Fluther: What is your opinion of Fluther as of late?

Who, then, has the authority to define what a ‘good’ question is? Any question which inspires discussion is, in my opinion, a question worth asking. I don’t see it rational to have some sort of governing body decide which questions are acceptable and which are not. Ultimately, that should be up to the people to decide. “Will my dick fit in Obamas mouth?” would most certainly get flagged as inappropriate and thus removed.

@Mtl_zack

I pretty much agree. A website shouldn’t define what its own niche is and then expect that everyone else fall in line. Largely, the users should define what they want from the site, and thus what should be allowed. Obviously there are limits to that, but you get the idea.

Ivan (13479

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@La_chica_gomela But the thing is, when the questions get worse, less people will answer, and then less activity will be seen and then less good questions will be asked and then less people will answer…

It’s all cyclical until we get a big influx like New York Times articles or Apple frontpages.

Mtl_zack (6778

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@johnpowell- Now you’ve got me wondering. Will it?

AstroChuck (37609

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@Ivan : The Nazis decide. Read the last blog entry for clarification.

jrpowell (40562

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@AstroChuck : yes, it will.

jrpowell (40562

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@johnpowell YAY GODWIN STRIKES AGAIN :P

El_Cadejo (34610

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@Mtl_zack: We just had a big influx [the wisdomers]! What more do you want??

La_chica_gomela (12574

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@johnpowell Well at least you admit it. See the second half of my comment.

Ivan (13479

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Everything changes. Maybe you are getting some overflow from a failed site elsewhere, but there are some quality people that have come here.

Realize please that this situation will change soon too. Some users will stay and some will leave. However it would speak ill of the site in general if the site were to suddenly split in two over something as small as a migration of users from another site.

The_Compassionate_Heretic (14634

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This sure helped to clear things up:
http://blog.fluther.com/blog/2009/04/06/more-policy-tweaks-and-new-jellytable/

VzzBzz (2784

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@La_chica_gomela Ya, but that influx was different because this is the way I saw it, it might not actually be the case they were constrained to the rules already made, and there was no room for them to influence the collective. They didn’t bring their spice with them from the “old country”.

The Wis.dmers came when? A month ago? That’s when these new rules were coming into place, and their spice was taken away from them. Variation and different colourful opinions are what makes a community interesting. What’s a soup with one flavour that tatstes the same everyday. We need something interesting and thought proviking that only fresh minds can bring.

Mtl_zack (6778

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@Ivan : Bullshit. They “Bendrew” pay the bills and keep the servers running. They can decide what is here. They do a pretty good job of it. And so do the 10+ that help them with it.

jrpowell (40562

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@Mtl_zack i am in no way against new users. There have been quite a few that came from the wis.dm migration that i think are great. Im just against poor quality. Thats all :P

El_Cadejo (34610

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Certainly they can decide what is here. No one is questioning their authority in the matter. The real question of significance is whether they should decide what is here.

@Mtl_zack

Indeed, that is precisely how I feel.

Ivan (13479

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What uber said. I like most (95%) of the wis.dm refugees. Five percent of them are whiny dicks.

jrpowell (40562

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Devi was right… made of FAIL….
Quality decline has nothing to do with anything but the cyclical nature of things.

oh yeah… FLAMEBAIT!!!

Dr_C (14339

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I’m not saying that anyone is against the newcomers. In fact, I want newcomers, and their refreshing opinions and different takes on the world. What I’m saying is that the old influxes were great because they weren’t restrained. The Wis.dm migration was restrained, and they couldn’t spice it up even if they tried because of these new moderation processes that the mods are putting into place.

Mtl_zack (6778

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@Mtl_zack the mods are putting these new rules into place because of all the problems they had with their migration though…..

El_Cadejo (34610

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The last two days for me have been a breath of fresh air, I really see it turning around.
There’s still a way to go, and I’m cool with that. I miss the old days, but doesn’t everyone miss the old days of something?

It’s a new age. Right? :)

asmonet (21445

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what makes a good question? a well placed question mark.

you put an exclamation on that shit and no one’s gonna know what you’re getting at.

eponymoushipster (20297

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Do you remember when you could scroll down a thread and not bump into a fight in progress? it was a simpler time… a time of wonder and merriment… a time when jellies frolicked freely in the ever growing expanse of their imaginations….

where was i going with this?

Dr_C (14339

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@Dr_C hell?

eponymoushipster (20297

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@eponymoushipster nice… you driving? :p

Dr_C (14339

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@uberbatman What problems? People were asking what was on their minds. This is a social question and answer site, to me at least, look below.

What I suggest is that we make a mission statement, made of everyone’s input not on a weekday at 7 AM Eastern time or 2 AM in New Zealand. We can agree what the purpose of Fluther is, and how to maintain that purpose. We can update this every once in a while, to see how the site evolves and compare notes. And it should be seperate from the guidelines.

It seems like a handful of people (Bendrew) are deciding what gets to be asked and what doesn’t. They have the right, as you said, they are paying the bills. However, they are responsible for a group of people too. This is a community, and freedom of speech is a basic human right. There are limitations to this however. A constitution is binding the individual to a specific area, but we have to make flex room. If we make the primary sentence in a constitution There must be flexroom for this constitution, then there could be freedom of speech without going overboard.

Mtl_zack (6778

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@Dr_C dude, i run the bus.

eponymoushipster (20297

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@Mtl_zack problems such as assloads of questions that went against the already in place guidelines. And no really theres no such thing as freedom of speech on a website that you dont own. They decide how much freedoms we have. If we dont like it, we leave.

El_Cadejo (34610

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Love it or leave it, right?

Ivan (13479

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Boss man has arrived. meep.

asmonet (21445

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@Ivan uhh yes pretty much. I cant think of a single website on the internet that functions any differently than that.

El_Cadejo (34610

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covers balls

jrpowell (40562

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covers johnpowell’s balls

eponymoushipster (20297

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Hides behind John Powells balls

Dr_C (14339

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Well, I can, but that’s largely irrelevant. The argument is wholly illogical regardless of how many people adhere to it.

Ivan (13479

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But seriously… The quality has gone to shit. I used to read everything, now I barely read anything. Dailykos.com FTW.

jrpowell (40562

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@Mtl_zack: It’s not a social question site. Just sayin’.

asmonet (21445

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And why does everyone get their panties in a twist because the world doesn’t conform to their desires?

You were the kids that always had a dozen Ataris and Nintendos on every floor of your house including your basement kiddy game room, weren’t you?

This ain’t your party, you’re a guest. The front door is open.

grr.

asmonet (21445

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Watch the podcast to learn why this was made.

jrpowell (40562

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Websites are technically a corporation, or an owned entity, but what happens when that entity is a community? In a community, there is interaction between members, there are disputes, and there are joyous occasions. When you bring a community into an entity that is controlled by an oligopoly, that group of people who are controlling the site are responsible for the other members, much like many governments in the world. Bendrew has literally become the Fluther gods you may laugh, but hear me out, the mods are the police/administrators/judicial system and me, @johnpowell, @Ivan, @Dr_C and any other member is a contributor to the community, and therefore has rights.

Mtl_zack (6778

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@Mtl_zack LOL. Yea, you have the right to hit the road if you dont enjoy the site.

El_Cadejo (34610

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@Mtl_zack: Enjoying a service, a private service does not give you a say in how it’s run or any rights within it. Community or no. We’re guests. Get used to it.

asmonet (21445

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There is no resentment over the fact that Fluther does not conform to our every wish. There is resentment over the notion that our wishes are worthless and offensive. We merely want to have an open discussion over what would help to improve the site. You seem to want the exact opposite.

I think it is the idea that we are merely the lowly peons who are granted access to the royal palace but not allowed to touch anything that is the only point of contention here.

Ivan (13479

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Umm, why don’t we all stop posting until we hear what Andrew has to say?

augustlan (47745

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Oh Ivan. That is total bullshit. What the fuck is the jelly table for?

jrpowell (40562

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@Ivan: Until you know the site for more than two weeks, I really don’t think you have much to contribute. Nor do I believe you have an understanding of the community that would benefit you in your approach.

So, I respectfully disagree.

asmonet (21445

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damn jp beat me too it…

El_Cadejo (34610

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@uberbatman This is completely hypothetical, but what if me and many of the other flutherites who give great responses and pose very intellectual discussions just left. We go. Bye bye. Saronara. You’re questions would be unanswered, and you would be missing out. Then, Fluther goes down, way down.

The same goes for governments. If a group of people just leave the country, they leave their jobs, they leave the military, everything is vulnerable. The economy fails, the military fails, the government fails and the country is just a barren pit.

Mtl_zack (6778

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I’d still be here?

asmonet (21445

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@asmonet Not if you were treated like shit like @Ivan just was by you.

Mtl_zack (6778

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And people would step up and fill your place, honestly…you’re replaceable.
We all are.

It’s the internet.

asmonet (21445

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Response moderated

I have said nothing that would be labeled as treating him “like shit.”

asmonet (21445

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@Mtl_zack uhhh hypotheticaly a bunch of us jellies leave then there would be less great questions/answers thats it. I doubt all of fluthers community will suddenly vanish one day. And even so just because we can threat to leave, that doesnt give us any “rights” what-so-ever. That just makes us assholes.

El_Cadejo (34610

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[mod says] Personal attacks will be removed.

augustlan (47745

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I’m taking Auggie’s advice and remaining silent until andrew posts.

asmonet (21445

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Oooh! Act V of Hamlet. My favorite.

nom nom—> popcorn

kevbo (25672

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^Win.

K, now I’m done.

asmonet (21445

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somebody’s got to say it: CAN’T WE ALL JUST GET ALONG?!

eponymoushipster (20297

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“Though this be madness, yet there is method in ‘t.” Hamlet quote (Act II, Scene II).

Dog (25152

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@johnpowell I don’t want you putting words in my mouth. This is the problem, Fluther is being dominated by a single set of rules that no one except for the major players can change.
@asmonet You’re treating him as inferior in some way just because you’ve been here longer. And I’m just _really pissed at @johnpowell‘s hate.

@uberbatman Wouldn’t less great questions be bad for you? Isn’t this what made you start this thread? You started this because you were complaining that there weren’t enough good answers/questions.

Mtl_zack (6778

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If too many good people leave and there is a significant lack of good questions for a while, I promise to take up the slack and keep each and every one of you stimulated.

Bluefreedom (22944

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You will not be the judge of whether or not I have something to contribute. I may be a newcomer to Fluther but I am not a newcomer to Q/A sites, social networks, Internet communities, or website design.

Haha. I don’t hate Fluther. Actually, contrary to the implication of this question, I was actually enjoying my time here over the past few days as opposed to the initial few. Most people here are relatively interesting and polite. You may hate me, but that’s OK. My stay here was never dependent on whether or not I was well liked or even on whether or not I enjoyed the site. Wis.dm needed a new home; I was going wherever they were going.

Oh, and the ‘love it or leave it’ argument doesn’t get any less nonsensical the more times you use it.

Ivan (13479

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@asmonet @Bluefreedom Easier said than done. Take 12 hour shifts so that the whole world that uses the internet can use this site, not just you.

Mtl_zack (6778

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@Mtl_zack uhh well say fluther went through your hypothetical holocaust of great users, id probably be on my way out too…

El_Cadejo (34610

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Ohhh Andrew, where are you?

augustlan (47745

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You know what, no. I’m not waiting.

I only shared my opinion, two weeks is not sufficient to understand the culture. I said nothing offensive. And I don’t appreciate you both saying otherwise.

What is your problem, guys?

asmonet (21445

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@uberbatman: The new guidelines were not, in fact, placed due to the influx of new users. They’ve been addressing the general reduction in thoughtfulness that’s been happening over the last year—but in the last few days, since the new policy has gone up on the blog, the quality of questions by and large has been quite good.

In terms of a mission statement, I think the last few blog posts have summed that up pretty darn well. We could just close the door and not let anyone else join, but we’ve made the conscious decision that we’re not a band of elites—and even “quality” users can generate poor content. Rather, Fluther is a place to inspire the highest quality discourse on the internet—and a place to teach people how to generate that content.

For older members, I remind you that our core value is one of teaching, not of shaming, snark, or ridicule.

For newer members, I remind you that we do have a clear set of guidelines on what is and what is not acceptable on the site. If you’re unclear about those guidelines, ask in a thoughtful way. If you disagree with those guidelines, find another community to join.

Yes, we have had an increase in load, users, and discussions. We’re expanding the moderation team as we speak.

Whether or not you agree with the ratio of discussion-oriented questions to help-oriented discussions on the main page is your personal preference. We’ll be introducing tools to facilitate that preference.

I would say, however, that if you’re still displeased with the quality over the last two days, that you start asking some quality questions of your own.

After all, we know that questions breed similar questions.

andrew (16543

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Snap.

asmonet (21445

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“If you disagree with those guidelines, find another community to join.”

No.

Ivan (13479

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Quote from Andrew: “I would say, however, that if you’re still displeased with the quality over the last two days, that you start asking some quality questions of your own.”

Awesome!

Dog (25152

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@Ivan: Why would you stay?

asmonet (21445

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@uberbatman Don’t be so cocky, it’s plain rude
@asmonet I’ve been here for over a year. And keep your snaps to yourself “For older members, I remind you that our core value is one of teaching, not of shaming, snark, or ridicule.”

Mtl_zack (6778

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Because I believe that situations can be improved for the better through logical thought and open discourse. If everyone simply gives up and leaves when they disagree, nothing improves for the better.

Ivan (13479

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@Mtl_zack im not being cocky, im merely stating that if the content dropped off that badly i would have no reason to stay here.

@andrew
“but in the last few days, since the new policy has gone up on the blog, the quality of questions by and large has been quite good.” Seems like most of the mods think otherwise….

“I would say, however, that if you’re still displeased with the quality over the last two days, that you start asking some quality questions of your own.” Yea, ya see the thing is i try not to ask anything unless i believe i genuinely have something good to ask…

El_Cadejo (34610

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That is complete bullshit Ivan. You are the last person that should pull the logical card.

jrpowell (40562

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I shall snap, who I like. :)

@Ivan: This isn’t world politics, it’s a website. You’re taking it entirely too seriously.

asmonet (21445

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@Ivan Wow “situations that can be improved for the better”? What, to suit your needs? When will you understand that this site is not about YOU? How self-centered can you be? This is, after all, a community AND a business. Why would anyone want to change their business model to suit you? Get over yourself!

shilolo (18075

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@ all… i will respectfully add that this thread veers most verbose and has deviated from it’s intended path.

“My words fly up, my thoughts remain below: Words without thoughts never to heaven go.”
Hamlet (III, iii, 100–103)

fin

Dr_C (14339

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@shilolo: Exactly!

asmonet (21445

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@asmonet This is a community. Many fellow Flutherites are my friends. If I have a fight with friends or the people who I interact with everyday, then I should help to improve the situation.

Mtl_zack (6778

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@shilolo “many people will be saddened to discover that, upon the discovery of the center of the universe, it is not them.”

eponymoushipster (20297

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@shilolo But when there are other people involved who are essential for the growth of Fluther, who help Fluther strive without pay from a so called business, Fluther has to make sure that these unrecognized individuals get some sort of control of what they are contributing.

Mtl_zack (6778

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“What a piece of work is man! how noble in reason! how infinite in faculty! in form and moving how express and admirable! in action how like an angel! in apprehension how like a god! the beauty of the world, the paragon of animals! ” Hamlet quote (Act II, Sc. II).

Dog (25152

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@Mtl_zack: Are you unfamiliar with the idea of volunteering? And businesses don’t pay customers…so what’s your point?

asmonet (21445

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If you wish to discuss the merits of my argument, I would be happy. But I am not going to get into a back-and-forth insult duel. If you want to explain why my position is, in fact, illogical, please, I encourage it. But please do not merely insult me.

Perhaps you are not taking it seriously enough. You seem to have a vested stake in this community, improving it for the better would be something that would benefit you.

I honestly don’t understand where this notion comes from. Why is it that a desire to improve a community is seen as selfish? (The following analogies are not indicative if my situation, they are used as reference in the context of shilolo’s argument only. There is no need to lecture me about how my ‘plight’ is not equal to that of the victims involved) Was it selfish of African Americans to partake in a civil rights movement? Was it selfish of women for them to desire the right to vote? Don’t you think that society as a whole has improved since the civil rights movement and women’s suffrage?

This is not a self-centered goal. I honestly cannot count how many times I have said on this site that I do not wish to change Fluther to meet my demands. I am not making a wish list that I want you to fulfill. I do not want Fluther to change into the new wis.dm. I do not want Fluther to incorporate every feature I desire and get rid of every one I dislike. I only ask that each and every person’s ideas be considered and openly discussed for the betterment of the site and the community as a whole.

Ivan (13479

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@Mtl_zack Really? Does Facebook have to do anything you say? Yelp? Twitter? I don’t think so.

shilolo (18075

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To those dear friends who sought a fitting end to this thread i salute you and your hope for peaceful resolution.

“Oft expectation fails, and most oft there
Where most it promises; and oft it hits
Where hope is coldest, and despair most fits.”

All’s Well That Ends Well (II, i, 145–147)

Dr_C (14339

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“Nothing can come of nothing: speak again.”

King Lear (I, i, 92)

robmandu (21331

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“get thee to a nunnery.”

eponymoushipster (20297

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@Ivan: I enjoy the Fluther I had, have and will have as the creators intended. I see no problems, and any minor issues I might have will always end with a single e-mail to andrew or ben. If I have a suggestion I will also e-mail them privately, once. It is not my place to make demands.

This is their project, their passion. Not mine.
I enjoy the benefits, with absolutely no sacrifice on my part.

It would be wrong of me to demand they cater to my whims. I find the argument offensive.

Does that clear it up?

asmonet (21445

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@Ivan You showed up here from wis.dm and from DAY ONE started complaining. You think we’ve forgotten that? I, for one, have not. Your words are not the words of a veteran user. You want the crappy Qs to stay in order to reflect your old (crappy) site. We do not. It is that simple. I have a very long memory, both for complaints and insults. Never forget!

shilolo (18075

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It clears nothing up, as I have clearly and repeatedly said that I am making no demands and do not wish anyone to cater to my whims. Your ideology is one of conservatism. Those who are privileged want nothing to change. They lose sight of the progress they could be making in an attempt to maintain what they believe to be a fortunate existence. It is, at it’s heart, a disturbing and irrational philosophy.

Of course I was ‘complaining.’ I am still ‘complaining’ and I will continue to ‘complain.’ That is the essence of a progressive and logical mindset and the very issue at hand. Should we invite and encourage the discussion derived form such complaints or not? That is the issue. Whether or not to implement the changes desired in those complaints is not the issue.

Ivan (13479

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Bendrew own Fluther as a company. They use us, the members, as people who serve other people, and we get no recognition or pay off of it, except for lurve, which has no use!.
@asmonet You said this was a business, right? And Ben and Andrew are making money off this, amybe not a profit, but they are recieving monetary recognition.
@shilolo On Facebook you choose to buy a gift or click an ad. You don’t make the site more marketable or more appealing to potential users.
@shilolo So only veterans have a say on issues regarding Fluther? I thought you wanted only Ben and Andrew to have opinions of what Fluther really is.

Mtl_zack (6778

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@Mtl_zack “Bendrew own Fluther as a company. They use us, the members, as people who serve other people, and we get no recognition or pay off of it, except for lurve, which has no use!.” if you have such a problem, why do you hang around?

El_Cadejo (34610

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Um, actually I’m one of the few that supports the changes that have been made to accommodate Fluther. And as I said, I support whatever change and evolution bendrew have in mind, how am I striving to conserve the old?

Those who fight to enact change for it’s own sake, lose sight of any hope they had for a better world. Period.

@Mtl_zack: Not. Your. Money. You are here for free.

asmonet (21445

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@uberbatman because I developed friends here on Fluther. Fluther is helpful to me, and when someone answers my question, it helps my life.
@asmonet I’m not asking for money. I’m asking for a say on how to develop and improve Fluther.
I’m going to bed, I have to wake up at 6:45 and it’s 1:30 here. I’m out.

Mtl_zack (6778

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Again, the ‘love it leave it’ argument doesn’t get any better the more times you type it.

“I support whatever change and evolution bendrew have in mind”

Read this sentence and analyze it thoroughly.

“Those who fight to enact change for it’s own sake, lose sight of any hope they had for a better world.”

The only people who think that progress is unwarranted change are conservatives.

Ivan (13479

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But…you have no rights?
You don’t even pay for the service you demand control of! How do you think that works?

@Ivan: I don’t understand your warped logic, how about you analyze it for me, darling?

asmonet (21445

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Wow, who knew Ivan = Gandhi. May I touch your eyebrow?

shilolo (18075

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[Mod says]: I also advise all to take a step back, as well. We’ll address much of this on Thursday, I suspect.

We all have a very personal stake in this website—that’s what makes Fluther so wonderful (and horrible for me when I need to stop working).

andrew (16543

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@asmonet but i do contribute to the success of this site.
@shilolo i didn’t know you were shakespeare

Mtl_zack (6778

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<<<wonders how many people here (lurkers) have to work tomorrow, but, just.can’t.seem.to.leave>>> <<<dips into kevbo’s popcorn bowl – nom nom>>>

Jude (32198

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You’re a pretty minuscule drop in the bucket, zack. Don’t kid yourself.

asmonet (21445

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I’m one of the many drops that form the ocean …filled with jellyfish

Mtl_zack (6778

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@Ivan do you mind explaining why love it or leave it logic doesnt apply? If you didnt enjoy something why would you continue to do it…..

@Mtl_zack Don’t be so cocky, it’s plain rude

El_Cadejo (34610

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Friends let us not indulge in this any longer… the aggresive tone of this thread is leading us down the very path we hoped to avoid. Let’s instead be patient and let the waters calm before we permanently lodge our collective foot in our collective mouth.

“How poor are they that have not patience!
What wound did ever heal but by degrees?
Thou know’st we work by wit, and not by witchcraft;
And wit depends on dilatory time.”

Othello (II, iii, 376–379)

Dr_C (14339

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@uberbatman I’m not being cocky, I’m explaining how everyone not just me is essential for the success of Fluther.

Mtl_zack (6778

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i dunno, but when someone is kicking me in the nuts, i typically ask them to keep doing it, because, even though i don’t enjoy it, i’m already there, so, why walk away?

eponymoushipster (20297

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Good night, guys. I’ve lost interest. I’ll see you at JellyTable.

asmonet (21445

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I believe you have ignored my own qualifications to my analogies.

Anyone who would merely accept whatever their authority commands as good and true has no interest in progress or, for that matter, quality.

It is explained here: http://www.fluther.com/disc/39404/can-you-explain-the-logic-or-lackthereof-behind-the-my-country/

Ivan (13479

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< < is always kinda weirded out when someone says they’re done… but they’re not really.

robmandu (21331

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Ya right, at 7 am lol

Mtl_zack (6778

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@asmonet I keep on getting sucked in by the insults which I must defend myself against and I must also defend my opinion and free speech which is also under attack.

Mtl_zack (6778

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@Ivan instead of repeating something already said, ill just link

El_Cadejo (34610

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@Mtl_zack That wasn’t asmonet.

augustlan (47745

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Cuppycake

jlm11f (12413

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I’m getting really confused, and now i will go to bed. and also, red herring on you.

Mtl_zack (6778

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I sooooo showed that to @PnL.

Allie (17541

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Would you like to to merely link to my own response to that comment? Perhaps you should read the entirety of the thread.

Ivan (13479

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Anyone wanna watch the post-game show on wis.dm?

kevbo (25672

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@PnL Well, it made me smile. :)

augustlan (47745

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@augustlan – I am glad :)

jlm11f (12413

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@All how about a nice round of applause for the mods huh? they do a great job don’t they?

Much lurve to all my beautiful and talented mods!

Dr_C (14339

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You know who else had delusions of grandeur? Ivan the Terrible. Coincidence? I think not.

mote (633

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@kevbo i would, but it takes 20min for that site to load…

eponymoushipster (20297

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@mote

:eyeroll: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivan_III_of_Russia

Ivan (13479

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@mote Ivana Humpalot?

eponymoushipster (20297

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@Ivan fuck it, im tired of this circular argument with you. I realize me and you will never see eye to eye on this. It must be nice though living in a world where all businesses care about what you have to say.

El_Cadejo (34610

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@Ivan No, really….

mote (633

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@kevbo You mean like this one? link

It’s never about convincing everyone to agree with you. It’s all about the discourse itself.

@mote

Yup, believing in logic and free discussion makes me a schizophrenic.

Ivan (13479

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@Ivan What logic do you speak of? “I want to recreate a defunct site that failed because shitty questions begat shitty discussions begat no money?” Is that your logic? I wouldn’t be making that the cornerstone of my thesis if I were you (which, thankfully, I am not).

mote (633

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@mote ~no, that’s very logical.

eponymoushipster (20297

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Just about there.

AstroChuck (37609

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And then it’s gone again.

PupnTaco (13895

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I am part of this “problem” I think. My friends (and not-so-friends) from wis.dm and I, who have joined in the last month or so, have been asking a lot more questions than you are used to, and probably not all up to calibre. Why the mods have allowed them is their decision, but I think it’s a combination of sheer quantity to deal with, plus a flexibility in order to make the group feel more welcome (we’ve never been moderated before, and I can tell you that the first time is very intimidating and can put one off to the sight completely).

Being not very cynical, and having had the pleasure of a (mostly) warm welcome here, together with (mostly) excellent moderating, including from Andrew himself, I’d like to think that the allowance of (more, sometimes not so brilliant) questions was a strategic maneuver on the site’s part and will reap long-term benefits of the addition of many from the wis.dm community. Had it been played differently, we (neo-fluthers) might have been intimidated and turned off and wouldn’t have stayed, and you (alte-fluthers) would have lost out, imho. We’re a good bunch, smart and witty for the most part. Just used to asking as many questions as we want, no moderation at all, and the questions don’t even have to be questions and with no details explaining anything. Quite different to get your mind wrapped around. Walk a mile…

:-)

Zen (7748

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@mote

Where on Earth are you getting that from? Have you actually read anything that i have said on this thread, or for that matter, on this site at all, whatsoever? Apparently not. I don’t know how many times I have to clearly and whole-heartedly state that I do not in fact wish for Fluther to become the new Wis.dm or anything else. You, along with many others here, seem quite content on putting words in my mouth and simply refusing to listen to anything I have to say at all in any context in the slightest.

Ivan (13479

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Oh boy, another tantalising debate. Fluther is a wonderful site, it really is, and I enjoy it a lot but it is not perfect. Why would you limit yourself to the ideas of two people when there is an entire community of members who use the site every day. “Bendrew” knows how the site is supposed to but we, the users, know how well it works. There is nothing wrong with a simple “Hey, wouldn’t it be cool if we had ____” or “Maybe you should do _____” but it seems that these things aren’t welcomed. I understand that the JellyTable is for these ideas but what about the people who can’t make the JellyTable discussions? Does Fluther just say “screw your ideas” to that person?

Ivan is not trying to stir things up or lead you in circles, he is trying to stimulate debate…not argument. By looking at the amount of insults on this page I can tell that debate is a forgotten art for most Flutherites. It’s about bouncing ideas of eachother, discussing views, not “I don’t agree with you so now I leave.” If everyone from wis.dm suddenly left the site Fluther would lose all the different opinions that we bring. You would probably be glad we left but the site would never make progress. All of us coming here and challenging your rules, introducing ideas, and asking new questions has made people think and will eventually make the site better.

We all want to get along, but it is never going to happen if people keep insulting eachother and starting fights. I want everyone to look back at each one of Ivan’s posts and try to find something that was mean or offensive. There was nothing. But since he had contrary thoughts he was insulted. Fluther should not be this way.

wow, that is the fastest three paragraphs I ever wrote

J0E (13172

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I wish this site had time stamps so we could track how many days this question will go on for.

The_Compassionate_Heretic (14634

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Umm…. this isn’t where i parked my car…

Dr_C (14339

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@The_Compassionate_Heretic It says when the question was asked.

Zen (7748

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i read this entire thread, and still don’t understand what people are bitching about

casheroo (18106

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@casheroo nothing, just like people always bitch about. :)

eponymoushipster (20297

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@eponymoushipster are you saying a question critiquing the quality of fluther is just a bitchfest about nothing? I think I need to find a macro for this irony. To the internets!

3or4monsters (3228

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“Much ado about nothing” ~Shakespeare

Dog (25152

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@3or4monsters no, i’m saying people bitching about things they have no control over is nothing. i’m saying people bitching over things they don’t like, and are not obligated to use is nothing.

i agree that the questions have taken a bit of a hit quality-wise, but that’s because another group has come in, whose questions are perhaps of a different level or interest, and merged into the establish culture here at Fluther.

This group was not obligated, in part or in whole, to come here. From what i can tell on wis.dm (when it eventually loads), there was a vote and no small discussion about where to relocate. This was optional.

IMO, if you don’t like how things are operataed, leave. Shaw said, “People who get on in this world don’t blame their circumstances. They find the circumstances they like, and if they can’t find them, they make them.” Now, i realize someone’s going to come along and moan “We are trying to make the circumstances we like…” except it isn’t entirely your place to do so. As was hinted at above, can you imagine if a bunch of new folks signed up for Twitter, let’s say, and went “You know, 140 characters is pretty small. I want bigger! Biz is a nazi for limiting it to 140 characters!” and bitched about it ad infinitum?

The more close-knit nature of Fluther, at this stage of the game, is leading people into thinking they can dump on it. @Ivan will continue to bitch and whine that the “love it or leave it” principle is not applicable, etc., but it is. End of story. Go to askville, go to Yahoo Answers!, go to Metafilter, go build your own site. But shut the hell up about this one.

You don’t pay for it.
You don’t moderate it.
You don’t run it.

You use it. Beggars can’t be choosers.

</rant>

eponymoushipster (20297

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@eponymoushipster Go reread Ivan’s comments, he is not “bitching and whining”. His point is that if people don’t like it and they leave then the site will never improve, but if someone doesn’t like something and they ask about it then the site can find it’s flaws and improve the site. This is how progress is made.

J0E (13172

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@eponymoushipster This is me acknowledging what you’ve said. I can’t disagree. I don’t understand sticking around if you’re not happy, or trying to change the community to fit the needs of one person. That said..

@J0E It sounds like to me that there are more people happy with the way things are now than there are people who are unhappy and want it to change. Why should the majority change to accommodate the minority?

3or4monsters (3228

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@J0E People join and leave all the time. That is the nature of the internet. I’m sure you’ve joined other sites, signed on, messed around, and then never went back. You probably don’t even remember all the times this has happened (I certainly don’t). The gist of peoples’ issues is precisely embedded in your comment. “His point is that if people don’t like it and they leave then the site will never improve, but if someone doesn’t like something and they ask about it then the site can find it’s flaws and improve the site.” The fact is, he has expressed his opinion ad nauseum about Fluther’s so-called “flaws” and the need for “improvement”. Management doesn’t see it that way. And that, as they say, is that. If you want (and insist that) Starbucks to start offering cheeseburgers, and they decide not to, you have two options. Accept that fact and buy your coffee there anyway, or, find another place that accommodates your needs. Why is that so hard to understand?

shilolo (18075

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@J0E @shilolo pretty much hit it on the head. Perceived flaws do not flaws make. Put up or shut up, as they say.

eponymoushipster (20297

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@3or4monsters The majority doesn’t need to accomodate the minority, but how will the majority hear a good idea if the minority keeps quiet?

@shilolo You’re right, I have done that many times, but the reason I have stayed here is 1) my friends are here, and 2) I like this site a lot. Because I like it so much I want to see it be the best it can be…as should you.

@eponymoushipster That is exactly why we share our ideas, thoughts, and concerns. Differences of opinion and bouncing ideas of each other are preludes to progress.

J0E (13172

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@J0E Yes, thank you. You guys have expressed yourselves. Now, move on.

shilolo (18075

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Dudes, wtf.

I really don’t understand your arguments at all. Any of yours. You all say you’re not being listened to, no one wants your input, and on and on and on. But that’s simply…Bullshit. Andrew and Ben read these discussions. They’re in chat. They have e-mails, and private comments to get a hold of them through.

The reason no one is taking you seriously, and by no one I mean the members who were here before you, is because you don’t seem to realize the distinction between being listened to, having your idea considered, and being discarded as not a priority or as not in keeping with the site ideals.

You can be listened to and not have people hanging on your every word as gospel. The impression Ivan and Mtl_zack and well, more recently J0E are giving is that being listened to equates to giving out orders that must be followed.

You are not mice or sheep or silly little children. You clearly can type but for some reason you forgot the lesson on discretion and tact.

If you have a suggestion you send it to andrew or ben in private so you don’t look like a dick to those around you.

We have no problem, and I mean everyone on Fluther with change or improvement. We do take issue with whiny users who don’t understand what is and is not an appropriate avenue of communication.

Now. I’m done.

asmonet (21445

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Shall we, upon the footing of our land,
Send fair-play orders and make compremise,
Insinuation, parley, and base truce
To arms invasive?
King John Act 5, scene 1, 65–69

Dog (25152

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mmm. Starbucks cheeseburgers,

breedmitch (12171

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@J0E seriously, you are pretty thick about all of this. IN ANY SPHERE of life, be it a job, a new skill anything – if you walked in and tried to change things or “suggest” a new way to do things, they’d laugh at you and/or tell you to shut the hell up. Trying to “improve” things without adequate experience in the thing trying to be “improved” is called cockiness and stupidity.

fantastic, you were on another, different Q&A site. that’s gone bye-bye now. move on with it. and it doesn’t mean you have any experience or cache on this one.

make with the whiney-whiney in private, on your old, dead website, or in private communique to benadrew.

eponymoushipster (20297

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And what keeps popping into my head as I read this, is that I’m not so different. I have actually requested a feature that I think would add functionality to the site. They know about it, I’ve spoke andrew about it in passing, and I know it’s not a priority even though they want to do it. I agree, it shouldn’t be.

I PMed andrew to tell him the first time (I think), and the rest was conducted in about four sentences in chat. I got my answer and moved on.

Do you see the difference in behavior?
No one rallying on either side?
No bickering?

No tantrums?

asmonet (21445

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and just to be clear, some of the wis.dm-ers who’ve come over are great and provide excellent comments and questions. we all welcome them warmly.

but some are just whiney little brats.

eponymoushipster (20297

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@J0E it sounds like they’ve heard you (and Ivan and Mt).. and they don’t agree. Why push the issue into conflict? Can’t there be compromise, or a work around, that satisfies the most people?

I’ve been befuddled about this from the start. I feel like I’m one of… five… who transferred, who doesn’t feel the need to “fight the system” or whatever in order to make this place an enjoyable place to spend time. We are ultimately in control of our enjoyment. We pick our battles. We pick our words and when it all boils down to it, delivery is everything. Half the fights on this website spring from the fact that people can’t seem to have a difference of opinion without being abrasive, dismissive, or tactless in their delivery.

These are all things we have control over. If we cannot reach a compromise, it’s because of poor delivery or we feel it’s necessary to fight (be it a single person, the rules, or “oppression at large”) and that pretty much means failure has occured before the first word is spoken.

Compromise and work arounds are always an option, but that might not seem evident if people think that swimming against the current is the only way.

3or4monsters (3228

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@asmonet it’s not about being listened to or considered, it’s about being able to have discussions and debate about the site without being told to do it somewhere else.

@epony Just because I would get laughed at told to shut up doesn’t give my suggestions any less merrit. This has nothing to do with wis.dm, that comeback has been over used. I don’t have expirience but that is where discussion comes in, someone who does tells me that my idea wouldn’t work and then I understand why.

Look back at the comments on this thread, you’d be surprised at who really sounds like “whiny little brats.”

J0E (13172

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You’re not having a discussion or a debate, you’re whining.
There’s a line, find it, and walk back the way you came.

asmonet (21445

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@asmonet You are wrong, we are trying to have an educated and mature discussion but you are the ones who keep breaking out the insults and telling us to shut up.

J0E (13172

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@3or4monsters I’m not fighting anyone here, all I’m doing is trying to defend and explain my opinion.

J0E (13172

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And yet you just came out and stated I was wrong, sounds like a mature discussion.
Isn’t that the adult equivalent of NUH UH?

asmonet (21445

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@asmonet There is nothing immature about stating if something is right or wrong, getting upset over it is…

J0E (13172

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Meh.

asmonet (21445

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There is a tide in the affairs of men.
Which, taken at the flood, leads on to fortune;
Omitted, all the voyage of their life
Is bound in shallows and in miseries.
On such a full sea are we now afloat,
And we must take the current when it serves,
Or lose our ventures.
~Julius Caesar Act 4, scene 3, 218–224

Dog (25152

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God, I hate Shakespeare!
He’s so overrated.

AstroChuck (37609

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@J0E wow look at all the suggestions

Funny how all of these users are able to voice their opinons on what should be added to fluther or what they believe would make it better, and then THATS IT. No beating a dead horse or whining when they arent “listened” to. There are plenty of ways to voice your opionion as stated above. Be it email, Pm, chat, fluther questions, or that nifty contact us button. But after you voice your opinon Shut The Fuck Up. We read it, great. If its liked by ben/andrew it will be added. If not tough cookies.This isnt your site, deal with it. But by continuely voicing your opinon over AND OVER AND OVER your just making yourself out to be a “whiney little brat”.

El_Cadejo (34610

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Bravo, @uberbatman. Gailcalled couldn’t have worded it better. :)

mangeons (12288

)“Great Answer” (1

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OK, one by one now.

@eponymoushipster

“As was hinted at above, can you imagine if a bunch of new folks signed up for Twitter, let’s say, and went “You know, 140 characters is pretty small. I want bigger! Biz is a nazi for limiting it to 140 characters!” and bitched about it ad infinitum?”

This is not analogous. No one has suggested fundamental changes to Fluther, and certainly no one has “bitched about it ad infinitum.”

We merely want to have an open discussion. You do not.

“You don’t pay for it.
You don’t moderate it.
You don’t run it.”

As I have continually stated. No one is questioning Ben and Andrew’s authority to do whatever they wish with the site. We are questioning whether it is in Fluther’s best interest to let Ben and Andrew do whatever they wish.

We merely want to have an open discussion. You do not.

@3or4monsters

“I don’t understand sticking around if you’re not happy, or trying to change the community to fit the needs of one person. ”

I am not unhappy with the quality of the site, and I most certainly am not trying to change the community to fit the needs of anyone, much less myself personally.

We merely want to have an open discussion.

“Why should the majority change to accommodate the minority?”

No one is saying that they should. We are just saying that all ideas should be listened to and discussion should be encouraged.

We merely want to have an open discussion.

“he has expressed his opinion ad nauseum about Fluther’s so-called “flaws” and the need for “improvement”.”

I have done absolutely no such thing. Please cite examples to support your claim. There are very few things about Fluther that I believe could be improved upon. The only thing I have expressed ad nauseum is my desire to have an open discussion.

We merely want to have an open discussion. You do not.

“If you want (and insist that) Starbucks to start offering cheeseburgers, and they decide not to, you have two options. Accept that fact and buy your coffee there anyway, or, find another place that accommodates your needs. Why is that so hard to understand?”

No one is insisting anything. I, personally, have most certainly never insisted anything. The third option which you don’t seem to understand is the notion of having an open discussion with Starbucks about selling cheeseburgers. If they are willing to have an open discussion with you, perhaps you can reach a compromise, perhaps a better business model can be reached, perhaps the store can improve. If they don’t like your idea, then that’s fine. They won’t implement it. That’s no big deal. So long as they took the time and consideration to listen and discuss, that is all that is important. In that situation, no one loses.

We merely want to have an open discussion.

@eponymoushipster

“Perceived flaws do not flaws make.”

Certainly. No disagreement there. No one is saying that their perception is absolutely correct. We are only asking that you take our views into consideration just as we take yours into consideration.

We merely want to have an open discussion.

“You guys have expressed yourselves. Now, move on.”

That is not an effective strategy for progress. That is not an open discussion, that is a one-sided suggestion.

We merely want to have an open discussion.

“you don’t seem to realize the distinction between being listened to, having your idea considered, and being discarded as not a priority or as not in keeping with the site ideals.”

We would be entirely content with the fact that our ideas are not a priority so long as there was adequate discussion about them. That has not happened.

We merely want an open discussion.

“You can be listened to and not have people hanging on your every word as gospel. The impression Ivan and Mtl_zack and well, more recently J0E are giving is that being listened to equates to giving out orders that must be followed.”

Absolutely not. We do not wish for our “orders to be followed.” We aren’t making orders. We don’t expect or even want Fluther to adhere to our every demand.

We merely want to have an open discussion.

“We do take issue with whiny users who don’t understand what is and is not an appropriate avenue of communication.”

There is nothing inappropriate about open discussion.

@eponymoushipster

“if you walked in and tried to change things or “suggest” a new way to do things, they’d laugh at you and/or tell you to shut the hell up.”

That is clearly their own fault.

“make with the whiney-whiney in private”

Open discussion is not whining, and a private discussion wouldn’t be open.

“Do you see the difference in behavior?
No one rallying on either side?
No bickering?

No tantrums?”

There is no desire for bickering or tantrums. There is only the desire for open discussion.

We merely want to have an open discussion.

@3or4monsters

“Can’t there be compromise, or a work around, that satisfies the most people?”

That is the goal, yes. This is the result of open discussion. The Fluther vets seem very opposed to the idea of compromise and satisfying the most people.

“You’re not having a discussion or a debate, you’re whining. ”

No, we aren’t having a discussion or a debate, because discussion and debate take two parties. Your side refuses to participate, and therefore there can be no discussion.

We merely want to have an open discussion.

“No beating a dead horse or whining when they arent “listened” to.”

None of that is happening. No discussion about Fluther has occurred on this thread, or any where else for the most part.

We merely want to have an open discussion.

That’s it. That’s all we want. We just want to have an open discussion. Not only have most Fluther vets seemed unwilling to engage in such discussion, most react to the idea with anger and hostility. We do not have a list of demands. We do not want to change Fluther to suit our needs. We just want an open discussion. That isn’t whining. That isn’t being a “brat.” That isn’t being immature. That isn’t beating a dead horse. That is simply the desire to have an open discussion.

Ivan (13479

)“Great Answer” (1

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@Ivan Why are we having a discussion about having a discussion?
What exactly are the things you want to discuss?

Setting yourself up as this golden arbiter of change
that’s come to save us from ourselves is getting really old.

If you want to be heard, start with actually
saying something besides I want to be heard.

Nimis (13255

)“Great Answer” (7

)

We merely want to have an open discussion.
We merely want to have an open discussion.
We merely want to have an open discussion.
We merely want to have an open discussion.
We merely want to have an open discussion.
We merely want to have an open discussion.
We merely want to have an open discussion.
We merely want to have an open discussion.
We merely want to have an open discussion….....

El_Cadejo (34610

)“Great Answer” (6

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When I started out talking about the things I wanted to discuss, I received a huge hostile backlash. No one seemed to understand the concept of open discussion, so I felt it was necessary to explain why open discussion is vital before actually taking part in it. After all, like I said, discussion takes two parties. I can’t have an open discussion with myself. You need to be involved as well.

Yes, everyone was putting words in my mouth and misunderstanding my argument, so I thought I would put it in the simplest terms possible and repeat it enough times for you to remember it.

Ivan (13479

)“Great Answer” (0

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Ivan, buddy, time to let it go.

Jude (32198

)“Great Answer” (8

)

@Ivan “That is the goal, yes. This is the result of open discussion. The Fluther vets seem very opposed to the idea of compromise and satisfying the most people.”

I very strongly disagree.

1.) Ben and Andrew have been discussing, in chat and on this website, ways to improve and they have even taken suggestions from former wis.dmer’s and incorporated them into some changes (example: being able to look up all the replies/quips/comments from a person instead of just their questions). They ARE listening! I am under the distinct impression that you want to feel prosecuted.

2.) The Fluther vets ARE the majority here, so if they are setting the standards for compromise (which I DO believe is happening) then they really, truly are satisfying the most people——by keeping most things the way they are to make their largest user-base happy, as well as making changes and accommodations to make us few transfers happy.

But to be honest, MOST of the transfers have been acting like brats, complaining left and right about how this isn’t wis.dm. It’s embarrassing. Maybe you don’t see it because their bad behavior is getting deleted?

3or4monsters (3228

)“Great Answer” (6

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@Ivan I think you may be mistaking a backlash
to your ideas as a backlash to open discussion.
Though I wasn’t there and I can’t really say.

What I can say, though, is the way you are approaching
things now is incredibly unproductive for both parties.

Nimis (13255

)“Great Answer” (3

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@Ivan “so I thought I would put it in the simplest terms possible and repeat it enough times for you to remember it.” no, definitely not beating a dead horse….

Edit:agh wtf am i doing, i said i was done arguing with you. You drew me into this stupid argument again…. No more…

El_Cadejo (34610

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@uberbatman….or being condescending, but I guess the name calling and cold-pricklies got taken out of the toybox when the first “brat” comment got thrown around.

This discussion got buggered a while back…

3or4monsters (3228

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@3or4monsters

(1) I’m not talking about Ben and Andrew. I am talking about the Fluther community as a whole. That being said, in the brief time that I have interacted with Andrew, he has not been welcoming to discussion. Perhaps that is an unfair characterization, but that is my experience.

(2) I do not wish to get into a debate over whether majoritarian vs. consensus models are best.

“MOST of the transfers have been acting like brats, complaining left and right about how this isn’t wis.dm. It’s embarrassing. Maybe you don’t see it because their bad behavior is getting deleted?”

I have witnessed some of this in the form of Please_not_to_ask, Dutchess, Grog, and RealEyesRealizeRealLies. I am not going to speak for them or defend them. I do not think I have acted like they have.

“I think you may be mistaking a backlash
to your ideas as a backlash to open discussion. ”

There has been no discussion about my ideas, so I have heard absolutely no backlash towards them. All of the hostility has been towards the very notion of discussion.

The horse is hardly dead when you never understood my argument in the first place.

Ivan (13479

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@Ivan Again, I wasn’t there.
So I will try to refrain from speculating.

But I’m also curious as to how you chose
to initiate this open discussion. Did you:
• PM Andrew or Ben
• PM a moderator
• PM a user
• chat room
• pose it as a question to the collective in accordance to guidelines
• pose it as a question to the collective in wis.dm’s Y/N format
• attempt to mask it in a passive-aggressive question
• thread jack / off-topic chatter

Approach matters.

Nimis (13255

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One-on-one discussions, while certainly helpful, aren’t necessarily the most desired form of discussion. Ideally the discussion would include as many people as possible. I have attempted this in chat and in relevant questions.

Ivan (13479

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@Ivan How did you attempt this in relevant questions?
Your questions or those posed by other users?

Nimis (13255

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By voicing my opinion and encouraging retorts in questions regarding Fluther features, guidelines, moderation, etc.

Ivan (13479

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@Ivan Do you really want me to go through all the quips AND your comments in the chat room? Really? You joined on March 22. There are quips and chat comments from March 22 onward with a flurry of complaints and insults. Day #1 and #2 and #3 and so on.

With respect to discussion, how many websites offer that option? Be realistic. Most have a nice contact button where you can send an email to someone you don’t know and never will. Here, you have so many options to personally discuss your issues (as Nimis highlighted). Somehow, this isn’t satisfying to you. You like the “grand stage”, apparently.

Strangely, you take the resistance of the majority to your litany of complaints to be a resistance over discussion. It is not. It is, in fact, a resistance to the content of your complaints (to put it bluntly, the people have spoken and don’t care for your ideas).

shilolo (18075

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First of all, would you like me to review this thread and determine just who is doing the insulting?

Sending an email to some moderator is not open discussion. There are certainly many avenues for open discussion, I am not questioning that. I never said that Fluther rejected open discussion institutionally, I said that Fluther members themselves are resistant to the very notion of discussion.

I have made very, very, very few complaints. If you really think that the small handful of complaints that I have made is a “litany,” then I think you are just proving my point. As I have said, no one has engaged in discussion about my ideas, so they could not possibly have been adequately rejected. No one has resisted to the content of my complaints at all. No one has discussed with me why my ideas are incorrect, etc. They have only told me to shut up. They are resistant to the very idea of my ideas, not the ideas themselves.

Ivan (13479

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@Ivan i know i said i was done, but i just want to point one minor thing out. This wasnt your question you asked…. if you feel so strongly about it, go ask your own damn question…..

El_Cadejo (34610

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@Ivan As Uberbatman already pointed out, there have been plenty of open discussions.
Fluther members are not resistant to the very notion of discussion.

Refraining from insults and retorts will probably get you better results.

Now I’m just repeating things that have already been said. So I’m going to bow out.

Nimis (13255

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“Refraining from insults and retorts
will probably get you better results”

In this thread….
First person to use an obscenity: johnpowell, directed at me.
First person to call people names: johnpowell, directed at several wis.dm members.
First person to use an insult: asmonet, directed at me.
First person to tell someone to leave altogether: johnpowell, directed at me
First person to imply superiority: asmonet, directed at me.
First person to say that someone has a mental illness: mote, directed at me.
First person to tell someone to shut up: eponymoushipster, directed at me.
Total obscenity count: Me: 0, Comments directed at me: 10

Ivan (13479

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Could you please give a link to my offenses? That would be lovely.

asmonet (21445

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And, since I’m being accused of insults, I may as well step up to the plate.

Have you recently been wondering where you social life went? Or why you’re probably not getting laid?

asmonet (21445

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@asmonet 1, 2

They were admittedly not as hostile as the others.

Ivan (13479

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As I have continually stated. No one is questioning Ben and Andrew’s authority to do whatever they wish with the site. We are questioning whether it is in Fluther’s best interest to let Ben and Andrew do whatever they wish.

You were not hired as a consultant. You’re questioning their judgment on their baby. How do you see this as your business?

Absolutely not. We do not wish for our “orders to be followed.” We aren’t making orders. We don’t expect or even want Fluther to adhere to our every demand.

That’s why they’re called demands.

asmonet (21445

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And for the record, all we do at Fluther is DISCUSS. There’s no way in hell we’re resistant to it.

You have approached us with hostility, insults, and accusations. You have ruined all chances you had at being taken seriously. Your account is now forever linked to this drivel.

The majority, does not like what you have to say because of how you chose to say it. No other reason.

Either shoo, or make a new account and start over the right way.

At least in my eyes, you’ve become a joke. A caricature of yourself.
I’m over it.

asmonet (21445

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Your second example of my so-called insulting behavior is ridiculous. I was being civil, there was nothing malicious there. You’re desperately searching for ways to become a pariah.

asmonet (21445

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“You’re questioning their judgment on their baby. How do you see this as your business?”

You just went a long, long way towards proving my point.

“And for the record, all we do at Fluther is DISCUSS.”

Yes, you discuss other things. But when it comes to Fluther itself, it is a horrible taboo.

“You have approached us with hostility, insults, and accusations.”

This is a complete and utter lie. What a joke. I have continually attempted to be rational and explain my opinions thoroughly. I could have acted like all of you have and merely said STFU and told you to accept it my way or else. But I didn’t do that. I don’t believe in that. I honestly don’t know how you could possibly make these accusations after reading this thread. You are very clearly showcasing selective perception here. You see what you want to see.

Ivan (13479

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If it’s such a taboo how come I can find all these nifty threads about Fluther’s improvement when I search without one single person acting like toddler? Hmm?

Dude, I’ll give you one thing, you’ve made me laugh. But your act is a bit stale. Spice it up or get off the stage, or soap box as the case may be.

asmonet (21445

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@asmonet I certainly haven’t seen any such threads since I’ve been here. Definitely none that were posed by wis.dm members. Most of those got deleted.

Ivan (13479

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Exactly.

Do a search. Like a normal member.

asmonet (21445

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So if I were to take you at your word, what is it about wis.dm members that makes Fluther members belligerent and childish?

Ivan (13479

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Oh, it’s not wis.dm members buddy, it’s a select few trolls.
As we’ve stated repeatedly, we as a whole actually really like wis.dmers.

asmonet (21445

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So long as they don’t bring up the things they don’t like about Fluther, right?

Ivan (13479

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Nope, not at all.
That’s your warped lil brain doing silly things again. :)

asmonet (21445

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@Ivan agh must stop looking at page but i mean come on. Do you read what anyone else says or just write what you feel like. ” I certainly haven’t seen any such threads since I’ve been here. Definitely none that were posed by wis.dm members. Most of those got deleted.” You must have skipped this reply check out that first link….

El_Cadejo (34610

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Jesus. This is freaking ridiculous. Ivan, you want to have a discussion. Have you heard of the jelly table? That is the place for discussion.

Other people’s threads (1st example I could find: http://www.fluther.com/disc/39646/people-who-have-had-an-abortion-what-are-your-feelings-on/) is not the place to do that.

Has it occurred to you that your are not being ignored? I think people have heard your complaints and suggestions loud and clear- it’s just that no one likes them except you and a small handful of other people.

We hear you, and the verdict is…We don’t care.

Likeradar (19583

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@Likeradar

The Jelly Table is hardly open. Discussion should be encouraged everywhere and at all times. Besides, not everyone can make those.

“We hear you, and the verdict is…We don’t care.”

You couldn’t have possibly heard me because I haven’t said anything yet. The very little that I have said has not been greeted with discussion, as I have continually said.

Ivan (13479

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Again, delivery.
You have yet to discover that skills potential.

asmonet (21445

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@Ivan refer to that SAME EXACT POST i just linked to. “There are plenty of ways to voice your opionion as stated above. Be it email, Pm, chat, fluther questions, or that nifty contact us button.”

El_Cadejo (34610

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@Ivan “The very little that I have said has not been greeted with discussion”
Guess why? It’s because we read your complaints and WE DON’T AGREE OR CARE.. People don’t respond to things they don’t care about. I am lost as to how that is confusing.

Likeradar (19583

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