I think our education system is fine.
The parents of our students undo everything we try to teach them. They actively undermine us.

Declaring without action to ameliorate the situation does nothing.

Depends on where you live. Nicer neighborhood, higher taxes — usually gets you better schools, nicer facilities, (slightly) higher paid teachers with a decent professional development plan.

Neglected, run down neighborhoods generally get terrible schools, etc.

It’s an inequity problem.

If you mean that it isn’t teaching kids to think for themselves, to make rational choices, to develop skills they will likely need in the future…it is an emergency. If you mean it isn’t meeting its unofficial goal of indoctrination, it’s just fine.

Well, it’s just easier to teach 32 kids at the same time if we’re all on the same page.

No matter what the schools teach, the students will take on their parent’s / culture’s belief system.

I don’t think I’m on board with calling it a national emergency, but of course we should focus on improving it. We need to make it more equitable so all children have opportunity to go to good schools. The income of the parents should not affect whether a child goes to a good public school.

The thing is, schools are mostly governed at the state level, or even down to the individual school districts.

What exactly would declaring it a national emergency do?

There is an attack on public education by the right wing, that has been going on for many many years. We need to fight against their pursuits. They want to take money from the public system to feed their religious schools.

@stanleybmanly IMHO our educational system does not measure up to many other countries. This was made worse by common core. Closing schools hurt our students a lot. Look at Japan.

Japan has a long culture of conformity and obedience that no American would stand for.

@si3tech Where are the actual studies closing schools hurt our children a lot? Do you mean because of covid? We don’t know yet the long term affects. A lot of kids and parents preferred hybrid or home schooling. I don’t doubt some kids were hurt by it, and some kids were set back more than others, but a lot of schools have been open all year. Graduating at age 19 isn’t tragic if some kids need time to catch up. It matters how old they were this past year also. 1st graders are affected differently than 15 year olds.

It will be interesting to see what happens the next school year.

A national emergency? When, after years and years, we have been dumbing it down? Now whose fault is that??

@kritiper…the parent’s fault. They have been dumbing their kids down for years.

@Dutchess_III You are partially right. The parents hold a measure of responsibility. For too many years, many parents have not taken seriously how the schools are run nor what is being taught. However, when you have a public school system, it should take its job seriously. That has failed over the years too. Idiotic things like No Child Left Behind hurt our schools in many ways. The curriculum was dumbed down, the focus was on passing standardized tests so the federal money would keep coming, and very little effort was put into making sure the kids knew how to deal with life or to think for themselves.
You also made a comment about it doesn’t matter what it taught, the kids will take on their parents/cultures belief system. Again, partially right. Except in many, MANY cases, the parent’s belief system is nothing like the culture’s belief system. And with the school not teaching critical thinking skills, the kids are left with those two choices to figure out what is “good”, what is “acceptable”, and what they should act like.
I’m a firm believer that parents need to be actively involved in what is going on at the school, whether it be curriculum or attitudes or anything else. They need to be focused on how their kids are doing academically and socially and work with the kids when they are struggling in a particular area.

You’ll never get everyone on the same page. Everyone has an agenda and it is not improving the education of our kids. School choice seems to be an obvious solution. If your kids are deficient in the 3 Rs find a better school. There are good schools out there and parents should have the opportunity use them.

@Jaxk School choice within the public system, or use the vouchers for private schools?

@Jaxk….”You’ll never get everyone on the same page.” Well that’s just one more thing that makes teaching so hard.

School choice would cripple our public school system.

It’s also inequitable for families who are unable to navigate the process.

What if it’s a question of the chicken or the egg? Are the schools culpable for the failures of the society, or has the society failed the schools? For example, concerning the liabilities as well as the responsibilities these days, who in their right mind would choose to be a teacher?

@JLeslie – Vouchers. We spend over $12,000 per student nationally. I should be able to use that money to give my kids the best education possible not what some politician thinks is what they deserve. If you want your kids to learn CRT, send them to a school that teaches that. If you think education should focus on reading writing and arithmetic, send them to a school that teaches that. We’ll all be better off if we can teach as much as the student can learn rather than teaching at a level the politicians can accept.

@Jaxk So, to be clear, you are ok using the voucher for private school including religious private schools. Is that right?

You do realize that’s a way that the religious right is trying to turn education into religious education and also might raise tuition prices if you believe the school loans for college likely raised tuition in the college system.

You may not have the goal of increasing religious education, but people in your coalition absolutely do. The political right talks about public education secularizing our children and being a tool of the liberals all the time. It’s crazy talk, but many of them believe it even if they themselves went to public school and had no such experience. They have total amnesia. A friend from high school was babbling about it on Facebook and when I asked if he was aware of the politics or religion of our teachers in school and if they ever tried to influence any of us about either I got total silence. Typical right wing response. Our schools did nothing of the sort.

I don’t think of you as religious right or right wing, I’m just talking about that part of the Republican Party That has a lot of voice and power and often bad intentions with hidden agendas.

As far as school choice within the public system, I’m all for it.

@JLeslie – I’m not religious but I’m not afraid of it either. Those that may choose a religious school for their kids probably provide religious training to their kids already. You would not be required to send your kids to a religious school so why are you so afraid of it. I went to public school all my life and my wife went to Catholic school. We both ended up the same way, not religious. I sent my son to Montessori school and he ended up religious. I just don’t see a problem nor a connection. If public school has to compete maybe they will return to actual education rather than political indoctrination.

@Jaxk I completely support the availability of religious schools, I just don’t support public money going to them. Catholic school today in the US is very different than many of the Evangelical run schools or Muslim schools.

You know what’s going to be VERY entertaining concerning taxpayer vouchers financing religious schools? The first day some Madras in this country sues a school district for its cut.

@Jaxk I am of the feeling that it is exactly that choice…what you want your children to learn, that our current drive in the public education system is terrified of. If you get to choose to send your kids to a school that doesn’t push all the indoctrination, they will lose that foothold. Of course the end result of all this is that you would have a whole bunch of people screaming how they didn’t have a choice or that they were treated unfairly by their choices. The people that chose wisely will, of course, be the bad guys.

My daughter just finished thirteen years at a Franciscan Catholic school (K-12). Very light on religion. Excellent science classes. Good community building. Students were of all different backgrounds and religions. Reasonably priced. Great education.

My wife is a (very) lapsed Catholic. I’m agnostic. My daughter came out of it with an affinity for some of the traditions but is pretty sure there’s no god and the Bible is a work of fiction.

She liked the quality of the education so much, she chose a Catholic college for the Fall.

I have zero issues with Catholic education, in my experience.

My oldest went to a private school for her first 6 years. Pentecostal. Same thing. Emphasis was on education and science.

People require “indoctrination” in choosing wisely, as well (unfortunately) as to how to evaluate what they manage to ingest. It doesn’t matter one ounce what you manage to compile or harvest if you are incapable of reasonable assessment of the data.

Why is @stanleybmanly the only one understanding the problem.

My husband and his siblings went to Catholic school as young children and none of them are very religious. One of my closest friend went to Catholic school K-12 and is now an atheist (she has been very religious and not religious on and off. So? That’s not the point.

@JLeslie – If @stanleybmanly is the only one that agrees with you, you’re in trouble. That alone should give you pause.

Personally, I don’t have a problem with people choosing what school they want their children indoctrinated in. I just don’t think the state should support all school choices. Private school should be privately funded.

The purpose of “school choice” is to defund public schools.

@product I think we’re in agreement. I was saying if people opt out of the public school system, they need to pay for it.

^ My comment wasn’t in response to your’s.

^^ OK. I wasn’t sure.

@Jaxk Actually, other jellies agree with public funding not going to private schools as seen in recent answers. @stanleybmanly just understood Christians who are fervently fighting for their tax money to be able to be spent on their private schools don’t bother to think that one day the private schools could be Muslim schools or some other religion they don’t like.

I’m curious, do you live in an area with good public schools? Do you live in an area where white kids go to private and black kids go to public, and white parents say things like they “don’t want to pay for other people’s kids to go to school,” plus things like, “black people don’t know how to hold down a job because even in school they don’t have to tuck in their shirt or wear tie.” I doubt you live in a place like that. That garbage really exists.

Plus, what about my comment of public vouchers might cause tuition to go up. Do you not see that as a risk?

@JLeslie: I agree that public funding shouldn’t go to Catholic (or any private schools). We paid for all thirteen years out of pocket.

That said, since we didn’t take advantage of the sub-par public schools available to us (one of which lost their accreditation), I wouldn’t have minded a break on my property taxes — but that would never happen.

Just for the record, what exactly is the harmful indoctrination that our conservative friends find so abhorrent?

@cookieman I don’t have children and paid the same taxes as people with children using the public system. I heard some states do give a tax break to people who do not have children using the school system, but I wasn’t clear if it was based on how many kids are in the home, or if it was just a typical older age tax break that many states have that is more about older people not losing their homes than anything else. Private school is so expensive, I understand why people want a break if they are paying for their child’s education out of pocket.

When I lived in TN there was a school issue, I have mentioned it before, so I won’t explain at length. One thing I will never forget was a friend during that time complaining about the taxes she paid for education, and that the inner city kids might get bused out to the school her kids go to (which was ridiculous in my mind, because she lived so far out and it wasn’t like her schools offered some super duper program) if the county took over the city school district. She paid about $4K in property tax a year, and had two kids in the public school. I was paying for her kids education, her part of the deal was a bargain! If she paid taxes until she was 70 years old it probably barely would cover the expense of school for her two children for 13 years. Yet, she felt entitled to complain.

So, even people who are utilizing the public system who think their schools are great complain about paying the tax and feel on an emotional level they are paying for other people’s kids to go to school. It’s the Republican schtick in the redder areas of the country.

“…even people who are utilizing the public system who think their schools are great complain about paying the tax and feel on an emotional level they are paying for other people’s kids…”

Yeah, that’s just silly. If I had been forward-thinking enough to buy a house in a good school district (we weren’t originally planning to become parents), and my kid went to said public schools, I wouldn’t bat an eye at paying the taxes. Fair deal.

I do think folks who choose not to become parents should be able to opt out at least partially.

Probably that they all learn to read and write and do math and other subversive crap @stanleybmanly.

@cookieman: “I do think folks who choose not to become parents should be able to opt out at least partially.”

That defeats the whole concept of public education (and taxes).

Taxes aren’t a matter of paying in and getting out what you put in. Taxes pay for public education because we’ve decided as a society that there is a societal benefit to having public education. Childless taxpayers still benefit from funding public education.

@Dutchess III There MUST be more to it than that. This thing about “indoctrination”. People get tired of me perpetually bitching about the former President. But there is not a one of us here who was not taught from birth to reject that sort of slime on sight. We were supposedly INDOCTRINATED from birth to reject each and every trait for which the scumbag is distinguished, and yet his slimy ass persisted a full 4 years in charge of this show in defiance of every moral or ethical precept on the books. The very possibility of such a thing is to me so unbelievable that I want to think it a failure in education, but It’s terrifying if I must accept that it’s worse than that.

@cookieman @product : Another advantage that homeowners in good school districts get is higher home values. Even if a family does not presently have children or have children attending the public school, in a good district, people will be clamoring to buy a home there, rent a home there, do anything to get their kids into that school system.

I’m in a great, small district in an affluent area of NY, and all the time, especially in the summer, people are posting that they’re looking to buy a house or rent a house in the district, due to wanting to get their kids into the school.

@stanleybmanly….that was not due to a failure of education. It was due to a failure of parenting first and foremost, and society secondly.

@stanleybmanly – You’re right about one thing, “People get tired of me perpetually bitching about the former President”.

@JLeslie I don’t know what your issue is with Muslim schools but if you don’t like them, don’t send your kids to one. That’s what ‘school choice’ is all about. As for rising costs, it is not the same as college tuition. The cost for K-12 are fixed. they raise the price for a given school and you have to come up with the difference or send your kids to another school (public or private). College tuition is different since if the cost goes up, you just get a bigger loan and with all the hype about forgiving those loans, you don’t pay anything.

Our education system is in shambles. Too many kids can’t read or write, have little knowledge about history or math. How do we fix it? Competition is an excellent tool to use. Just pouring more money into the public schools hasn’t done squat except to increase the number of administrators.

@Jaxk I have no issue with most Muslim schools most likely. I don’t know much about them. My Muslim friends as far as I am concerned are just like me in every way that matters to me, I have zero negative thoughts about their beliefs or religious practices. I think the more fanatic of Christians in our country who want voucher money for their Christian schools really do care about Muslim schools. Some Muslim schools from what I understand teach things most Americans would not be on board with, but I can say the exact same thing about some Evangelical schools. This is about funding religious schools, and I really can not understand how any American thinks it is ok. What happened to separation of church and state?

Also, if parents can afford $15K a year for their kids to go to school, and then the government gives them a $10K voucher, what is to stop the private school from making tuition $25K? Then the poor and lower middle class still cannot afford the private school. The school gets new fancy things and maybe pays their teachers a little better than before. Don’t you think that could be the result. Plus, will the voucher be more than the amount the person pays in taxes? Or, is it based on the actual amount the school gets per child? So, my friend gets $13K per child and only pays $4K in property taxes a year?

@Jaxk One of the plethora of reasons I rave about Trump and very high on the list is the fact that you will never see a more graphic or blazingly brilliant lesson on the failure of public education than the accepted viability of Donald J. You wouldn’t think an education necessary to spot or assess the glaring abscesses in character or integrity, but clearly there is a crisis regarding judgement and empirical reasoning.

@JLeslie – Your trying too hard. Everyone pays taxes and everyone has an opportunity to get educated. It is only that the education they are currently getting is sub par. If the private school raises their price per student less people will opt for private and send to public school. Public school will improve because there will be smaller class sizes and they want the money. That’s how competition works. A kid is only in school for 13 years while taxes are for a lifetime. For instance, my son went to public school for 6 years but I have paid property tax for 50 years and I’m not done yet. I think I’ve paid for his education.

@stanleybmanly – You don’t like Trump because you don’t think he’s a nice guy. I like him because he accomplished a lot of good things. OK we disagree. You want a nice guy for President, you got him in Biden (debatable). Biden is driving the country down the tubes but thump you chest because you got what you wanted. I only hope we survive this mess he’s created.

@Jaxk Vouchers will help private schools flourish. Don’t you think? So, the people left behind in public schools will have subpar schools most likely, it won’t necessarily put pressure on public schools to improve, it might do just the opposite.

Look around the world, the best educated children are in countries with strong public systems.

One thing that is not being addressed at all is that many of the kids that are failing in our schools just. don’t. care. You could send these kids to the best schools in the world and they still wouldn’t care. And no one is urging them, enticing them, or forcing them to care. One of the problems is the No Child Left Behind rules and mentality. When I was growing up, it was still possible to flunk a grade and be held back. Do that enough and you are just dropped or you quit because it is embarrassing to be in a class with kids 3 or 4 years younger than yourself. But holding kids back wasn’t just an offhand thing. Those kids didn’t get to that point without anyone knowing. Parents were notified and parent/teacher conferences were held. Problems were attempted to be identified and solutions created. Tutoring, summer school, etc were all on the table. But the keys here are that (a) there were parents that gave a shit and (b) there were consequences for screwing around. Public schools have pretty much eliminated (b). (a) has been disappearing for quite a while now. More and more parents seem to want the schools to do everything without the parent having to do anything. And the kids see the impact of doing nothing and realize there is no down side to not trying.

@Jaxk Get real. Biden hasn’t been President long enough for there to be a “mess he has created”. And my complaint is not about nice guys or bums. It is about a man with dictatorial ambitions who can barely read or write. A man who knows less about the country he was elevated to lead than the dog on my porch. The thought that such a man with the integrity of sewage might nevertheless be a brilliant manipulator of some of us is a truly terrifying prospect, and the sort of crisis in perception unthinkable in an educated populace.

@seawulf575 I fear the problems with schools and learning are mere reflections of the unraveling of the society at large. For one thing, there have been shifts in societal norms that dictate deteriorating standards, and I do not believe them avoidable. For example, we look increasingly to the schools to provide functions we formerly reserved to extended families and communities which are no longer the norm. When we were growing up, we didn’t realize it, but you could readily gauge which kids likely to prosper in life simply by walking through their homes to notice which houses held any books. Or consider the fact that today a woman can (and in fact must) obtain a decent job on par with that of a man. So what are the chances of any kid these days coming across a brilliant or inspirational teacher? And as far as that goes, who in their right mind would choose teaching these days as the prospect for earning a decent living?

@stanleybmanly I think the universe just jiggled a little because I am pretty much in agreement with you.

@seawulf575 @stanleybmanly I also have said that no child left behind misses the mark. The emphasis is on the first few years of education when our biggest problems are seen in the last 6 years. Secondary school is when kids really start to hate school for a whole variety of reasons.

I think holding kids back in early elementary grades is very different than what happens later on. K-2 some kids just aren’t able to learn as quickly or sit still for such a long time, and holding them back lets them catch up in development. Slow to learn to read or sit still is not much of any indication for how well a student will do long term in my opinion.

As much as I think parental involvement is important, I think the most important part of parenting is that children feel loved, safe, encouraged to seek their interests, and that parents provide a good example. Some parents in America have very little education, don’t speak English well, don’t read well, and still they can encourage their children in school. It is up to the school to provide a good environment for learning, good teachers, and a good academic program. My father and his peers did very well in school because the school opportunity was very good, not because their parents were educated or on top of them about school work. Most of his peers had immigrant parents working long hours and he and his friends were on their own in school and after school. I think a lot of us have parents who had similar situations. I had a similar situation.

There are many good public schools across America. We need to raise up the ones that are subpar.

By the way, last I looked only 10% of students go to private K-12 in the country. If you really want to affect the next generation, it makes sense to improve our public schools that need improvement.

@JLeslie Your description of parental involvement is close to mine. Parents can encourage and should encourage children. They should also ensure the children are taking their education seriously. The school is supposed to provide the good environment for learning, good teachers, and good academic programs. However it is still up to the parents to monitor those things and step in when they are lacking. I was well known at all the schools my kids attended because I would introduce myself to the office staff and would meet with each of the teachers my kids had. And when one of my kids would come home with a complaint about school, I could and would easily step in to help resolve things. And it can be all sorts of things.
I had one teacher that was torturing her 5th grade history class. She was making them write a report on Monday night, Tuesday night, Wednesday night with a big report due on Friday. My daughter was spending hours each night trying to write these silly reports. I made time to talk to the teacher. She was frustrated. She had been teaching for a long time and had come to the idea that the only way to get kids to catch on to history was to make them write all the reports. I asked her if the kids were learning and she admitted they weren’t. I suggested a way to teach that made it fun. She was interested and tried it. Two weeks later I checked in with her and she was excited again. Her class was showing a lot of enthusiasm and the grades were skyrocketing.
The point is, the curriculum wasn’t bad, the learning environment was good, but the teacher was stymied. It took a parent to go in to tweak things a little to improve them. Without the parent, the kids would have continued to brew progressively bad attitudes

But looking at the problem, clearly the situation with the schools coincides with marked conditions overall. Compulsory education in this country and the public schools was decried as flagrant socialism upon their establishment in this country. As with ALL things progressive, it took beating conservatives in their hard heads to convince them that their factories might he better serviced by workers who could read and write, and farmers who could add and subtract. Unlike those days of yore, we tend to forget that the public schools, just like the public roads are an investment in ALL of us. While the great truth is that the well heeled will ALWAYS have access to superlative opportunities for education, this is clearly not the case for those without means. And this unfortunately is a label increasingly defining US overall. This is now such a critical truth due to the way our schools are funded that currently the quality of schools drives real estate prices in districts as assuredly as pricey real estate assures quality schools. The consequences of this have been devastating on rural schools, rustbelt schools, and schools in the cities. In this city, since the 80s as the city gentrified, I watched as the wealth accumulated and people with children fled the unaffordable city in droves with the result being a city with more money than God and littered with dozens of vacant school properties. Even the Catholic schools have shut down in droves to be leased out as “private” academies for the privileged. The remaining public schools are in effect parking places for the children of the poor, the residents of the projects and public housing, kids whose situation and stresses at home render them all but uneducable. It is a dystopian situation that must be witnessed to be believed, and not one bit resembling the realities of my youth.

@stanleybmanly I have to wonder about that. My grandfather never got past 8th grade. Yet he worked on the railroad for years. He could read and write, but wasn’t college educated by any means. Yet he was very productive. Economy had nothing to do with it. In fact, he was a young man during the Great Depression and managed just fine. So to try saying public education was necessary because it helped the factory workers is a bit disingenuous.
As for the difference between the haves and the have-nots, that is partially true. You can, if you are wealthy, afford to send your kids to an upscale school…that is true. But even if you aren’t, it doesn’t mean your kids have to be subjected to no education or some third rate version of school. I was not a wealthy person. I was a single parent who had to work a job with rotating shift work to make ends meet. Yet I set my priorities as my children and in particular their education. I was engaged. And as a result, my children have grown up to be excellent people that can pretty much accomplish anything they set their minds to.

But your comment about the difference between the rich and the poor brings on another thought. There are many on the left that demonize people of wealth. They are evil, they are the reason things are so screwed up, etc…these are the kinds of comments. Yet you seem to be saying that the schools they attended and to which they are sending their children are somehow better. So if they educate the children into being that which you despise, how can they be better schools? What makes them better?

@seawulf575 Are you seriously asking me the difference between a ticket from Texas Tech and one from Yale? And yes an illiterate man could actually still earn a living in the 30s. My father worked on the railroad and my mother was in civil service most of her working life, and I received an absolute top notch education primarily because they were both educated people who truly understood its advantages. Thus both of my children are products of elite schools from the ground up, and I by no means apologize for it. My grandson now roams the grounds at Cornell and I’m so proud of him I could pop. But my point is that my entire line is a product of a time when it was actually possible to realize the American dream. I’m set and allowed to more or less see to it that my descendants are set. This is by no means a signpost of the current middle class in a society where that class is stretched and shrinking and its public schools in decline. You make the mistake of defining liberalism as hatred (that word again) of millionaires. I have NO criticism of individuals as millionaires. What I take issue with is your inability to see just how superficial is the pretense that they play the same game as yourself. I don’t blame Gates or Musk and particularly myself for picking up the free money. But I’m telling the rest of you that you’re being screwed. There’s only a hair’s difference between that money and me physically picking your pocket. The only difference is that the government does it for me. And I can claim as I’m sure Gates and Bezos surely will concur I didn’t set the rules. The system is so obviously set up to favor wealth that it actually astonishes me that there are conservatives who believe it as they are robbed in broad daylight.

@stanleybmanly I am asking you if the schools that crank out the elite and the wealthy are really good if that is what they are doing? I mean, after all, isn’t wealth inequality one of the evils? So aren’t those things that contribute to it bad by definition?

So you suggest that the elite schools be dumbed down to match the average?

On the discussion about school vouchers: School vouchers are not a proven strategy for improving student achievement

(The report is published by a think tank rather than a journal, but it’s freely available, whereas the articles in journals are usually not. It provides an accurate summary of the research around voucher programs, as well as a brief peek at the greater discussion of school reform. At best, voucher programs provide weak positive effects paired with other negative effects. There are more effective, less costly interventions that do not potentially undermine the tremendous good the public education system does provide despite its flaws/problems. As the article puts it, advocacy for voucher programs is based in ideology, not evidence.)

@sadiesayit And yet there is evidence it works. Look at Sweden. They basically use a nationwide voucher program for their education. Their education is good compared to ours. I would suggest that the exact opposite of your statement is true: that advocacy for public schools is based on ideology and not evidence.

@stanleybmanly You really aren’t that bright, are you? How about instead of “dumbed down” and trying to make a statement that isn’t there, you think…what are they teaching? It isn’t the same curriculum if those that graduate go on to be the evil of the world, right? Or are you finally admitting that the public schools ARE dumb?

@seawulf575 An article for you about Sweden https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.pbs.org/newshour/amp/education/is-sweden-proof-that-school-choice-doesnt-improve-education

@seawulf575 Thank you on your concern for my failing intellect. And let me assure you that I am just bright enough not to confuse success with evil. That is certainly the sort of brilliance that escapes me. But here’s the deal: If you assume that life is a game, wouldn’t you think the purpose of education is to train individuals to succeed in that game? If success is evil, is the fault with the trainer, the champions or the way the game is designed? In other words, if you set the rules such that the game must have winners and losers, and the only way to win the game is to drive the losers into the dirt, is the flaw with the winners, the trainers or the rules? And here’s something I want you really to consider and think about concerning vouchers, public and private schools in a capitalist society. Since the game DEMANDS winners and losers, can there ever be enough vouchers to guarantee ALL contestants superior training? In THIS society you are NOT going to get around the fact that as with EVERYTHING in it, a superior education is a product for sale.

@seawulf575 Will these private schools have federal or state oversight regarding what they are teaching?

@JLeslie This is a wonderful video documentary about Sweden. They talk about the history from free market to socialism to current day. Part of that discussion is about their schools.

@stanleybmanly It is the left and the Dems that scream about income inequality, the greed of the rich, the evils of privilege and a whole gamut of other things along these lines. Your statement is that rich people get to send their kids to rich schools…just like they went to. So if these schools are cranking out people that all follow that same vein of evil (as described by Dems/Leftists), then isn’t it fair to say their curriculum is different from public schools in a bad way? And if that is the case, isn’t it fair to say that public schools are better than private schools? Or are you, once again, trying to argue both sides of the coin? Public schools are worse than private schools but the education from the private schools is worse than the public?

@seawulf575 I’ll have to watch later since it is so long. I do know Sweden is extremely capitalistic even though it is heavy in social systems. Hmmmm. Funny how that can be combined isn’t it? Did you read my link?

I do wonder who are you trying to help with the argument for vouchers? All children? Minority children? Middle class parents who want their children to go to private school? Do you think about who gets hurt and helped? Do you want poor children to have access to equal and good public school education paid by people who have more money?

@seawulf575. Forget good and evil. Those are YOUR words. I think the system is unfair, though I clearly benefit from it. One of the things that makes the system unfair is that the schools of the rich better equip those with money to cope with the system and thus perpetuate and increase their advantage. Whether that is evil or not, I will leave up to you. But you cannot expect me to tell you that a better education is evil.

@JLeslie I did read your link. There are some points made, but I also think it was conclusions that went in search of support. They show that when the voucher system took over the grades of children skyrocketed well above pretty much every other European country. But over the past 20 years of so, they dropped off and the article tried attributing that to the voucher system.
The increase in grades CAN be attributed to the voucher system which is about the only thing that changed at that time. But there are many, many reasons that the grades dropped off. I suspect the voucher system is about the last reason for the drop off. All the schools would have to fail the same amount at the same time which seems really unlikely. There are likely other, more reasonable options for why things dropped off.

@stanleybmanly good and evil are the choices given by the left. Being wealthy has become a negative in this country from the viewpoint of the lefties. Wealthy people are blamed for every wrong in the country. You, yourself, just stated that the discrepancies between rich and poor is unfair AND you stated the private schools of the rich perpetuate that discrepancy.

So my questions remain. If these schools perpetuate the discrepancies, doesn’t that make their curriculum worse than the public schools? Worse for society?

@JLeslie I’m not targeting any particular group with my support for vouchers. But think about it…it creates competition between schools. If a school is not performing well and students are not learning, then giving them the option to move to a better school makes sense.

But this all only works if the schools are allowed to choose their own curriculums (given very basic goals) and must be allowed to choose their own rules for discipline. AND parental involvement is an absolute must.

“Good and evil” are religious concepts.

@seawulf575 Examine our conversation or any other argument we have ever had. Then tell me when have you EVER seen me pronounce the rich as evil or wicked. And I did NOT state ANYWHERE that ANY school perpetuates wealth inequality. Remember “guns don’t kill people”, people do? How about “Elite schools don’t buy the politicians, people do”.

@seawulf575 Competition does not exist in all school districts. Rural areas don’t have much choice. Many families don’t have a way to get their kids to schools outside of their district or to a private school. If a private school company takes over a community then what? They have a monopoly in that area.

Great deal. Money from the government is like a sure thing. More and more private schools will start popping up.

@JLeslie Competition would still exist in rural areas to an extent. Businesses vying for the contracts for the education business would have to compete against one another to get the contracts. In that video I cited on Sweden, the companies that want to provide education or healthcare have to present their bids that include costs, services, etc. for consideration. The state then looks at the options and either chooses the best or makes counter offers to ensure they are getting the service that meets their needs at a cost they can afford. And if more an more private schools pop up that means that there is more competition. And parents then get to have more choices. But remember, this isn’t like a school pops up and the government just starts handing them money. The money is tax money that follows the child. If a child is going to school A and the parents decide school B is better, then when the child moves, the money moves from A to B.
Another service that might be included or that could be an entirely different company would be one that provides transportation for the schools.

@seawulf575 I know how it works. I’m not in favor of funding religious schools with tax money. I don’t think the intention is to make public schools better, it is to pull money out of the public system. Something like 75% of schools are public, there is plenty of competition within the system if that’s what you’re concerned about.

Edit: Try to imagine you live in a country that is 75% Hindu or 75% Muslim or 75% Jewish and the country is supposed to have separation of church and state and freedom of religion and protections for children to be raised religiously as their parents see fit, and people want to take money out of the secular schools into private schools. Some communities in the country are 95% the majority religion and your kids are Christian.

@JLeslie The concern about religious impacts seems contradictory. If I am Christian and there are Muslim schools or Hindu schools, and I didn’t want to send them there, I wouldn’t have to. I could send them to a Christian school or a secular school and deal with the religious education myself. Most people don’t rely on the schools to teach their kids religion anyways. The school choice gives that option of choice. “Public” schools remove that choice. They can teach whatever they want and the parents have very little options. And with the current atmosphere, those schools can give preferential treatment to specific religious groups. But the parents are often not even consulted.
So do you want the option of avoiding religious indoctrination or not? The choice is to give parents a choice…or not.

Here’s why the Swedish model would NEVER get off the ground here and why there is no chance in hell it will ever work in the United States. And that is simply that you cannot turn a profit as a private school through providing a top notch education at an affordable price in the United States. Why? Let’s start with teachers in Sweden. If I live in Sweden, and am gifted, I am allowed to choose teaching as a career. My salary is NOT crucial, because I am guaranteed great healthcare, a fantastic pension, free child care, no matter WHAT I do for a living. That is NOT the way it works in the United States. Over here, it’s ALL about money. Here, the only incentives to being a teacher are the BENEFITS that ONLY the governments will pay. Here, though nobody says it out loud, teaching is a career for suckers. It’s a job that requires years of advanced education that pays what you can earn driving a garbage truck. Charter schools may sound like a good idea, but not in a country where the bottom line drives EVERYTHING.