I don’t think “everyone is on the same page.” I think many people see it as a necessary measure, perhaps poorly carried out. Some fewer might think that staying in longer would have made for a better outcome (it’s hard to see how.) And I think that many Republican politicians see it as an “Aha!” that they can use to attack Biden on.

@janbb True. And many people I’ve encountered who are critical of the withdrawal are adamant that they did not support prolonging the war, but felt that the withdrawal was poorly carried out. And it’s clear that many in the White House did not expect the Taliban to take over so quickly. But the more I press some of these people, the more it becomes clear that it isn’t just about the way the withdrawal was carried out, but the recognition that nothing significant was accomplished in 20 years, that the deaths of soldiers were “for nothing”, the reality that this was an occupation with no end in sight and it would’ve been more “convenient” to simply maintain things as they were.

@Demosthenes I’m not sure what you mean by maintain things as they were? Do you mean that the US should have stayed in or that we never should have gone there? I believe we never should have gone to war there and that yes, the 20 years were a waste.

@janbb Staying in. Even though withdrawing was popular with the American people, it’s the idea of leaving and ending a 20-year war that held the appeal, not the reality of the Taliban taking over (which from everything I understand, was inevitable given our inability to produce anything other than a hapless, unpopular government that could never have stood up to the Taliban). Maybe we could’ve done a better job evacuating certain people before this chaos, but certain hard truths about this withdrawal wouldn’t have changed.

I agree with you.

No. Nothing so trivial.

If Repubs are so concerned about women, they should start at home. In Texas they are trying to criminalize abortion. Concern about women? Don’t think. As far as refugees are concerned, I’d bet they have as much concern for Afghan refugees as they do for Latino migrants here at home, on the Border. Politics as usual, a dog and pony show.

I’m sure some of the outrage is pure political feeding frenzy. Biden is bleeding and the usual sharks are circling.

As an independent voter I expect both parties to take turns screwing the country and the Constitution, and for most elected leadership to hide from serious responsibility. So far no surprises. But beyond the typical partisan games, this thing is a fucking humanitarian disaster. And not only for Afghans.

The latest word from the Pentagon is that “We don’t have the capability to go out and collect large numbers of people,” trying to evacuate. “It’s obvious we’re not close to where we want to be.” Followed by the State Department’s security alert to over 10,000 Americans stranded accross the country : THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT CANNOT ENSURE SAFE PASSAGE TO THE HAMID KARZAI INTERNATIONAL AIRPORT.

Nice work Joe.

Expect things to get worse – And the excuses to get more absurd.

Any excuse to dump on Biden.

I think they’re freaking out over the mass exodus from Kabul Airport. I’m kind of freaking out myself.

At least no one can logically dump the blame on Biden. ANY president would have caught the shit splatter from THIS fan.

This is just one more chapter in the 2500 year old conflict of the East vs the West
It’s not over yet.
It’s funny how people ignore history.
Oh well.

Yes

I am friends with a number of vets who were there.
Amongst them, people who saw the people and environment first hand, there are differing attitudes.
Mingling the strongest feelings from each viewpoint, this is what I see.

The people are settled in primitive lifestyle, attitude, learning. They have lived in the same ways for more generations than we can count. There are those who can’t wrap their brains around change. Others see benefit to modernization, and feel excited by the prospect of benefitting from certain moves forward. Even those people though, are internally conflicted about how to mesh ancient ways with progress. Very few will fight, even to provide safety for their families. Others, are divided over fighting with people who can help them modernize, and not fighting against people more closely tied to their long standing ways.
I will include some video links, one being a man trying to convince a village the advantage of tractor versus hand farming.

The people want advancement, at least in some things, but the chasm between their existence and ours is incomprehensibly deep and wide.

A big issue over the handling of the withdrawal is the equipment left behind. Military advisers know better than to have left such grabs for the taliban, but their warnings were ignored. That very issue makes extraction all the more dangerous.

Efforts are in the works, but the methods are hindered.

Tractors
This one is eleven years old.

More recently
Notice the change, this is over three years ago.

Improved irrigation

So changes have been taking place, but imagine how it must be. Remember people who had to learn online activity, and smartphones from their kids? So, there are people who want to be safe, but don’t want to leave home. Sorting all the details would have been better served if timetables had allowed for more planning.

I really didn’t believe Biden would actually pull out. It’s the best thing any US president has done in my lifetime (and the best achievement he’s had in his ridiculously long political career). The blame for the clusterfuck lies squarely on the military leadership and intelligence. They’ve had 20 years to plan the extraction and instead have been exploiting the war for personal gain.

It’s not like this exit was a surprise. We should have done a much better job extracting our equipment, and given safe-haven to all those who aided the US instead of abandoning them.

I can’t stand Biden. He’s done a lot to hurt the middle class over his career (not to mention sexually assaulting his staffer), but he just took a big step in the right direction.

I think initially most people regardless of party were worried about Americans still in the country, women in the country, and the Aghani people who had been helping the US.

Now, Fox News and the terrorists on our social media have had time to decide how they can politicize it, and they have a photo of a military jet crowded full of refugees with captions asking “do you want these people being let out next to your house?” Or, some derivative thereof. The Republicans are all over Biden, it’s a serious political problem for the Democrats I think.

I saw a couple Trumper friends on social media posting about saving the Christians in the country, which I agree get them out, all religious minorities are in danger in my opinion, but what’s annoying is that’s just an offshoot from the constant messages that Christians in the world, including the US, are under attack, and I take real issue with that regarding the US. No they aren’t!

White Christians are the least likely to suffer any sort of violence or hate crime associated with their religion and no one is inhibiting their ability to practice their religion. It’s all made up bullshit when it comes to America, but where it really does happen in the world it helps feed the American Evangelical paranoia.

Anyway, the situation is being manipulated in social media and cable and the propaganda machine is in full swing now.

I wouldn’t call it Biden’s withdrawal as the “deal” with the Taliban was worked out by the previous administration 18 months ago. There was little opposition to it at that time and few questioned the wisdom of doing a deal with the enemies of the government you are there to support. Looking back, it is unsurprising that the morale of the Afghan government and its forces collapsed.

There is no opposition to withdrawal now. It is too late for that. All that is left is the shame you feel when you let down your friends and abandon them to a horrifying situation. It goes beyond American party politics; it is a failure of democracy that has left us in a situation that is satisfactory to no one but the architects of 9/11 and our enemies.

@Demosthenes: “Do you think all the opposition to Biden’s withdrawal from Afghanistan is purely out of concern for women and refugees?”

We know it can’t be. This isn’t something we have to mill over. People who advocate the murder of women and refugees who suddenly feign support for these people over explicitly political reasons can be ignored.

As for the issue of ending an occupation? It is good. If you want to pretend to be interested in the welfare of others (including women), start by ending US imperialism.

From what I’m hearing it’s several factors:
Many are pissed that we left our advanced military equipment, and the enemy is posting pics with it.
Vets are pissed so many died there to just give it all up.
Yes women, children and Christians are targets of that regime and women are already being forced to be Taliban wives, give up school or go anywhere without a male chaperone.
Many military also believe that this has jeopardized US security at home.

Biden said the buck stops with him, right or wrong, and I do respect that.

@KNOWITALL I saw that too. Clips of people upset their brothers in arms or relatives died in Afghanistan. Were they not upset before? All this time they thought it was worth while until this moment when we pulled out of the country? Trump negotiated the deal to leave no matter if people question how Biden executed it. Were the same people saying the same about the people who died when they first found out we were leaving Afghanistan?

It is a polarizing event no matter what.

Resembles the fall of Saigon.

I only hope we can learn from it. We did the same thing related to Korea and Vietnam.

IMHO we should not have been there in the first place. shy of that, we should have drawn down after bin Laden met his maker.

@Forever_Free Many similarities to the fall of Saigon.

Most of the Vietnamese-American community is watching this unfold with a lot of heartache.

@JLeslie I am not military so I decline speaking for them. They are all over the internet literally broken right now.

@JLeslie That’s kind of what I’ve been getting at. Everything was fine until the moment we withdrew? I don’t think that was truly the mindset. I think the grim reality of what withdrawal means and what it would have meant regardless if it was done now or five years ago or five years from now is just setting in. It’s not easy to acknowledge that we were there for 20 years and didn’t really have a clear strategy or objective. This reality could be ignored as long as the war was to continue indefinitely at a low level.

@Forever_Free The only thing we learned from Vietnam was to have a volunteer army. We otherwise seem to have learned very little from it. I won’t be surprised if history continues to repeat itself…

War is all about the dicks.

I have seen interviews in the past with military families who changed their tune about decisions to go to war when their child or sibling was killed. It was a few years after 9/11, mostly focused on Iraq. It’s like they didn’t realize people sometimes get physically or mentally harmed during war, or killed.

I knew people who signed up with the army shortly after 9/11 and they had no worries about risks, they all talked about seeing the world and learning skills.

You might remember I grew up interacting with our military all the time. My dad was a commissioned officer in the uniformed services, and we love the military life and family. It’s wonderful to serve the country and great perks come with the service, but I don’t understand not knowing the risks during a time of war.

To be clear my father was not in the armed forces, but he had military rank and benefits.

It’s political. One of the many typical Republican tactics where they put the country on a path during a Republican administration, and then complain about the results they caused during a Democratic administration.