Too few immigrants, which means a labor shortage, which leads to labor shortages and food shortages.

The whole Republican-Trump-Wall push was populist politics.

HA! Good one!

America’s illegal immigration problem actually started in 1492. ;)

Yes. I think conservatives overstate it, but there is a problem. Towns along the border are being FLOODED with volumes they can’t handle. There’s a town in…I think Arizona or New Mexico that’s only 100k people in population that’s being asked to house 250k people while they await hearing on asylum. They don’t have the infrastructure to handle it.

That’s an extreme example, but check this – you’ve heard of southern governors sending illegals to ‘sanctuary cities’ as a political stunt? They sent 10k to New York and the mayor begged them to stop because they can’t handle 10k. A city of 8.8 MILLION couldn’t handle and influx of 10k, and they expect these border towns to double and even triple their population.

I’m a fan of increasing legal immigration, and I’m opposed to nonsense like a border wall and such. But there IS a problem. There is a huge logistics failure.

@Entropy That’s the 2nd time you’ve stated that info. Where’s your link to your source??? I can tell that you believe it, but I’d prefer to see it for myself!!!

Well, yes, but I don’t think it’s something that’s solvable. I think it can be handled better, but if anyone thinks there’s a way to stop people from trying to enter the U.S. illegally, that isn’t going to happen. As long as places like the U.S. and Europe are seen as prosperous alternatives to impoverished and troubled parts of the world, people are going to try and come here, legally or not.

I don’t think there’s a problem with illegal immigration but I do think there is a problem with welcoming and processing all immigrants so that they can be housed temporarily and fed and given hearings for asylum or refugee status that is timely. I think we have done a lousy job of caring for new immigrants for decades and a lot more thought and money needs to be devoted to the issue.

Link @Entropy….

Perfect answer @janbb.

Only with the Republican base. The Republican fat cats have no problem with it. Since they bitch about it 24/7 but do nothing while their cronies hire them in droves for construction projects.

Dumb politics is the problem with illegal immigration in the US.

Yes.

We can’t well handle the quantity of people coming in. We need better ways to process them.

We need to give out more working visas so there are fewer people coming across illegally, or coming across trying to use asylum or coming across on tourist visas all the while planning to work. We need workers! We have a labor shortage in parts of the country. We should be having these people pay the US government a few thousand, not coyotes illegally bringing people over. Let the US arrange flights and safe passage and maybe breakeven financially rather than lose money feeding, housing, and processing new immigrants.

Better coordination (and less politics) between states to take in new immigrants not only from south of the border, but other countries too.

NYC has just declared a “State of Emergency” over the migrant crisis. It’s on the news now. NYC has received over 17,000 migrants since the Spring of 2022. There are two problems with NYC – there is already a huge homeless population, first off, and there’s not a lot of spare space to build new edifices. Yes, they can use empty buildings, but not without great expense (making them handicap accessible, removing asbestos, retrofitting bathrooms, administrative offices, etc.). Plus the buildings’ owners would likely want payment for use of their space.

I understand that border cities are also receiving a lot of migrants and I’m not saying the border cities should have to share the load. There needs to be some way to send migrants to different areas of the country. That said, with the borders open, there’s just a stream of people coming. Who’s paying for it? Can they work in exchange for what they’re given? Do t hey have criminal records or are they escaping the justice system in their countries? Can we afford to pay for room and board for so many new people? Are the people that are coming vaccinated like the rest of people in the US are? I’m not referring to Covid vaccinations, I’m referring to polio and Measles, Mumps, Rubella and everything else that most Americans get in order to attend school.

I’m not saying we can or we can’t afford to pay for the infllux of people, and I’m not going to get into an argument about it, but it’s definitely a problem, in my opinion.

One of my parents is from Mexico so I am not anti-Hispanic but I try to see both sides of this issue. It is definitely complex.

@jca2 You reminded me of a friend of mine, her parents were moved to New Jersey when they came to America from Germany. They were taught farming, I don’t know if they were given free land, or just given jobs farming. I know my friend grew up on a farm, so eventually her parents did own their own land. My friend said that at the time that her parents arrived in America, NYC was overloaded with immigrants coming from Europe, and moving them to NJ was one of the things the government did to help immigrants, and I assume it helped America too, we probably needed farmers. I don’t know if it was done at the state level or federal, or a coordination of both. Her parents were not farmers in Germany, they had to learn the skill. I don’t know what they did in Germany. Her father also was recruited as a Ritchie Boy by the military in the war effort.

I wonder if any coordination is going on to help train the people coming in for skills we need in the US and moving them to states that need new energy. I think there are still states out west trying to lure people to move there to keep some of the towns that are dying alive.

Edit: I meant to say “that the border cities shouldn’t have to shoulder the burden” not that they should have to “share the load.”

The good ol’ war department had somethign to say about that, many many years ago.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vGAqYNFQdZ4

I don’t think there’s an issue with immigration.The issue is and always has been American corruption and misallocation of funds.

They’ve done nothing but listen to rich people slowly over time and a lot of these issues could’ve been mitigated if racism and money in politics wasn’t so rampant.

Absolutely there is an illegal immigration problem in the USA. Tell me what other country on the planet has as many people crossing into their country without proper documentation? We have, by far, the worst case of illegal immigration on the planet. You can try spinning it anyway you want, but it is a fact.

What is the problem with it? Illegal immigration brings a number of issues to a country. First is that they have no control over who enters their country. Might be someone completely harmless, might be a mass murderer…you don’t know. Secondly, they have no control over what is brought into the country. It might be people with good skills and a great work ethic. It might be people looking for an easy hand out. It might be drugs. It might be gangs. It might be human trafficking. Thirdly, ALL illegal immigrants add excess cost to the country from a great number of angles. Fourthly, when illegal immigration becomes the normal instead of the exception, you basically have no borders. Without borders, you have no country.

And really, anyone that says illegal immigration either (a) doesn’t exist or (b) is a good thing, is supporting the crime, violence, human rights violations, and other negatives that comes with it. Every fentanyl death is on your head. Every child raped and sold into sex slavery is on your head. Every crime committed by someone in this country illegally is on your head. And all the excessive costs are on your head. Not to mention you are urging people to undertake an horribly dangerous trek so they can enter this country, all in the hopes it is the rainbows and unicorns you want to make it sound like.

^^^^^^^^ The all immigrants are rapists, murders and criminals logic ! ^^^^^^^^

Might be a Trump quote ?

@Tropical_Willie read it again. I never once said such a thing. But are you denying that drugs, criminals, human trafficking, etc come across the porous border? Maybe Biden thinking?

It seems to me that Italy has had a tremendous problem in recent years with people coming across the ocean from African countries. And other European countries from Syria. Climate change and war make many humans refugees. Population shift is a worldwide issue.

Here’s an article with statistics about refugees. I don’t think US policy has much to do with the issue except for how poorly immigrants have been treated:

https://www.unhcr.org/refugee-statistics/

@janbb Your citation is for refugees and not illegal immigration. There is a difference. And if you look at the major countries these refugees are from, the only one that might even come close to adding to illegal immigration is Venezuela. BTW, that is a socialist nation that showed how great socialism works. A little off topic, but then a lot of the arguments in favor of illegal immigration are based in socialism and communism. So not that far off. But I digress. The country that picks up the majority of the Venezuelans is Columbia. So while there are indeed Venezuelans that are part of the millions of illegals that have entered this country, you can’t say all of them are refugees and you certainly can’t say that all the illegals that enter are refugees.

I don’t know I only hear about it is when you guys are having an election weather it be midterms ,or a presidential then the Republicans use it non stop, how open your southern border is and how many criminals are pouring through.
It’s quite strict at the Northern border, you have to have a valid passport, and show proof of covid vaccination.
Sounds like at the southern border you don’t even have to slow down,they just wave you through at least according to the frightwing mouth pieces.

@SQUEEKY2 Pretty much. When you tell the border security to not engage, when you set up basically welcome centers, people do come. And many are released even if they are stopped. So while you are trying to slam our country, let me ask…why does your country have restrictions like a valid passport and proof of vaccination? That’s so detrimental to all those needy people that are just looking for a better life! Don’t you care about them?

@seawulf575
Are you denying that drugs, criminals, human trafficking, etc come from inside the country? Or that families who are harder working than spoiled entitled Americans are coming from outside the porous border?

The problem with illegal immigration in the US is the hate and fear that Americans feel about illegal immigrants, feelings that lead them to vote for a hateful douchebag, provocateur and sociopath like trump…and continue to support him to the point of destroying US Democratic norms and traditions that have now been exposed as quite fragile and need sensible citizens and politicians to preserve it, not small-minded and opportunistic ones.

Imagine rational well-intentioned US politicians compromising and presenting a real plan to the American people to curb if not totally stop illegal immigration. Imagine voting Americans not getting everything they want in that deal but choose to support it anyway. Americans should get a life. Fix problems not prolong it.

@seawulf575 it’s your country that requires anyone entering your country to have those things plus if you have any kind of criminal record you are denied entry, so why is your country so hard on Canadians yet so soft on the southern border??

How on earth could Canada even monitor who enters the country?

@Dutchess_III
With their elite fast response fighting force, the Mounties, who are fuelled by enriched weapons grade maple syrup and depleted poutine.

Besides, the people coming over the border are colonials, so their presence and position can be accurately measured using seismic sensors.

Canada takes in refugees from countries like Syria and Ukraine in a very orderly and welcoming fashion to the best of my knowledge. But they are not getting the waves of immigrants from South America as we are.

The Canadian border is so vast it would impossible to police it.

If Canada wants to step up and take in people from Latin America, I am sure the US would be happy to share the burden and I’m sure some of the people coming across the border would accept the offer.

@Blackberry Are you really trying to deny that most drugs pour across the border as opposed to being produced here? Yes, drugs are made here. Fentanyl is not. Most of the heroin is not. Most of the marijuana is not, though that might be changing. So yeah, I’m calling out the drug trafficking coming across the border. The human trafficking coming across the border is likewise well documented. Where does the human trafficking start in this country?

As for hard working people, I find it funny that when I call the entitled fools in this country out for being lazy sacks of crap, You and the other lefties on these pages want to call me out for it. They are all hard working people according to people like you. So which is it? Are they spoiled and entitled or are they hard working? As for hard working people that want to enter this country…I’m all for it…legally. Not illegally.

@SQUEEKY2 soooo….Canada doesn’t stop people from entering your country illegally? Is that really what you are claiming?!?

@JLeslie You might be right that the US would be happy to share the burden. However, what you are saying is that we don’t want to actually enforce our immigration laws, we don’t want to secure our border, so we have created a burden that now we think Canada should share.

@seawulf575 LOL. I didn’t say that. Pretty much everyone I know, Republicans and Democrats, think we need a secure border. Very few people are for wide open borders, but there are a few.

My only point was Canada doesn’t welcome everyone with open arms. Canada likes immigrants who bring money into the country, or a skill that Canada needs. Canada does take in refugees; I don’t know how Canada compares to other countries on that account.

You seem fit to say that most immigrants coming into America are thieves, drug cartel, and sex traffickers. That is a miniscule percentage of who is coming across the border. You also seem to be saying America doesn’t have our own home grown criminals committing those same crimes. That’s ridiculous.

Republicans and Libertarians are using the word “criminal” like all crimes are alike. Crossing the border for a better life is not the same as assaulting someone, but Republican leaders use that word criminal so their voters will imagine in their minds the worst type of criminals. It is a word trick.

@seawulf575 where did you get that from????
I wasn’t talking about how hard it is to get into Canada ,I was talking about how hard it is for Canadians to get into the US.
I don’t know how hard it is for illegals to get into Canada we hear nothing about it on the news probably does happen, but how much I have no clue.

What I don’t get is how soft your southern border is that you claim but your northern one is tight??

Most Canadians aren’t sneaking across.

Immigration at the Canadian US border coming into the US isn’t as easy as some might think. I’ve had easier times at airports, and that’s as an American coming into my own country.

@JLeslie No, I don’t think that every illegal immigrant entering this country are thieves, drug cartel or sex traffickers. But let me ask…how many of that “miniscule percentage” that ARE this sort of person does it take to multiply their crimes? If one gets through with a bag of fentanyl that goes on to kill thousands of kids, is that acceptable losses to have a porous border? If only 1000 children per year are brought into this country to be sold as sex slaves, is that acceptable? Please tell me it is because that is what you are arguing. So please, tell me what are acceptable levels of crime and death entering this country all in the effort to keep our borders porous.

@SQUEEKY2 Exactly. You are talking about entering this country and doing so like it is wrong to require visas or proof of vaccination status (during a pandemic) prior to entry. So, is it easier to enter Canada? Does Canada just let anyone walk in and stay in your country. When I try going to Niagara Falls, I have to show an ID, preferably a passport. I even had to show proof my baby was actually mine.

When you start making statements about what is required to enter the US from the north, you are actually supporting my arguments about border control. First, most countries have rules about entering the country. Canada has rules as well. Look them up sometime. While you are going on about how we should take care of those that want to come to our country, see what your country does. Secondly, We have the exact same rules at the southern border as the northern ,but they don’t want to enforce them on the southern border. Why not? Never once have I said immigration is wrong or that we don’t want immigrants. But the difference is legal and illegal. Legal immigration gives us control of the border. Illegal immigration allows whatever and whoever to enter.

@SQUEEKY2 The differences between the southern and northern border of our country is that most people north of the border respect the law about crossing the border. Canada doesn’t have a continent on the other side of their country where people are coming from to cross Canada and enter the US…people with no respect for the law to enter our country. Just like with gun control laws…lawful people obey the laws, criminals don’t.

@seawulf575 Who is buying the sex slaves who are brought into America?

Of course I don’t want street Fentanyl killing people, but we have plenty of people dying from prescribed drugs too. America has a drug problem and we need to not only stop the drugs sold on the street, but also we need to address why people use drugs or why they are trying drugs. I have two friends who lost their sons in their early 20’s to drug overdose, so I do care about the topic.

Are you going to punish 10,000 people who are looking for a better life, hard working, honest people, because one person among them is bringing drugs into the country? We just need to be better about finding the drugs, about finding the criminals.

Giving people papers will make it easier to search their bags, easier to catch people crossing at illegal entry points, because resources for ICE and USCIS can be better utilized. I want to catch MS13, drug smugglers, and people previously deported for felonies as much as you.

Your rhetoric will solve nothing, except maybe keeping Republicans and Libertarians voting for Republicans out of fear, which is traditionally very effective.

Trying to fix how we handle immigration, which includes accepting the US does and will continue to have immigrants coming into the country, seems more effective to me to actually solve some of the very things you are worried about regarding drugs and felons getting into our country.

^^Yup, yup and guess what…yup!

What I was trying to say is why is it so strict to go into the states from Canada, and so lax to go. North into the states from Mexico???

And why do these migrant caravans only seem to be a problem come times of elections?

@JLeslie Who is buying sex slaves in the USA? All sorts of pervs. But if they are not there, they cannot be bought. And you were the one that said they were already coming from the USA. But you did fail to actually back that statement up.

“Are you going to punish 10,000 people who are looking for a better life, hard working, honest people, because one person among them is bringing drugs into the country?” Yes. Why? Because there is much that is inconsistent with your statement. There are plenty of people that are looking for a better life, that are hard working and are honest people coming into this country. They are doing so legally. They are applying for visas and they are coming in per the laws of our country. That is what honest people do. DISHONEST people knowingly violate the law.

As for the ratio of 10,000 to 1, let me point out another ratio: 108,000 to 10,000. 108,000 is the number of people that died from fentanyl overdoses between Feb 2021 and Feb 2022. And lets carry it a little further. Each of those 108,000 had at least 4 people that cared about them. So that brings up the tally to 432,000 people that were harmed by drugs that poured across the border. Are you willing to punish almost half a million people to accommodate the 10,000 you want in here? And that is just Fentanyl.

You just said you had two friends that lost children to drug overdoses. Yet you are not willing to make illegal entry into this country wrong. You are willing to allow anyone in and then try to deal with the damage they do. If you REALLY want to get better at finding the drugs and finding the criminals, you do it before they get across the border. You don’t let them in, detain them briefly (if you even catch them), then turn them loose only to find out later that they shouldn’t have been in this country. Tell the families of the 6 people stabbed in Las Vegas by an illegal alien that you want to stop the criminals but don’t want to solidify the border because you might inconvenience a good person.

@seawulf575 I am saying I want legal entry to be expanded and the border better handled. I am not for wide open borders.

You can’t be serious that you have never heard of teenage American girls running away and becoming sex slaves for their pimps. Or, American girls and young women kidnapped and raped repeatedly and sold? They also come in through the southern border, Asia, and Russia, I am not denying that it is happening, but you thinking it doesn’t happen in America by Americans is just flat out wrong.

Why on earth you excuse the people committing the crime of buying the girls is beyond me. If there were no buyers they could not be sold. It is demand that is the most important part of the market equation, not supply.

Mexico doesn’t even fall into the top ten for Fentanyl consumption and Mexico is a big producer. https://www.statista.com/statistics/459497/worldwide-share-of-fentanyl-consumption-by-country/ The drug producers sell the drugs where the people buy and use the drugs.

@JLeslie I don’t excuse it. But dealing with the crime after it is in the country is far harder than hitting it at the bottleneck…the border. Of course there are girls that take the wrong turn in life and there are even some that are kidnapped and sold. You would likely have that if the border was secure. That you could address by dealing with the crime since there isn’t really a bottleneck. But again, some of those kidnappers are in the country illegally too. Face it…a LOT of human trafficking happens at the border. And it is easily stopped if we secure our border. To ignore it and say we can deal with it later is foolish.

Mexico isn’t the source of the Fentanyl…China is. But they have a hard time shipping it directly to the US. So they ship it to drug cartels in Mexico who then smuggle it across our weak border. This works because everyone knows how weak our southern border is. I don’t know why you are so against legal immigration instead of illegal. You have to be otherwise you wouldn’t be fighting so hard to defend what is going on.

I’m not defending the crime going on, and I’m for tighter more efficient borders.

Also, even if China is routing through Mexico (I’ll take your word for it) the point is they aren’t selling it in Mexico in the quantities anywhere close to what they do in the US.

Fix the demand for drugs and slaves in the US.

If there is a bottleneck get a better system for evaluating people coming through the border. That’s what I said to begin with. Not a future appointment with immigration, but instead one within a few days. More judges down at the border. More opportunity to apply in-country so people just looking for work don’t have to try to use asylum.

What I’m against is framing most immigrants as crooks and violent. That’s blatantly false. Associating coming to America without papers as making someone more likely to be a criminal is unwarranted and unfair. Many of these people are very poor. You know as well as me that coyotes take advantage of them.

Fix the gang problems. Fix the unhappiness among our children. Fix the poverty in the country. Help people with mental illness. Fix the things in the country that make us a magnet for crime.

@JLeslie Look at it this way with the drugs or even the sex trafficking. People are driven by their vices. If they like getting high, something new looks exciting so yes, there is a market. But if that something new isn’t allowed to be in the marketplace, people won’t buy it. Can’t buy it. To allow it into the marketplace and then say it is the consumer’s fault? Nah. That’s deflection.

And I don’t blame most immigrants as crooks and violent. But I do say that entering the country illegally is patently wrong. And making it okay only accepts all the vice that comes with it. There are enough problems in this country without adding to them. And even the “good” illegals are breaking the law…knowingly. If they are willing to do that, what else are they willing to do? The same question can be asked about ever person alive. But again…we have enough people in this country that are troubled, why is it necessary to add to it?

A Visa to enter this country costs about $200. Paying a coyote costs about $10000. Not to mention all the dangers of the travel. They ONLY reason people are willing to do that is because (a) they don’t think they could qualify for a visa for some reason and (b) they know that entry is not a big deal. If they can make it to the border they will likely be able to stay for a long, long time.

People coming here illegally don’t respect this country. They don’t want to obey the laws. They don’t want to follow the rules. They don’t want to assimilate to this society and become citizens per the laws. They want the laws to assimilate to them to make their crime of entry okay.

People who come to the US want to be in the US. Think about it! They are hoping for the possibility of a better life. It isn’t about not respecting the country. It is about believing they will be better off here. They would much rather have papers and not have to worry about being found out.

It seems to me you don’t know people who didn’t have papers at one time or another. Actually, you might know plenty of people like that and not realize it. It seems pretty clear Melania Trump was working as a model without working papers in her younger days. One of my friends from Wales who was working for the UN for many years and later went to a private company says she was without paper for a while. You have no idea how prevalent it is, because who would risk telling you.

I understand your point to some extent, my husband was running out on his visa and he didn’t want to marry me just for papers (we were dating) and he would have left if his visa ran out. He is very by the book, but he was not in a desperate situation. He had just graduated from college and bilingual. He was driving a BMW and living in his parents’ home in the US, not to be confused with their other house in Mexico. Although, they were going broke at the time.

@JLeslie People that immigrate here legally want to be here. But they respect the laws and the rules. Those that come illegally do not. Yes, they want to be here, but they don’t respect it. If you wanted to go to your neighbor’s house and just walked in would you call that respecting your neighbors? After all, you wanted to be there. Then you start rearranging their furniture because you want it a different way. Is that respecting them? Anything you do in their house on your terms is disrespectful. Even if you sat quietly in the other room, you are not respecting their lives, rights, or property. In your way of thinking, if you broke into your neighbor’s house through a window, that doesn’t really matter once you are in. You believe your neighbor should welcome you.

There’s a reason that we don’t have the same issues on our northern border. It has to do with respecting the law. Again, I have no truck at all with people wanting to immigrate to this country. It can help us and can help them. But it also allows us to have control over who enters our house.

@seawulf575 That old world way of thinking about respect has a lot of problems with it. I see it among older generations and I encountered it living in South across all ages. They say things like: Children must say ma’am and show respect. Children need to tuck in their shirts and show respect. People who don’t follow our cultural norms aren’t respectful. Those Yankees don’t show respect or the flip way of swaying that is Yankees are rude.

If you have no problem with people immigrating than why don’t you talk more about a way to fix the system rather than focusing so much on how you think so many people coming across the border are bad people. They are just mostly poor or oppressed people. You don’t want people who are poor in our country? Is that it? I know you don’t want people who commit crimes, but nobody wants that. Now, you have the other 99% of the people trying to come here.

@seawulf575 When I got my marriage license 30 years ago, a woman next to me told me she was Canadian and needed to get married to stay. It’s not like Canadians don’t use the system in a dishonest way also. I was shocked she told me, a stranger, right there practically within earshot of anyone who wanted to listen. Up until that point I didn’t think of Canadians as having a problem getting into the US, but even they have to deal with immigration if they want to live and work here. You are naive about who around you has “worked the system” to be in this country. Or, is that different to you than walking across the border?

The Candian border doesn’t have the same problem because Canada is overall a safe place to live with good social systems and economic opportunity, so people aren’t leaving in droves. Anytime there is a third world country bordering a prosperous industrialized nation, there is going to be people trying to cross the border. That’s just a simple function of geography.

They’re only illegal until they’re granted asylum.

They are the same people with or without papers.

People who come here with papers and stay past their visa, did they magically change somehow?

The word illegal is useless and senselessly being used. Nothing is being done to fix any problem it represents, real or imagined. Dumb politics should be ruled illegal.

I agree. We need to drop the word.

@JLeslie Let’s review what you just said and I want you to tell me why these things are wrong. You said this thinking has lots of problems with it. Children must say ma’am (or sir) and show respect. What are the problems with children learning respect for their elders? Children need to tuck in their shirts and show respect. What is the problem with wanting children to take pride in how they look? Please, enlighten me. You are acting like things like this are unreasonable. I guess you could let your kids tell you to fuck off while they wear their pants down around their thighs. Is that the better way to raise kids? It is what you are implying. So please, clarify.

My views have nothing to do with rich or poor. I have suggested numerous times that it is cheaper and easier to apply for a visa than to take a 2500 mile walk at the cost of at least 10,000…a walk that is filled with rapes, murders, thefts and all sorts of things. But that is better for the poor people? That is what you are arguing. In fact, you haven’t once even addressed my suggestion of getting a visa. You don’t even want to see it as an option.

Here is the way to fix the immigration system. Stop bypassing it. Right now it is so screwed up because the Dems don’t want to have any laws for entry into this country. They want to fight tooth and nail to allow as many people to enter illegally as possible. Enforce, to the letter of the law, all immigration rules, deporting, detaining, etc for at least 3 years. Then we can see where the real issues with immigration are. There are problems with legal immigration, but they are ignored because of the battle to bring more people in illegally. Put them to the forefront and you can start fixing the system.

@seawulf575 The problem with the ma’am or sir example is (some) Southerners who expect it judge northern children when the children don’t do it. Northern children don’t do it because it’s not part of their culture, not because they lack respect for their elders.

The problem with the tucked in shirt example is the same, some kids don’t tuck in their shirts, because their fashion is to be untucked.

Both of these examples were given to me by my friend from Mississippi who in her late thirties moved to St. Louis. She said now she realizes those stereotypes and expectations she held were wrong. She had nothing but positive comments about the children in her new school where she was teaching. She said the children in St. Louis were actually more engaged in school, and more inquisitive.

The Dems deport a lot of people. Under Obama they did and the US is under Biden too.

The border and immigration need fixing. What we don’t need is the idea that all of these people coming across are rapists, murdered and thieves. I see new immigrants working hard every day.

God forbid you ever need to flee your country. It doesn’t even occur to you does it.

Bush tried to get some immigration laws on the books to help the process and his party was angry with him.

About Bush https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-immigration/senate-kills-bush-immigration-reform-bill-idUSN2742643820070629

More detail:
https://georgewbush-whitehouse.archives.gov/stateoftheunion/2007/initiatives/immigration.html

@JLeslie You keep saying that manners are bad, but you really don’t explain why. Just that a friend of yours felt it was wrong. What is the downside. Are you trying to say that children with manners are less engaged or inquisitive? Why? That’s what you are missing…the why of your claims.

And once again, I have given you an idea to fix things and you entirely ignore them. You keep saying things like the rules need fixing and you even said I don’t bring ideas. Yet I have a couple times now and you will not actually address them.

Are all the immigrants that enter illegally rapists or murderers? Nope. Are there lots of them on the travel up to the border? Oh yeah. But I guess that’s the price you pay when you want to enter a country illegally. I mean you could pay $200 and do it legally, but no, let’s go the hard way. Because they are hard working honest people they ought to be in a position of being targets, right? But the other part you are trying to gloss over is that rapists, murderers and other criminals DO enter the country illegally. But that is the price we are all supposed to pay to make sure anyone can cross the border anytime, right? Again…tell that to the families of those injured and killed in Las Vegas by an illegal alien that has been tossed out of the country a couple times and had a criminal past. Just tell those families that their loved ones were martyrs for the greater good of having no borders.

@JLeslie Here is an interesting article. It puts a bit of a pin in the idea that most illegals are innocent, hard working people just looking for a better life. 90% of those arrested in 2019 had criminal records. Amazing. But hey, that’s okay. Because that 10% is worth it, right?

^^Your article say nothing about when those criminals crossed the border. They might have done it back in 1992.

The justice system is releasing those criminals back into our streets. I’ve heard stories of violent criminals being deported multiple times. We should not deport them! They should be in our jails. Why are you ignoring that?

We should have better immigration laws and more staff to process people coming through the borders. I’ve said that multiple times.

90% arrested does not mean 90% of illegal immigrants are criminals. You know that right? I’ve already stated I do care about the crimes and gangs.

You COMPLETELY MISSED the point of the ma’am example. It’s confounding to me, and reinforces to me again why people who think like you think as you do. You expect people to have your same etiquette rules even if they have never been exposed to them. You judge them for not knowing or not agreeing with your rules and make assumptions about them and feel they are less civilized, uncultured, and beneath you. I got it.

A link for you about sir and ma’am. It’s a UK question, but it fits with how people who don’t use those honorifics view them in general. https://www.reddit.com/r/languagelearning/comments/cv4f68/irishbritish_english_how_to_use_sir_and_maam/

Especially, the example in one of the answers regarding meeting the inlaws. With family and people close to family it’s odd and uncomfortable to people who don’t use it. It’s not perceived as respectful, it’s perceived as cold and unusual. It’s not a military situation, it’s a situation where there is respect because you love and care about each other, and that is shown through behaviors and calling each other by whatever the individual prefers.

Ironically, the use of sir and ma’am in parts of the US likely stems from the English etiquette of addressing royalty and a caste system. America rejected the idea of royalty and predetermined social levels as part of our founding.

My husband started using sir and ma’am while living in the South and I told him he needs to break the habit, especially at work. It makes him sound weak and in a lower position than he is to my northern ears, and I expect it might sound the same to the c-level people in large companies, unless it is specifically a company that uses it regularly even among the top levels.

It’s just a when in Rome thing. Don’t be so ethnocentric.

@JLeslie “We should not deport them! They should be in our jails. Why are you ignoring that?” Maybe because they didn’t commit their crimes in our country. Maybe because Democrats refuse to jail them or turn them over to ICE for deportation or even extradition (if there is a request for that). Maybe because current immigration laws state they need to be deported. But here’s the part you are ignoring completely…the part at the heart of the entire thing. How did they enter this country in the first place? In many cases they have been deported and they just come back in. How does that happen? You are fighting to keep porous borders but don’t want to actually deal with the negatives of that. You only want to try dealing with it once they are loose in our country. These criminals came in illegally. LEGAL immigration would have caught them and not allowed them in to start with so we wouldn’t even be having this discussion. Articles like the one I cited wouldn’t exist. Why are you so dead-set in favor of illegal immigration?

I didn’t miss a single point behind the ma’am example. But you did. You said it was a problem. You have yet to really show why it is a problem. It isn’t that I care if someone shares my rules or anything. I have had many people NOT use sir or ma’am but I don’t think anything about it. But teaching children that is a way of teaching them manners. You have avoided that entirely. You cited a blog as why it is bad, but you missed the entire point of that as well. You have someone that was raised to say sir or ma’am that used that in a foreign country in an effort to be polite. They were raised to be polite. It seemed to be taken oddly and her manners made her care enough to wonder why. Without manners, she wouldn’t have cared if it insulted them or not, and certainly not enough to try and find the better way to be polite in their country. If you read down the responses, you finally get to an actual British person responding. He cites many examples of where those words were used to be polite, usually in a more formal setting. They are used to show respect. So we are back to why is it wrong. Especially since in the USA, you don’t get the cultural difference that was seen in Dublin. So you are avoiding the entire thing.

And, another point when it comes to respect. You tried conflating teaching children to say sir or ma’am (which you claim is a bad thing) with entering the country illegally (against the law, which you seem to view favorably). So in your view entering someone’s country illegally is respectful but treating them to an honorific isn’t. Or is it just respect you don’t like? Is that just for the sake of this discussion or do you despise respect in your real life too?

@seawulf575
A couple points:

You will literally never stop illegal immigration. You can only reduce it. Time and resources are finite.
And at the end of the day, this is no one’s land. Anything can be taken for the same reason “Americans” use for taking things: freedom, capitalism, manifest destiny, the strong survive etc.

The perfect, educated Americans you think aren’t criminals, actually are….and are tied in with immigrants. Unfettered capitalism uses immigrants, illegal and legal, because capitalism relies on taking advantage. That’s literally what it means to “capitalize” on a situation.

Surely you remember all those news stories about American banks laundering drug money.

Street level gangsters have admitted that sometimes upper middle class and higher white people are involved in their work. That’s legal citizens if you aren’t aware.

You really think a bunch of tired poor people are organizing international crime rings? They’re getting help from blue eyed Americans and europeans.

Also…you could have simply gone to the ICE/DHS website instead of that 2004 looking website that looks like it was made by Rush Limbaugh.

It’s really obvious you intentionally seek out right leaning propaganda.

Even I stopped watching MSNBC and left leaning media, because a normal person recognizes when they’re being pandered to.

@Blackberry Yep, you will likely have illegal immigration. But that is not a reason to say “Don’t worry about borders because they are meaningless.”. Your entire argument about this being no one’s land is made worse by the current situation AND it makes my point about no borders = no country. But let me ask: How do so many countries get away with minimal illegal immigration? China had some issues with illegal immigration and took action. When the N. Korean border became a problem, they let the military deal with it. Razor wire was put up and walls were built and patrolled. People attempting to enter illegally were rejected immediately. There were many illegals in the Guangdong region. Most of these were people that entered the country legally and over-stayed their visas. But the police did frequent raids through the region snatching up the illegals and deporting them. The government put sanctions on people/companies that employed illegals. There aren’t many illegals in China. The point is, things can be done to reduce the number of illegals in a country as well as deterring others from entering. Their land is “no one’s land” but somehow they manage to keep it defined as theirs.

And at no time have I even vaguely suggested that Americans, and even rich Americans, are not involved in criminal behavior. Nor have I ever suggested we don’t do anything about it. But if you have a finite number of criminals and then set up a situation where more can come in any time they like, how are you making ANY efforts to stop crime? You are making a situation that SUPPORTS crime. Now I know your comments were not supposed to be telling that story. You seemed genuinely disgusted (as you should be) by the actions of the banksters and other wealthy individuals to utilize the criminal element to make more money. But your arguments are conflicting. On one hand you are supporting no borders, to let anyone in whenever, however and on the other you are bemoaning the woes of just that sort of action. Somehow in your mind you have separated the two.

I have no problem with legal immigration. I have a HUGE problem with illegal immigration and the policies that erode our borders.

So what is the solution,a machine gun nest set up every 50 yards?

@seawulf575 You have a problem with illegal immigration and no real solutions either like the politicians you support. And with solutions I mean deals based on compromise.

@SQUEEKY2 The answer starts with actually admitting there’s a problem. After that you follow up with silly things like, oh I don’t know, actually enforcing border security and immigration laws. You stop sending the message that crossing the border outside of port of entry is an option. Stop making enticements to get people to come here illegally. If that means building a wall, then that is what it takes. Personally I like the idea of trench instead of a wall, but hey, it is what it is.

@mazingerz88 Here are the questions your statement brings to mind:

(1) Why should there be ANY compromise when it comes to border security? It threatens every aspect of our safety from local to national. The fact that the politicians you like really don’t care about either doesn’t mean we should compromise with that.

(2) Why haven’t the Democrats done a single thing towards immigration reform in the past 50 years? You like to slam the right side of the aisle, but as usual you cannot see the same sin in your own favorites. The Dems have not proposed a single thing. In fact, when Trump was POTUS, he basically demanded that congress do something about immigration reform and they deflected like crazy.

(3) Why don’t you believe in compromise (like the politicians you support)? I have given solutions yet you reject them out of hand because the leftist media hasn’t told you it is okay to talk about them or to even consider them.

^^What solutions ( potentially ) based on political compromise ( potentially )
do you personally have in mind?

@mazingerz88 I have listed several solutions, or at least the start of solutions, on these pages. But you still haven’t answered why there should be political compromise when it comes to security of the country.

^^Political compromise could move fixing immigration issues forward peacefully, one that might hold for a decade at least. Are you not for political parties making political deals? Do you think those suggestions you said you mentioned above could address what could be Democratic leaders’ idea of an acceptable compromise from their pov, not just yours and those of your political leaders?

@mazingerz88 Until you secure the border, you cannot have compromise on immigration bills. Right now, that is where the parties are. The Dems don’t want any agreement that secures the border…they fight vehemently against it, and the Repubs won’t accept any compromise that includes rights for illegals. We’ve seen these discussions in the past.

@mazingerz88 I stated it earlier in this thread that you can’t fix immigration while the border is wide open. What I can’t understand is why anyone actually fights against securing the border. Too much bad stuff pours in with it being like it is now. Literally millions of lives have been ruined by the drugs that have poured across it over the years. So why would any sane person actually defend open borders?

^^I hope you have a link that clearly shows Dems leadership clearly refusing to secure the border the way they believe it should be secured yet not doing anything…and not just how your leaders think what a secured border looks like.

Also…so just like your political leaders bullshitting about not being able to do anything while the border is “open” you too are doing the same thing. Tsk. Pity.

Again @seawulf575 you make it sound like people don’t even have to slow down at the southern border.
I highly doubt it’s as open as you claim do some get through probably ,should they be deported when caught of course,and you get upset when called a fright winger but are you not spreading fear by claiming all these monsters are coming for them and their families?

SOME immigrants COULD be murderers, rapists and drug dealers (2%) therefore ALL immigrants should be banned or machine gunned down at the border !

@seawulf575 To clarify: people will always slip through borders illegally.
It’s the nature of humans. If we can build entire societies, why would a wall stop us?

They’ve built tunnels and fit people in car fenders.

You would need constant LiDAR airplane surveillance 24/7, but who’s gonna pay for that?

In industrial plants all across the country there are places where employees are 90% immigrants, because why would a person from a city go live in some empty racist town?

A bunch of people look the other way and let some illegals slip in and they’ll work on legal status while they’re here slaving away in factories for years.

You’re gonna have to ask all those businessmen and politicians why they aren’t spending boat loads of money to fix a problem they actually benefit from.

Meanwhile, some money raised from gullible americans to build a wall was actually stolen.

@SQUEEKY2 There were 234,000 encounters in just one month. Run that out and what do you have? Let’s round it down and say we average 200k encounters per month. That is 2.4M illegals in a year. And that is only the ones we actually saw and stopped. By all estimates you could just about double that. Does that sound like it has any deterrent at all to crossing the borders? How many millions cross illegally into Canada in a month?

@mazingerz88 Ask and ye shall receive, though to be honest, it gets old showing you the facts.

https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/cbp-enforcement-statistics

Please note the generally lowering numbers through Trump’s presidency followed by the meteoric climb with Biden. Why? Because Biden got rid of all the things Trump had done to slow the influx. Trump may have been even more successful if the Dems hadn’t fought tooth and nail at building a wall.

^^Seriously, you’re showing me numbers to score points? You seem to be missing the point by a continent.

@Tropical_Willie 108,000 overdose deaths last year most of which were from Fentanyl alone. But hey, don’t take my word for it…you never do

https://nida.nih.gov/news-events/news-releases/2021/01/methamphetamine-overdose-deaths-rise-sharply-nationwide

https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/stats/drug-seizure-statistics

https://www.cnn.com/2022/05/11/health/drug-overdose-deaths-record-high-2021/index.html

So the illegal drugs entering the country killed that many people. How many is too many for you? Consider the damage to societies, families, etc from these deaths. Add in the massive efforts at treating drug addiction in this country and you have one hot mess. And I haven’t even talked about idiots like that fool that stabbed those people in Las Vegas. Known criminal that had been deported several times still walking back into the US. How many deaths are acceptable losses for you to keep a non-existent border?

Again, what is the push to avoid border security?

@mazingerz88 Yep, that’s pretty much what I expected from you. A challenge that, when met, you suddenly act like it didn’t mean anything. You really are a sad little person, aren’t you?

@Blackberry You continue to argue with yourself. You don’t want to do anything about the massive influx (largest in the world) of illegal aliens and then want to blame those that put them to work for the problem. If the illegals weren’t here, the industries that use them wouldn’t have a work force. And the place to stop them is at the border. As I said before I’m all for fining (hard) those companies that hire illegals. Make it woefully painful for them. And make it progressive…x for the first offense, 2x for the second, 10x for the third.

But tell me, if you don’t want the illegals working, why do you fight to let them in this country so easily?

^^You are the sad and cruel
teeny-weeny minded sorry excuse for a human concerned with issues about the US border. The ant or rather the termite nipping beneath the negotiating table. All you see is yourself, nothing else, no one else. Get a life man! Lol

^^Too far. Geesh.

@mazingerz88 I find it funny that not one of you folks on the left have actually answered the question about why you are fighting so hard for the open borders. You have tried challenging me and got your ass handed to you. But now you are are saying I think of no one but myself. I’m thinking about a lot of people other than me. I’m the one that has been addressing the damage done to millions from the drugs that pour across the border. You have all avoided that, or at best, trying to down play it. So none of you can actually tell me who you are thinking of or why you are fighting so hard. For the immigrants seeking a better life? I’ve addressed that as well. They could immigrate legally so much more easily and safely than taking the treacherous path to enter illegally. For the asylum seekers? They would be better off showing up at a port of entry rather than trying to cross illegally. Nothing you have presented makes any sense for anyone except a media that is complicit with the Democrats for trying to destroy this country.

@seawulf575
You are aware none of us are politicians or border agents, right?
You keep claiming we’re against border protection and aren’t doing anything like we have the power, and just aren’t simply to spite you.

Why don’t you go to the offices of DHS or the border and start making demands?

@Blackberry Yes I do understand that. Are you aware that the border agents are just as fed up with the Democrat policies as I am? And are you also aware that whenever fools like those on these pages speak the prescribed narratives the Democrats push even harder to keep the borders open? If you REALLY cared about people, you’d be going to your computer, writing your Democratic politicians and demand they actually do something about it.

@JLeslie some people love autocrats because they don’t negotiate, comprise or back down.

Examples:

Putin

Stalin

Hitler

Trump (except when he is warned about the 25th Amendment) !

@Tropical_Willie Huh. That must have been why Trump tried to get the Democrats to do something about immigration and why they fought against it….because he’s an autocrat. Your TDS is showing.

@Tropical_Willie I’d add Arafat.

@Tropical_Willie Another interesting thing about your list is how many leftists were on it.

Yah Hitler was leftist ha ha ha ha ha hA HA HA !

Dictator is dictator or in Trumps’ wannabe!

His favorite author was Hitler growing up !

Border Patrol could set up a 50 meter zone North of Mexico border (don’t need no stinking wall) and set set-up machine guns ever 30 meters and fire 50 caliber at anything that moved . . . SMDH ! !

@JLeslie I’m getting the feeling the very can being kicked down the road by uncompromising politicians and their voters had turned into a ticking time bomb and I’m not really sure yet which political party actually prefers that.

@seawulf575 I have asked you then what is the solution you just seem to be hell bent on blaming it all on the democrats,the Northern border seems well protected ,what is the solution besides just blaming the democrats?
Lock it totally down,a massive amount of trade legal trade goes over that border daily so that won’t work,what is the solution?

@SQUEEKY2 I have listed several things to do on this thread and you continue to ignore them. I have suggested first to admit there is a problem. Next to enforce the laws. Do sweeps to round up illegals and deport them. Keep a record of every one you deport as that plays into immigration laws. Enact sanctions against companies that hire illegals. Put up the wall or dig a trench, either way. I prefer the trench because then tunneling under it becomes even harder. Stop offering illegals bonuses for showing up. Allow the border patrol to do their jobs instead of hobbling them. These are all things I have suggested (except the enhancement of keeping records) and you have ignored them, merely trying to say I don’t offer any solutions. And you have not actually addressed any of them. You actually tried to say there really wasn’t the problem until I gave you citations showing how bad it is. Then you avoided that as well. If you are all for open borders, why don’t we start bussing these illegals to Canada? Your enlightened country would welcome a few million wouldn’t you?

What I don’t get is in Canada if you have a criminal record the states forbid you entry(other than driving offences) you have to show proof of COVID vaccine and have a valid passport just to gain entry .
You don’t need any of that to come in from the south end?

@SQUEEKY2 If these people were trying to enter the country legally, they would need the same. That is the key point you are avoiding. They are not entering the country legally. They are crossing the border wherever they can and then, if they are snagged, they are trying to claim asylum. And because the majority of the millions of illegal immigrants in this country entered the country illegally, so do all the criminal elements. And if they are caught and deported, they just walk right back in again. Imagine if people just walked across the border into Canada by the millions. Think Canada would be okay with that? I can tell you that by their rules, they would not be.

So they are trying to get in ,in any dark corner they can find got it and a wall or a ditch will prevent all these criminals from getting then I see no problem.

But as for drugs getting in as long as there is a market for these illegal drugs they will keep getting in no matter how tight the border gets, if you can get the need (market) for these drugs to go away then the drug flow will dry up, no rocket science needed.

Most of the drugs come in by plane anyway.

@SQUEEKY2 A wall or a ditch would not stop 100% of the flow of illegal immigrants, but it would deter many. Especially if there were proper support for Border Patrol to patrol those things and to be able to deport these folks if they do work their way in. But it would be a far cry better than the nothing we have now.

They do return some to the other side of the border, after due process (that is the law). You can’t send anyone you think is illegal and the wrong color back over the border I know that is not what you think but that is your opinion!

@Tropical_Willie That is one of the problems…there are minimal number of judges and holding facilities. So do they return some back, but they don’t have the resources to fully deal with the massive influx.

You want ALL immigrants returned Sir !

That is your opinion!

@Tropical_Willie Not true at all. I welcome LEGAL immigrants. But this just shows exactly what I have said about leftist debate strategy. You assign a belief to me and then try to hold me accountable for it. But tell me, since you like so many haven’t been able to yet, why are you fighting so hard for open borders when there is so much bad that comes in, destroying millions of lives?