I have never paid extra for the first class cabin on the train.

A long time ago @Caravanfan and I gave the guy a higher than average tip for a Vegas show, and the guy put us front and center.

@ragingloli I have not either. However, that was not the question.

@RocketGuy Thanks for your honesty. Do you see a difference in principle between what you guys did and somebody offering $25K for an early vaccine shot?

It is a substitute, because I would never voluntarily set foot into your country, let alone that seedy gambling den.

@crazyguy Your premise is based on false equivalence.

Paying extra fora better seat does not deprive someone else from seeing the show at the same time.

Paying to jump the line for a vaccination delays someone else who is more vulnerable to DYING.from getting vaccinated when they should.

Which hotel/venue?
Who would the bribe go to? Doncha think anyone accepting a bribe would be immediately arrested? What person, smart enough and sophisticated enough to be trained to give a vaccination, would be stupid enough to accept a bribe? Granted, it does take all kinds…

Michael Sandel does a good job of pointing out the wrongheadedness of your thinking.

I’d take $20 not to go to a show in Las Vegas.

Are we comparing a Las Vegas Show to jumping the line for a vaccine? WTH?

@JLeslie We are comparing using money to score a better seat at a Las Vegas show to using money to get the vaccine sooner. If you see no similarity between the two, excuse me, because I sure do.

@crazyguy In America we generally find things like that immoral, unethical, and sometimes they are illegal. Like paying for a kidney—illegal.

@RocketGuy Which show was that? I remember doing it, I just don’t remember the show.

Vaccines should be given so as to do the best job of preventing people from getting the virus and to save as many lives as possible. The best way to do this is to first vaccinate health care workers so that they can provide care to others. After health care workers, the vaccine should be given to those most vulnerable. Giving the vaccine to the highest bidder would end up costing lives.

So let me get this straight… your comparing US healthcare with a floor show in Vagas? Which is stupid.

Everyone knows that vagas casinos are better managed and better organised and much fairer than any US healthcare establishment

@Lightlyseared @JLeslie As made clear (I thought!) in my response to @JLeslie, I am not comparing a floorshow to US healthcare. What I am comparing is “using money to score a better seat at a Las Vegas show to using money to get the vaccine sooner”.

Finding such practices “immoral, unethical” is not limited to America. I have been in many countries where the practice is known to be unethical, but it happens anyway.

I do not condone it; but I do expect reality. The only way to stop it (even this will not stop it completely) is to make the punishment much stiffer than it is currently. However, you have to be careful about “cruel and unusual punishment”.

Illegal things happen of course. We had a Q asking if it surprises jellies that people are trying to jump the line with money and I think everyone answered it’s no surprise.

What’s more likely to happen is friends of people will get it more easily, but hopefully still won’t be jumping the line. I already know of one story that is from a reliable source that a vial with 3 doses left would expire the next day so the pharmacist called up friends to see if he could find people who wanted the shot. He did, they were all over 75 from what I understand. I don’t know if he was a hospital pharmacist or what. It wasn’t in Florida.

We see politicians and friends of politicians getting it, some people are really angry about it, some people feel they serve to reassure the population that it’s safe and encourage people to get it.

@LostInParadise So you would rather give the vaccine to some old codger like myself who is at risk of dying if I were to catch COVID-19, but will never catch it than to somebody who risks getting it every day because s/he is classified as an essential worker?

@janbb Generally I agree with you. However, I have seen some outstanding shows in Vegas. It helps my appreciation if I don’t have to shell out the $100 or so for a seat!

@crazyguy , I should have included essential workers along with health care providers in the first group to be given the vaccine. I am glad to see that you understand that paying for the vaccine is unethical and different from buying a ticket for an entertainment event.

@LostInParadise First, I want to thank you for turning me on to Michael Sandel – I watched the one TED talk that you linked to, but I’ll be watching his other talks as well. Just by the way, I don’t think for a minute that anything I believe in, or have expressed here, is different from what Michael Sandel is saying. In fact, I think, the example he used of a prisoner in Santa Barbara being able to upgrade his prison cell for $82 per night sounds wrong to me more than somebody donating $25,000 to a hospital for expediting his/her vaccine.

You say that you are “glad to see that you (I) understand that paying for the vaccine is unethical and different from buying a ticket for an entertainment event.”. I am not sure how you deduced that from my response to you.

I think that the federal government should lay out their understanding of the priorities; then each state, and each county should have the freedom to implement the vaccination program as they see fit. If a particular locality chooses to raise some charitable donations from their allocation of the vaccine, why should somebody in a different locality object?

@crazyguy , This is what you said at the end of your post a few back. You said you do not condone the practice and suggested stiffer sentences for those involved. How quickly you change your mind! It is hard to keep up.

I do not condone it; but I do expect reality. The only way to stop it (even this will not stop it completely) is to make the punishment much stiffer than it is currently. However, you have to be careful about “cruel and unusual punishment”.

@LostInParadise Sorry, I thought you were referring to my latest post.

However, rereading my earlier post leads to the following conclusions:

1. The “it” I do not condone is more general than you are making it out to be.
2. True I do not condone anybody getting special favors at somebody else’s expense, including, but not limited to an excessive tip for a better seat.
3. A bribe, by its nature, cannot be transparent. However, it is possible to auction off scarce commodities to see what the ‘market’ will bear. For instance the price of an upgraded prison cell.
4. Bribery can possibly be stopped by stiffer sentences. In my personal experience, raising the punishment usually results only in raising the necessary bribe.

Are you saying that the transparency of a payment is the distinguishing factor? Is it okay to sell body parts for implants? There is no bribery involved. Is it okay to pay someone to wait in line for you? No bribery involved there either. There are companies that will do that for you. Michael Sandel condemns these practices as well as paying for a better jail cell. Selling vaccinations is not a bribe either, just charging what the market will bear.

@Caravanfan – it was Follies Bergere: https://www.tripadvisor.com/Attraction_Review-g45963-d209820-Reviews-Folies_Bergere-Las_Vegas_Nevada.html

The Maître d’ led us into the barely filled room, we slipped him some $$, and he seated us well. He could have put us out in the boonies if he had wanted to fill the room efficiently.

@crazyguy is making a false equivalence here because we had purchased tix for that particular show, so everyone with such tix was guaranteed a seat to see the same show at the same time. An equivalence for vaccinations would be that 50 vaccinations were scheduled for a particular day. Rich person received a ticket for #50, but paid extra so became #1. The other 49 people would still get their vaccine the same day. #49 would still get vaccinated.

@LostInParadise There is, in my opinion, a clear distinction between what may be acceptable to society and what is definitely not acceptable. However, it is impossible to poll even a representative sample on each situation that may arise.

I recall as if it were yesterday a discussion I had with a guy some 40 years ago. This was an elderly gentleman (at least 55), I was in my 20s. We got to talking about the Post Office and how he thought it should be privatized. I told him that may lead to different postage rates depending on airline connections. I’ll never forget his answer: “SO WHAT?” In my younger days I did not have an answer. Not sure if I have one now, either.

@RocketGuy I do not think anybody in his/her right mind would pay too much for just jumping the line for the same day. Jumping by a month, may be. Getting vaccinated in time for a grand child’s birth? Definitely.

@RocketGuy Oh yeah! That was a fun show.

@crazyguy just because you think you’re not comparing the US healthcare system with a Vegas floor show does not change the fact that you did.

@Lightlyseared Come again, you lost me. But then you probably think that Trump asked you to swallow disinfectant!

@crazyguy – Trump mentioned injecting it, not swallowing it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RxDKW75ueIU

@RocketGuy I believe he asked a question, he did not recommend it.