Hamas would have ALL people killed in Palestine. Whatever it takes in order to annihilate Israel. Protest or no protest here in the US.

Those bleeding heart students protesting specifically Israel killing those whom Hamas is using as shields should be heard.

However those students who think that this century ( centuries?) of debacle in that part of the world is as simple as Israel being the bad guys need to study more.

Maybe they should join Fluther.

Not a helpful response from @hat .

Look at the history of the middle east conflict over the last 75 years. The palestinians have been ‘successful’ (sarcasm) because they have played the victim ever since 1948 and before. They had some legitimacy back in the 1940s, but a lot of the Palestinian strategy (if I can call it that) has been crying “woe is me woe is me” and not doing anything to better their situation.

You can go back to the Jordan/Palestine wars in the late 1960s and 1970s. back to Arafat and his mealy-mouthed double crossing, and same going forward. By doing nothing to help themselves, the Palestinians allowed for Hamas and Islamic Jihad and Iran to have the influence they have.

So to your question, @JLeslie I disagree. The so-called protestors would not have stopped. They want to air their purported grievances, because the ultimately are anarchists who want to “get their way”, except that there is not one single “their way” because they don’t know what they want.

If the protestors got everything they ask for – divestment, Israel back to 1967 borders, independent Palestinian state- then who would they blame when they fail? That’
s the issue – they know how to protest and be a victim, but they have no ability to govern. So they would have to create a new issue so they could continue being victims.

From the River to the Sea,
Thats what Israel’s Borders will always be.

@elbanditoroso I wasn’t asking if the protestors stopped, but rather if the protestors were asking for the hostages to be released and a ceasefire. There could be signs in the crowds for retreat of the settlements too. How about signs saying AntiHamas pro Palestinian. Just anything against Hamas’ methods. If people want the killing to stop then they have to stop encouraging Hamas’ violence and encourage a diplomatic solution. Protests during Vietnam were things like Make Love not War, Surrender, and Hell No We Won’t Go.

Many of the college students say they are protesting Israel killing so many Palestinians and want the university to divest from Israel in every way, and to stop the US funding of the Israeli army. I can understand that sentiment, the war and all of the deaths are upsetting.

Ignoring what happened on Oct. 7th does not help the Palestinian people. Some extremists are denying Oct 7th even happened, they think it is all made up. Some of the extremists are probably fine with the Palestinian deaths, because they feel it helps their cause to eliminate Israel, but I think most US college students don’t feel that way, I think they are upset seeing people die and they think their protests will put pressure on Israel to stop. I think maybe they have it backwards. Disapproval of Hamas is needed to bring the ceasefire. Encouraging Hamas is encouraging violence. They can disapprove of Hamas and Netanyahu, fine, but defending Hamas tactics is insane and kills Palestinians and will never bring peace.

If the students want to protest for the Gazan people aside from this current war that’s fine. It would be better for everyone over there if there was peace and prosperity and some sort of treaty so everyone can live safer and more freely. Although, I agree if their government and society fails if they are completely separate they will still claim victimhood.

Worth saying that from what I understand the West Bank is fairly modern now.

Yes, what if the protest hadn’t been a protest at all and had just been people quietly sitting in a room expressing their support for Israel? I’m not sure what the point of this pointless “thought experiment” is. If the protest had been something completely different, then yes, I guess the reaction would’ve been different. No shit. I’m sure Zionists would’ve been much more comfortable if the protest had been toothless, made no actual demands, and didn’t have anything critical to say about Israel’s genocide and just called for everyone to get along. The reason you’re uncomfortable with it is because it is genuinely subversive and you find yourself on the side of the police state and the ruling class, which is probably not the side you imagined yourself on when you were younger.

Pro-Palestinian protests are not limited to US college campuses, but are happening around the world and making similar demands. People know an oppressive state when they see one. People who find themselves against war in most circumstances often say things like “well, if it were to stop a genocide, then…” By that logic we should be invading Israel.

@Demosthenes I am not saying a protest should be small and unseen, I have no problem with protests, but there is a line. I am for Israelis and Palestinians not being murdered. That is what I am asking for in the Q, and most of the students on campus protesting probably think they are fighting for that too. Second to that would be a better situation altogether so both groups live safely with more freedom. Hamas will not be the answer for that goal and neither will Netanyahu for that matter. Hamas wants violence, just like the agitators in the protests want violence.

Many protesters at Columbia U were not students, they were outside agitators. NYPD did a few hundred arrests last night – no stats yet on who were students and who weren’t. They’re still processing the arrests and will put out stats now. I saw on the news, there were people who had tents at Columbia who were complaining that the cops destroyed their stuff. What did they expect? They were trespassing, after being told to leave days ago.

I’m pretty sure the total impact in the ME would be the same as now. But those that organized all these protests wouldn’t have paid for protesters to show up if it weren’t the current message.

Might the protests embolden Hamas to martyr more of their civilians because they see how using innocent Palestinians garners them global support.

Hamas isn’t martyring civilians that is being done by the IDF. Once Israel realises that its actions are losing it global support we might start to get somewhere.

@flutherother When Hamas builds their tunnel system and puts major gathering points under hospitals, that is using the civilians. If they didn’t use the civilians as human shields, there would be no IDF killing civilians. Face it, Hamas is a terrorist organization whose goal is genocide of Israel. You support this.

@flutherother Israel doesn’t really care about its lack of global support. All that matters is U.S. support. If we cut off funding to Israel, their military would crumble in a matter of days. And U.S. support is “ironclad”, so we will continue funding this genocide, and the usual suspects will continue to cheer it on. No amount of dead Palestinians is enough for them.

@flutherother I am not saying the IDF isn’t setting off the bombs, but Hamas knows what the Israeli reaction is going to be. Hamas does not care how many Palestinians die.

@seawulf575 Sparing civilians being used as a human shields is not supporting terrorism it is just acknowledging that some people are innocent. If this simple principle were followed there would be no genocide.

@flutherother Israel has built tent cities and has been evacuating civilians to them. That is not the action of a group that is bent on genocide. Your claim is nothing but fearmongering. You are supporting terrorists.

I see right now (Thursday morning) there’s a standoff between UCLA students and agitators vs the LAPD.

@flutherother Hundreds of thousands of Palestinians would be dead if Israel had left them in place. I’m not saying 30,000 dead is ok, I’m only saying I do think there is effort to preserve life. I think Israel is just DONE tolerating terrorists next door, and the Oct 7th attack was heinous enough to create some apathy in some Israelis who previously protested against Netanyahu and who always supported a better life for Palestinians and for peace.

@JLeslie I’d agree. You can’t have peace with your neighbors when they are sworn to kill you all. I think there is far less resistance to Netanyahu these days.

@seawulf575 Plenty of Israelis still hate Netanyahu. It’s just a huge mix of emotions right now. I think most Israelis at this point want the hostages home and the war to be over.

@JLeslie That is all probably true. But Bibi knows, as do most Israelis I imagine, that if all they do is get the hostages back and nothing more then Hamas will attack again and again in the future.

Israel’s goal is the annihilation of the Palestinians (by either killing them or pushing them out of Palestine) and likely the annexation of Gaza, and they will probably be able to pull it off, with the help of the U.S. And the genocide apologists in this thread will continue to defend them. October 7 was the result of Gazans getting sick of apartheid. It will happen again and again as long as the open-air prison of Gaza is maintained. Which is part of the reason why Israel is trying their best to push Gazans to the southern border and make Gaza largely uninhabitable.

^^Oh great. So whole of Israel told you that’s what they want? Amazing. You must be a very special person.

And what about Hamas, did they confide in you as well? Gave you great insight?

You’d have to have to have been willfully ignorant for the past several months to not see what’s going on. Which you probably were, since most pro-Israel Americans have to be to justify their support of genocide. Just keep defending 30,000+ dead Palestinians. It’s a great look.

You’re the one being ignorant. Hamas wants all Israelis dead.

And they will place whoever is available to die shielding them in their attempt to reach that goal.

Ask Hamas to stop doing that, using 30K people as shields.

Israel can certainly get away with murdering thousands of civilians as long as they claim “Hamas was hiding there!” And looks like their propaganda has succeeded.

^^Oh again great. So Hamas did tell you something. They left that area and went to…where?

@Demosthenes either was brainwashed or he seriously believes the stuff he is writing. Either way, it’s disconnected from facts and takes no account of history.

It’s not worth arguing the point because the stance will never change.

Hamas has been great at propaganda, no question about that. That doesn’t make it accurate.

Signed,

A Zionist Thug

@elbanditoroso Well you’re certainly self-aware of your blatant apologetics for genocide. Zionists can’t reckon with history because they know full well what happened in 1948 and what it takes to maintain the apartheid state they so defend. And they no Israel has no real claim to legitimacy.

@seawulf575 Israel has built tent cities and has been evacuating civilians to them. That is not the action of a group that is bent on genocide

I disagree. Forcing a civilian population to leave their homes and go to a specially constructed “tent city” could well be a precursor to their extermination. That is one of the lessons of history. Please don’t misunderstand me. I’m not saying I believe that to be Israel’s intention but it is hardly an argument in Israel’s favour and it may be illegal under the Geneva Conventions to which Israel is a signatory.

^^It will be interesting to see what happens regarding the accusations of disproportionality and other supposed breeches of the Geneva Convention. Israel consults lawyers who specialize in this constantly before they make moves. I am not any sort of expert, I don’t know where it will wind up, but I won’t be surprised if the majority of what Israel has done is found to be ok.

Keep in mind in Israel proper there are 1.5 million Palestinians who have the right to be citizens and vote, some choose not to get citizenship. Those Palestinians have more power to change Israel than Gazans if they bothered to exercise what is available to them. Israel is not attacking them.

@Demosthenes your claims make no sense whatsoever. Israel had control of the Gaza Strip and relinquished it as part of a peace treaty in the area. They kept oversight on it for a while, but let the citizenry elect their own leaders. None of those are the actions of a country that wants genocide and to have control of the area.

The citizenry elected Hamas as their leaders. Hamas has since denied the citizens any right to a free election. Hamas had in its charter that one of the prime purposes of their group is the goal of wiping Israel off the map along with anyone associate with it. You know…genocide of Jews. But still Israel didn’t do anything. They tried to work through issues, resorting to violence when it was visited upon them first….as it was this time.

Hamas uses the Palestinian citizenry as human shields. They do this so they can’t be easily held accountable for their actions, no matter how heinous. Meanwhile, Israel just built tent cities to move Palestinian citizens to so they are out of the way of the combat. That isn’t an action of a country that wants to commit genocide either. I’d be willing to be that eventually Hamas will try setting up camp in this tent city. They don’t want to lose their human shields.

Meanwhile you are supporting the group that went into Israel and killed a bunch of non-combatants (men, women and children) and took more hostages. Might want to look at what direction your moral compass is pointing.

@flutherother Oh FFS! you are presented with a fact that proves your fearmongering is way off base and you can’t admit you are wrong. You start making up more outlandish claims to try and be right. If Israel’s goal of building the tent city was just a precursor to killing the civilians, why bother? According to you their goal is genocide and they can do that more effectively leaving all the civilians in the line of fire. A line, I might add, that was created by Hamas.

And yeah, I’m sure trying to evacuate non-combatants is against the Geneva Convention. Get a life. Show me the statute.

The ongoing genocide of Palestinians and the complete destruction of Gaza and its infrastructure is evidence of genocide. What more fucking evidence do you need? How many more Palestinians need to die before you’re satisfied? You are defending an active genocide. I am not. You are the only one who needs to check their moral compass and question why you go to bat for a settler-colony that has been chipping away at Palestinian sovereignty, keeping Palestinians in a state of apartheid, displacing them, and killing thousands of them on a semi-regular basis.

The amount of blindness, ignorance, lies, and inhumanity needed to defend Israel is really on display today.

The ongoing holding of hostages shows Hamas does not care if Palestinians die. Both sides seem to be led by war mongers right now.

Except, let’s note that Israel has kept to their peace treaty with Egypt. There is every reason to believe Israel would abide by a peace treaty with the Palestinians.

How long is long enough that people don’t get to go back from unjust removal, UN decisions, or war? How many generations? I don’t know the answer.

Palestinians have a different definition of refugee than everyone else in the world as far as I know. They can be American and wealthy and be designated at refugees. https://www.unrwa.org/palestine-refugees# Their descendants are also considered refugees. Are Jews and their children in the US refugees because they had to leave Europe or the ME in the late 1930’s or 1940’s to live? I don’t understand that.

@Demosthenes What more evidence of genocide do I need? How about some actions by Israel that don’t argue against it? Yes, they have bombed the cities. I get that. Why did they do that? Because the elected leaders of the Gaza Strip are known terrorists that attacked Israel, took hostages, and then hid behind their own people to avoid retribution. But look at all the actions by Israel up to this skirmish and even during this skirmish. Not a single one of them makes any sense if their goal was genocide. They controlled the area. They gave up that control. They let the people have their own governance. And even now they are doing what they can to get people out of harms way. Throughout their existence, Israel has never initiated violence on this area. It has always been done in response to violence that has been done to them. These are not the actions of a country that wants to control an area and kill all the people living there. They just aren’t. Why can’t you acknowledge that? Because someone has chanted that Israel is doing genocide? Think for yourself! You are smarter than that.

Meanwhile, you are completely defending Hamas. This is a known terrorist group that has in their charter that one of their main purposes is the elimination of Israel and all it’s people. That is, of course, genocide. The are pretty much a theocracy waging a holy war. They raided Israel and killed men, women, and children, mainly civilians. They took hostages and still have not given them back. This is the caliber of person you see as just and right.