin to that, is that the scriptures line up even with writers who never met each other. There was no complete bible as we have today so none of these people could sit back and decide to write what would support another writer because copies of the scrolls that made up the Bible were very scarce ad usually in the clutches of the Pharisees and Sadducees. Of course their lives were not perfect, God doesn’t call the qualified but qualifies who He calls. He uses janky tore back people, often the lowest denominator to demonstrate the magnitude of His mercy that unlike men, people of status, wealth, position are not given a pass, lauded over, or treated with higher regard than the lowest of society. If it were just the ”so-called good people” that seem to have access to God, why would the janky, imperfect people even try?

Dutchess_III's avatar

The Koran was written a little at a time, over a great expanse of time. Much of the Koran is vastly similar to the Old Testament (because they come from the same people and cultures that had the same stories) but you reject it, @Hypocrisy_Central. By your argument, you should accept the Koran unquestioningly.

Seek's avatar

Here is a handy interactive list of the contradictions in the Bible.

Hypocrisy_Central's avatar

@Dutchess_III The Koran was written a little at a time, over a great expanse of time.
Not over as great of an expanse, in some case centuries, and not by many people less Muhammad and maybe some influence by Abu Bakr, and a few other maybe, and not all were recognized as prophets even. All those who came after Muhammad either had his writings to go off of, or had some personal contact with him, it was not revealed to them independently of anything.

Much of the Koran is vastly similar to the Old Testament (because they come from the same people and cultures that had the same stories) but you reject it, @Hypocrisy_Central.
Islam and the Koran did not have an existence before, what, the 6 or 7th century? The Bible or the scroll that make it up were around way before that, it is little wonder they gleaned parts of the Bible to give their new religion some legs to counter the more noted faith of Christianity at the time. If the Koran was given to Muhammad by the archangel Gabriel then the Koran should line up with the Bible, for the Bible God says He is immutable, he doesn’t change His nature or His purpose as man does. If the Gabriel gave to Muhammad was from God, then God would be a liar for He would be changed by emotion or his nature and purpose would not be immutable, then all of it would have to be rejected. Since the Koran was the Jonny come lately and not accurate to who God says he was, schlock at worst, a nonfactor at best.

Those are questions you may have the opportunity to ask Him when you meet Him.

@Seek Here is a handy interactive list of the contradictions in the Bible.
If I were a plumber I would not have time reading critique by roofers why plumbing is flawed or doesn’t work. It is the same with that site, I do not know who designed it but they are talking out the side of their neck to say it politely, they cannot even know what contradicts itself when they do not even know the context of the material they are reading.

It is pointless, you will do anything, anyhow to believe God doesn’t exist and you can live however you please, then go do it, you have free will.

To cut to the chase, why don’t you pick out a so-called contradiction and I will summarily debunk it for you.

Dutchess_III's avatar

I’ll start:

Genesis 5:26–27King James Version (KJV)

26 And Methuselah lived after he begat Lamech seven hundred eighty and two years, and begat sons and daughters:

27 And all the days of Methuselah were nine hundred sixty and nine years: and he died.

Seek's avatar

I have exactly zero desire to play apologetics with you any further. I’m not going to be responsible for you getting a mouthful of sand by talking with your head in the ground.

Hypocrisy_Central's avatar

@Dutchess_III _ Genesis 5:26–27King James Version (KJV)_
As usual when scientific pragmatist deal with spiritual things, they tend to filter and see only that which they want to see.

26 And Methuselah lived after he begat Lamech seven hundred eighty and two years, and begat sons and daughters:
27 And all the days of Methuselah were nine hundred sixty and nine years: and he died.
Did you closely read it? The first verse said he lived 782 years AFTER (and that is key) he begat Lamech.
The second verse was speaking if his entire life, from the time he was begat until the Lord took him home; no contradiction whatsoever, but many who do not want to believe God will find it that way.

@Seek I have exactly zero desire to play apologetics with you any further.
Well, join the club, I had zero interest in debunking so many silly questions on why God can’t possibly be or out and out lies on who he is. After you stated that if you discovered him real you would call Him a woman hating douche who sadistically plays and toys with man for His own evil pleasure, you would have left to go help someone without experience to be in a relationship why their relationship is on the rocks or in the toilet, what boots they should wear to a Freddie Mercury tribute concert, how they can be better trainers for the critters they decide to keep as pets, etc.; mystifies me you hung around this long.

I’m not going to be responsible for you getting a mouthful of sand by talking with your head in the ground.
You are no more responsible for me if I get a mouth full of sand than I am of you if you end up a roasted almond throughout eternity. However, I love the position I am in, I would not trade it for Warren Buffet’s cash, it isn’t flameproof.

Seek's avatar

Straight is the way and narrow the path. Seek out your own salvation, with fear and trembling.

Nothing’s guaranteed, even to you, bro. You have the hope of salvation, not the certainty of it.

Hypocrisy_Central's avatar

^ Nothing’s guaranteed, even to you, bro. You have the hope of salvation, not the certainty of it.
I did not say, I am going to according to His words. Even then I worked daily to keep myself in line with His will. Logically, whom do you believe will have a better chance, those who live the way the please, not giving any honor to God, not holding any of His commandments, cheating whoever, sleeping around with whatever, stealing, lying and then some, or those who honor Christ and keep his commandment? Who do you think a parent will reward with tickets to the circus, the kid who never does what you ask and even opposes you or the one who follows house rules, does chores on time and gets good grades? If mere humans will reward good behavior why would God not more abundantly do so?

ragingloli's avatar

If you are a preacher of mercy, do not preach an imaginary but the true mercy. If the mercy is true, you must therefore bear the true, not an imaginary sin. God does not save those who are only imaginary sinners. Be a sinner, and let your sins be strong, but let your trust in Christ be stronger, and rejoice in Christ who is the victor over sin, death, and the world. We will commit sins while we are here, for this life is not a place where justice resides. We, however, says Peter (2. Peter 3:13) are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth where justice will reign. It suffices that through God’s glory we have recognized the Lamb who takes away the sin of the world. No sin can separate us from Him, even if we were to kill or commit adultery thousands of times each day. Do you think such an exalted Lamb paid merely a small price with a meager sacrifice for our sins? Pray hard for you are quite a sinner.

Hypocrisy_Central's avatar

^ It suffices that through God’s glory we have recognized the Lamb who takes away the sin of the world.
How do you recognize the Lamb (Christ) and what sins do you believe He has taken from the world, and better yet, how? And if you do not believe God, what does it profit you to recognize the Lamb?

No sin can separate us from Him, even if we were to kill or commit adultery thousands of times each day.
Curious, just what do you get from that?

Do you think such an exalted Lamb paid merely a small price with a meager sacrifice for our sins?
I know it was inconceivable price, some seem to see it as slight as a happy meal and that they certainly owe Christ nothing in return for His priceless gift.

ragingloli's avatar

- A Letter From Luther to Melanchthon Letter no. 99, 1 August 1521

Dutchess_III's avatar

This is funny…I believe I just landed a job as a receptionist/computer expert at a church…

An “inconceivable” price? Seriously? Christ’s death was a walk in the park compared to the agony he’s put others, including helpless children, through before they finally die.

Rarebear's avatar

I just loved the part of the bible where God commanded people to stone their daughter to death. Very exciting. Had me on the edge of my seat.

Hypocrisy_Central's avatar

@Dutchess_III An “inconceivable” price? Seriously? Christ’s death was a walk in the park compared to the agony he’s put others, including helpless children, through before they finally die.
You do not know God, and you do not know the situation so it seems nothing to you, however I don’t think you would be whipped with a cat-o-nine tails for even your best cronies here, much less give up your child in their place. Let me get this straight, was it lusty, horny men that raped women and children to get a physical nut, or God? Was it greedy men who forced young women in the sex trade and had kids working in dangerous factories so they could enrich their pockets and buy Nike shoes, Maybach Benz, huge McMansions, pleasure yachts, etc. or God? That suffering came because He gave man free will to run things and that is how men did them. If you want God to swoop in and play cop for the children are you willing to have Him play cop in all other sins, smiting those who got out of line like l’il smokies right there on the spot?

Dutchess_III's avatar

That is the suckiest argument of all. When something horrible happens it’s because of man’s free will. When something wonderful happens, it’s because God made it happen.

Or how about when Lot offered up his virgin daughters to some men, to be gang raped, because they men were looking to have butt sex with some angels in his house, @Rarebear?

Seek's avatar

How ‘bout that time that Job was so faithful to God that God straight up TOLD SATAN to drop a house on his whole family, blight his crops, kill his herds, and give him sores and boils because ”isn’t it hilarious how he still worships me anyway?!?

Rarebear's avatar

@Dutchess_III Mmmmm. butt sex.

Dutchess_III's avatar

Bleeeeh!

Hypocrisy_Central's avatar

@Dutchess_III That is the suckiest argument of all. When something horrible happens it’s because of man’s free will. When something wonderful happens, it’s because God made it happen.
That was from your own imagination, I never said that. Sometimes happenstance happens to people just because. Sometimes they did so to others because God prompted them to but to them, they did so to stroke their own ego. All good things come from God, even on those who are at war with Him.

Or how about when Lot offered up his virgin daughters to some men, to be gang raped, because they men were looking to have butt sex with some angels in his house,..]
It was to illustrate his heart for God and His messengers even though he was misguided in the implementation of it. He should have known the angels being spiritual beings have weapons far superior than the feeble carnal weapons of men, he also should have known his daughters would not be touched because them males of that town preferred Polish sausages instead of feminine tacos, (or maybe he did, and that is why he offered them knowing they would be looked at like dirty baby diapers by those men). I guess he could have killed his daughters because his new wife did not like them and threaten to close the coochie off to him, or because he got tired of being a parent. He could have packed them in makeup, feather boas, high heels and hair extensions and paraded them across a stage for a cheap plastic trophy or lunch money all at the tender age of 10. He could have done things like that and for less than a gerbil, certainly not to honor the sovereign Lord of the universe.

@Seek How ‘bout that time that Job was so faithful to God that God straight up TOLD SATAN to drop a house on his whole family, blight his crops, kill his herds, and give him sores and boils because ”isn’t it hilarious how he still worships me anyway?!?”
Right….it is hilarious to even think that. His faithfulness got him returned double for his trouble. I suppose he could have did like his silly wife told him to do and cursed God and died, then we would have been a three-time loser of losing all his stuff, losing getting double back, and losing his soul to spend with one who hates him. But you do not believe it even happened…..so it makes no difference does it?

Seek's avatar

“returned double for his trouble”

His children were killed, and their spouses, and their children.

You cannot “replace” children. The insinuation that what was done to Job is a-OK just because he got NEW kids from his new wife utterly disgusts me.

Hypocrisy_Central's avatar

^ @Seek You cannot “replace” children. The insinuation that what was done to Job is a-OK just because he gotNEW kids from his new wife utterly disgusts me.
Oh, I forgot man is certainly fairer to other men than God… ~~ Sure he got new kids, he still had the same old janky wife; why he wanted to have more children with that unsupporting heifer I don’t know. He will see his original children he will see once he enters Paradise, but again, it is not true but a myth to you so whatever happened to Job might as well be a game of Mindcraft, or D&D. Just bank all your money on man, they are surely way more civil by their demonstration. ~~

Seek's avatar

It’s not the myth that bothers me, it’s the people who believe and justify it.

Hypocrisy_Central's avatar

^ It’s not the myth that bothers me, it’s the people who believe and justify it.
Is that not on you? Do you care as much for those who believe that not bathing on game day will make their team win or not washing their favorite team’s jersey all season, or those who believe a rabbit’s foot will help them win the lotto? I bet you go about your day paying them no mind and are happier for it. Don’t get worked up over it, just disagree with it and go be happy doing what you do how you do it.

Seek's avatar

A person’s dirty laundry harms no one.

People who think killing children is OK because they’re going to heaven anyway are frightening.

Dutchess_III's avatar

That and people who think that without God in our lives we will become immoral, selfish animals capable of inflicting unimaginable pain on others. In other words, if a particular person didn’t have God, that’s what they’d become. That frightens me because deep down, that’s already what they are.

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