At least he’s being honest. I’d rather be told exactly what’s happening than be lead into a plan with false hope. Don’t bullshit me – just tell me how it is from the beginning. If you’re uncertain, then fine.

I completely agree with what Allie said. I would much rather have an honest leader compared to one who wasn’t sure of something and lied out their ass about it.

@Michale Your observations are astute.

“it took us a couple of days” to express outrage over the AIG bonuses “because I like to know what I’m talking about before I speak.”

I can get behind that..

What were you expecting from someone that took charge just two months ago during the heaviest world recession ever recorded? Could you do better than that?

Leadership means listening and understanding in first place. If you don’t even understand where’s the problem how you can guide your country out of it?

By the way, if you can do better please let me know. Economics nobel prize entry list is still open, they are all waiting for you ;)

The very smartest people I’ve ever known have not been afraid to say “I don’t know.” They also admit their mistakes. Personally, I find it all quite a breath of fresh air.

No. For all of the reasons given above.

I agree with all the answers above. I’d rather hear the truth then some glossy sugar coated coverup that makes the administration look good while screwing the American public.
I think some people in this country are waiting, poised and ready to strike, for any chance they have to berate Obama. I don’t think he’s a saint, but I think we need to give him a fair shake.

The kind of leaders you describe in your details will get the followers that are unable to see the reality of the situation for themselves (lots of those, unfortunately). The people who can appreciate the ambiguities and complexities of the situation will want to hear their leaders acknowledge them.

@adreamofautumn What’s worse is that the repubs and conservatives who a the loudest in dercying a 2month old administration, were completely silent for the 8 years of Bush and the republican Congress systematically destroying the nation. Now suddenly, they have so much to say. Funny though, none of them are presenting any new ideas. They just sing that same tired assed song, “taxcuts, less government.” Pathetic.

@Harp, those are the kind of ignorant followers repubs call their “base”

@The_unconservative_one :: I call them backwash.

edit :: props to colbert.!!

People are used to the confident lies of the past administration. The uncertain truths of this administration are a welcome change!

@Harp :“The kind of leaders you describe in your details will get the followers that are unable to see the reality of the situation for themselves (lots of those, unfortunately).”

Kind of describes Obama fervor doesn’t it? I’m certainly glad that everyone believes they are being told the truth, will be a comfort to them as they wait in the soup lines or dig in the garbage piles for food.

I have hoped and prayed that Obama would use all at his disposal to get the US on the track it needs to be on and am willing to give him a chance. I disliked Bush/Cheney very much.

I’m not republican nor democrat, I’m anti career politician. That is where my hopes were, new younger blood uncorrupted, but I am not pleased with the idea that throwing money at the people who created this crap is the proper way to deal with it.

Why is Obama hiring new government employees, do we need more???? How about a cut? What is his answer to the problem? Uncertainty? Does he not have at his disposal the entire brain trust of the US? With those resources, do you want to hear uncertainty?
If he does not know how to deal with it, how about getting it figured out instead of “I don’t know”?

The direction we are going is fine for me, I’m not rich so when the wealth gets redistributed I’ll probably be richer than I am now….. cool. I also live on a parcel of land that I can live off of, garden, deer, root cellar. It will be nice to just have a government check come every month that I don’t have to work for paid for by all them Republicans that everyone hates.

What are you going to do when the people that have accumulated wealth are drained dry by liberals spreading the wealth and creating new and more government programs? Are you willing to share yours, assuming you have over $250,000 net worth? If so, can you just eliminate the middle man and go ahead and send my check to me?

Thank you all you rich greedy bastards that are bringing this country to it’s knees, it’ll all be so much better when we are all on an equal financial footing. I’ll send you all a thank you note when I get my portion of your wealth that I deserve but am too damn lazy to earn for myself.

By the way, Michale, I agree with your observation.

@pekenoe You really should try to make more of an effort to learn the facts before you speak. You stated, “Are you willing to share yours, assuming you have over $250,000 net worth?” I assume what you mean is the $250k of income which is the cut off for tax increases, not net worth. Also, the tax increase on the wealthy is basically just a return to the rate that it was during the Reagan years, prior to the Bush tax cuts.

Secondly, you said, “The direction we are going is fine for me, I’m not rich so when the wealth gets redistributed I’ll probably be richer than I am now….. cool. I also live on a parcel of land that I can live off of, garden, deer, root cellar. It will be nice to just have a government check come every month that I don’t have to work for paid for by all them Republicans that everyone hates.”

I don’t have a clue what you are talking about here. There won’t be any “wealth redistribution” that is one of the right’s favorite lies to tell in order to stir up division, and class animosity among their gullible and hateful base. If you don’t already “receive a government check that you didn’t work for,” you won’t be receiving one. Whatever gave you that idea, I’ll never know. You say you aren’t a Repuke Republican or a Democrat. Maybe, but your rhetoric sounds like it came straight from the Fox Noise Channel.

@johnpowell Backwash. That’s a good word for them. They do nothing but repeat bullshit they have heard on the Faux news channel, without even considering checking things out for themselves. There are still people who are asking about his fucking birth certificate! Come on people, wake the hell up.

I think that after the previous administration’s arrogance and smugness, a man who admits he is not omniscient is quite refreshing.

Oh! Dalepetrie is writing a response! I can’t wait to see it!

If you define leadership in the way that the failed “leaders” of the past defined it, then perhaps some “rules” have been broken. But in my experience, I have seen two distinct kinds of leadership. There is one type of leadership which we’ve seen time and again, the show no fear, do as I say, don’t question my authority leadership, the kind displayed by GW Bush and other facists throughout history…goes something like this…baffle em with bullshit, repeat the lie enough times and enough people will believe it to give you the power you seek. And then there’s what I think of as inspirational leadership, in that it is a kind of leadership which acknowledges that maybe we don’t have all the answers at our fingertips, but we’ve got brains, we can figure this thing out, and we know there are going to be bumps along the way, but let’s try to do this the right way and be up front about it, admit our mistakes, admit our shortcomings, and if we do that, people will be more than willing to come along for the ride and even pitch in. I prefer the later type of leadership, it is more genuine, more honest. It seems that for too long, Americans have preferred the former, because it’s safer, because it’s built on illusions, not reality. It boils down to, do you want to inspire the kind of confidence that comes through hiding all the unpleasantness behind the scenes and acting like everything is going to be okay (as commedian Bill Hicks used to say, go back to sleep, America…)? Or do you want to have our leaders level with you so that you can actually have the voice in our Democracy that was promised to you by the founders of our nation?

I for one would much rather have our President say he’s not sure, but demonstrate that he is getting to the bottom of it, solicit input from the people, and then come back with a considered opinion that looks at all sides of the issue and tries to come up with the best solution, than the alternative. The alternative being a President who calls himself “the Decider”, who makes up his mind on a course of action and refuses to switch course and paints that as “a steady hand” when it’s really nothing more than stubbornness and a misguided sense of “father knows best”. But so prevalent is the stench that is the failed leadership of the past that we still have people who spout off about redistribution of wealth, because that’s what the fearless and failed leaders of the past have told them to expect, when in reality we’re talking about a very moderate (even in historical terms) increase in tax rates on the margins only of the highest wage earners and nothing more…yet some refuse to let the silly season of politics die and insist on throwing out complete unadulterated bullshit about how the government is going to pay people for doing nothing. I won’t even get into the differences between a hand up and a hand out because some have been too poisoned by the lies of those who were unwilling to cede control to be able to handle the truth. And THAT is the core differnce, if you can handle the truth, you’d rather have a leader who tells you when he doesn’t have the answers, if you can’t, you’d rather be lied to and told it’s all going to be OK, so you can go ahead and turn on American Idol, numb your mind and don’t worry your pretty little head about it.

As far as I’m concerned, Conservative thought has had 28 years to fuck up this country, and they’ve done a bang up job of it, and now we’re to the point where people don’t even recognize an honest politician (having never seen one). We have been hijacked and moved so far to the right in this country that a moderate like Obama looks like a friggin’ hippie radical, and I for one couldn’t be happier. Yes, this sucks, I’ve been hit hard by this downturn personally myself, but I shudder to think how much worse it would have been if McCain had won the election…we probably wouldn’t even KNOW that AIG was giving these bonuses. I say to stop us from going to hell in a handbasket, we need to know that we’re in that fucking basket and heading south, and it is EXACTLY the fact that Obama is not afraid to tell us we’re in the basket that makes him an impressive leader who inspires a following, rather than bullshitting his way into one as we’ve seen far too often before.

@The_unconservative_one : It’s certainly refreshing to hear from one who is assuming he knows what I’m talking about so he can make negative assumptions based on assumptions????

An inept government which tried to hide its ignorance is just as bad as an inept government who is honest about it. I appreciate the honesty more, but I don’t want to rip your guts out any less.

@ubersiren : Perfect!

I prefer to know that my president does not think he is correct all the time. I want to know that the prez knows he makes mistakes and is unsure. I want to know that he is open to suggestions and learning. Fuck that authoritative bullshit. I’m too smart to be comforted by lies and facades.

@pekenoe That wasn’t based on any assumptions. It was based on your own words. In case you forgot what you wrote:

“I’m not rich so when the wealth gets redistributed I’ll probably be richer than I am now….. cool. I also live on a parcel of land that I can live off of, garden, deer, root cellar. It will be nice to just have a government check come every month that I don’t have to work for paid for by all them Republicans that everyone hates.”

Or how about this blast from the past?

“What are you going to do when the people that have accumulated wealth are drained dry by liberals spreading the wealth and creating new and more government programs? Are you willing to share yours, assuming you have over $250,000”

Here’s a golden oldie for ya

“Thank you all you rich greedy bastards that are bringing this country to it’s knees, it’ll all be so much better when we are all on an equal financial footing. I’ll send you all a thank you note when I get my portion of your wealth that I deserve but am too damn lazy to earn for myself.”

Hmmm, somehow it doesn’t look like assumptions, once your feeble attempt at sarcasm is removed from the equation. When you look at it, it looks like a hit parade of favorite conservative rap, doesn’t it. Please, lay off the Hannity, O’Reilly and Limbaugh rap music.

I think Obama is being realistic about the state of America rather than the previous 5 presidents who were more about platitudes than straight talk.

@The_Compassionate_Heretic
I’d have to agree, he is working like he doesn’t care about getting reelected.
That’s what i would want in any President.

@fireside Agreed!

@The_Compassionate_Heretic : How about you actually read my post with open eyes instead of your liberalized sunglasses. You still have not a clue what I said.

Damn right I’m conservative, I worked my ass off for what I have and never held my hand out for anything.

Take your ultra liberal hype and throw it at someone else.

@pekenoe – I think you are mistaking the meaning of “ultra liberal hype”
The_Compassionate_Heretic said “the past five Presidents” that wasn’t a party line statement.

Maybe you weren’t reading this thread with your eyes open? I think you might have been referring to someone else.

chanting like a zombie “Taaaaax cuuuuts! Leeeeess Goooovervnment! Redistribuuuuuution of weeeealllth! ” Repeat ad-nauseum.

@The_unconservative_one – don’t forget Soooocccciiiiaaaaalllliiiisssssmmmmm…......

LOL @dalepetrie ! Yeah! How could I forget????

Enlighten me, what’s the difference between your beliefs and socialism? I may be mistaken.

@pekenoe – well it seems simple enough to me, but in Socialism, the government owns and controls the means of production and distribution, and distributes wages equally. In my worldview, the free market is a good thing, but it needs to be tempered with common sense. And I believe greater skill should reap greater rewards. I agree that profit motive will drive efficiency, but it will also allow the haves to step on the have nots in favor of making a larger profit. The government’s role is to keep its citizens safe, not to hinder the captains of industry from making profit…it’s more about keeping them from making a profit on the backs of the less fortunate. And I also see the government as the sole entity engaged in ensuring the common good. It is the thing that can provide those things we can’t provide for ourselves (without being very fortunate), such as roads and schools and such. The government’s role is to put people on an equal footing to begin with, and then let them go as far as their skills will take them, and to help those unfortunate few who fall through he cracks through no fault of their own along the way to become self sufficient again.

But we’ll always have dimwits who want to equate a 1/2% increase in the taxes paid on income over and above the first $250k to Socialism. To that I say you’ve had your 3 decades, now we’re going to do it right.

@dalepetrie Let’s not forget, he is also coming to take their fucking guns away too eye roll

@dalepetrie : The things you are in favor of are not against my way of thinking, they are not socialist. I in no way condone the actions of the government over the last 20 years regardless of who was in charge. The republicans want to make every man woman and child in the US dependent on the government the same as the democrats do, they just have a different approach. The dems approach from the bottom with a let us care for you approach while the reps enter from the top with corporate subsidies.

I would like to see the government get the hell out of our lives and leave the micromanaging up to us. I have no problem helping one who is trying to help themselves, I have a problem with freeloaders and entitilists. Work was what made this country, not seeing how much you can get from your government.

You are a long way from a Liberal in my estimation, thanks for the lenghty comment.

@fireside : You’re right, sorry, my bad.

Directed at unconservative. I apologize to you…... The_Compassionate_Heretic.

I must have had em crossed or maybe closed.

@pekenoe – Cross-eyed definitely happens after too many hours of Fluther

@pekenoe – but FYI, I DO consider myself to be a liberal, just not a Democrat. I’m not really into the whole get the govt. out of out lives…I DO favor a bottom up approach to a top down one, but both sides go TOO far. Dems have been guilty of trying to save everyone, even those who would just as soon kick back and live off someone else’s efforts, but to my way of thinking, Republicans have been FAR worse, basically exploiting that distasteful fact to win favor with people who would never support their (you have it exactly right) top down, every man at the bottom for himself philosophies (it’s ironic how many hardcore conservatives decry welfare, then support giving welfare to the least needy of all because “they create jobs”.)

Supply and demand doesn’t work that way, you can create a job out of whole cloth if you want, and staff it with unemployed people, but who’se going to buy the outputs of your labor? If however you help people lift themselves up (notice I didn’t say to LIFT them up, but to help themselves do so), they will then have money to buy things, which someone has to make, and therefore there is a REASON to create that job, then people staff it, more people are employed, that raises EVERYONE’s standard of living, suddenly more people can buy more things, creating more demand, causing the need for more supply…prosperity trickles up, not down. And I like Obama a great deal because he gets that.

Now I’m all for libertarianism as it relates to social issues, what we do with our bodies is our own business, we shouldn’t be told who we can marry, who we can sleep with, etc….but far too often people who think of themselves as liberatarian have all sorts of rules that go along with it about how everyone else should live their lives. The problem with liberarianism as I see it is not just that you have to apply it to everything, but that if you DO apply it to all facets, economically, that means you believe in an unfettered free market, where there are no rules. And government needs to be there to look out for the collective wellfare of its citizens in my opinion.

I believe every American should have certain inallienable rights:

1) Food
2) Shelter
3) Clothing
4) Education
5) Retirment
6) Healthcare
7) Safety/Security (both physical and economic, i.e. you shoudln’t just be allowed to fall through the cracks if you fall on hard times through no fault of your own).

I think we need to build roads and schools and libraries, I think we need to combat poverty, I think we need to ensure people can go to the doctor when they’re sick, that they can retire when their bodies are no longer capable after a life’s honest work, I think that we need to ensure that if you lose your health/ability to provide for you, society should help you out. Where I differ from many Dems is I feel if you are not willing to get a job, fuck you…you should starve to death, I have no sympathy. But I do think we need a host of services that we can’t just as individuals provide for ourselves, and that includes all those things and national defense, and police/fire, things to keep you safe. And I believe that the government needs to play a role in regulating the players in the free market so they don’t victimize people.

But what The unconservative one and I are talking about is this right wing drum beat where any movement away from completely unfettered free markets, or towards taking care of the needs of the members of society is decried as Socialism, they accuse people of trying to take away the hard earned money of the job creators and give it to poor lazy people. They demonize the victims of our free market so that we can not feel guilty about turning the other cheek.

When you get right down to it, I’ve heard that less than 2% of people receiving public assistance of any kind honestly don’t need it, but to hear the drumbeat of the conservatives, you’d think that only 2% actually do. And the problem is that people who have the money have paid for political influence…they’ve bought and sold all our lawmakers several times over, so these policies are supported. It’s wrong and Obama will stop it, that’s what I think.

@dalepetrie You have effectively explained the core difference between conservatives and liberals. The two approaches are diametrically opposed to one another. Lately the conservatives have taken to proclaiming themselves as Libertarians. They ARE NOT. @dalepetrie , if they still claim not to understand after that excellent explanation, they either aren’t interested in understanding, already understood and just want to hold on to their hatred or they are fucking clueless. In either case, that is one of the reasons I am so against that failed ideology.

@dalepetrie I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again: You’re frickin brilliant. I love it every time you post, especially on political topics. You are clearer than just about anyone. I always learn something from you.

@dalepetrie You have my undying lurve.

@The_unconservative_one That was a great link… thanks for sharing!

@augustlan No problem, glad you enjoyed it.

@dalepetrie : All good and valid points, I agree.

Too many people have a picture of a conservative in their minds just as I have a picture of a liberal in mine that may not fill the bill.

You, my friend, do not fit the descrption of liberal (at least not in my mind). You may not be a conservative either, geeee, maybe what you are espounding is what we need. I agree with your views 100% so far. Shouting, chest pounding and name calling such as unconservative one serves no one.

You are the most conservative minded liberal I have come into contact with, most on this site want the government to supply their every need whether they are willing to work for it or not. As you, I think that if they are dead wood and are capable of working of working but choose not too, then let em starve and freeze to death. If they are willing and are trying, give em help.

Guns….. the gun toting fanatics are shooting themselves in the foot. Give up people killing weapons… why do you need one anyway?? If they would give a little, maybe we could keep our sporting rifles, they’re gonna keep fighting this till all guns are taken away.

I hope your wishes about Obama are true, I wish him well too. It would be great to have a president that genuinely cared about the grunts and worked for them tirelessly instead of caving in. We’ll see. Bush didn’t even know that the price of gasoline was over $3 a gallon, how people were stupid enough to elect him once was beyond me, but to do it again?????

Anyway, just let me know when you are running for president, you have my vote.

To all, I greatly appreciate the props. And @pekenoe, I think what you’re saying illustrates a great problem in the liberal conservative debate. I consider myself to be more liberal and you consider yourself to be more conservative, yet I think on most core issues we agree. I don’t think it’s that 50% of America IS as conservative as they vote, it’s that to people like you, who clearly mean well, they’ve been lied to about what liberalism really is. I honestly don’t know ANYONE who considers himself a liberal who thinks we should waste government money…that may surprise you. None of my liberal friends thinks that we should support lazy people. We all hate when we see people abusing the system every bit as much as conservatives do. But lying ass politicians have convinced people that it’s this pandemic and that liberals want to just throw money at the poor and let them spend it on drugs and boooze, and because of that, Republicans get way more votes than they really ought to.

So it flatters me to hear that I’d get your vote, but I’ll tell you right now, I’m no politician, I speak too much truth to ever run for elected office, plus I don’t look the role, I don’t have any connections, and for me the jury is out on the whole God question…I know I’m a good person with a good head on my shoulders, but I would be DESTROYED…they would call me an athiest, a Satan worshipper, a radical, a Communist, a Socialist…and good, reasonable people who when you get right down to it believe the same things I do would never DREAM of voting for me.

I’ll give you something to chew on. A lot of people on the right think Obama is this radical left winger, not realizing that when you look at political attitudes, he’s actually to the right of moderate (in fact of the 20 people who were running for President at the begining of 2007, only Kucinich and Gravel were actually left of center, EVERYONE else was right). Even your most liberal Democrats in the grand scheme of things are actually fairly conservative from a true reading of things, because our entire system is based on a free market, and no one has ever run on the idea that we should socialize everything (and become socialists).

Now many Dems and liberals, myself included, DO think we should socialize the entire medical system, and I’ll tell you why. Because it serves the public interest. It does not serve anyone but the drug and insurance companies to have drugs that cost several hundred dollars a month that only treat the symptoms but don’t cure the disease, and then to have insurance that costs several hundred dollars a month that fewer and fewer people can even afford. Nothing is getting cured anymore because treatments are more lucrative. One sixth of our population can’t even afford insurance. Millions of people have lost everything they’ve worked their entire lives for because of a disease, illness or injury that just happened to them. THAT’s NOT RIGHT. I support fully socializing the entire medical field to take the profit motive out of it for the good of our society. And I DO believe Doctors and Research Scientists should be paid a LOT of money, to avoid a brain drain (and because they’re worth it), but I DON’T think if you go to the hospital, you should get $30,000 worth of bills from 20 different people, that’s just assinine. I don’t think when people lose their jobs they should have to suddenly be paying $1,000 per month for insurance, while their only source of income is $1,500 a month for unemployment. How do you eat? How do you pay your mortgage? Medical costs are a crisis and it’s BECAUSE of the profit motive…people are not being protected or having their interests looked out for. Again, perfect example of an issue that Republicans would try to slap the “socialist”, “distribution of wealth” drumbeat onto just like @The_unconservative_one was saying.

So, I’ll close by saying this…a lot of conservatives tried to do this to Obama, and the reason he won is because they weren’t successful this time. Sure, with those who have been sold the conservative viewpoint that the lazy are out to steal from the rich (kind of ridiculous when you put it that way, but there it is), a lot of them didn’t buy it, but a lot realized that what the Republicans were saying didn’t fit the profile this time. They really didn’t fit the profile for Gore or Kerry or Dukakis either, but it was easy to paint them that way, because these guys played by the old rule book…they didn’t want to come off as defensive, so they didn’t effectively defend themselves.

Obama did EXACTLY what I’m doing here….he used words to clarify his point, he got his message across, and it came in clearer than the message of those who tried to demonize him as a radical liberal. But you know why I and many others voted for him? The ones of us who never bought into that idea that all liberals just want to give away money to the lazy poor? It’s because of what he said in 2004 at the keynote speech at the DNC. Here is the most important thing he said that night:

“Now, don’t get me wrong. The people I meet—in small towns and big cities, in diners and office parks—they don’t expect government to solve all their problems. They know they have to work hard to get ahead, and they want to. Go into the collar counties around Chicago, and people will tell you they don’t want their tax money wasted, by a welfare agency or by the Pentagon. Go in—Go into any inner city neighborhood, and folks will tell you that government alone can’t teach our kids to learn; they know that parents have to teach, that children can’t achieve unless we raise their expectations and turn off the television sets and eradicate the slander that says a black youth with a book is acting white. They know those things.

People don’t expect—People don’t expect government to solve all their problems. But they sense, deep in their bones, that with just a slight change in priorities, we can make sure that every child in America has a decent shot at life, and that the doors of opportunity remain open to all.

They know we can do better. And they want that choice.”

To me, that was it…that really described to me what it means to be a LIBERAL. I think many people who think they are conservatives don’t really realize what a true liberal is, and they demonize us, and they don’t get that all we want, all we’ve EVER wanted, was a guy like Obama who didn’t either just stick up for buisness, or conversely, who didn’t do a good enough job of explaining what their views were about, so those who were entrenched in power, those who DID only have the best interests of the already wealthy and powerful at heart, could not twist that into something that sounded like bleeding heart, socialist, communist, insert bad, scary thing here. Republicans for decades repeated that lie which said any move to help people, takes away the incentive for captains of industry to create jobs…it was a lie when Nixon said it, it was a lie when Reagan said it, it wa a lie when both Bushes said it, and it’s still a lie. But now Obama has come along, and he’s used his words to articulate that it is a lie, and it helps that we are now seeing how destructive that lie was to our economy first hand. And guys like me are on boards like this, winning over one person at a time.

I think you need to reconsider what liberalism is, and seek out a few liberals and ask them if they believe what YOU think they believe, or if they believe what I’ve stated. I think you’d be shocked.

@dalepetrie : Being brainwashed for a lifetime is hard to erase.

On both sides the ones that get the ink are the ones that scream the loudest.

I like Obama, I think that a lot of “way left liberals” that voted for him are going to be largely disappointed and I think that the “way right conservatives” that are throwing a fit are going to be disappointed also (for different reasons though). It would be nice if both ends could see the middle.

It’s all kinda like the gun control issue, abortion, racial, religious, and environmental issues, if everyone would meet in the middle and try to work out something that would be the best for the most, problems solved. But, as long as each side is entrenched and throwing barbs, refusing to give, nothing will be accomplished and we will sink a bit deeper into this pit.

I would love to see a third party actually work, a lot have tried and a lot have failed.

A right now happening is I think an example of the different cultures and different ideals of this nation. Would New Orleans after Katrina have been different if the people of Fargo ND lived there instead of the ones who do? In Fargo, everyone…. school kids, people from neighboring towns, anyone able bodied, got off their butts and worked their asses off to prepare, they did not stand on the streets and hollar for the government to bail them after the fact. They did not hollar for help in preparation, they rolled up their sleeves and got to work, did what they could even though it’s cold n nasty.

That’s a tribute as to how I think it should be, we take care of ourselves and our own. If…. we need a bit of extra help, we’ll ask, but most of the time it’s handled without big brother. Therein lies (in my opinion) a part of the conservative-liberal divide. We are fiercely independent and self sufficient, we are therefore labeled as ultra conservative. We are proud that we are who we are.

Lurve your posts

I forgot to add this… Rush is a raving lunatic, worse than any liberal I can think of.

^^^ Stinks like racism.^^^

@tinyfaery : Yes, you do.

Some people just do not know when to shut up and keep their inflammatory crap to themselves.

ooh..good one.~

@pekenoe You are making yourself appear to be a liar as well as uninformed. Where did I call you any names?? Don’t lie, it is unbecoming.

@pekenoe Racist shit like this is why your ideology sucks.

“A right now happening is I think an example of the different cultures and different ideals of this nation. Would New Orleans after Katrina have been different if the people of Fargo ND lived there instead of the ones who do? In Fargo, everyone…. school kids, people from neighboring towns, anyone able bodied, got off their butts and worked their asses off to prepare, they did not stand on the streets and hollar for the government to bail them after the fact. They did not hollar for help in preparation, they rolled up their sleeves and got to work, did what they could even though it’s cold n nasty.”

@tinyfaery it stinks like racism, because it is racism.

I also wonder if what happened in New Orleans influenced the way the people of Fargo reacted. Would they have been so quick to do it for themselves had they not seen the utter failure of government officials in the earlier instance?

Thanks. I’m glad to know it wasn’t just me.

Wow. I was enjoying this conversation and Dale’s treatises. I appreciated your response, pekenoe – it is rare that a liberal and conservative can have a civil conversation and stay open to seeing things differently.

I see how your comment could be interpreted as racist, but I’m giving you the benefit of the doubt that you didn’t mean it that way, especially after you demonstrated your willingness to take in a well-reasoned argument.

[Mod says] Personal attacks are not permitted, and have been removed.

@trustinglife I usually would have given the benefit of the doubt, except other posts have shown pekenoe to truly hold racist and homophobic views. Especially when he pmd me with “you make it hard to like black queers.” I might be queer, but black? I guess he assumes only black people will stand up to racist views.

I’m going to chime in on this, but I’m glad that the personal attacks have been removed, no matter what two Flutherites might think of each other, this is not the forum in which to get nasty with each other.

I look at the comment re Katrina vs. Fargo and I see how it COULD be interpreted as racist, but I also see how it could be intended without a thought towards race. Bottom line, with the internet, it’s hard to discern intent, and I think some of the comments may, as tinyfaery states, have more to do with a pattern of past posts perceived (wow, look at that aliteration), as racist and this falling onto that. Not having seen these posts in question, I can’t really make the call, and I will demure from taking sides in this debate. One thing I have certainly learned about hot button issues such as the accusation of racism however is that what happens is both sides think they’re right and get dug in, and then it just degenerates into something that is not useful. It is very easy for a person of the liberal persuasion to see racism where it might not necessarily exist, as we encounter patentily racist conservatives on a nearly daily basis, and therefore there is a built in oversensitivity, which at worst can lead to rampant political correctness. On the other side of the coin, there are plenty of racist conservatives who don’t even realize that they’re racist…I think of it almost as the Archie Bunker syndrom…they may not mean any harm, but their ignorance shows itself time and again. I’m not saying either thing happened here, but I am saying that regardless of what the truth is, @pekenoe doesn’t perceive himself to be a racist, and @The_unconservative_one and @tinyfaery do perceive him to be one, and no amount of arguing or sniping about a label like that is going to get both sides to agree, so it’s for the best that a mod has jumped in to cool things off.

Now, if y’all are still around and listening, I would however like to point out why I personally take issue with the comparison of Fargo to NOLA. I don’t think the main problem is the racial underpinnings (if any), it’s the lack of perspective. I lived in Fargo when I was 3–4 years old, and one of my first memories is my dad pumping floodwaters out of our basement. Floods happen in Fargo ALL THE TIME. The Red River floods every spring, some times it only affects a few, some times it’s really bad. But if you live in Fargo, that’s part of the deal, every spring you get out there and sandbag, it’s expected. And you know when the snow starts to melt there are going to be problems…it’s not a matter of if it will flood, but how high the river will crest. There is zero element of surprise.

In New Orleans, for over 100 years, the city’s system of water management has done an AMAZING thing…it has kept a city which is both ON the ocean, AND under sea level, dry, 100% of the time. So, there was no precedent, unlike Fargo…this was not only not a yearly occurrence like Fargo, but it was an occurrence that no living resident had ever seen. They had probably never sandbagged in their lives, they had never lived through a flood, and they didn’t know what you do. Second, unlike Fargo where the mayor is saying on a daily basis, “brace for the worst”, you had a city in NOLA where the city planners ignored scientific evidence that the flood walls were not strong enough in the event of a cat 4 or 5 hurricane, the people were TOLD there was nothing to worry about. Also, unlike a river that runs through your backyard which will rise and fall like clockwork, a hurricane is something that until hours before it hits, it’s impossible to tell where it might make landfall…those things change directions all the time.

So to me, it’s not really a stretch that we didn’t see the same kind of response, and THAT is exactly what I’m talking about when I say that conservatives have this nasty tendency of demonizing people as lazy by passing judgement without all the facts. Fact is, the people of NOLA did nothing wrong, they WERE victims, and as I see it, the government DID drop the ball, it SHOULD have had a quicker response, and there was NO excuse for our commander in chief to commend the head of FEMA for doing a great job when people were stuck on their fucking roofs for a week. So, though I don’t think that quip was racist, I think it was judgemental and ignorant, and it’s just another example of blaming the victims.

The difference between liberals and conservatives when I see something like this becomes clear to me…it’s empathy. We primarily believe the same things when you get right down to it (with a few hot button exceptions), but liberals put themselves in the victims’ shoes and ask themselves, how would I want the government to respond differently if that were me, and conservatives look at it from the view of the taxpayer, see how much it cost them personally and say, what more do you expect from us, take some responsibility for yourselves why dontcha? Though both sides believe in personal responsibility, Conservatives far too often demonize the victims so they don’t have to feel guilty when turning the other cheek in the name of “fiscal conservatism”.