Absolutely not! Public transportation should be (and could very easily be) completely free for everyone. We should be humiliated and outraged that it is not.

Jumping the turnstile is a moral act. Reporting them is reprehensible.

I might want to start jumping them also. But I know I wouldn’t, but it would make me a little disappointed if I have to pay and they don’t. Completely free would be nice :)

Well, you might be a bad person if you didn’t.

@janbb lmao! Too funny!

Metro management and station managers probably already know. There are cameras everywhere!

Management knows but it’s more trouble to confront them over the few dollars they’re losing by not getting the fair.

It kind of reminds me of how some stores have a policy now where they don’t contront people who steal. They just let them walk out the door with the merchandise. I was told by a store employee that they can be sued for confronting thieves, in addiition to possibly being injured.

I agree with @hat

Quick! Where is my defibrillator?

There should be easy access to fertile criminal locations.

Would you be OK if you owned a business or store and allowed shoppers or employees to let the goods walk out the door?

I would say something to the turnstile jumpers. I commuted via train for many years as a monthly pass holder.
It is a bit frustrating when you pay $500 per month for your pass and you see others scam the system by jumping or not paying because you know the conductor.

@Forever_Free: “Would you be OK if you owned a business or store and allowed shoppers or employees to let the goods walk out the door?”

And that has something to do with this how? If someone jumps the turnstile and makes it onto a train, what exactly are they stealing, who are they stealing it from, and what are the implications?

@Forever_Free: “It is a bit frustrating when you pay $500 per month for your pass and you see others scam the system by jumping or not paying because you know the conductor.”

You were the one being scammed by being charged $500 for something that should be a free public good. Getting angry at someone for not getting scammed is petty and pretty fucking pathetic.

Keep in mind that we should be doing everything in our power to encourage people to use public transportation. Our planet depends on it. Also, things like this, which should be completely free, are regressive taxes.

On the one hand, they’re breaking the law.

On the other hand, it’s an enforcement thing. If you have some policeman on the turnstiles, then the policeman won’t near the tracks protecting people from being pushed in front of the subway or bus, or from being mugged.

What’s the balance? $1.50 fare versus people being mugged and killed?

And even if you catch a fare jumper, you have to wait for the police to arrest him and cart him away. That’s a low prioirty offense for any police department.

The US should do what Europe does – charge fares, no turnstiles, and random checking of passengers on transit, with stiff penalties if they don’t have a ticket.

As for feeling resentful because people are getting for free what I would be paying for, I would remind myself that I’m doing the right thing, they’re not. Stealing is wrong, paying is appropriate.

In stores, same thing. I’m paying for what it’s appropriate to pay for. Stealing and doing smash and grabs is not legal and not appropriate. If stores don’t enfoce their anti-theft measures, that’s on them.

Honestly, I was astounded when I found out from my friends who work in stores that their stores policies (these are big national chain stores, one a home “fix it” store and one a department store), are “hands off” thieves. Don’t follow them, don’t confront them, just let them walk out the door. i found that shocking, but then looking at it like if the employee confronts the thief in the parking lot and gets stabbed for doing so, is it worth it for the employee who is making minimum wage or a bit more than minimum? Risk your life for a few hundred dollars in merch, in exchange for $15 per hour? $15 per hour is minimum here in NY/CT. Midweest, it’s half that.

If a person jumps a turnstile it’s called ‘theft of services.’ In NYC you get a ticket
not arrested. But shockingly many many who are stopped while jumping turnstiles
in NYC have warrants, carry weapons etc.

Here is the problem @hat has with this. Criminals will get caught! Hat and Alvin Bragg,
Manhattan D.A. have such disdain for victims (as leftists head nodders) weather they be
black or white. This coddling the criminals has become so severe, minorities who
live in poor neighborhoods are suffering the most. And get killed the most.

@hat It is the principal. I take it you have never commuted a distance on trains or public transportation based on your answer.

My $500 a month for my commute on a train to Boston is a fair fare.
If I did it in my car it would be about $800—$900 for just gas and parking. This does not include the wear and tear on my vehicle and the time stuck in traffic causing pollution.

So YES, I would call out a turnstile jumper for taking a ride and not paying.

@Forever_Free: “It is the principal”

You’re right – it is the principle. Playing cop for people jumping a turnstile is reactionary, anti-environment, and classist.

@Forever_Free: “I take it you have never commuted a distance on trains or public transportation based on your answer.”

I commuted via the T and commuter rail for many years here in MA. What does that have to do with your principled stance against the environment and poor people? I love how the right-wing mindset always manifests as resentment that is directed down. There is injustice happening here – but it’s not the few people jumping a turnstile.

This really bothers me! I love our NYC subway, but it seems like every day
there is something in the news about a viscous attack in the subway system,
or somewhere in my city.

@WhyNow: Every day in NYC, now, there are multiple attacks. Did you see the driving instructor who was jumped yesterday when he went to work early and decided to take a walk? Did you see the mom who drowned her three little children yesterday or the day before? Plus every day there are hit and runs in NYC – it seems they’re usually in Queens or Brooklyn, but sometimes Manhattan or Bronx.

`@WhyNow – “leftist head nodders” – at least you have made your position clear.

^Yes you are manifestly astute.

@jca2 I have the answer! Let’s defund the police. It might be time to move… but
trump destroyed the blooming planet Mars, where would I go?

@WhyNow: I do agree with you on that one. NYC is now a lawless hellhole.

^You are in Jersey? Can you rent me a room? I have my own chef.

@WhyNow: I’m about an hour n of NYC. The news I get on TV is NYC news.

@jca2 You are very kind. In 2020 my family bought designed and decorated an
apartment for me on Amsterdam ave within sight of Lincoln center. I get a chef
three times a week, my sisters’ head of household three times a week (to make sure
I eat) fresh cut flowers once a week, vice coach, boxing trainer in the buildings gym,
it never ends. But Iridium is steps away and has great music, also a movie theater…
I am in a bubble! And I need to be a short frenetic drive from teterboro airport.

@WhyNow: I didn’t say you I would rent you a room so don’t call me kind lol.

@hat This has nothing to do with right-winged mindsets. As you stated you also commuted also on MBTA run lines, then you know the issues were financial and not some political stance.

If you want to open a question up about accessibility for low income, I am happy to respond to that questions. Else, I answered the OP as asked.

@Forever_Free: “This has nothing to do with right-winged mindsets.”

What else would you call it? You’re punching down. You’re mad that someone might “steal” a ride on public transportation. “I paid for it, why shouldn’t they!?” How about directing your resentment at the fact that your planet is being destroyed and there are people who oppose making public transportation free? How about not tacitly supporting a regressive tax on something as critical as public transportation?

@Forever_Free: ” As you stated you also commuted also on MBTA run lines, then you know the issues were financial and not some political stance.”

Taking right-wing economic positions is political.

So, again, I ask you: what exactly does someone steal when they jump a turnstile? And how exactly does that affect you? Do you think it’s possible you are misdirecting your resentment? You insinuate that this has something to do with fairness. However, if it were, there is no way turnstile jumpers would be part of your fairness equation.

Things don’t get more clear than this.

^ In NYC It’s called theft of services. If you tell the police in the subway or a bus
driver that you have no money or if you are handicap they will always let you
board. Your concern is not about the poor or handicap, your concern is the criminals!

You don’t even care about know nothing do nothing politicians like AOC who
could find ways to fund MTA and make transit free. To know what you care about
we need look no further then your avatar.

I tried to figure why there is so so much hate by such as you, foolishly.
As it is I get moded for a lot less.

@hat I am not mad at all. Don’t put words in my mouth. There is not resentment either. I am also fine with working towards a resolution. I do support this and many other measures.

Don’t be so small minded that it is just one jumper and it has no effect on me or others. If you oppose the type of system, what is it you are doing about it? How about putting this kind of energy into a forum that helps the cause.

It’s my opinion that it is not fair for people to jump the turnstile. There is no evidence that turnstile jumping is a crime of poverty or an Economic issue.

Yet, If we start saying it’s alright for you to jump the turnstile, we are creating an environment where any and everything goes. It’s a crime. Now, you can defer prosecution, you can put people in programs, you could do all sorts of things, but let’s not ignore it, and that’s what’s happening to our subway systems

@Forever_Free: “It’s my opinion that it is not fair for people to jump the turnstile.”

I’d love to see your fairness calculation here. I’m serious.

@Forever_Free: “There is no evidence that turnstile jumping is a crime of poverty or an Economic issue.”

You really think everyone can afford the fare? This is what we’re talking about. Public transportation in MA is a regressive tax. Someone who makes minimum wage pays the same fee as someone who makes $300k. By definition, this puts a far greater burden on the poor and working class. So, if you’re talking about fairness, we have to start there.

@Forever_Free: “Yet, If we start saying it’s alright for you to jump the turnstile, we are creating an environment where any and everything goes.”

Yes, we’ve all heard the “law and order” right-wing arguments. “You might not agree with the law, but it is the law. Allowing someone to violate the law leads to chaos, etc.” But what if the law is unjust? What if breaking a particular law doesn’t hurt anyone? What if breaking that law actually has benefits to society?

You’re pulling a “welfare queen” argument together to justify calling the cops on someone trying to get onto public transportation.

@hat Thanks for your dialogue and opinions.

@jca2 Got another story. Released without jail. After all, no one was killed.
Do you think that just letting go means… try harder.
https://nypost.com/2022/09/18/mcdonalds-ax-attack-suspect-michael-palacios-freed-without-bail/

Since the turnstiles are in open public view and there is no expectation of privacy when using the system…
What would happen if the transit authority installed high resolution cameras at face level that took pictures of turnstile jumpers AND they published the pictures with time and date on their Facebook, Twitter, Insta, etc. pages?
Taking it a step further, they could offer a reward to anyone who identifies the jumper. The picture would be taken down from the site when the jumper pays a $20, or $50, or some other value fine for theft of services.
The reward would be ⅓ of the collected fine. ⅓ would go to administration of the system and ⅓ to the Transit authority for operating expenses or cleaning.

It would be easy to test if this scheme works. For one month, data would be collected to quantify the average number of jumpers. They could follow that with a one month ad campaign explaining how the new system will be implemented at key stations, how pictures will be posted, and how helpful users will be rewarded for providing information about the jumpers.
The reward could be in the form of cash or a metro card with twice the value of the cash reward..

Transit authority can then track the number of jumpers again and see if the ad campaign made a difference.
Then repeat the testing after some people are publicly called out for theft of services. See if it makes a difference.
Try the campaign for 6 months. If things improve, great. if not then the program can be disbanded with very little cash outlay. .

Look how many people know and avoid or shun certain Karens based upon their shamefully rude behavior posted on Twitter.
All things being equal between two job candidates, would you hire the person who regularly jumped the turnstile? Would you date that person? .

If anyone is interested, this is a short read on the why you hold such a right wing position on fare evasion.

@hat Plenty of articles out there to frame it anyway you want it. It is still a morals issue.

@Forever_Free: “It is still a morals issue.”

Sure is. And you’re on the wrong side.

Anyway, I stumbled across this, and thought I’d post it because it is not an article that is framing as much as it is one that is describing the reactionary framing and why it’s so common for normal people to be sucked into it.

People don’t think of themselves as bad people generally, and there is usually a reason why they hold immoral positions like this. It’s puzzling to someone who isn’t dripping with right-wing ideology how one can come to this position. The media certainly plays a large role.

@hat I am not dripping anything. I answered an OP with my opinion. Me thinks you are speaking of yourself when you go off guns blazing and quoting peoples opine with your views.

^ Hating poor people and the environment while preaching law and order is your opinion, and you’re entitled to that. I’m not used to having people proudly declare that though. You, @seawulf, and @WhyNow seem to really own it.

@hat I think you are making some pretty big leaps in your broad condemnation of anyone who is against turnstile jumping. I don’t have a strong opinion on that one way or the way – guess that makes me a liberal in your categories – but I don’t think being against it makes one a fascist.

Your arguments sometimes come across as reductio ad absurdum..

And since it is only the young who are able to turnstile jump, isn’t it ageist to be in favor of it?

@hat But until it is free, it isn’t free and it is stealing.

@janbb: “but I don’t think being against it makes one a fascist.”

Of course not. But holding outright anti-poor positions on something like this is something that should be called out, don’t you think? This is one of the easier things to figure out. When wulfie holds these positions, we understand it. When people who find wulfie or Trump offensive support some of the things that have been said in this thread, there is a disconnect. I posted that last link because that disconnect is not organic. It’s the result of propaganda that people are getting from the media.

@hat When you argue with a hammer, you can’t possibly understand the intricacies of this issue.

This metro has a fare evasion warning campaign. https://www.wmata.com/about/news/Fare-evasion-campaign.cfm