General Question

crazyguy's avatar

Do we really care if the maskless person close to you is not vaccinated?

Asked by crazyguy (3194points) June 3rd, 2021
90 responses
“Great Question” (1points)

Even though this question is in the general area of covid, it reflects a true gap in my knowledge. I am truly confused about vaccine efficacy.

The Phase III studies on the Moderna and Pfizer vaccines showed about 94% efficacy. If that were the case in real life, I would not dare go maskless next to somebody who may be unvaccinated.

However, we know that in the real world, the efficacy has been close to 100%. As of April 30, the total number of breakthrough cases reported to the CDC were 10,262 out of over 100 million fully vaccinated persons. This calculates out to an efficacy rate of 99.9999%. If that is true, then why should I care if the person next to me is unmasked and possibly unvaccinated? see https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7021e3.htm)

Unfortunately, the CDC switched gears right after the April 30 numbers. Now they track only cases that result in hospitalizations or death. As of May 24, only 2,454 such cases had been reported to the CDC out of over 130 million fully vaccinated people. This calculates out to an efficacy rate against serious Covid-19 of 99.999982%.

By the way, before anybody starts jumping on how selfish that makes me, let me remind you that asymptomatic spread by a fully vaccinated person is low. See https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/science/science-briefs/fully-vaccinated-people.html

So please answer my question. I am really, really curious.

Topics: ,
Observing members: 0
Composing members: 0

Answers

Zaku's avatar

Speaking for myself, I am not much worried about myself, as a vaccinated person, catching COVID from an unmasked person.

But (as I’ve tried to explain to you on other threads) I am concerned about maskless unvaccinated people infecting each other, or other masked unvaccinated people, both for the sake of those specific people, and everyone else they might infect, but also because I understand large-scale cause and effect. The more cases there are and the longer the disease continues to propagate, the greater the chance that it will mutate into a COVID-21 or COVID-22, which may be COVID-19-vaccine-resistant and/or possibly even more virulant and/or deadly.

So (in areas where there is still a significant proportion of unvaccinated people infected (e.g. the USA)) the more unvaccinated people wear masks, isolate and keep their distance, and the more careful they are, the faster the disease will be eradicated and the less opportunity it will have to mutate, which could make the difference between whether we end up having another pandemic right away or not.

Zaku (26937points)“Great Answer” (10points)
crazyguy's avatar

@Zaku Thanks.

I am confused now about just one thing. If the virus has not mutated into a vaccine-resistant organism after almost 3.8 million cases, should we be worried about another few hundred thousand?

Zaku's avatar

Yes, because:
* it has already significantly mutated several times, and continues to regularly
* the potential effects of a new mutations could be extreme
* it’s also about how many people may continue to die and/or have permanent symptoms and other serious effects, even from COVID that is not vaccination-proof

Further reading:
https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/conditions-and-diseases/coronavirus/a-new-strain-of-coronavirus-what-you-should-know

crazyguy's avatar

@Zaku That is a great link. I am in the midst of reading it. Thanks.

Tropical_Willie's avatar

Every new case of COVID-19 is an opportunity for a mutation – - – every one !

So then the vaccinated may get the mutated virus and they may not be able to fight it.

crazyguy's avatar

@Tropical_Willie So far the Moderna and Pfizer vaccines have proved themselves equal to the task. The vaccine development strategy has also proven itself, so any resistant variants can and will be addressed in short order, hopefully.

stanleybmanly's avatar

I can’t speak for “we”, but it does indeed matter to me regarding the assessment of the individual in front of me. To begin with, I am conflicted due to the fact that I am nearly challenged daily at some point for neglecting to put the damned thing on when I leave the car. I keep 2 of them in the pocket of the hoodie. Yet at least once nearly every day I forget to don the mask, til another masked face reminds me. It’s so bad that often even the sight of the mask doesn’t prompt me and I have to be vocally challenged. It’s embarrassing to be so absent minded. I just haven’t been out and about enough to be acclimated. But I’m getting better (I hope). I think there’s a very good chance that you should adapt yourself to the mask as at least as normal an adaptation to living as those stupid red hats.

gorillapaws's avatar

@Zaku Nailed my concerns. The only thing I’ll add is that the sooner the virus is eradicated, the sooner we can get back to normal and the economy can fully recover. Trying to push the envelope is a recipe for disaster. Anti-vaxxers and anti-maskers are the most unpatriotic Americans in recent history. It’s sad and pathetic.

YARNLADY's avatar

Personally, I just don’t like hanging out around stupid people.

Tropical_Willie's avatar

“So far the Moderna and Pfizer vaccines have proved themselves equal to the task.”

You understand that the next variant maybe not be affected by the vaccine ?
The three out there now are not the end of variants if we don’t stop having people getting infected ?

You are betting your life, your wife’s and all of your family !

You lose the bet and somebody could die.

crazyguy's avatar

@stanleybmanly If you are referring to the we in my question, I did include a cite.

Speaking purely for me, I will never adapt to the stupid mask. I do not like hats either, but I wear one to protect my balding head from the sun. I have never worn one of those stupid red hats.

Like you, I usually forget to wear a mask. Once I actually got to the restaurant I was picking dinner up from before I realized my error. Since I do not keep a mask in any of my pockets, I had to trudge back to the car parked about 70 yards away.

crazyguy's avatar

@gorillapaws I personally am not one of those two types of people you consider unpatriotic. I do wear a mask when it is necessary and I am fully vaccinated. I have in the past worn a mask for protection of myself and others; but, in future, after receiving my second vaccination dose in February, I will not wear a mask where it is not required. If that results in you considering me unpatriotic, so be it.

crazyguy's avatar

@Tropical_Willie Life is a game of risk. Every time you go for a drive, you take a risk. Every time you step outside the house, you take a risk.

If the risk is catching a strange mutation of the virus that is not only resistant to the Moderna vaccine, but also can cause a severe form of the disease, I will gladly take that infinitesimal risk.

stanleybmanly's avatar

The masks are as ubiquitous now in our existence as Kleenex. They’re in the house on the table in the foyer, the first thing you see when you enter the house and the last thing before you exit the door. They’re in the glove box in the car, the wife’s purse, my pocket.

product's avatar

I’m so glad we’re still pretending a global pandemic is a national issue.

cookieman's avatar

Ha! @YARNLADY FTW!!

My family and friends are all vaccinated. The school I teach at is requiring proof of vaccination to be on campus, so all my students will be vaccinated.

So no, I’m not worried about being around a non-vaccinated person once in a while.

crazyguy's avatar

@stanleybmanly I agree they are ubiquitous. However, we can hope they will disappear just as quickly as they appeared.

@cookieman The school you teach at will get sued. Because they are requiring students to take a drug that has only an EUA.

kritiper's avatar

I sure as heck care!

crazyguy's avatar

@product I’m so glad we’re still pretending a global pandemic is a national issue. I, for one, am not certain what your remark means or who it is intended for. Since I am the OP, I’ll address your comment. My question did no pretending. It was a simple quest for knowledge. My question did not distinguish between Americans and foreigners. It did not even assume a location. It applied to every place.

crazyguy's avatar

@kritiper To each his own. If you wish to triple mask, be my guest. However, by the same token, please do not force me or anybody else to do the same.

crazyguy's avatar

@Zaku I have finished reading that wonderful article. It left me with a little trepidation…and a lot of hope.

“As far as these variants are concerned, we don’t need to overreact,” Bollinger says. “But, as with any virus, changes are something to be watched, to ensure that testing, treatment and vaccines are still effective. The scientists will continue to examine new versions of this coronavirus’s genetic sequencing as it evolves.”

“In the meantime, we need to continue all of our efforts to prevent viral transmission and to vaccinate as many people as possible, and as soon as we can.”

product's avatar

@crazyguy – I’m mostly referring to the general tone here. There are actually people evoking “patriotism” regarding a global pandemic. It’s depressing to see people fight tooth and nail on the edges of an issue. We’re not eradicating Covid-19. It’s here for good, and we’re choosing to allow it to run rampant globally in hopes that viruses will respect borders.

Sure, concerns of mutation are real. But vaccinating 100% of the US population isn’t going to stop mutations. It’s a global pandemic.

Liberals complaining about “anti-vaxxers” is cute and all, but if we’re not putting everything we have to make a true global effort to eradicate this (and future viruses), this performative dance that we’re all taking part in (masks, no masks, vaxxxxx, no vaxxxxxxxx, etc) is an exercise in self-righteous bullshit.

I wear a mask in stores even though I’m vaccinated and it’s no longer required in my state. But I’m not going to pretend that I deserve an award in “patriotism” for doing so (still can’t believe that).

Everyone has their own comfort level of exposure, and I’d like to respect that. Wearing a mask in a store is not enough of an inconvenience that I disregard the concerns of others.

KNOWITALL's avatar

I am concerned because we have multiple fully vaccinated people in the hospital right now in my area. So yes, I’ll be staying masked in public, crowds, etc.. until the numbers drop again.

LuckyGuy's avatar

Yes. I care. They are keeping the virus alive and letting it mutate into something that will eventually require a booster shot or new vaccine.
If everyone just got the shot there would be fewer opportunities for it to spread and change.

The vaccine is such an easy solution. Almost 300million doses have been administered. I can understand if someone has some underlying condition that precludes getting one. OK, I get it. Some people are afraid of the “Fauci ouchy”. . But, the vaccine is such an easy solution. Just do it.

Warning: to the unvaccinated guy without the mask. If my 2 year old grandson gets seriously ill from a case of Covid he got from you, be looking over your shoulder for the rest of your life. I am going to hunt you down like a dog.

Tropical_Willie's avatar

@crazyguy “If the risk is catching a strange mutation of the virus that is not only resistant to the Moderna vaccine, but also can cause a severe form of the disease, I will gladly take that infinitesimal risk.”

It is not infinitesimal but you bet your life ! No “do-overs” for dead !

stanleybmanly's avatar

That is the crux of this. The inability to accept your obligation to the welfare of your fellows or for that matter, yourself.

JLeslie's avatar

I don’t obsess about it, but it annoys me. I try to distance or wear a mask when I think there is a high probability I will be around unvaccinated people. I rather not test my immunity with an exposure.

Where I live I don’t worry about people being maskless. I am in Nashville right now and just under 40% of the population has had their first shot. More likely to run into an unvaccinated person than vaccinated. Yesterday, I was in the grocery store and the cashier who had her mask half on said that employees that are not vaccinated have to still wear a mask. That means she is unvaccinated and barely wearing a mask, and same with the guy bagging the groceries. Right there if one of them catches covid they are likely to pass it to the other. So, I care that two people near me are being careless.

sorry's avatar

Seeing as how I might be one of those people who have an immune system problem and couldn’t take the vaccine for a legit medical reason, yeah. The ignorant, unvaccinated mouth breather beside me is putting my life at risk. If you’re not vaccinated, or even if you are vaccinated, and there are cases spreading in your area, wear a mask on the bus, train, waiting room etc where you might have to sit shoulder to shoulder with people.

sorry's avatar

Not to mention that kids under 12 aren’t going to be vaccinated. It’s not difficult to think about folks other than yourself. If you don’t do it now, as a habit, I suggest going to have a chat with someone who can help you consider others wellbeing. So, if empathy doesn’t come naturally to you, go see a specialist who can help you develop that.

cookieman's avatar

@crazyguy: Maybe, but then so will just about every other college and university in New England as most are requiring it.

I don’t see the problem as students have been required to show proof of vaccinations for years. This just adds another to the list.

flutherother's avatar

Are you saying that because the virus is highly effective that we shouldn’t care whether people take it or not because that doesn’t make much sense to me.

JLeslie's avatar

The ultimate goal with the vaccines would be to get to herd immunity and get rid of the virus from the plant. That’s a loft goal, but we can get herd immunity in the US and basically get rid of it here, except for small outbreaks now and then, If the vaccine continues to be effective against variants.

That’s partly why the United States keeps encouraging people to get vaccinated. They haven’t officially said we will need a new booster every year like a flu vaccine, so for now I’m staying with these vaccines are effective.

TJFKAJ's avatar

I don’t know about “we”.
But I don’t care. Everybody I care about has gotten the vaccine.
If other folks want to take a risk, I guess that is their business. Don’t know why people don’t take the opportunity, but you never know about people.

crazyguy's avatar

@product I respect your decision to wear a mask in stores and other places where it is not required. Your action gives cover to the unvaccinated who are required to wear a mask, does it not? But, as long as people like me are not forced to wear a mask, I am fine with your decision.

I think the question boils down to just how much faith you place in the vaccine. If the chances of going to a hospital or dying from covid are reduced below the chances of being struck by lightning, would you still wear a mask or would you instead wear a lightning bypass (I am not even certain they make such a device)?

As far as your point about the concerns of others, I am not clear how anybody should be concerned about you not wearing a mask if they are vaccinated. And if they are not, they should be more concerned about other unvaccinated people, not about you.

crazyguy's avatar

@KNOWITALL I am truly surprised that multiple fully vaccinated people are in your hospital right now. My SIL’s partner got sick after being fully vaccinated, and we have a few other instances, including a death. However, the stats are that the risk of a breakthrough infection resulting in hospitalization or death is 0.000018. For comparison, the risk of being hit by lightning in a year is 1 in 500,000 or about 0.000002.

crazyguy's avatar

@LuckyGuy I share your sentiment. I agree that everybody who can should get vaccinated. However, my question is specific. It is two fold:

1. What risk do I pose to anybody now that I am fully vaccinated?
2. And what risk does a maskless unvaccinated person pose to me?

My research leads me to believe the risks in both of those categories are infinitesimal.What do you think?

crazyguy's avatar

@Tropical_Willie Is .000018 infinitesimal? I’d the risk of being struck by lightning, .000002 infinitesimal?

crazyguy's avatar

@stanleybmanly What risk would you consider infinitesimal?

crazyguy's avatar

@JLeslie I would like to see everybody vaccinated. I think one way to accomplish that goal is to let vaccinated people enjoy some perks. To me personally, going maskless and not needing a covid test for travel are tremendous perks.

In the meantime, the question I am posing is twofold:

1. What risk do I pose to anybody now that I am fully vaccinated?
2. And what risk does a maskless unvaccinated person pose to me?

crazyguy's avatar

@flutherother I never said I do not care about people getting vaccinated. My question is twofold:

1. What risk do I pose to anybody now that I am fully vaccinated?
2. And what risk does a maskless unvaccinated person pose to me?

crazyguy's avatar

@JLeslie I agree. I think our minor disagreement is over what we do in the meantime. My position is that since I pose little or no risk to an unvaccinated person (and even less to a vaccinated person) and I have essentially a zero chance of catching a serious form of covid, I should be free to go maskless.

crazyguy's avatar

@TJFKAJ Agreed. Anybody who can, should get the vaccination. However, do you worry about others not being vaccinated being in the same shop as you?

product's avatar

@crazyguy: “I think the question boils down to just how much faith you place in the vaccine. If the chances of going to a hospital or dying from covid are reduced below the chances of being struck by lightning, would you still wear a mask or would you instead wear a lightning bypass (I am not even certain they make such a device)?”

I’m not wearing the mask in stored _for me. I’m not concerned about catching Covid.

@crazyguy: “As far as your point about the concerns of others, I am not clear how anybody should be concerned about you not wearing a mask if they are vaccinated. And if they are not, they should be more concerned about other unvaccinated people, not about you.”

I don’t wear a “I’ve been vaccinated” hat. So my presence in a grocery store presents as an unvaccinated man. So, I don’t mind wearing a mask for now.

I am currently still masking up when I go into a grocery store. Why?

1. I don’t wear anything telling people I’m vaccinated. Why worry people?
2. There are plenty of people who have not yet been vaccinated, including children, who are not yet eligible.
3. Wearing a mask in a store or wearing shoes/clothes is no problem for me. I can’t see why it would be.

kritiper's avatar

@crazyguy Please mask up for the benefit of mankind as a whole. You owe it to them.

JLeslie's avatar

@crazyguy I think the breakthrough risk is higher than your statistics, but still very extremely low.

The statistics were calculated either during the trials, when most of the country was masked, staying inside, distancing, and not gathering in large groups; or, from when vaccinations first were being given out when people were still masked and there will still some limitations on possibly passing along the disease, whether government or self imposed.

I think this past month and the next month are going to be this weird time of everything open, mostly back to normal, and only 40–50% vaccinated and more chance for breakthrough infection. Later in the summer when it’s 50–80% vaccinated across the country then breakthrough will go way back down again.

I think people don’t give value (I’m not accusing you of this) of how much the precautions we took worked.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@crazyguy Yes, I couldn’t get which vaccine they got, but at least three were fully vaccinated and still ended up in hospital.

The thing is, like our fluther doc said, herd immunity isn’t known to be applicable to this mutating virus. I don’t think everyone is absorbing that fact in their decision-making. I’m afraid people are getting a false sense of security with masks, just like last year. I read we could be looking at up to 7 years of masks and vaccinations to knock this thing out for good.

The local hospitals, again via my RN cousin, have had mostly 30–20 something’s to a 7 week old, and a few seniors as well in the last few weeks, a definite uptick since the mask ordinances expired.

We are at 37.42% vaccinated, 46.29 daily average cases (7 day avg), 57 cases currently in hospital in our county.

Tropical_Willie's avatar

@crazyguy

”@Tropical_Willie Is .000018 infinitesimal? I’d the risk of being struck by lightning, .000002 infinitesimal?”

Is that your opinion ?

Where are you getting these numbers ?

Source please or are you just msking it up ?

crazyguy's avatar

@product I struggled with my decision for a long time because of a lack of visual confirmation of a person’s vaccination status. However, given the near-fact that a vaccinated person has no chance of catching or transmitting the disease, I think it makes no difference whether the person next to you is vaccinated or not.

If you think differently, I would like to hear your rationale.

product's avatar

@crazyguy: “However, given the near-fact that a vaccinated person has no chance of catching or transmitting the disease, I think it makes no difference whether the person next to you is vaccinated or not.”

I’m not sure what the actual chance of catching and transmitting covid is while vaccinated. I’m not sure anyone really does at this point. We’re in the middle of a global pandemic where a virus is mutating, and the science is only as good as the data we’re able to retrieve. I almost don’t care. Like I said, for now, wearing a mask to the supermarket provides no negatives and all positives. Therefore, this is what I’m currently doing.

But I’m generally a considerate person, so this is probably not out of character to me. Individual results will vary.

crazyguy's avatar

@product no negatives and all positives Left me point out two negatives:

1. Some of us poor souls have to suck in our breath anyway, because it takes a fraction of a psi pressure drop through our air passages. The mask increases the effort significantly. When I breathe through a mask, you can see it deflating and dilating.

2. You are reducing the incentive for the unvaccinated to join your ranks.

Tropical_Willie's avatar

“near-fact that a vaccinated person has no chance of catching or transmitting the disease,”

The operative word is “NEAR-FACT” it still your opinion ! And is not a fact.

product's avatar

@crazyguy: “1. Some of us poor souls have to suck in our breath anyway, because it takes a fraction of a psi pressure drop through our air passages. The mask increases the effort significantly. When I breathe through a mask, you can see it deflating and dilating.”

I can’t imagine you would have survived had you been infected with Covid.

@crazyguy: “2. You are reducing the incentive for the unvaccinated to join your ranks.”

Nope.

Demosthenes's avatar

California just announced a policy that workers will have to wear masks as long as an unvaccinated person is in the room. Which seems absolutely absurd to me as it will lead to retribution against the unvaccinated person whose presence is forcing everyone to wear masks and on the flip side it’s forcing vaccinated people to “protect” unvaccinated people who have chosen not to get the vaccine and should know and accept the risks of not getting one.

TJFKAJ's avatar

@crazyguy
No I don’t worry about it.
That is why I got the vaccine so I wouldn’t have to worry about it.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@Demosthenes I’m really surprised to hear that as legally, I read that employers are allowed to prevent unvaccinated workers in the place of employment. Bizarre.

flo's avatar

(Even after 2 weeks?) after the 2 shots, there could be hospitalization, eventhough iy may be rare.
”...fully vaccinated people should continue to adhere to Covid-19 related safety protocols, such as wearing a mask, maintaining appropriate social distance from others, avoiding crowds and poorly ventilated spaces, and washing their hands often.”
https://www.indiatoday.in/coronavirus-outbreak/vaccine-updates/story/you-can-get-covid-19-even-after-getting-two-doses-vaccine-but-no-need-panic-all-questions-faqs-1796654-2021-04-30

flo (13313points)“Great Answer” (3points)
mazingerz88's avatar

I care since I tend to be with people with medical conditions which if they even just get the typical flu might bring them to the ICU. Covid will definitely kill them.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@mazingerz88 My friend just got out of the hospital yesterday with Covid.

To him, a healthy 43 year old, it was miserably akin to the flu but he still needed to be hospitalized. Non-smoker, not overweight, etc…

flo's avatar

To a lot of people it’s not an oppressive thing to just keep wearing mask, wash hands etc. It’s more oppressive actually to constantly be thinking about the chances of catching COVID.

flo (13313points)“Great Answer” (3points)
gorillapaws's avatar

@product ”...but if we’re not putting everything we have to make a true global effort to eradicate this (and future viruses), this performative dance that we’re all taking part in (masks, no masks, vaxxxxx, no vaxxxxxxxx, etc) is an exercise in self-righteous bullshit.”

I agree that we should be making a full global effort to eradicate Covid-19. I disagree that mask wearing and encouraging vaccination is a “self-righteous” “performative dance.” Reducing the R value of the virus is how we eradicate the virus.

But I’m not going to pretend that I deserve an award in “patriotism” for doing so (still can’t believe that).”

That’s a mischaracterization of my statement. I said being anti-masker and anti-vaxxer is unpatriotic. That’s different from saying people who wear masks deserve awards.

Patriotism isn’t the driving force behind my actions, but it’s an argument tailored to the audience. When a MAGA guy thinks he’s a patriot, who loves America, the economy and freedom tries to make the case that vaccines and masks are anti-American, I’m going to point out that a real patriot would do their part to try to accelerate the eradication of the virus instead of helping it spread and persist, hurting America, the economy, and diminishing freedom for longer as a result. Again, not my primary motivation (preserving humanity globally), but motivations that may resonate with the MAGA crowd.

@crazyguy “If you wish to triple mask, be my guest. However, by the same token, please do not force me or anybody else to do the same.”

I don’t think anyone’s advocating universal triple masking. We are advocating for people to using simple precautions while this thing is still an active threat.

Do you feel responsible for the particles you emit into the public? Do you believe in personal responsibility? If you happen to be the “infinitesimally unlikely” person who gestates the mutated strain that is more lethal, transmissible and vaccine resistant, how do you expect to compensate the people of the world? Or do you think people should not be held accountable for their actions? Any one of us could create trillions of dollars of cost, and kill millions of people around the world. What you’re doing is transferring that risk onto other people. And nobody knows what that risk really is. They can guess and make predictions based on data, but anyone doing so will tell you that any predictions would have a large error bar.

How low is the risk? Here’s an example: a 0.00000000003422313% chance sounds unlikely right? Pretty much 0, right? That’s the odds of winning the Mega Millions. So nobody ever wins the lottery right? Well we both know that’s not true. Infinitesimally low odds are only negligible when there’s only 1 opportunity to “win” (i.e. 1 ticket sold). When you have a virus like COVID-19 with a high replication rate and the potential to spread through a population exponentially, those “infinitesimally unlikely” odds start to look much less infinitesimal. When the potential downside is something really horrible (such as the potential for something like a near-extinction event in a worst-case scenario), we should be taking things much more seriously.

Just to further beat a dead horse and drive the point home, here’s a thought experiment:

Let’s say some hacker managed to write a program that would detonate all of the world’s nuclear weapons simultaneously. He rigged this up to buttons on a website. Every time someone clicked on the button there was a random number generated with an infinitesimally small likelihood that it would match some predefined number. If that happens the weapons detonate. If someone said, “I want to click the button. If you don’t want to, you don’t have to. The odds of it going off are infinitesimally low. It’s tyranny for anyone to try to tell me I can’t click the button. I have the freedom to do what I want.” how would you respond to them?

SnipSnip's avatar

No. However, many of us will care because the media tells us to. 1984

product's avatar

@gorillapaws: “I disagree that mask wearing and encouraging vaccination is a “self-righteous” “performative dance.””

Global vaccination rates are abysmal and IP laws are still being discussed – in June 2021! The EU doesn’t even support any TRIPS waiver, never mind the TRIPS waiver. All I’m saying is that there is a tendency to look at one’s town/county/state/country vaccination rates and believe that if we just got a few more people here to vaccinate, we’re be done with this. We’re fighting about what temperature the air conditioner should be set at while all of the windows are open.

@gorillapaws: “Patriotism isn’t the driving force behind my actions, but it’s an argument tailored to the audience. ”

Oh, I got that. The liberal reflex to co-opt conservatives’ arguments and beat them by being more right-wing than they are is ubiquitous. The rush to the right does nothing but move policy and action further right.

And while I understand the strategic need to appeal to certain populations with arguments that will meet them where they are, I think embracing dangerous concepts like “patriotism” in service to even a reasonable goal is extremely dangerous.

crazyguy's avatar

@Tropical_Willie I hope you found the links, and actually took the time to study them. If you did, then you would know that the risk of catching a serious variety of covid (one that requires hospitalization or ends in death) is 0.000018. I made the blunder of calling that no chance. I stand corrected.

crazyguy's avatar

@product I am barely surviving the mask. You are absolutely correct in saying that I would not have survived covid.

By wearing a mask even though you are vaccinated, in my opinion, there is no doubt that you are reducing the incentive for the unvaccinated to join the ranks of the vaccinated. If that is not clear to you…

crazyguy's avatar

@Demosthenes I live in California. And I am not surprised by the decision. Of course, the question will be: how would anybody know that there is an unvaccinated person in the room?

crazyguy's avatar

@flo I believe I conceded in my question that the chance of catching covid is non-zero. However, it is almost as low as getting struck by lightning.

crazyguy's avatar

@mazingerz88 I also care. However, the statistics cannot, and should not be, ignored. If they are, you will risk a lack of adherence to orders.

crazyguy's avatar

@KNOWITALL I feel bad for your friend. I am glad he survived. However, he represents the 0.002% of vaccinated people who may suffer a similar fate. Would you rather inconvenience the other 99.998% to prevent a covid episode (probably not fatal) for the 0.002%?

Tropical_Willie's avatar

Well my county it is 0.2% dead, 16% have had COVID-19 and only 29% have had full vaccinations . . .

So your numbers are BS !
. . . and you don’t have a source it is made up numbers . . . or it is just your opinion.

And 80% of the people in the supermarket don’t wear masks (the state requires you wear mask if you are not fully vaccinated). Only 29% are fully vaccinated !

crazyguy's avatar

@gorillapaws There is a paucity of information relative to the very small number of serious cases of covid among the vaccinated. I am guessing that most of them had some pre-existing conditions that made them more susceptible to the virus. I say guess, because I have not found any specific information.

If my guess is correct then the chances of a healthy person suffering a serious case of covid are even lower than the number applicable to the general population, which, by my calculations is 0.0018%. I would remind you that the chances of being struck by lightning in any given year are about 0.0001%.

Your analogy of setting off a bunch of nuclear bombs is apt; however, there is a difference between doing something that may be destructive versus not doing something to guard yourself (and others) against an infinitesimally small risk of a disease that will probably not be serious for most people.

As far as the Mega Millions goes, how many tickets do you buy every week?

crazyguy's avatar

@product The reason that covid may be on its last legs is the effort over the last couple of decades by Moderna to develop their mRNA technique of producing vaccines. If you or anybody else supported taking away their IP, you would quickly see an end to all kinds of entrepreneurial effort in this country.

sorry's avatar

@crazyguy It wasn’t Moderna that came up with the mRNA process. They BOUGHT the rights, along with the company that ended up working with Pfizer (BioNTech). Katalin Karikó, a Hungarian biochemist, and Drew Weissman, a physician scientist both came up with the work that was later licenced to BioNTech/Pfizer and Moderna. Your ‘near-facts’ are showing again.

seawulf575's avatar

Am I worried about a maskless person next to me? Not at all. Never have been. I would say there is a bit of a misunderstanding in the original question too. The OP stated that he would not dare to be maskless next to someone that is unvaccinated. Masks are supposed to protect you from spreading the disease, not getting it. So wearing a mask to protect yourself seems to be a misunderstanding.

There is another point not addressed in the original question. The OP went into great detail to point out that the breakthrough cases following vaccination are extremely low. That is a true statement. However, the breakthrough cases of those that had the disease once is equally low. All those hundreds of thousands of cases and only a very small number of people that got the disease again. Yet we as a society are being programmed to act like that isn’t real, that only vaccination can save us.

This question opens up a lot of points that show what a sham the entire thing is. The CDC just suddenly changed course to count only the cases that result in hospitalization. Imagine if that had been done from the start? Our entire “crisis” would have been a fizzle show. Instead, they made a huge production out of the number of cases and the media helped push the idea that if you got this disease you would be hospitalized at the very least. They even counted all deaths where the person was found to have Covid as a Covid death. In other words, someone is killed by a gun, but they had Covid, it was a Covid death. Killed in a car accident? Same thing. Had cancer? Same thing. The CDC even gave the guidance for this manipulation of data to occur. When they change their guidelines for counting cases like this, it shows how politicized the entire thing is.

The question also opens the door to looking at the efficiency of masks again. When I do my research, I find a number of studies that show they do not work.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19216002/
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19797474/
https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/epidemiology-and-infection/article/face-masks-to-prevent-transmission-of-influenza-virus-a-systematic-%20review/64D368496EBDE0AFCC6639CCC9D8BC05
https://apps.who.int/iris/bitstream/handle/10665/329438/9789241516839-eng.pdf?ua=1 I particularly love this one. They give their investigative aspects of their study and then have the statement, in a box by itself, highlighted that says ”OVERALL RESULT OF EVIDENCE ON FACE MASKS
1. Ten RCTs were included in the meta-analysis, and there was no evidence that face masks are effective in reducing transmission of laboratory-confirmed influenza.” But then, true to politicization, they state “There are no major adverse effects of face mask use.” In other words, masks don’t work, but it can’t hurt.

stanleybmanly's avatar

You can research this disease until your eyes water and compile statistics til the cows come home. I don’t give a shit what’s published or broadcast. But I have noticed that those who prefer to minimize this disease and pass it off as hype seem predictably prone to contract as well as expire from the plague in inordinate numbers. It isn’t mass hysteria that generates the current gold rush in coffin sales or the galloping conservative casualty list.

seawulf575's avatar

@stanleybmanly Your sources? What are the “inordinate numbers”?

stanleybmanly's avatar

You want the statistic that matters to me? You got it. I did not.

product's avatar

@crazyguy: “The reason that covid may be on its last legs is the effort over the last couple of decades by Moderna to develop their mRNA technique of producing vaccines. If you or anybody else supported taking away their IP, you would quickly see an end to all kinds of entrepreneurial effort in this country.”

Good

sorry's avatar

@product good link. ;) another of her articles: https://www.forbes.com/sites/judystone/2021/05/07/wearing-a-mask-for-covid-19-protection-is-scientific-and-perfectly-normal/?sh=4a192016c1a9 Sure, plenty of folks will get the virus and not get seriously ill, but every host contributes to the ability of the the virus to mutate. It’s what viruses do.

crazyguy's avatar

@product @sorry I glanced through both articles. As expected, the early research done by Moderna is completely overlooked in favor of the Johnny Come Lately involvement by the Feds.

Response moderated (Unhelpful)
crazyguy's avatar

@sorry Whether Moderna developed the technology or BOUGHT the rights to it is totally immaterial. The point is that they owned the rights before the Feds got involved.

sorry's avatar

@crazyguy NOPE, the feds were involved from the beginning. The vaccine was developed by public funding.

crazyguy's avatar

@seawulf575 I agree. The evidence does not point to a distinction between vaccinated people and recovered Covid patients. I think injecting people without an analysis of antibodies in their bloodstream is irresponsible and wasteful.

As far as going maskless if the vaccine were only 94% efficacious, the mask would provide little or no protection to me; however, in the event the 6% chance came home to roost, the mask would protect others in my vicinity.

Response moderated (Off-Topic)
Response moderated (Unhelpful)
Response moderated
Response moderated (Unhelpful)
Response moderated (Flame-Bait)
Response moderated (Flame-Bait)
Response moderated (Unhelpful)

Answer this question

Login

or

Join

to answer.

Mobile | Desktop


Send Feedback   

`