I don’t know but it’s oddly comforting to hear that wacky conspiracy theories are not just an United States’ cottage industry.

If this were a chinese project (which I completely doubt) then two immediate observations come to mind:

1) what was the motivation behind it? What do they gain from it long term and short term? If the calculation was some sort of power over the West, it has failed, because even after the deaths, the West is turning about to be stronger and more resilient than anyone expected.

2) If it was a goal to project Chinese technological and biochemical skill, it has failed on that as well. For one thing, a well-run scientific institution wouldn’t let viruses escape in the wild, which would suggest that the so-called Chinese lab, if it exists, has poor controls and is not a good member of the scientific community.

If the goal was to highlight Chinese vaccination manufacturing, that too fails, because theirs is far poorer than Moderna or Pfizer, or even J&J’s. So that is also a black eye for the Chinese.

Summary: the conspiracy theories have so many holes in them that they can’t be true.

I don’t think it was a bio weapon purposely released. I guess maybe it’s possible it somehow escaped a lab. Our former director of the CDC, who is a virologist, believes it most likely was a bioengineered virus. I saw an American scientist who has worked directly with the lab in question and he says there is no way it was purposely developed to harm people or released on purpose. He trusts the Chinese scientists who work there.

@cookieman I feel the opposite. I recently saw an interview with QAnon people in Japan, and I already knew they were in parts of Europe. I find that scary not comforting.

Personally, I believe that it was naturally occurring, but this article crossed my sightline today: https://thebulletin.org/2021/05/the-origin-of-covid-did-people-or-nature-open-pandoras-box-at-wuhan/
From this post on Metafilter: https://www.metafilter.com/191385/The-origin-of-COVID

Just thought you all might find it an interesting take on the subject.

The comments on this Metafilter post are quite telling, especially the one about the article’s author.

I haven’t ruled out that possibility.

It was going to be a bio weapon but it got out of the lab in China by accident.

@JLeslie “Our former director of the CDC, who is a virologist, believes it most likely was a bioengineered virus.”

I assume you mean disgraced virologist Robert Redfield, who faked AIDS data and was a political appointee Trump scraped from the bottom of the barrel after his previous appointee resigned due to conflicts of interest?

@canidmajor “The comments on this Metafilter post are quite telling, especially the one about the article’s author.”

For those who don’t want to click through: the author of the article is Nicholas Wade, an admitted race essentialist (which is a fancy euphemism for “racist”) who believes that Asian people are genetically inferior and predisposed to conformity and submissiveness.

The people in the US who believe it is a Chinese bioweapon are the same kind of people who believe Donald Trump is still president and white people are an oppressed minority.

They are dangerous lunatics with no grasp of reality.

@Irukandji I’m happy to discredit him. Thanks for the additional information.

It doesn’t make sense to me that the Chinese would release a weapon like this, so I never thought it was purposeful. I trust the scientists who work together more than the government itself.

Epoch Times has a media stronghold in the Vietnamese community here in the US. They are super pro-Trump and anti-Chinese. :/

@raum Epoch Times is the media arm of the Falun Gong, a wacko cult originating with Li Hongzi, the cult leader, who currently lives on a wealthy compound in New York state. The entertainment arm of the organization is that group Shen Yun.

Yup. Fully aware of how whackadoodle Epoch Times is.

@raum My daughter’s friend got them tickets to see a Shen Yun performance without asking me. I found out and said to my daughter, “Do you realize who these people are?” She was appalled but went to the performance anyway because the tickets were bought. She won’t go again, though.

Actually, it’s kind of a shame. I like Chinese music, dance, and acrobats and I’d totally go if it wasn’t part of Falun Gong.

Yeah, it’s basically propaganda in the form of dance.

Have to admit I laughed when I heard of a friend who didn’t know and went to the show and was like “Wait a minute….”

The adherents of Orange Julius Caesar simultaneously believe that Covid is a nonexistent virus, and was developed by anyone who appears to be Asian.

I got a free and unrequested copy of the Epox Times through my mail slot yesterday.
I had to tear it in half so that it would fit in my recycle bag.

I’m in the UK and don’t know anyone who believes that theory. There is no scientific support for it. Logically, why would any country develop a bio weapon that is going to affect them as much as “the enemy”.

I have felt from the beginning that this was not a naturally developed virus. I came to this through a series of questionable data points that made me believe it was man-made. However, I have never thought this was released on purpose. I suspect it was an “oops”. I also believe that our government knew about this virus before the oops.

@seawulf575 Have you gotten your vaccine yet?

@Caravanfan We had this discussion on a different thread. Not sure if you were part of that conversation. But no, I have not. I had the virus a couple months ago so I don’t see the point right now. Even the CDC agrees with that.

@seawulf575 I’ve seen a few cases of Covid in patients who had Covid previously. So my fluther doctor opinion is that you should get the vaccine. And you are incorrect about the CDC. The only indication to wait is 90 days after you received either plasma or monoclonal antibodies (neither of which work for treatment, by the way)

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/faq.html

From the CDC website:
Yes, you should be vaccinated regardless of whether you already had COVID-19. That’s because experts do not yet know how long you are protected from getting sick again after recovering from COVID-19. Even if you have already recovered from COVID-19, it is possible—although rare—that you could be infected with the virus that causes COVID-19 again. Learn more about why getting vaccinated is a safer way to build protection than getting infected.

If you were treated for COVID-19 with monoclonal antibodies or convalescent plasma, you should wait 90 days before getting a COVID-19 vaccine. Talk to your doctor if you are unsure what treatments you received or if you have more questions about getting a COVID-19 vaccine.

Experts are still learning more about how long vaccines protect against COVID-19 in real-world conditions. CDC will keep the public informed as new evidence becomes available.

A lot of conservative types in the U.S. believe that. But I know it was created in a test tube in secret lab, by a certain American political party to kill Democrats. No, just kidding. Or, am I? If conservatives can rant and be nutzoid, so can I. I won’t even go into how Monica Lewinsky was a Republican crisis actor, taxed with making Bill Clinton look bad. : )

@Nomore_lockout the only party are the Democrats are trying to destroy the Republican party.

@KRD The Republicans are destroying themselves.

They have become the Trump Party with Tangerine make-up. Don’t disagree with them they will send the Proud Boys and Oath Keeper to burn your house and kill everyone as the try to escape the fire (old KKK treatment).

@raum I’m so sad that there are actually non-US people who support Trump :(

@Brian1946 You saved the environment :D

@KRD Bull crap the republicans are plotting against Biden. And the Hillary emails never existed. Republicans hacked her computer.

@Mimishu1995

Thanks. :-)

I did my micro part to minimize landfill expansion, and my nano part to offset whatever deforestation is caused by E Times paper consumption.

@Brian1946 Epox.
Ha! That’s pretty apt.

@Mimishu1995 It’s even more sad when you’re related to some of them. :(

@Caravanfan isn’t it also true that people that have been vaccinated have gotten Covid? Not much difference in my mind.

It’s interesting to me that the same people who think it’s a bioweapon also think that we shouldn’t wear masks or get a vaccine. So…it’s not a weapon then? Seems to me that you’d want to protect yourself from a bioweapon…

@Demosthenes If masks actually worked, or if the vaccine was something particularly different than natural immunities, I might agree with you. As to whether it is a bioweapon or not, I will tell you I believe it was developed as such, but not that it was released as such.

@seawulf575 No, that’s not true at all.

@Caravanfan must be a better idea to wear a tinfoil hat than wear aq mask.

@Caravanfan I assume you are responding to my comment that vaccinated people have gotten covid. I think this and this and this and dozens of other reports I have seen would say it is true. Might want to research that a bit.

@seawulf575 Of course some people, a very small percentage, of people have gotten covid. No vaccine is 100% effective. For a 95% efficacy vaccine if you vaccinate 100,000 people 50 may get infected. But 50 people is a lot fewer than 100,000

Look, all I care about is your continued health and existence. I don’t want you getting sick. Currently we are taking care of a patient who refused vaccine and we are struggling to keep him off a ventilator. I don’t want that to be you because I care about you.

I’m very aware that there are Covid deniers along with the bio weapon theorists. Now I’m wonder if they are paranoid. The conspiracy theorists in my place just go on spreading their theories to anyone who would listen, then move on with their day as if they didn’t say anything at all. Makes me wonder what’s the point of knowing the “truth” at all.

@Caravanfan But your argument isn’t honest. Isn’t it also true that a small percentage of people that got covid got it again? And since the vaccines haven’t been around all that long, isn’t it also true that if the time frames were the same, the incidence of getting sick again would be about the same?
But let me ask you, as a medical professional: the mRNA genetic therapeutics. They have been around quite a while if I’m not mistaken. Have there ever been animal tests performed? And if so, what were the results on those? My understanding is that all previous animal testing showed a large percentage of adverse reactions, some of which were deadly and some of which took time to arise. So what makes these vaccines different?

@Mimishu1995 Knowing the truth is important but believing and acting on the truth is even more important. Imagine it’s winter and you come across a frozen pond with a sign saying “Beware Thin Ice”. It’s a free country and you have a choice, to step out on the ice or not. There are all sorts of reasons why the sign might not be accurate but if you go out on the ice your chances of sleeping safely in your bed that night are going to be reduced.

But it’s more than that. The truth is a token of goodwill. Someone is looking out for you and has taken the trouble to give you information that will be helpful to you, a stranger. Who would want to repay that goodwill with a lie?

To me the bio-weapon is anti-vaxxers. I’ve said this for 20 years.

@flutherother That’s exactly my point. They talk about their theories, get everyone to panic like them, then just move on with their day like nothing has happened and they most likely move on to another pointless drama/conspiracy the next day. They are talking about a life and death situation here, and they just treat it like some petty sensational drama. That makes me wonder, what’s the point of learning about the conspiracy theory at all if you just toss it away just as fast as when you talk about it? Isn’t the conspiracy theory supposed to make you more cautious about the world?

Also I put “truth” in bracket to refer to the conspiracy theories, not the actual truth.

@seawulf575 My argument is honest. If you get a vaccine you are 95% protected. If everybody gets a vaccine then you are 100% protected. Please don’t call me dishonest.

I’m not a scientist, I’m a physician, and I haven’t read (nor do I care to) every study regarding mRNA vaccines. The technology is different because of the biochemistry. The side effects are far less than the “side effect” of being on a ventilator for a month.

@seawulf575 Why are you talking about animal testing? It’s been human tested! The way animals react doesn’t always predict the efficacy or side effects in humans. That’s part of the problem with animal testing.

The mRNA’s were tested in mice and macaques.

@Caravanfan I didn’t call you dishonest, I said your argument was. And you still really haven’t addressed my statement. Since people HAVE gotten Covid after being vaccinated, is it really fair to just say that if you’ve had Covid you can get it again without mentioning getting it after being vaccinated? And looking at the cases, it looks like those that had Covid aren’t particularly more susceptible than those that were vaccinated at getting another infection.

I understand you are a physician and not a scientist. But don’t you get information about a new product you are dispensing to your patients? Or do you just blindly give it without really understanding the side effects and testing behind it? And if you, as I suspect, get the information, don’t you look into it at all?

@JLeslie Yes, I understand that animal testing doesn’t always show how humans will react. But it can, in a safer way, identify longer term impacts of a drug or vaccine. Some of the stuff I was seeing shows that mRNA testing has been done on animals in the past. Not for Covid-19, but for other things. And in every single case it showed the product was NOT safe for humans because of adverse effects, some of which took a long time to show. These vaccines for Covid-19 were never tested on animals. They were blasted into production without the benefit of that because of “the crisis”. So what you have is a type of drug that has never successfully passed animal testing suddenly being used on humans. Yep, it’s being tested on humans all right!

Expect sometime in the next couple years to see the commercial “If you or a loved one were injected with the Covid-19 vaccine and are experiencing any of these symptoms, call our law offices now. The might be monetary help for you available!”

The vaccines were tested in mice and macaques.

@seawulf575
1) You can get Covid after getting Covid. It’s not common but I’ve seen cases
2) You are less likely to get Covid if you’ve had Covid but it is not zero risk
3) Of course I look at side effect. The safety profile of these vaccines is outstandingly good

Aaaand I just found out that a covid patient who had refused vaccine that I was trying to keep off the ventilator all week last week crashed big time and is now dying. So don’t push me now. Not in the mood. Fortunately his family wised up and are all getting their vaccines next week.

@Caravanfan Yes, 1) and 2) address getting sick after Covid, but you are entirely ignoring the piece of getting Covid after the vaccine. I gave you 3 examples (could have been many, many more) where this happened. Yet you will not admit it. You will push the vaccine as if it is a panacea, failing the entire time to admit that it isn’t. People get sick after vaccination…it is a fact. And they get sick after vaccination about the same periodicity as they do after getting the actual disease.
I am sorry for your patient. I really do hope he gets better. And I will say a prayer for your peace of mind with the whole thing. I suspect you are a doctor that really cares and takes it all personally. That is a good thing.

^^Give it a rest. @Caravanfan specifically asked you to stop. Jellies need to stop if someone is getting overwhelmed and specifically asks others to take it easy on them.

Have a little empathy. He’s losing a patient.

Ditto @JLeslie

Why are you talking about animal testing?

It must be a talking point Alex Jones or some other loon is feeding the impressionable.

@Call_Me_Jay Animal testing has been done for a long time. There are records of it being done in Greece around 500 A.D. It has been done for medical purposes, to help understand how our bodies work without actually having to put our bodies in harms way. It has been done for most, if not all new drugs for a long time. There are regulations in place that talk about how to use them. And those tests have to be evaluated prior to gaining permission to test on humans.
Now comes Covid-19 and a whole lot of vaccines are being made. mRNA vaccines have been tried in the past and have shown serious issues in animals during animal testing. As a result, none of these mRNA vaccines were ever approved for use. These vaccines that are being produced for Covid-19 were not required to undergo animal testing (per the CDC guidance). My understanding is that some animal testing was conducted as the vaccines were being tried in humans at that same time. Seems the wrong way to do things.

That is why I was talking about animal testing.

” My understanding is that some animal testing was conducted as the vaccines were being tried in humans at that same time. Seems the wrong way to do things.”

Sources please @seawulf575 !

They were done simultaneously. The people who took the most risk were those in phase 1 testing.

They possibly did phase 0 testing with the vaccines I’m not sure if they did. Phase 0 uses very small amounts of the active ingredient. I don’t think it’s always done.

That has nothing to do with the vaccines now. The vaccines were tested in animals and in humans. All phases were utilized like any other trial for a vaccine or drug.