This, @Cruiser.

Think of how much greenhouse gases we pour into our atmosphere. It would be impossible for that NOT to change things.

Regardless, we still have to find different sources of energy, because fossil fuels will run out.

Climate Change is a global issue, not a regional one. And when the effects are so self evident, such as the tundra melting and extreme glacial retreat, and winter Arctic temperatures 50 degrees F above normal, one can tell that things have changed.

I don’t know where this blogger lives, but it was a very warm summer in California. There has been very little of the normal fog from the Pacific in the Bay Area the last two years.

@Cruiser Your link leads to a blog by guy called Tony Heller who has a degree in Geology and who for reasons best known to himself spends a great deal of his time arguing that man made global warming is a fraud. It is a free country and he can say what he likes but if you don’t know who to believe on the Internet why believe this random guy?

So, I take it the person in your link, @Cruiser, feels global climate change is some sort of government conspiracy? To what end?

I’m not writing anything here so you can dismiss and make fun of anything I say. This question makes me suspicious of your voracity. I am equally sure that anything I write will have no bearing on what you believe because you constantly seek out sources that only confirm your bias.

My evidence based position is that Global Warming is real and that humans are at the very least partly responsible for it.

If I can wave my hands about and get your attention I will point out that it is scientists who tell of the dangers of global warming rather than any government. The warnings unfortunately are based on measurement and science and should be taken seriously.

It strikes me as profoundly disturbing that something as unambiguously established as climate change should be considered as something that one has “opinions” about. This is yet further evidence that we’re now living in a world where people feel free to choose their own reality.

yet, @flutherother , @Cruiser is happy to quote a website that claims the whole science is false because of an adjustment that had to be made some time last year due to readings. Reports were made early in the year. Then, they data had to be looked at because there was an irregularity in it, so the scientists corrected the information in the report. The Anti-Climate folks took this as ‘oh, see! They are cheating!’ Me and my colleagues were stunned at the conclusion and are continually sickened at seeing the perpetuation of this.

My “informed” (quotes unnecessary) opinion on climate change/global warming has been cultivated by the reading of many books on that subject. Have you ever read a book, @Cruiser?

@Dutchess_III What little time I have spent reading about climate change the story that works for me the most is that our wanton deforestation of the rain forests is what is a driving force in the changes we are seeing if they indeed are real. Trees process CO2 and we need more trees not less. Seems like an easy fix to me.

@Cruiser you aren’t taking into effect the amount of CO2 that has been pumped into the atmosphere in regards to the burning of fossil fuels. You understand algebra? Well, then there is another side to the equation. It’s been dumped in the tonnes.

@zenvelo The global issue is what bothers me the most. We got to pollute our butts off for most of the industrial revolution and what helped our country to grow and become as powerful as we are. China is producing coal generating stations at record pace. Other developing countries need to industrialize to catch up to our pace and that inevitably means more pollution. I don’t think denying Climate Change is helpful on any level and perhaps Trump will watch DeCaprio’s documentary like he promised him….Before the Flood I hear it is supposed to be a good eye opener I will try to watch soon. It’s free on the web.

All I know is that, every year, there has been less and less snow in my country, and summers are hotter and hotter. This did not happen before. I remember very cold winters. There are no more of those.

Sumthin’s goin’ on. and I don’t like that

All I know is that it snowed in Hawaii recently but it’s 80 degrees in Texas today (12/28) so I’m totally confused by the entire thing. We’re smart people; we should know the truth and be able to converse on it intelligently and respectfully.
I’m more upset by sinkholes.

It’s a combination of a lot of factors, @Cruiser, including deforestation. But bringing back the trees won’t be enough. We have to find alternate energy forms, whether they are responsible for climate change or not.

@cazzie Yes I understand this. Why I said trees are so important…“The first study to look at all the world’s forests together found that established forests, from boreal forests in the north to tropical rainforests in the south, absorb 8.8 billion tonnes of carbon dioxide every year. ”

@Aster Yes, that confused a lot of people, which is why they replaced “Global Warming” with “Climate Change.”
It can cause floods and drought on different parts of the earth at the same time.

If you notice it, it’s weather, if it is a trend in the data collected over several decades, it’s data! PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE, don’t use your personal observations on weather around you as proof. It is not helpful.

Right ^^^^.

@cazzie you mean climate, not data, right?

Sinkholes have more to do with the acidification and lowering of fresh water tables and that is, absolutely a sign of changing climate.

@Aster It also snowed in the Sahara Desert last week. That was unexpected to see.

@AnonymousAccount8 I mean data and not weather.

Look, if any of you really want a chance to talk and ask questions, I can, quite seriously, organise a round table talk. I’ve often mentioned my science group here, but, in actual fact, in does include some people of standing. I’m not bragging, I’m just saying. If you want to have an AMA, it can be arranged. I really appreciate the real interest.

@cazzie does your work concern climate change?

And I would invite any others to participate. Happy to give a location to chat and we can all share.

@AnonymousAccount8 I am a child care worker as a job, but I’m also a science writer, so I am in contact with many sources.

@cazzie “don’t use your personal observations on weather around you as proof. It is not helpful.” Are you suggesting we should simply ignore now and dismiss the Kiribiti islanders observations that their islands are “sinking”?

the sinking of the islands has been an observation over decades, but I know you know that, but are trying to dismiss my comment. Screw you.

You forget, I lived in the Pacific for 15 years. I know well the issues that were observed even back then.

@cazzie Serious question…I am under the understanding that sinkholes are the result of pumping water out of the water tables especially in the case of Florida sink holes.

Actually @cazzie…the science behind these sinking Islands is not just rising water levels, scientists are recording higher wave energy over the years and is actually eroding the island and coastal areas. A double whammy if you will.

Higher wave energy? Oh, please explain. And explain how this has nothing to do with higher sea levels.

@cazzie Explanation

You can’t just link to bogus information. This is one set of data on one small set of islands. Not proof.

@cazzie Since when is Popular Science “bogus” information. You apparently just don’t like other people beside you to be right.

WOW….. NO, this was ONE DATA SET on one small set of islands by ONE scientist? WTF? You really are only after the data, how ever small, that supports your idea. That is desperate.

Climate Change is information taken GLOBALLY. Over a long period of time. If you can’t get your brain around those parameters, there is nothing I can do to help you understand, so I am not going to waste my time.

Ms. Jun is must be a ~~ scientist, she wrote another article This VR Headset Folds To Fit In Your Pocket for Popular Science.

Right. Like, it was almost 64 degrees F on Christmas Day. Hell, it’s close to 60 today. I can’t remember it ever being this warm…but my memory is fallible. So I can’t point at those temps as my “proof” of anything. It has to be tied in with global data.

Read the article it was a study of 33 of the Solomon Islands. The study did document the disappearance of 5 islands but they also are observing increasing rates of shoreline erosion on all the Islands and other coastal areas __over a 68 year period.__ That IMO is a real study of real impact of climate change/rising oceans and increased wave energy. You claim to be surround by real scientists and if you really are then you should be aware that REAL scientists do not cherry pick their data to make a point or refute a point.

As I first stated, I only expected my posts here to be twisted and dismissed in a childish way. If anyone really wants to discuss this issue in a format appropriate for adult conversation, I urge you to take contact with me and I can organise a science group to take your questions.

@Cruiser I thought you dismissed climate change as a fallacy? But you’re arguing for it now….

@Dutchess_III It was very warn Xmas weekend here too. Upper 50’s and I can recall very vividly when on Jan 6 1982 sitting on the bumper of my car having a beer with a college buddy in 66 degree weather. I didn’t personally dismiss it just posted that article as a conversation starter. Broke the ice with it if you will XD

Ocean currents change and levels rising are a direct result, but you can’t take one small portion and say it proves the point. It is part of it, but it is not, in as of itself proof. He is trying to disprove by saying we are saying immediate problems are from climate change. It’s childish.

As I said, “My memory is fallible.” Everyone’s memory is. That’s why you can’t just say, “Oh, it was so warm,” and present that as some kind of proof.

@cazzie Too many to choose from so take your pick Let me know if you read any good ones.

@Dutchess_III We don’t base science evidence on your memory…. I think that is a good thing. We look at decades of data collection.

@Cruiser Microbiome all you like, but the global data still backs me up.

I should call in my big dogs….... I’m getting annoyed and pissed.

Oh,,... nope… they won’t be driven by a shit storm on a petty sad site. If any of you want to actually join us for a REAL conversation…. PM me and I will set it up.

@cazzie your asinine attitude is precisely why climate change debate is so tedious.

People like you find it ‘tedious’ because you lack the ability to understand it.

Science isn’t difficult because it wants to be.

these issues are difficult because there are very complex issues involved. Dismissing the problem is a short cut out of understanding the problem

@Dutchess_III I missed your earlier question climate change means big money to big business which translates into big campaign donations. As they say….Follow the money Another baseless link—don’t read it

I can assure you, Scientists studying climate change are NOT getting wealthy or even making a very good way of fattening their pension. It is a myth.

Now, I will address your wording saying that my ‘attitude’ is ‘asinine’. Oh, How I will argue you this in an arena that is worthy. I will be happy and I will bring back up.

@cazzie I did say Big business was getting fatter off of climate change not Scientists.

So, why aren’t you part of that Big Business and why would you complain?

I think big businesses, like gas and oil, would rather wipe climate change due to green house emissions, off the table. They have a stake in denying it.

((Big business is big oil and coal and natural gas….. and has nothing to do with profit of the work being done to identify issues of climate change…. of course….)))

*smiles at Dutchess

The fact that this is now a thing
http://www.crystalcruises.com/northwest-passage-cruise

@Rarebear what?

Thanks for all the comments and your input especially @cazzie gotta run and make dinner. Again @cazzie it would be helpful if you read the links….it talks about fortune 500 companies that will benefit from the Paris talks that impose regulations on their foreign competitors that will level the playing field enabling these BIG companies to reap more profits. Follow the money to who will benefit from climate change regulations. Certainly not my small business.

Oh, the ability to sail around the polar circle….. even at the top of winter.

I don’t care about the financial benefits. I’m more concerned about the preservation of an environment that is conducive to the future of humans continuing on the earth.

I have friends who circumnavigated the arctic. They were great explorers, but it was also to show that the ice was melting and that the circumnavigation was possible.

That it is real, that it is now unavoidable, that it may not be entirely man caused. I am glad I have no children to inherit this mess.
@cazzie It might be OK if man could continue to exist on the planet despite the superbugs, deteriorating environmental conditions, and the 14:1 overabundance of humans.

OMG, there’s soooo much scientific proof that it’s happening, why isn’t this dangerous debate over?!

Oh—I know—Donald Trump got elected.

@Cruiser, the article you linked cites a source, a document that contains such patently false and disprovable claims as “the hiatus in global warming since 1998.” The warmth of 2015 largely ended any remaining scientific credibility of claims that the supposed ‘hiatus’ since 1998 had any significance for the long-term warming trend.

I for one do not dispute man has royally A$$ f#cked our environment. I grew up and lived in the age when rivers caught on fire. My cartoons as a kid were interwoven with the Crying Indian PSA. We have come a long way domestically but there is a lot of work left to be done. I make an adhesive that is use to adhere farm raised corals to dead and dying coral reefs in the ocean in an effort to revitalize our dying reefs we really rely on. I love the ocean and this project is near and dear to me. I also started an annual river cleanup project of our local river 7 years ago with the Scouts that is tied into the Coast Guard who catalogues the items we find in our river up stream of the eventual discharge into the Mississippi and ultimately the Gulf of Mexico. There is a lot we all can do on a daily basis. Pointing fingers and waving our hands accomplishes nothing. Rolling up our sleeves does.

I hope you can save the world l @Cruiser, because you are the only one with answers, IN YOUR MIND.

@Tropical_Willie How has life left you so abandoned that you would assign you future to me?? This suggests to me our current President has abandoned you… Our President elect seems to have the answers to your future outcome in their mind…heavy load to carry…but I will look out for my Jellies back including you sir!

Because you assume you are the only one that KNOWS the answer, but I repeat myself.

@Tropical_Willie Please enlighten me to how you conceptualization of both of our futures in real terms that would be better with anyone but Trump as our President? Please share YOUR answer..

Let me see if I understand. @Cruiser asks a question, he obviously is willing to listen to other points of view, even though we know he seriously questions all the hoopla about climate change, and instead of people simply trying to provide information to him and be patient, and appreciative he is asking, people doubt his sincerity, are dismissive, and condescending. That’s a good way to inform and change someone’s mind.

Jesus. Not the fluther I used to know. It’s so disappointing.

It’s obviously a very political issue. I mean, it’s weird to me that an issue like this is almost completely divided by party lines. Remember Sarah Palin? She took climate change very seriously before she didn’t. Before her rise to celebrity on the national scene. She previously accused Washington of not taking global warming seriously enough. Here’s an article I found regarding Palin if you’re interested.

@Cruiser Why does it matter if it’s true or not? Isn’t it better not to cause pollution? Isn’t it better to use clean energy? Wouldn’t you like to have feasibly priced solar energy for your home or business where you could be independent of the grid, so you don’t have to pay the utility companies every month? Maybe solar isn’t as practical for your neck of the woods, but it certainly can work for a large portion of the US. Be suspicious of government a big business who make all sorts of money from us being energy dependent. Be suspicious of anything that has become a dividing political issue.

Your point about the forrests is valid in my opinion, both sides of the equation count. The CO2 we produce and the ability of the planet to convert it back to oxygen.

Other jellies already gave you links and said why they believe climate change is at least partially man made. I’m just here to say maybe we as a country can look at the entire topic differently and agree on a lot of things that are part of this issue.

@JLeslie I have to lay bare that as much as I believe we as humans are affecting our environment…to me, whether or not is man made or politically fabricated irks me the most that big business and politics have created this environment we now as helpless players find ourselves debating this issue. I don’t own a coal fire electrical plant but I do use the internet, lots of electricity especially at my work….I eschew plastic waterbottles…not sure what more I can do as I feel abandoned by the political debates over fracking, Keystone, Iran, Israel and other bend over and grab your ankles topics you and I have little to no control over if all we do is not vote every 4 years and bitch about the results. Mods…just delete this question again if you feel it is too much for the sensitive Jellies here to comprehend…

@Cruiser I agree politics and big business make all these sorts of things confusing and difficult to sort through. It has to do with integrity, the lack of it in the country now. Too selfish, too greedy, it’s all gone too far.

Gee @JLeslie the one thing I appreciate the most about you is your eternal hope for the better…for all of us. You are a fighter for sure. P’rolly why I married a Jewish woman.

I think you are all overlooking the real burning issue here & that is, who is going to manufacture an effective suncream for penguins, not to mention sunglasses that stay on their slippy awkward shaped heads.

^^@janbb is looking into those things already. Could be really hot businesses. You might tell your stockbroker to buy some stock.

I believe in two things. 1) Like everything in nature, nature has it limits. Humans have become the scourge of the earth. We are like roaches in a tiny apartment shitting all over it. Eventually, the air will be foul. Everything in a nature is action and reaction. The planet will react to our extreme waste, and over killing of wild life and trees and the pollution we put into the air. We have upset natures eco system.

2.) The planet also has it’s own natural cycle. It has been changing for billions of years. So not all the blame goes to man kind but I’m sure we are probably escalating it.

Think of the planet like our bodies. We grow and change and get old and die. Eventually our planet will die. Mankind had the choice of being a helpful species. Instead of feeding it a stream of healthy food we chose to feed it crap by the trillions everyday, but somehow, it shouldn’t effect our environment.

I think climate change is overwhelmingly clearly true and dangerous. You don’t need to rely on today’s crazy information swirls since it has been an issue on the minds of serious environmental scientists, and even in nature documentaries for the general public, for over 50 years. The latest political/industrial spins are crazy bullshit from people with agendas for political power or profit, at the possible expense of global catastrophes.

For anyone who hasn’t already drunk the Kool Aid on either side of the debate, there is a terrific blog post I found about how to tell who’s lying to you.

Fascinating stuff.

For the record: Climate is changing. It is always changing on this planet. I think that life itself depends on that, in fact. (I don’t mean seasonal changes and I don’t mean weather; I think that it is probably vital to the continued existence and evolution of life on the planet that climate should change.) Regardless of my unfounded belief in the necessity of climate change, however, the fossil, ice, archaeological and sediment records are unanimous in demonstrating that “climate has always been cyclical and changing on Earth”. So it’s going to change regardless of what mankind does or does not do.

The real question being asked, I think, is “Will mankind’s effects on climate cause unbalanced movement in some way?” I don’t think we have that capability – yet. While it is irrefutable that mankind has changed micro-climates with every new outdoor construction project, I think the changes we make on a global scale are immeasurably small. Present, but insignificant in terms of the planet’s (and the Sun’s) natural cyclical effects.

@CWOTUS Of course there have been climate changes before. Why do you think manmade climate change are immeasurably small?

@CWOTUS That’s a little like saying “Cigarette smoking can lead to lung cancer but I believe the increased risk is immeasurably small.” The evidence says otherwise.

@CWOTUS You don’t think we have that capability? All 7.5 billion + of us? And the rain forests and other jungle/plant growth is still being destroyed, not replaced, – by man? Al Gore has a movie you REALLY need to watch!

I’m against it.

OK… I’m sitting next to a well known climate scientist. He says, ‘Ask away’. We can take it into chat if anyone wants.

@cazzie Ask him what sources of information on climate change he deems reliable…in the peer reviewed category we can go read up on this subject. Preferably with POV’s from both sides of the debate. With all the fake news today, junk science and rumors of fudged data…I am having a difficult time sifting through all the chaff. I’d also like to find a forum where I could have a discussion without someone screaming R U OUT OF YOUR F’N MIND!!

“In terms of science, there really isn’t a debate, from the scientist’s side, in the terms you are thinking. What is under debate is the level of change and the details of certain regions, or details of the small climate areas will change. There is no debate that there is change caused by human consumption of fossil fuels.” He is looking up on his computer now for some good peer reviewed papers and sources he can give you.

And, also, he is speaking and I’m typing, so it may sound a bit weird.

OK. we found a working paper for policy makers that has had perhaps hundreds of scientists working in different fields. https://www.ipcc.ch/report/ar5/wg1/

Sorry,... we realise this paper is huge but you asked for a convincing and reliable view of why climate change is real. This is one small scientific paper. This is one of perhaps 4 working group papers that are offered up. There is a paper called the synthesis group that summaries everything that we can send you the link to.

Also,.... we talked about saving your company money in the past in regards to energy consumption…. THIS is the guy who made the suggestions. He’s an all-rounder.

Appreciate the link and looks chock full of indepth data and analysis @cazzie Having a hard time opening the larger chapters here…going to try my better puter at home.

If you have any immediate questions, feel free, because we are here now.

Is 2016 going to be the warmest year on record?

I’m saying this: He’s a scientist, not a magic 8 ball. (damn it, Jim, I’m a doctor, not a plastic prognosticating toy!)

Empirical data will tell.

Again, if you notice it, it is weather. If it is climate change, it is data collected over decades. Less sexy, but get used to not sexy. Get used to facts and pertinence. Get used to pragmatic dogma and slaps with a cold wet cloth. (this is all me, not my Scientist friend) He is saying that the data he is currently looking up is backing up that the empirical data will show that the temperatures were highest at 2016, or at least for the first half that has been looked at from which the article he was currently looking at.

Eewww.. that was messy….. It’s because of the grapes speaking, sorry…. But I’m sure you get my meaning.

OK, thanks. At the moment 2015 is the warmest year and 2014 the next warmest. I wondered if 2016 would continue this trend. It looks like it might well do but I appreciate you need to look at the bigger picture over the longer term but still….

If you want to extrapolate from the trend, then, yes, it looks like 2016 will be the warmest again… but the reported data is only in for the first 6 months….