Social Question

Brian1946's avatar

Since when is forcing a teacher or counselor, to out a student to (a) potentially dangerous parent(s), "protecting the child"?

Asked by Brian1946 (32264points) August 28th, 2023
33 responses
“Great Question” (2points)

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/trans-children-bills-lgbt-states-b2269257.html

“Trans youth are facing an onslaught of regressive, punitive bills designed to bully them into silence or punish them if they identify as trans.
One of the most recent is a bill proposed in the Indiana legislature which would force teachers or administrators to notify parents if the student wants to change their ‘name, attire, pronoun, title, or word to identify the student in a manner that is inconsistent with the student’s biological sex at birth.”

Proponents of these measures are actually claiming that they’re to “protect the child”.

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Answers

SQUEEKY2's avatar

Let me guess these Bills are put forward by the conservative administration?

Brian1946's avatar

You’re basically correct.

I think there are about 7 states that are trying to do or have done this.

There are also some school districts within blue states, that are trying to “DeSanitize” their jurisdictions.

JLeslie's avatar

This reminds me very much of the bills or ballot items to require abortion clinics to notify parents if a minor is pregnant. A way to chip away at abortion rights.

Here’s the tricky part, you would be surprised how many pro choice parents were in favor of parental notification. They didn’t get it. They didn’t understand that parental notification might push a teenager to delay abortion or do something dangerous. In the minds of these parents, they wanted to be notified so they could help their daughter.

It’s not protecting the child if the parents are horrible, but it might be helping the child if the parents are supportive great parents. Most people feel it’s more important to protect the child with horrible parents.

The problem with bills like this is the original motive of the people who put them forth. It’s almost always religious right anti LGBT pray the say away people.

seawulf575's avatar

I believe this to be a natural reaction to the entire Transmania that has been going on.

The article you cited is supposedly a view point of a parent of a trans child. Their claim is that by requiring schools to notify parents of things going on with their children is a threat. A threat to who? There have been dozens of instances where schools have pushed transgenderism onto children all while hiding it from the parents. There have been pushes to allow young children to have life altering treatments and even surgeries without parental consent. So now people are pushing back against organizations that are trying to take control of the children and excluding the parents and it is suddenly a threat to the child?!?

Look at it this way: there are plenty of groomers out there that are trying to convince children they need to transition. They target children because children are vulnerable. And there are a number of cases where, with the help of the policies that exclude parents, these children have transitioned. Let’s stop there for a moment. The article claims that notifying parents is a potential threat. So is it less of a threat, will the parents be less upset, if the child suddenly comes home one day and says they have transitioned? Not that they want to transition, but that they have?

Stop the insanity.

RocketGuy's avatar

@seawulf575 – you are listening to people who have made up insane claims.

seawulf575's avatar

@RocketGuy I listen to the victims of the Trans movement. And yes, they all have the same story…that they were influenced by trans activists online who were targeting young boys and girls. There have been endless stories like this one that shows government officials helping to push transitions on children without including the parents.

So let me ask you then…why do you see it so necessary to exclude parents from their own children?

seawulf575's avatar

@RocketGuy So you believe that complete strangers have every right to raise your children but you do not? Funny that you are fighting against complete strangers fighting against interfering in that relationship.

The article you cited is interesting but it is not peer reviewed and it does not really address the full story. How many of the trans kids that were studied were groomed and transitioned without parents being consulted? It also doesn’t talk about what “psychological abuse” is. It doesn’t define it that I saw. If a child asks for something and is told no, is that considered abuse? Maybe to a trans kid as they are already more emotionally confused. It doesn’t take into account any other existing psychological issues. It relies solely on what the children say. That sort of takes us back to allowing children to run things.

And none of this actually brings us back to what I said about this topic in the first place. By hiding this from the parents until all the transitions are done, how is that less traumatic to the children when the parents are finally let in on the secret? Think about that. Some nut job on line starts talking your 10 year old son into believing they are actually supposed to be a girl. They work with your son to guide him to places that will give him puberty blockers (the same thing they use for chemical castrations with prisoners), hormone treatments, and eventually surgeries. At what point to the parents get a clue and start asking questions? They are, after all, responsible for the health and welfare of their children, right?

You are suggesting parents have no rights when it comes to their children. That is a VERY ugly concept.

JLeslie's avatar

@seawulf575 It’s more that we want children to be able to hide their LGBT status from their parents if their parents are going to beat them, ostracize them, send them to religious training to be straight, or in some way harm them. Plus, straight children aren’t forced to talk about their gender or sex habits with their parents.

There are two sides to this. Some children are afraid to tell their parents, because they think their parents will be angry, but they are wrong. Some children don’t want to tell their parents, because they think their parents will be angry and horrible and they are right!

Remember when Republicans were moaning on and on about how child abuse is up because covid rules weren’t letting children go to school? You can’t have it both ways. Are some parents abusive or not?

Demanding a mandatory reporting might be too extreme. How about counselors in schools to find out if a child wants help telling their parents? The counselor can evaluate if there is any reason to think there will be a very negative reaction.

Most teachers will want to help the child if they seem to need help, including telling their parents, without a law.

SQUEEKY2's avatar

Very reasonable answer @JLeslie but fright wingers don’t respond well to reason.

Tropical_Willie's avatar

Right Wingers think is better for Trans kids to commit suicide !

SQUEEKY2's avatar

Not all fright wingers are radical and fanatic @Tropical_Willie but a great many are.

SQUEEKY2's avatar

When Fright wing maga tards, deny a 10 year old pregnant rape victim access to a abortion in her home state that makes them radical in my book.

seawulf575's avatar

@JLeslie So you are saying you believe parent’s rights over their children shouldn’t exist. Got it. It’s actually worse since what you are saying is that it is okay for anyone to influence children except their parents and that you want children to be scared of their parents.

But you still haven’t answered the poser of how the children are supposed to transition without their parents catching on. That one is a logic question and we know the left doesn’t do well with logic. At some point the children are going to have to address their feelings with the parents. They could do it up front and work through it with the parents or they can lie to the parents, hide from the parents, basically stop being a member of the family until so much damage is done to the child that there is no going back, even if they want to. And your choice is the latter.

Here’s a concept for you: if a child is mature enough to make a decision that will change their life forever, they should be mature enough to have a rational conversation with their parents about it.

seawulf575's avatar

@Tropical_Willie Funny that Trans as a group have the highest rate of suicide of any other in the world. And that is after they transition.

seawulf575's avatar

@SQUEEKY2 So let me get this straight. You, who have no children, believe it is better to tell others how to raise their children? That it is better for strangers to have all the influence and decision making for a child but not the parents? And you call me radical?

JLeslie's avatar

I didn’t say what you are accusing me of. The state actually has the power to remove children from their parents, so the idea that parents are able to do whatever the hell they want to children is misleading and false.

Having said that, 99% of the time I’m usually in favor of not interfering with how parents raise their children. That means prayer and religion should not be in public schools. Leave MY children alone, I teach them MY religion.

I tend to agree with not teaching LGBT in sex ed before high school, I don’t know what years it is mentioned, but my guess that’s only an issue in a few school districts. I know there is some sort of fight about it where I grew up, I tend to be more conservative on the issue.

If you don’t want teachers interfering, then saying nothing to the parents is also not interfering. If the parents aren’t clued into their kids, so be it.

Tropical_Willie's avatar

“The study also does not pin down exactly why trans people face a higher suicide risk, but the researchers theorize that part of the problem may be “minority stress,” in which people are bullied, discriminated against, socially excluded or faced with general prejudice for who they are. The researchers say previous work has showed that 60% of transgender people in Denmark experienced abuse in the form of harassment or bullying, and 30% experienced physical violence. Trans people in Denmark also report that they face discrimination in their interactions with the health care system. ”

https://www.cnn.com/2023/06/28/health/transgender-suicide-risk/index.html

SQUEEKY2's avatar

Wulfie how did you get that out of what I said???
So you believe that ten year old should have carried the rapers fetus to term and you call me radical?got it!

JLeslie's avatar

@Tropical_Willie That might be an argument for healthcare workers to be better trained AND for Republicans to shut the fuck up about trans issues. The Republicans made this into a political issue not Democrats. They continue to do it. Instead of a transchild being the usual insecure and unsure, now he can turn on the TV and hear and see all of the disapproval in HD. Thankfully, a few Republican politicians say semi ok things to calm down the rhetoric, but for the most part the disapproval is so loud it’s painful.

seawulf575's avatar

@JLeslie I agree with pretty much everything you have just stated about parents and how some may react. I entirely understand that there are bad parents out there and that some would be angry and violent if their children came forward to discuss their gender confusion with them. But let’s be completely honest…there aren’t as many as the trans activists would make it out to be.

If my children, when they were 10 or 12, came to me questioning their gender, I’d have the conversation with them. I wouldn’t be happy about it necessarily, but I wouldn’t shut down that line of communication. Now…that being said…if I found out that some nut job online had been targeting them to confuse them I would be angry. Not at my children but at the nut job. And I would likely take that up as a crusade. And THAT is what I really believe the concern is…that if parent’s are left in the loop they might seek to out the perverts that are online talking sexuality with small children.

And that really is the crux of the entire issue, isn’t it? Schools want to do whatever they want with children and don’t want the parents to have a say in it. Activists want to target children and don’t want the parents to interfere. And when parents finally fight back, they are suddenly branded as violent, malignant forces in the lives of the poor helpless children.

Again, why is this law even an issue? Think about that for a few minutes. It is a law that is reaffirming the rights of a parent in the raising of their children. The people that are against laws like this are the ones that really need to be looked at closely. Any push back against a law like this is really trying to break up the nuclear family, making the parents nothing but piggy banks in the raising of the children.

seawulf575's avatar

@Tropical_Willie “It is theorized” says it all. It could also be theorized that trans people are emotionally unstable and are therefore more prone to suicide. Sounds like you are getting nervous.

seawulf575's avatar

@SQUEEKY2 Where did I get my response out of what you have said? Look at your answers. And think about the law in question. Everything you have said is nothing but a slam on conservatives and you hate the law that I’m certain you haven’t even read. And what the law is trying to do is stop the rampant interference by government employees (specifically teachers and counselors) between a child and their parents. So obviously, since you are so dead-set against this law, you must be in favor of keeping secrets from parents, from having strangers make decisions for children at the exclusion of the parents. And coming from a person that has no children, I find that awfully odd. Looking to influence some confused children yourself?

JLeslie's avatar

@seawulf575 EVERY parent is going to be upset if a stranger nut job is talking to their children about sex or gender.

Why do you want more and more laws? I thought you were libertarian?

The law is requiring a teacher to take action, even if in their judgment there is no issue. A kids casual mistake or misunderstanding can lead to a teacher having to deal with something they shouldn’t even have to bother with. Can deal with a kid going through questioning that maybe is over the top. If the teacher says too much in trying to understand or help the kid, in some states the teacher can be accused of talking about the topic in appropriately.

It’s a catch 22. It only is an issue because it gets politicians VOTES. If left to teachers and parents, they can sort it on their own 95% of the time. Why are you focusing on the small percentage?

Trans is less than 1% of the population and and maybe 5% have a teacher or parent handling it really badly. That sucks for the kids in that very bad situation, and as a society we should do something if we become aware, but perfectly “normal” middle class kids with a two parent home, smart, athletic, pretty, can live in a shitty home environment or wind up with a crappy teacher. The beat we can do is deal with it when we discover it. Creating more laws and hoops to jump through is getting to be too much.

cheebdragon's avatar

Considering the significantly higher rate of depression and suicide, it seems like not notifying parents would be a liability for schools.

JLeslie's avatar

I’ve seen stats that run from 11% to 50% of trans people get surgery, I’m not sure what is accurate, but it seems for sure most transgender people don’t get surgery.

@cheebdragon That is a reasonable point, but would you also agree people on TV talking about trans people as being abnormal or being prevented to receive treatment under the law is pushing these kids to feel isolated and suicidal also?

I’m right on board with being hesitant to treat children with hormones or surgery that would be a permanent change, but I am not hard line with no exceptions against it. These laws that some Republicans want to put in place are too rigid and outright scary for children when they hear adults fighting about them.

Some treatments might be reversible I don’t know. I also want psych support that reinforces people can change their minds while still being supportive. There are transgender or cross dressers (I don’t know if that term is still used) who live in both realms.

Normal straight girls get nose jobs, breast jobs, and it’s not unusual before age 18. I don’t always agree with it, but sometimes it seems reasonable to me, it depends on the circumstance. I understand a gender change is different, but it still is permanently altering their body, and the nose job and boob job is basically vanity and too bad that matters in our society, trans people actually feel in the wrong body.

RocketGuy's avatar

I thought prior to any permanent changes, trans people were supposed to live the life of their identified gender for a year to see if they actually liked living that way.

cheebdragon's avatar

@JLeslie I think it’s pretty rare for kids to get nose or boob jobs before they turn 18 and I can’t imagine it’s something a lot of kids would commit suicide over.

JLeslie's avatar

@cheebdragon It is not unusual in some ethnic groups to get a nose job while still in high school. Especially, back in the 60’s, 70’s, and 80’s a lot of girls changed their noses very young. I am not saying they are most often done before age 18, I am only saying it is not unusual before 18. Maybe you live in a small nosed area of the country.

I googled to find some stats:
Age 13–19 – 30,681 (14 percent of all rhinoplasty procedures performed in 2017)
Age 20–29 – 68,624 (31 percent of all rhinoplasty procedures performed in 2017)
Age 30–39 – 52,208 (24 percent of all rhinoplasty procedures performed in 2017)
Age 40–54 – 45,765 (21 percent of all rhinoplasty procedures performed in 2017)
Age 55 and over – 21,646 (10 percent of all rhinoplasty procedures performed in 2017)

Source: http://www.drjrgriffin.com/blog/rhinoplasty-statistics

Between high school and college girls have a chance to make a change and not have to explain themselves since college usually brings on a new set of friends. Those girls are typically 17 or 18.

seawulf575's avatar

@JLeslie Why do I want more laws? Because at some point the evil ones on the left took their agenda and started targeting kids and excluding parents. They institutionalized this behavior. To change it, laws are needed, making their behavior illegal. And as a Libertarian (even though I am an Independent) I would say that the behavior of those on the left who are trying to segregate children from their parents are intruding on the rights of the parents. Why are you fighting so hard to support that behavior?

And I’m sorry but comparing a nose job or a boob job to gender sex change is idiotic. If you give someone a boob job and they later regret it they can get it changed. It doesn’t impact their hormones for life, it doesn’t take away their ability to have children, it doesn’t remove parts that can never be put back on. AND you are missing one of the key arguments: the cosmetic surgery on minors requires parental consent. There are many organizations that are pushing to remove that requirement for sex change operations and treatments.

seawulf575's avatar

@RocketGuy in the old days there was a whole litany of things a person that wanted to undergo a sex change had to go through prior to even starting hormone therapies. Psychological evaluations that included telling their loved ones of their desire to change, cross dressing for a time before, during and after starting hormone therapies, and then finally the surgery to have the change. And trying to get this done for a child was very difficult. The psychology alone was a stumbling block. My understanding is that all that has changed. There is a girl that transitioned and now is trying to detransition. She says she started getting approached online by trans activists when she was 10 years old. They convinced her she was trans by age 12. At age 13 she came out to her parents and started the puberty blockers. She had a double mastectomy at age 15. At age 16 she realized she had made a huge mistake and decided to detransition. But the damage is done. Her body is so messed up that she will have to take medications for the rest of her life and she can never have children. I find it sad that children who have questions about their bodies and are starting puberty are the ones being targeted. They are a soup of raging hormones anyway and are rarely capable of completely rational thought. And I find it offensive that school boards and other organizations are helping to target these children at their most vulnerable point. And that targeting is what laws like this one are set up to block.

cheebdragon's avatar

It’s worth mentioning that women who have had their breasts
surgically enlarged are three times as likely to kill themselves.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/articles/200310/plastic-surgery-and-suicide

JLeslie's avatar

@seawulf575 I wrote: I’m right on board with being hesitant to treat children with hormones or surgery that would be a permanent change…

So, your problem is not with me.

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