I agree with your example, especially the term “holiday tree”. It’s not a holiday tree. It’s a Christmas tree. It’s for Christmas and nothing else.

Also, it’s rare, but I’ve heard “person of size” be used for an overweight person. We are all people of some size. Even I’m a person of size. :P

(My aunt used to be fat and actually preferred the term “fat” to overweight, but I have no problem with “overweight” just because of the connotations of “fat”).

I can’t think of one. Just because you and other’s you know are not offended doesn’t mean others are not.

I think bashing so called “political correctness” just proves why we all need to be a little bit more understanding of those who do not agree or feel like they do not have a place in a certain society because of seemingly simple things.

@tinyfaery

A person can theoretically be offended by anything, though. Is it then numbers-based?

@tinyfaery Of course different people are offended by different things but do you not think that the example I gave is, even remotely, slightly crazy? I mean, England is a predominately Christian country and because of that Christmas is celebrated by a large number of people (and I don’t want this to become a discussion about how Christmas is actually a Pagan celebration or whatever). To try and hide this fact because the people that don’t celebrate Christmas might be offended is pathetic and just shows how overly fragile people seem to have come. What is there to be offended about? No one is forcing people to celebrate Christmas (I don’t) just because there are a few decorations up in the streets.

The way in which I’ve seen political correctness go too far is the fear or confusion expressed by those who simply do not say anything, for fear of saying something wrong. There is fear of being labeled sexist, racist, homophobic, nationalistic, etc. when someone may truly not be any one of those things, but will be deemed so – sometimes based on a single word they say.

Political correctness itself isn’t to blame, it’s individuals who are to blame when they take it too far or don’t take it far enough. Overall, I believe that political correctness is a very positive thing, but it’s when the fear that has been bred from it shuts people up that it’s a bad thing. Fear of being labeled has shut down positive lines of communication, and in this way political correctness can further alienate people, rather than bringing them together, which was the entire goal to begin with. It’s unfortunate and ironic.

My girlfriend and I are Jews, and she is totally congenitally blind. We are bored with and could care less about PC issues. What we are concerned about is genuine, not legislated or culturally prescribed fairness.

I love Christmas trees, however I object to public displays of a crucified Christ. Is that difference plain?

I think inclusiveness is the order of the day. You don’t have to call my girlfriend “differently abled.” You do have to offer her a job if she can perform it, and most of the time she probably can, even if you’re not used to thinking that it’s possible.

She has a Masters Degree in Social Work, and they have all been trained to mouth PC homilies, but when it comes to hiring her to do intake, they are such idiots that they can’t imagine she can do a Global Assessment, because they can’t imagine themselves doing one with their eyes closed, as if that were equivalent.

Call her crippled and give her a job. Stick up a Christmas tree wherever you please, but don’t make my kids sing hymns about Christ being their Savior. It’s not hard to figure out, it’s just ordinary common sense balanced with a conscious rejection of ethnocentrism.

This isn’t really political correctness, but I get annoyed when someone asks me how old I am, and someone else corrects that person, “Oh! Never ask a woman her age!” Why not? I’m 26. If I were 54, I’d still tell you. I don’t get what the big deal is.

I have a black friend who hates when people say he’s “African American”. He says that if he were from Africa, then fine. Call him “African American”. But he isn’t.

@pdworkin Everything you have said seems fair enough to me.

@Les I completely agree with your friend, and I feel exactly the same way. I’ve said this before, but it’s like someone having to call me Irish-Native American-Danish-English- German-French American. No thanks… I’m okay with “American”.

@Les

That one most likely comes up because people do not know what to call them when the opportunity to refer to them as something in that field comes up. I mean, I’m not a Russian American; my ancestry is Russian, but I’ve never lived there. But in terms of African American, they’re just American, but people have problems with “black” it seems when discussing history or heritage. I’m wondering; does your friend?

I remember when the Murraugh Building was bombed, there were news reports that they had found an “African-American leg. I remember wondering how in the hell they knew it wasn’t Afro-Cuban, or just Namibian, and therfore African, no suffix. What’s wrong with Black? I have a hard time understanding.

@DominicX – You’re right. And there are plenty of people who would get upset at being called black, just as there are some people who don’t like to be called ‘white’. My friend doesn’t correct people when they say this, I just know him well enough that he told me that it annoys him when people say it. I think he even appreciates that people are trying to be polite, but too many people like too many different things, so it is impossible to guess what this one particular person would like to be referred to as. I had a middle aged teacher in HS who hated when we said “Yes ma’am”. She would tell us that she wasn’t a “ma’am”. Give me a break. Pick your battles. People called me “ma’am” when I was 15 and worked at a museum. ;-)

@Les

I pretty much agree with “pick your battles”. It’s impossible to cater to everyone’s preferences of what’s offensive and what’s not. Political correctness attempts to do that by eliminating the possibility of offense, but often takes it too far to where the PC itself becomes ludicrous or even offensive. It’s a difficult subject. People just have to prepare themselves for possibly being offended; it’s difficult to go through life without ever being offended.

@DominicX – Very true. There are some things in life that you have to realize are not being said to intentionally hurt you, it is just not your preference. Unless of course someone is insulting you with a derogatory term (I’m sure we can all agree that there are plenty of ethnic derogatory terms). Then, its perfectly fine to tell the person you were insulted.

It really comes down to self-determination. You should be asking people what they prefer to be called and calling them by whatever their answer is. There is never going to be one standard answer that suits everyone. And we shouldn’t assume that one answer is better than the other. Ask and you shall find out. That is how we go about cultural understanding. In the meantime PC is used so that we aren’t completely offensive when we start the conversations. I’d much rather the media use the word “Native American” (even if it’s not the term I prefer) vs. redskins.

@RedPowerLady Exactly. Just ask. That said, can I take your example literally? Do you not like “Native American”? What is it that you prefer?

I can’t speak for @RedPowerLady , but when I traded Pawn Jewelry in the Southwest during the 1970s, all my friends called one another Indians.

Reminds me of that Simpsons episode where Homer is referring to the gay guy John and he goes “I don’t want you calling him a sissy anymore, guys. This guy’s a fruit—I mean “queer”, queer. That’s what you like to be called, right?” and John goes “well, either that or John”. :P

Just to clarify: I’m fine with queer, homosexual, and gay—though the latter is the most specific to me. I do not like “faggot” or its variants. There are isolated cases where close friends can call me that as a joke, but that’s based on a long time knowing them. An acquaintance wouldn’t want to use that one.

@DrasticDreamer
The issue of what terminology is correct for Native people is very complicated. That is because in one ethnicity you’ll never get everyone to agree, because their are over 500 different Native nations recognized by the US government (more that aren’t), and because Native history is quite complicated.

However I did write a brief article on the topic a bit ago. Let me see if I can find it. I think I could have articulated myself a bit better when I wrote it but it’ll give you a general idea.
http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/187747/politically_incorrect_solving_the_debate.html?cat=4

Personally I’d prefer to be called Native, Indigenous, or by my Tribal affiliation (short answer).

@pdworkin The term “Indian” is used most commonly within Native communities (and their friends) but is rarely seen as appropriate for those outside the culture. The reasons being quite complicated but I could explain them if someone so needed.

@RedPowerLady I called them by their names! They called one another “Indian.”

@pdworkin Perfect example all the way around then ;)

@RedPowerLady Makes absolute sense to me and thanks for posting. I always used to wonder if some people might take offense to the additional word “American”. I saw another post of yours about how your culture is often romanticized and how it bothered you and some others once in a while.

It’s really strange for me, because (and I won’t lie) I myself have romanticized Native people at different periods throughout my life. For me, I think part of it is because I myself wouldn’t exist without the Native blood. It’s bizarre, knowing I have tons of European and “white” blood, but also Native blood. When I was little and learned about the history of everything that went on, and being able to see what it must have been like for my grandma, it made me angry. I dunno… I can’t even really put into words what I’m attempting to. Blah.

Anyway, as for calling people by their names, yes, it’s a good idea. lol :) But when it comes down to specific conversations, sometimes it helps knowing what people like to be called when it comes to their nationality, race, etc.

In Sweden some people will not have a Swedish flag anymore because they are afraid this will be interpreted as unwelcoming or even racist by immigrants. PC gone wild…. Also, they have banned the singing of old Swedish hymns at school graduation because ‘not every one is Christian’. Not celebrating graduation in churches is fine but taking away classic, traditional music that is not even considered religious by most people is just silly.

@DrasticDreamer It might be poignant for you, at some point in your life, to explore your cultural heritage :)

@RedPowerLady I definitely agree. I’ve tried, at different points throughout my life, but it’s been nearly impossible, if not completely impossible, to explore more than what I have. My grandma was placed – or very well forced – into an orphanage, when she was really young. There was a fire that burned the entire thing to the ground. With it went all of her documentation – so I have no idea what tribe she was even from.

@DrasticDreamer I completely understand what you mean about exploring your lineage. Many many Native people have the same difficulty. Have you ever tried attempting it from just being a part of the culture vs. exploring your lineage? Like going to cultural events and learning cultural information. Most of the events and information are pan-indian now meaning they are not specific to a single tribe.

I might also have some hints at exploring further which tribe you belong to but I wouldn’t say that they would be easy by any means. Some of us never get proper documentation.

@RedPowerLady Yeah, I’ve always been interested in it. I have a few friends who also have the same interest, for the same reason. So I think getting together with them and going to events would be really fun.

Any hints you have would be very appreciated. :) When and if you have the time, I would love it if you could PM some tips to me, or even email them.

@DrasticDreamer I sent a PM your way. Sorry if it is too long….

@Leanne1986 Hmm, can you be more specific about which ”..villages and towns..” no longer put up Christmas decorations for the reasons that you claim? Do you have any proof to substantiate your assertion?

I think people get offended too easily. I think there has to be more trust that when we generalize we are not speaking necessarily directly at you as a minority. I get flack all of the time on fluther when we try to discuss sociological issues and use statistics on race, education, economic status. How are we ever going to solve issues of discrimination if we are not able to talk to each other, correct our incorrect assumptions, and communicate our concerns that might be correct?

Generally, I ask black people if they prefer African American or Black if we are in a conversation that necesitates the use of one of the words/phrases. I don’t care which one I use. ALL of my black friends prefer black. I do have a white blond friend who calls herself African Amercan, She came here as a teen from South Africa. The continent you are from does not guarantee your color/race.

Also, I find people in the south to be much more PC in public than northerners (behind closed doors is a different story). I don;t know if they are overly careful to not be accused to being racist or what?

Christmas trees and lights and songs are fine, I don’t know anyone who is not Christian who minds these things. But don’t bring prayer into my child’s elementary school. I think @pdworkin said something to this effect. if you are part of the majority you have to stop for a moment and think if I were the minority what would I want? If 50% of the public school teachers are Moslem do you want prayer in school? Do you want big huge Stars of David 20 feet tall along highways, popping up everywhere? Where I live there is a statue of liberty holding a cross (about 15 feet tall) at a busy intersection, what if the Jews did that and put a Star of David in her hand? I see this all over where I live. I am not trying to have the crosses taken down, but maybe stop and think what do you want to be acceptable? Because one day when a minority group grows in numbers in your community they might follow suit.

going too far is when we are chastised for using a perfectly good vocabulary word like “niggardly” which means petty or reluctant to spend…

Political Correctness.

@Leanne1986 Urrm….err…still waiting for some proof.

Urban Myth alert!?

@lloydbird I have read that many people have objected to their tax money being used to promote a religion, so towns and cities have increasingly been doing away with Christmas Displays that are dominated with the story of Jesus. This is not an urban myth.

However, for Christians to continually insist that the decorated tree is a Christian symbol is wrong. The Christians took over the original decorated tree, which was used prior to the introduction of Christianity, and incorporated into their tradition, to appease the people.

As for the question of PC gone mad, it is a well known fact that there is Power in words, and the words that are used in any context can actually form people’s opinions based on the choices. This is the main reason to be very careful what words we choose to use in every situation. To call it PC is Power Trip to excuse any misuse of words.

don’t know, I’m all about being inclusive and “PC”

Political Correctness was a trend started by politicians who went to great lengths to avoid offending any of their potential voters. However when they try too hard not to offend anyone, it reeks of insincerity.
I think that’s why so many people view the concept in a negative light.

The idea is to be mindful of the language we use so as not to be inconsiderate of others but if people aren’t sincere in these efforts while using language deemed to be “safe” by PC standards, it comes off as patronizing.

What do you consider to be an example of political correctness gone mad?

When people tell me to be more understanding simply because I have an opinion on a subject that differs from theirs.

@FutureMemory I lurve your score (666) but I don’t agree that when people tell you to more understanding is an example of PC gone mad. That is more like an assessment of the quality of your disagreement. It is possible to have a difference of opinion without being disagreeable.

@YARNLADY I feel like Christian’s are the ones saying the Christmas tree isn’t religious and we non-Christian’s are the one’s saying it is.

@lloydbird Not an urban myth thank you I just don’t spend all day, every day on my computer!

Anyway, in answer to your question Luton town council banned the public celebration of Christmas in 2006 to avoid “offending the minorities”.

Sonning, which is near Reading banned a man from putting up decorations outside his home although the reasons are unclear but they are believed to be down to political correctness.

That’s just two but there are more that I found just by searching on google. The reason I asked this question was down to a conversation I had with my great grandmother who lives in Kent apparently her village was considering not having decorations up this year but there hasn’t been a definate decision yet.

How boring would the holidays be if no one decorated. Perhaps instead of decorating only for traditional Christmas the town council could consult with reputable people of different beliefs and also include some Kwanzaa decorations, some Hanukkah decorations etc.. so that they could feel they are including more people.

@RedPowerLady I would like that because then we could all experience each others cultures and traditions. I think this would be a far better way of encouraging people to be more accepting of each other than banning certain traditions in case we offend others.

@Leanne1986 I think you put it perfectly. It is a better way to encourage accepting each other! :)

@Leanne1986 I’ve just taken the trouble to research the basis of your assertion that ”..Luton town council banned the public celebration of Christmas in 2006 to avoid “offending minorities”..” , and found your claim to be baseless . I wonder which other examples you have ”..found just by searching on google..” . Sorry to be pedantic about this, but you seem to have fallen victim to politically motivated rumours, and are passing them off as fact. The term Political Correctness is quite often used by questionable organisations to either stifle debate or stir up trouble between groups and individuals. I suspect you mean well, but you really ought to take more care when making such serious claims. And take care not to fall for the “political correctness gone mad” myth.

@lloydbird You’re right, they may be rumours and I hope they are (I’m not going to go to every town in the country to see if the rumours are true) but in answer to your question, I typed into google “Political correctness at Christmas” and found plenty of links that claim that over the top political correctness is rife. The first one I found which has comments from readers under the article (I like those as they often put articles that could be blown out of propoortion into perspective) is this: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-419740/Campaign-real-Christmas-Religious-leaders-unite-political-correctness.html

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/this-britain/we-wish-you-a-pc-christmas-427725.html here is another one which lists some of the most PC gooings on around Christmas time (many are because of health and safety as well as religion)

I don’t think any of these are baseless. I hate to believe all I read but like I said, I can’t go to every town and speak to every council about their views on this.

If you can tell me that something is completely untrue (with back up that is more credible than anything I have found on my short google search) then I will be relieved to know that these rumours are false but if there’s even a whiff of Christmas being toned down in any town in the UK to avoid offending the minorities (who come over here aware of what our celebrations are) then I am sorry but I do feel that it is over the top and political correctness gone mad.

Like I said, I asked this question based on a conversation with my great grandmother not on any “facts” that I was aware of at the time. I did do a quick google search before asking and found enough to feel that, whether 100% true or just 25% true there was cause for discussion.

Oh and @lloydbird Are you an MP by any chance???

@RedPowerLady No matter what someone is left out. Not that I think your idea is a bad idea, I think it is a good one to be inclusive, I like the decorations. The holiest days of the year in Judaism are in September, Chanukah became big to compete with Christmas, which I guess at this point is moot because it is commercialized now in America whether it is to compete or not. I would guess the Chinese celebrate their new year in a big way, in major cities they probably do stuff in Chinatown for that? Should other towns accomodate that if they have a decent size CHinese population? I guess the lack of decorations makes the whole thing easier. My sister lives in NY and she is very annoyed by the Puerto Rican Parade, the Dom Rep parade, the gay parade, St. Patty’s day parade, etc. Holds up traffic, messes up the city. Once you start with one you have to do them all. I’m not fighting to get rid of them, I like the festivities, just pointing out the domino affect, and it is still impossible to please everyone.

@Leanne1986 We are not in disagreement.

Oh, and if I was “an MP”, I hope that I could count on your vote. :-)

@JLeslie Yes of course someone will be left out but if they want to be included all they would have to do is provide some decorations for the town council (or whoever decorates). Of course we aren’t talking about celebrations that occur at other times of the year, just ones that occur around Christmas. The idea is to reduce ‘the minority’ not get rid of holiday joy altogether. We can never make everyone happy but we can start including ideas of greater acceptance like making an attempt to include cultural decorations. That’s my thought train anyhow.

As far as this goes: “Once you start with one you have to do them all.”. I don’t mind one bit. That is what living in a multi-cultural society is all about. I am completely fine honoring as much diversity as is possible. I wouldn’t consider it a domino effect but rather a compassion effect (or in the parade case, a pride effect).

Well there’s kindness and then there’s being thin-skinned. Do we avoid doing everything that anyone is offended by? Do we ignore the feelings of everyone else in the name of one right or another?

Often, people make fun of “pc” because they are in a majority of some kind, and they can’t understand why it would bother anyone. The train of thought might go like this: ‘They must be being thin-skinned. We mean no harm. We aren’t discriminating. We don’t think you should be offended, and really, you’re over-reacting.’

I think that what underlies these kinds of conflicts are feelings that one is not understood, nor respected because one has cultural differences. The push for political correctness is about education—the language we use helps form our ways of thinking. If we can change the words people use, or the symbols they use, then maybe they can come to respect us more.

Personally, I don’t expect people to know everything, and I don’t feel it is my job to educate everyone who is clueless. I think I would feel worse if the attitude caused me harm or perpetuated prejudice and discrimination against me or my kind. But then, I come from a long line of people who used camouflage to blend in. My Jewish grandmother wanted to hide her roots because she wanted to join the local yacht club, a WASP preserve.

I try to protect myself from the stigma of mental illness by keeping that information as secret as I can. I do not tolerate non-pc comments, but I limit my intolerance to telling folks that I find the comments to be offensive.

I have no idea when it goes too far. I think people should listen to each other and try to understand our differences. We shouldn’t rush to judge, and that includes a rush to saying that people are making too much of a little thing. On the other hand, understanding goes both ways. Ignorance is not necessarily the ignorant person’s fault. Until it becomes clear that people are being deliberately ignorant, I think they deserve the benefit of the doubt.

@RedPowerLady I like your train of thought. Just kind of being devols advocate…thinking git through. My point was that we are still circling around the Christian holiday no matter what. If our holy day is not near Christmas you might get nothing. You also said each religion can provide their decorations, but aren’t tax dollars buying the Christmas ones for the city? Also, in the back of my mind I am thinking about how I vary with my opinion regarding Christmas decorations depending on the specific question. I am in favor of them on the streets, and personal homes, etc. I am against them in school. Not enough against to fight to get them taken down, but I prefer school to do nothing rather than try to inculde everyone. Children are very aware among their schoolmates that santa does not visit their house, believe me it sucks to be the kid not celebrating chistmas.

@JLeslie You also said each religion can provide their decorations, but aren’t tax dollars buying the Christmas ones for the city? This is a great point and I thought of that myself. Perhaps they could cut spending in the city by asking anyone who wants holiday decorations (at any time of year) to provide them to the city. Then they spend about a month deciding to accept or deny donated decorations. It might be a way to solve both issues at once.

I’m not sure how I feel about decorations in schools. That is an interesting one to ponder.

@RedPowerLady I think that is a great idea! I think it would work especially well in smaller cities and towns. I’m interested to know what you think about the schools.

@JLeslie Well about the schools the truth is that I think the cultural understanding is so horribly lacking that I plan to form a group home-school for my kid(s) when they are school-age. Of course I may change my mind when that actually happens, lol.

So it is quite difficult for me to think about their competence when it comes to holidays and holiday decorations. It seems like a far step for them as I’ve found quite often basic cultural understanding is often lacking.

I know that sound so harsh and people may not like it. It’s just I’ve seen so many circumstances of cultural misconduct in the school system.

However I’m still thinking about it, what do I think in general about holiday decorations in public schools. Argh that is a tough one.

@RedPowerLady I think cultural understanding is great to teach in schools. My niece and nephew went to an international magnet school in Boca Raton, FL for most of their elementary years, and they talked about different customs in different countries, etc. But, I think these discussion were more about holidays pertaining to the countries not religion. The thing about Christmas is that it is so much more FUN to celebrate Christmas when you are a kid, and you feel left out if you don’t celebrate it. I am in favor of Comparative Religion classes for high schoolers as an elective.

@JLeslie Comparative Religion classes sound great. And even Comparative Culture and Tradition classes. That would be so fantastic. I think it’s great your kids went to an international magnet school. Good choice!

My niece and nephew still came home on Thanksgiving with Indian and Pilgrim costumes (should I remind you that they are NDN? and the costumes are completely false and horribly stereotypical). That, in my humble opinion, is not teaching cultural understanding.

@RedPowerLady It was my niece and nephew who went to the magnet school, I don’t have any children. They themselves have a Mexican born mother and an Italian born father, both of whom came to America in their 20’s. I think the school is actually over the line in Delray Beach now that I think about it. I don;t think there is anything wrong with celebrating Thanksgiving in school, that is an American holiday, not a religious one.

@JLeslie Oh sorry for misreading that about niece/nephew vs. children. It wasn’t the act of celebrating Thanksgiving that was appalling, it is how they choose to teach culturally inappropriate stereotypes. It is especially disrespectful to have children dress up as Indians. We don’t have children dress up as Latin Americans, African Americans, etc… Anyhow I’ll stop my rant. Ick. And thanksgiving itself has murderous origins. So if you want to get into holidays that don’t make sense and make children feel left out… which I particularly don’t want to do, lol. Perhaps a discussion for another time.

@RedPowerLady

Man, I don’t know anywhere where they don’t do that. Even I remember making a little headband with feathers out of construction paper in school when I was like 5 and in kindergarten.

@DominicX Exactly why I think the public school system has a long way to go when it comes to cultural understanding. And exactly why I don’t want my, Native American, children in public schools (but again I could change my mind when the time comes). Just because they do it don’t make it right :)

@RedPowerLady forgive my ingnorance, but are the costumes extremely innacurate? Did Native American’s braid their hair and where headbands with feathers? I’m just wondering if there is some accuracy or totally made up? When a play is done about the old south kids would dress up like the parts they are playing, whether black or white. On Cinco de Mayo people wear traditional Mexican outfits (even though Mexico doesn’t really celebrate that holiday like we do in the US). I am interested to know why it is so offensive to dress up for thanksgiving?

@JLeslie I have seen some objections to the depiction of indians on various discussions. Some people object to the public school depictions of “Indians” as a generic group, rather than the 100 or so separate Nations that occupied this country before the European invasion. They believe that the approach resembles an insult because it does not recognize that the indigenous people were a very diverse group.

Personally, I don’t see it as objectionable. I am a member of the Choctaw Nation of Oklahoma, and I have met many fellow members who are actually “red racists”. They object to allowing “mutt bloods” into the tribe, and many are outspoken about what they see as a de-humanizing treatment of “indians” in the public schools.

I do not agree with them.

@YARNLADY Interesting. Thank you. I always perceive Thanksgiving “plays” in school as a story of two groups breaking bread together, so I never worried too much about it being very literal. Having said that I think only the minority group themselves knows what it is really like to be them, so I always try to respect if a person feels something is racist against them. In the other hand, I also feel that sometimes people tend to be too defensive and sensitive about these things, I’m not saying that is the case here, sometimes “we” are being very insensitive. I just had no idea Thanksgiving would even be an issue.

I had heard that children no longer use the terms Indian Style for sitting with your legs crossed, and I guess Indian Giver always was not a nice thing, that one seems obvious.

@JLeslie Are the costumes extremely inaccurate? Yes they are extremely inaccurate.

Did Native American’s braid their hair and where headbands with feathers? Braid their hair, well yes in some tribes. Where headbands with feathers, I’ve only seen one tribe do this during a ceremony. For the most part this is also highly inaccurate.

On Cinco de Mayo people wear traditional Mexican outfits Mexicans wear traditional outfits to respect their cultural beliefs. I do not know anyone else who does unless they are part of a Mexican family….

Not only that but the point really is that they are dressing up like an ethnic group. How would you feel if your niece/nephew came home dressed as Black people? Wouldn’t that immediately feel wrong? And how would you accurately depict a Black person anyhow?

Also the history of Thanksgiving is not about two groups breaking bread together. Perhaps you should read the story about the real thanksgiving.
http://www.danielnpaul.com/TheRealThanksgiving.html

This is also a great educator’s link about how you can be more culturally sensitive while keeping the theme of thanksgiving alive.
http://www.education-world.com/a_curr/curr040.shtml

Now you must understand that there are over 500 federally recognized tribes, more who are unrecognized, and each tribe has several members (most hundreds and more). So you won’t find that every Native agrees on this issue. However all the Native educators I know (and I know several) do agree with my POV on this issue (in general). Not only that but the American Psychological Association has taken a stand on many similar issues and has written reports about how such stereotyped imaging can negatively affect Native children and at times be out and out harmful.

@YARNLADY So you do not believe that de-humanizing treatment of Indians in the public school system is wrong?

I would hardly call people outspoken who believe it is wrong considering the American Psychological Association along with many other notable organizations consider dehumanizing treatment wrong as well.

@RedPowerLady It’s funny you should mention how to dress like a Black person. I actually heard a woman on TV clomplaining that ‘everyone’ is trying to dress ‘black’ now. She was referring to specific colors and designs of fabric, and some types of head wraps.

In answer to your question about de-humanizing; no, I am saying that letting children wear feathers and brown colored clothes to simulate leather is NOT de-humanizing.

@RedPowerLady

I’m curious: what do you make of William Bradford’s quote on the 1621 “Thanksgiving” here:

They began now to gather in the small harvest they had, and to fit up their houses and dwellings against winter, being all well recovered in health and strength and had all things in good plenty. For as some were thus employed in affairs abroad, others were exercised in fishing, about cod and bass and other fish, of which they took good store, of which every family had their portion. All the summer there was no want; and now began to come in store of fowl, as winter approached, of which this place did abound when they came first (but afterward decreased by degrees). And besides waterfowl there was great store of wild turkeys, of which they took many, besides venison, etc. Besides, they had about a peck a meal a week to a person, or now since harvest, Indian corn to the proportion. Which made many afterwards write so largely of their plenty here to their friends in England, which were not feigned but true reports.

Doesn’t seem to fit in with a lot of the stuff in that article you linked to…I’m just saying that one article with a clear agenda behind it is not necessarily the greatest of evidence.

Additionally, Edward Winslow speaks about the 1621 harvest feast here:

Our harvest being gotten in, our governor sent four men on fowling, that so we might after a special manner rejoice together after we had gathered the fruit of our labors. They four in one day killed as much fowl as, with a little help beside, served the company almost a week. At which time, among other recreations, we exercised our arms, many of the Indians coming amongst us, and among the rest their greatest king Massasoit, with some ninety men, whom for three days we entertained and feasted, and they went out and killed five deer, which they brought to the plantation and bestowed upon our governor, and upon the captain, and others. And although it be not always so plentiful as it was at this time with us, yet by the goodness of God, we are so far from want that we often wish you partakers of our plenty.

Again, doesn’t really seem to match what is said in the article…were Bradford and Winslow lying?

@YARNLADY I can certainly see what you mean about the dressing. There are certain styles of fabric, colors, and head wraps that rightly or wrongly are stereotyped as part of the “Black” culture.

About the de-humanizing. The APA disagrees. I think they are a pretty reputable organization. I also found this:
The fourth Q/A has a great, much more articulate explanation of how it is harmful:
Thanksgiving and Teaching about Native Americans

I am just curious whether you agree or disagree with that Q/A above. I don’t often find a Native I disagree with on this issue so it is an interesting conversation for me.

Of course you have a right to your own beliefs, I am not arguing that.

@DominicX Who is the “they” in the quote? Is the pilgrims or the “indians”?

Without knowing that I can say that I believe the story of the first thanksgiving is largely romanticized and not accurately depicted. The quote you gave seems very romantic to me. If it were true then all the better but it is very hard for me to believe it is true based on the information I learned about the true first thanksgiving and based on information about how pilgrim/native relations were (not always negative but just different than depicted).

Here are some great links. They are from a college professor who posted student essays on the real thanksgiving.
Here is the link for the syllabus

Here are the student essays:
Essay 1

Essay 2

Essay 3

@JLeslie You may want to check this out too. The fourth Q/A has a fantastic, well articulated, reason why it is “wrong” to dress up as Natives.

Here is the link

I have read all of the above. However, I believe much of what is said is PC gone mad.

@YARNLADY Okay, okay we will have to agree to disagree then, lol

I would suggest it is a generational gap as I am part of this new era of wanting to change all this and you are probably well past all that and just want to live peaceful but that could be a wrong assumption on my part. And you know what they say about assuming, lol

@RedPowerLady you are correct, I am at peace with the injustices of the past

I skimmed over most of the links, but have not read them thoroughly. History was my worst subject, I HATED it in school. Having said that as a very young girl learning about Thanksgiving for me was being nice to each other, even if you look different and have different customs, and even if you have been enemies before, you can make up. I also remember the history as being that the Europeans came in and killed many of the Native Americans with disease and other violent ways and we took their land. I have never had a class in school try to paint it like the Europeans were all wonderful.

I am all for teaching the history as accurately as possible. If it really bothers Native Americans I would say we shouldn’t do it anymore, but I think you should be aware that when 1st graders do a little skit, and serve corn bread to their moms and dads, they are not purposely trying to hurt the memory of the Indians, it is a happy celebration of Thanksgiving. They are not showing the Indian’s in a bad light in those little plays they do.

Meanwhile, it seems likely to me, since it is upsetting to you and others that we will move away from this portrayal. I’m fine with that, I am not fighting to keep it. Every Thanksgiving I have ever been to in my home or with friends or family gives thanks, but I have never heard them say thank you to the Native Americans or Europeans that are represented on that day.

It’s like any other story we can learn from. I am not religious, but stories like the story of King Solomon and the baby, or the story of David and Goliath are good to teach a lesson, I don’t care how accurate the story is, or even if it really happened.

@JLeslie Well fantastic. We agree that the Thanksgiving theme of sharing can take place without stereotypical dress-up. :)

I think you should be aware that when 1st graders do a little skit, and serve corn bread to their moms and dads, they are not purposely trying to hurt the memory of the Indians

I agree and most people do as well. No one is saying that the children are trying to hurt anybody. What I am saying is that the skit can take place without stereotypical dress-up and that is the educator’s choice. It has little to do with the children themselves. This whole conversation began by me stating that I am worried about the lack of cultural education for educators. This is one example of that. They should be aware of how the dress-up can have negative affects and thus we can continue the Thanksgiving skits and theme of sharing without promoting stereotypes.

Okay I’m done with my rant now. I think.

BTW thanks for the understanding :) Even if you disagree you’ve been quite civil and kind. Much appreciated.

“What do you consider to be an example of political correctness gone mad?”

When people refer to somebody with dark skin from another country, “African American”...lol!

If I were Native American (funny how you all keep saying “Indian”...that’s certainly not PC), I would not like Cleveland Indians’ mascot, nor the Washington Redskins name….but I’d have not problem with the FSU Seminoles or the Utah Utes. Political correctness goes too far when it lumps in honoring a people or culture with denigrating them.

I’m Danish and Irish…if the Minnesota Vikings had a mascot that denigrated Viking culture or Scandinavian people….I’d be pissed (see Cleveland Indians mascot….and even the name Redskins)....but they don’t do that. Notre Dame doesn’t look to devalue the Irish people of the world….even if they do have a stereotype of a mascot.

There’s no problem dressing up as “Indians” as long as its respectful….if you’re doing it for a halloween costume that may not be considered respectful by most. I wouldn’t let me children do it, even though they are 1/16th Chicksaw….just not respectful to me. That said, I don’t think most people that are being disrespectful are doing it intentionally, just ignorantly.

@unlvrebelx We discussed terms prior to talking about the issue and we both know where each other stands on the terms.

I don’t have an issue with the Seminoles or the Utes either. Because both those tribes have agreed to be used in that way. I would prefer they didn’t but since I am always arguing for self-determination this is a prime example.

If you want to talk mascots though feel free to PM me as I have a bunch of information on the issue. Including my response regarding the Fighting Irish.

But my question to you is how is dressing up like Indians respectful?? You simply cannot honor a people if they are saying ‘when you do this it disrespects our culture’. Now if you are dressing up in Native regalia to participate in a ceremony (even if not Native) that is by no means disrespectful and would be considered quite the opposite. I agree that many people are not being intentionally disrespectful but so much negativity and harm has been caused in the name ignorance I have a hard time ignoring it.

@RedPowerLady “But my question to you is how is dressing up like Indians respectful?? You simply cannot honor a people if they are saying ‘when you do this it disrespects our culture’ ”

…The answer to this is, I need to know who “they” are ? I’ve done extensive auditing of Native American Tribes’ financial affairs….from the Pala and Pechanga tribes in California, to the Paiutes in Las Vegas, NV, the Coushattas in Louisiana and the Oneidas in Green Bay, WI.

Guess what? Even the tribes themselves can’t agree who “they” are….some tribes have become so greedy that you could be 100% of the tribal blood and they’ll tell you your not because of a recent bylaw they created.

Regardless, I can tell you that opinions on this issue of “disrepect” vary. Some feel any outsiders portrayal of their culture(s) is disrespectful. Others teach “outsiders” their rituals and sell to outsiders their ritualistic clothing and other items…knowing full well it will be “worn” by the outsider…and many of them do this not driven by greed, but by education…teaching the outsider about their culture.

The fact of the matter is that any and all cultures and peoples will have malcontents and those that will misread actions by others as negative to him/her. In my opinion, this issue can’t be simplified. You have to take each issue as it arises and judge it according to the actions and mindset of those involved. Furthermore, being disrespectful is relative….one may even go out of their way to attempt to be RESPECTFUL and his/her actions may be received as DISRESPECTFUL….so break out the philosophy books and debate that one until your blue in the face, but my opinion is that disrespect is when one blatantly, intently, purposely OR is grossly ignorant in their actions.

Innocently ignorant and those with pure intent should never be considered “disrespectful”....even if they dress up as an “indian” and it offends 100% of all Native Americans…if their intent was the opposite, they’re not being disrespectful.

By the way….my wife’s grandfather is ½ chicksaw and my cousin (foster cousin, I guess) is a reknown Navajo dancer and artist (Kelvin Yazzi).....my wife’s Grandfather, because of the connotations and the way he was treated as a child in Oklahoma (where he was raised) was always embarrassed and denied his ancestry….so my wife and her family have always understood the need to be respectful of others’ cultures (especially Native Americans). On the other hand, my cousin has always been opposite, and even though his family sent him to be raised by “white” family in a “christian” home, he always held on to his culture and never allowed it to be disrected…so I feel I’ve had a lot of experience with this issue.

@unlvrebelx

This isn’t an issue about defining who “they” are. We are talking about the pan-Indian culture here. You can also talk per specific tribe if you’d like.

Also it is obvious the opinions vary. You can’t get over 500 federally recognized nations, even more unrecognized, with various amounts of members each to agree on an issue. That is just not conceivable. The idea is that there is an overwhelming amount of people from the ethnic group who have provided very good information as to why it is disrespectful. That should be the end of the story. Now even the majority of Natives who don’t think it is disrespectful aren’t fighting to have the mascots stay in place. They just don’t care. So best to listen to the group who have reasons to take them down. Why cause unnecessary harm?

You are also using semantic arguments. You are talking about what “respectful” means. What? I am discussing actual harm and actual reasons this is not okay. Not semantics.

Also intent does not always matter. I am sorry but I disagree with you on this point. You can still be disrespectful and cause harm with the best of intent.

BTW I’m a Native woman who is active in her community. I’ll spare you the family history. I have actively worked on mascot campaigns.

Besides semantics and generalizations I fail to see what your point is? That because people are ignorant they should be allowed to dress up as Native mascots? Or that because of ignorance and a lack of definition of terms that people are in fact “honoring” Natives by dressing up as them?

Perhaps we should continue in PM as we are kinda hijacking the thread here.

@unlvrebelx Just to put in my perspective, I am a member of the Choctaw Nation of Oklahoma, and my views are nearly opposite from @RedPowerLady

@unlvrebelx Just to put in more information. We disagree with nearly all issues relating to our heritage. We also come from very different generations. Like I said you can’t make everyone agree. But I am talking about the facts present and not personal opinions.

@YARNLADY my wife’s grandfather was actually Choctaw, not Chickasaw….my mother-in-law corrected me when I asked her about it. He was from Roger Mills County, Oklahoma.