But I can’t respect their religion, either. That goes against my own principles. I think religion is a manifestation of a way of thinking that is all wrong. I think it’s a flaw. One they could mend, in principle

This is a mirror statement of what I hear from fundamentalists.

It’s not about respecting their religion- it’s about respecting them as people and letting them have their own choices of what works for them.

Exactly, it sounds very much, your way or the highway. How about agree to disagree and move onto something you can agree on. Like politics.

You have to decide what means more to you; your beliefs or your relationships. Pretty much the same thing I’d tell a believer.

All you need to respect and nurture is the friendship. The rest is just for you as their religion is for them.

I’m an agnostic and have two very dear friends who are devout Mormons. Ultimately, I care how they act and how they treat me and my wife. They don’t try and convert us so, frankly, I don’t care what their beliefs are.

@gemiwing
“This is a mirror statement of what I hear from fundamentalists.”
I’m sure it is.
I could justify why I believe things like this, but this thread is not about that.

“It’s not about respecting their religion- it’s about respecting them as people and letting them have their own choices of what works for them.”
Yes. That makes sense.

But what makes this difficult for me is that often, people never made any choice. To many people it never even occurred that they have a choice.
If people would look at the issue with their mind a blank slate, weigh their options and then choose a religion, I would find it much easier to respect their position.
But I can’t respect the modus operandi of starting out with a conclusion and clinging to it no matter what. That’s irrational.

@Fyrius: I think what you have to remember is that that is not for you to decide. Some people are comfortable being sheep (as you might see them).

It’s not really fair to judge their capacity for logical thought on their religion. Do they demonstrate a lack of judgement in other areas? Does that effect your friendship?

If not, then how they came to their beliefs is none of your concern.

I don’t mean to sound harsh but get over yourself! If you value their friendship then how hard is it to agree to disagree? I have plenty of friends who believe in things that I don’t but life would be very boring if we all had the same opinion. If they are ramming their point of view down your throat then I could understand why you would be annoyed but, from what you have told us, it sounds like you may be guilty of doing just that to them. You also sound extremely patronising about their beliefs but whether you agree with them or believe their opinions to be “flawed” only they can decide what is right for them when it comes to their faith or lack of.

My advice to you and your friends is just not to discuss religion. If your friendships with these people are strong enough you will have enough to converse over without religion ever needing to come up.

@Fyrius About choice- I don’t know how to tell whether someone else has made a thoughtful decision or not. I think that many choices/beliefs are built bit by bit and not in one relevatory chunk. Maybe they don’t see the choice because to them, it isn’t one.

Did you have something specific happen with a friend that sparked this or is it just a build up over time?

Your comments are well noted, everyone.

@gemiwing
Well… There is an anecdotal trigger for this thread.
Yesterday, a few friends and me were talking, and at some point the topic changed to a Chinese translation of the bible, which my Chinese friend had got from the janitor, I believe. No big deal there.
Another friend paged through it, and mentioned that even though it was in Chinese, she could tell which parts are which by the number of chapters. I asked semi-seriously why she would know all of that by heart.
“Because I read the bible every day,” she replied.
I didn’t say anything about it. But I was taken aback. It had suddenly hit me that some of the people I love associate themselves very strongly with traditions I am opposed to.
It’s been a long time since I last found myself in such a situation, a long time in which a lot has happened to my views. I didn’t know what to think of it.

I thought the above of it.

Another factor that makes it hard for me to just shut up about it is that atheism is a minority that I really think needs to speak out sometimes, if only to let people know we exist.

If they are good friends, in such a situation as the one you describe above, you might want to say that you have become a confimred atheist and if they are interested in discussing religion at some point, you would be open to having a discussion. You do have to realize that you are not likely to change any minds, but airing your opinions sounds like it’s important to you. You might also want to think about looking for some friends, if you don’t have them yet, who are more in agreement with your core beliefs.

I am the only atheist in my family, and have only been an atheist (formally) for around a year. I have one cousin who is also an atheist, but I have never talked to him about religion and he lives on the other side of the world. This is a constant struggle for me, to point out the flaws in certain beliefs but yet maintain the relationships with my family that I value so much.

My approach is largely silent – most of my close friends and family know of my atheism, because they saw a small portion of the trauma my change caused me. They know I am an atheist, and however tempting it becomes I avoid open conflict and derision because it would distance me from them. As much as I would love them to become atheists too, I do not even try because I know it would be even more traumatic for them than it was for me. It is too late for them to reach the degree of freedom from religion that I have, and I just hope they will become more apathetic over time. However, most of my friends and family also know I am interested in religion, and if they ever want to discuss it with me I am happy to oblige.

I share your belief that it is best to “accept that they’ll probably never change, and feel sad.” It is important not to let your friendships be affected by religion, or you will be forever looking to be exclusively friends with like-minded people. Differences in opinion are valuable, and as long as you can talk about it amicably with these people and know when to stop it shouldn’t affect you too much.

Remember that destruction is what religion in general does best, and part of rejecting religion is trying to make the world a better place. Widening the crevices between religious views only aids this destruction. Before you show your friends that religion is objectively false, show them that it doesn’t matter. Religion is often emotion based, so the fact that a healthy, morally and psychologically stable life can be lead without it is a great first step.

I know this question is about you, but I’d like to finish it with another part of my story. Earlier this year, my brother (Christian), my girlfriend (apathetic atheist, ex-Catholic) and I went on a road trip that was both for the birthday of my brother’s friend and so my girlfriend could see my old home town. While at the friend’s birthday, we were bombarded with questions as to what course I was studying at my brother’s Christian college all the friends knew each other through, and which church we went to. Rather than replying that I wouldn’t be caught dead in a church and I think the college is hardly worthy of the term “educational institution”, we decided it was best to divert the issue and say we go to a reputable university in my city, and that “my parents go to church x”. To this day, they do not know I am a strong atheist and think them all deluded, and I honestly think it is better that way. The three of us later had an extensive discussion as to why my brother and I are so different, which I am sure was productive for all of us. I decided not to alienate myself from the group of ignorant strangers, and instead managed to have a good discussion with my brother. In my mind, that was the better option and is a small victory for me.

Sorry for the length. I know how hard this can be.

My favourite Christian song also helps me out at times. A few word changes and it would be perfect. Lyrics and Music.

@FireMadeFlesh
“Before you show your friends that religion is objectively false, show them that it doesn’t matter. Religion is often emotion based, so the fact that a healthy, morally and psychologically stable life can be lead without it is a great first step.”
There’s an approach I wouldn’t have thought of.

Thanks a lot for replying. These are helpful ideas.

For decades, having “good manners” meant that you did not discuss religion, politics or sexual proclivities with people who may have differing opinions than you. Like @noraasnave usually says, you have to set the boundaries.

Perhaps that would be a good New Year’s resolution, a commitment to not talk about religion. Refuse to have the conversation at all, and change the subject to anything else but. Telling people that you’ve noticed that religious difference seems to get in the way of friendships, and that you are just not going to talk about religion, but will talk about just about anything else. And if they bring it up, stand your ground by saying “change the subject, please.” Eventually, they do stop. In less time than you’d think.

People believe what they believe. Sir Arthur Conan Doyle believed faeries were real. Unless they’re at a crossroads in terms of belief, nothing you say will have any impact on them whatsoever. You might as well be talking to a wall. So just don’t have the conversation.

@PandoraBoxx
I don’t think I should make a resolution like that. As I said earlier…

“Another factor that makes it hard for me to just shut up about it is that atheism is a minority that I really think needs to speak out sometimes, if only to let people know we exist.”

With that said, besides letting people know I’m an atheist, I’ll do my best not to represent that position unless I’m positive the conversation could stay calm, non-competitive and friendly in tone. I know there’s no winning a religion debate.

@Fyrius I agree with you. You shouldn’t feel you need to bottle up your core beliefs around friends. Just be aware of what you might or might not achieve with the talk.

I think something you also need to remember is that, in spite of your atheism, these people are still friends with you. In their eyes, you are the one with stupid beliefs or non-beliefs and they can’t believe how stupid you are. Where you see lack of proof for their beliefs, they see abundant proof. Where you see abundant proof for yours, they see a complete lack.

I think the problem with atheists and non-atheists trying to explain their beliefs to each other is that you’re explaining two different things. It’s rather like someone saying, “The sky is blue,” and the response being, “No, because the car is red!”

Also, a note on atheists: I have no problem with atheism. I have no problem with people telling me why they’re atheists. What I mind is the militant atheist who doesn’t want any sign of religion anywhere and let’s everyone know it. These are the atheists I usually hear about and deal with. I imagine this militant atheist is what comes to mind when someone hears the word.

The place for discussion of atheism and religion period is limited. It is not a dinner table conversation. Religious beliefs are personal, and should be kept personal in most situations. The only time they are appropriate is if you can honestly answer, “Has this person given me some indication that they are looking for something, and my perspective will have value to them.”

I agree that atheism should have a dog in the fight. But my point is with not talking about it is, that as a general topic of conversation, everyone should shut the hell up, mind their own souls, and talk about football, or the Monty Hall Problem, or what’s new in science. There shouldn’t be a fight for the dog to show up at in the first place.

Religion, Sarah Palin’s IQ, and sexual proclivities are off the table for conversation unless you know for a fact that you’re among people who agree with your perspective. Otherwise, someone will be offended.

I have gone years without discussing religion with some of my friends. We have other topics we discuss and we know that we disagree on religion, so it is never a topic.

It’s difficult. What I’ve done is try to understand the role religion plays in their lives. It comforts them in any number of ways. I don’t begrudge them that comfort. Especially if their hearts are in the right place politically and socially. Most of the religious people I know are also very caring and politically active.

We know each other’s views, but we like each other for basic personality traits that have nothing to do with religious beliefs. Of course, I am not friends with anyone whose political views are opposed to mine or who believe in things that I find inhuman. But there are religious people that I feel are fellow travelers. We can be allies, so long as we stay away from some subjects.

I am an atheist as well, but we seem to interpret the sentence Be the change you want to see in the world a bit different. But I do believe it is good to question religion in discussions, as well as everything else.

I agree that in many ways religion is of malice, but I also believe that lack of faith is the reason people lose hope and meaning, and that that is the basis of what is wrong in this world.

I think as well that this is what seems to scare some religious people. That atheists – in their opinion – has no faith. Which of course is wrong. Most atheists have faith in many things other than religion. Apathetic people don’t.

Faith doesn’t need to include religion, but for many people it serves a need and a purpose. I don’t think anyone is benefited by having that faith destroyed without being replaced by something else, whatever they believe in.

I think it can in some ways be compared to holding different political views. It can be discussed and debated, but it is ok to have difference of opinion. Maybe you shouldn’t try so hard to know what’s best for your friends to believe in.

Also – I am sure you mean well – but bigots need not reply doesn’t seem very humble either.

I am in your boat – it’s hard for me to just ‘agree to disagree’ when their religious views are actually harmful to others (as it happens to be when creationism should be taught in schools, when abstinence education is said to be a good idea, when gay marriage is said to be not something they support)...these are fundamental issues to me and I don’t agree with people who don’t support these maters so why should I agree to disagree…I don’t have a lot of friends that are religious and the ones I do have are progressive in their thinking, belonging to churches that have reread the Bible or are reconstructionist Muslims…it’s not just the issues above…it’s about being anti-abortion which I just do not accept…it’s about saying women should be virgins, which is sexist.(because it’s not the men who should be virgins and even if they should be, that’s not how it’s looked at in reality).it’s about saying they feel bad for my soul and for that of my children…sure people can be great but I can’t get along with them when they say things like that…so really it doesn’t matter to me if you are religious or not and what God does for you and all that..but when you have opinions that I think are harmful, whether you’re religious or not, I won’t be friends with you…it just so happens that usually you think these things because of your religion…

@oratio
“Also – I am sure you mean well – but bigots need not reply doesn’t seem very humble either.”
Haha. Well, yes. I inserted that bit as an (admittedly somewhat inconsiderate) attempt to keep out two kinds of people: those who would tell me not to be an atheist, and those who would tell me not to be friends with religious people.
I’m looking for a philosophy of tolerance here.

@Fyrius guess I fall into the latter…nah, I don’t really think one shouldn’t be friends with religious people..people can be stupid whether they’re religious or atheist…you gotta take friendships on a case by case basis…it just so happens that for me if a person is really religious, they’re not going to like many things about me and I’m not going to like many things about them

I think the best way to find a philosophy of tolerance is for to learn to be more tolerant yourself. I don’t mean this in an insulting way, but I think it might behoove you both to learn to take more of a “to each his own’ stance when it comes to this subject.

Neither you nor your friends will likely change to the other’s point of view any time soon, but that is not reason to lose a good friendship.

My SO is a nonbeliever, and I believe. I don’t try to shove my ideas down his throat, and he returns the favor. We get along just fine that way. In my experience with other atheists, the discussion usually became heated when my believes were insulted by calling them fairy tales, especially when I was respectful of the person’s choice to not believe in the same things I do.

I found the best way to handle this is to respectfully refuse to discuss it, because the discussion never goes anywhere anyway. There’s no sense in banging our heads against the wall when there are so many other more pleasant things to talk about and experience together.

But-but-but, you’re a dog!
in a suit!

@PretentiousArtist
And I have nine religious friends.

I am reminded of my friend the republican. We know that politics is a subject that we will never ever agree on. So we don’t talk about. We make small jabs once in a while. Little jokes here and there, but a serious conversation would go absolutely no where. I do not judge her for being a republican. My views are very important to me, but they don’t need to be important to her in order for her to be important to me too.

I know that this is a bit different because there are not that many self proclaimed atheists out there willing to make a stand for what they believe in. I respect anyone’s beliefs as long as they are their own. You have a right to believe whatever you want to believe. Give your friends that same right. Their faith is not a character flaw. I also see religion as a bad thing, but I can see someone’s own faith and hope as a very positive thing. The key is to not pass judgement on other people. Even though you do not agree with people, you can still learn from their experiences, from their beliefs. If you find that you can’t do that, then only hang out with people who have your views. Although I am guessing that would get old real quick.

@Fyrius “Showing people religion is objectively false?”

What exactly is “false” about religion? Do you mean all religions are false or just theistic religion? And, if the latter, do you mean all theistic religion, or just certain fundamentalist strains? In Buddhism, Confucianism and Taoism, for example, gods play little role in religion. In Deism and Unitarianism, doctrine, dogma and creed are absent, and belief in God or gods is entirely an optional and private matter. Some of the more liberal Christian denominations read Jesus as a man, rather than as a god, and much of the supernatural rigmarole has been reinterpreted as metaphor, and not to be taken literally. In fact, some accept that doubting the existence of God is a necessary aspect of faith (because if you knew for certain, it would be knowledge and not faith).

Here, religion functions as a moral community—or what sociologists would describe as a “reference group”—a kind of social and psychological benchmark which is necessary in order to define one’s sense of personal identity; particularly one’s sense of self as a moral actor. In this respect, religion as a reference group also defines what you are not, so ultimately your self-concept as an “atheist” is shaped by theistic religion.

You may reject the theistic content of belief, but do you reject the idea of a moral community as well? Probably not, since psychopaths are the only people who truly make up their own morality—which is why they so often act in bad faith toward the rest of us. Most of the rest of us draw from the moral life of the communities around us—from the profits-before-people values of our capitalist secular culture, or the secular humanist traditions of our universities (what’s left of them), or the moral decency of the people around us, which is largely informed by Christianity.

In my view, religion can be a constructive force in people’s lives, especially when it becomes an aid to conscience; when it creates the sense of obligation to “keep faith” with one another; of speaking truth to power; of bearing witness to and affirming one another’s in their moral struggles; and living as a moral example to others.

I think you might well find common ground if you looked at your religious friends in these terms rather than confining religion to the small compartment of dogma and creed, which many religious people don’t really believe in their heart of hearts anyway. Of course, when you come at people with a direct challenge to their group’s creed, they often feel the need to defend it, but that isn’t what people’s religiosity is necessarily all about.

I am a born-again Christian. I have many friends that are not Christians, some don’t believe, and some others that are atheists. Our friendship is not faith-based (otherwise, they would not be my friends). We simply enjoy each other’s company.

I am adamant about my beliefs, but I am laid back. I am not out to hammer my friends with the gospel every time they see me. I don’t want them to say, “Look out, here comes Bible Man.” I know that some of my friends and family think I am extreme and crazy for some of the things I practice, but I am OK with that.

I also understand that you cannot sell a vacuum to a vacuum cleaner salesman. There is no end to a religious debate. Therefore, I do not debate. If someone just wants to argue, I let them say what they will and shrug it off. Now, if someone asks me a question because they want to hear what the Bible has to say, I will answer.

@Zuma
I’m afraid my objections are a bit more extensive than that.
What I object to about religion is the theistic aspect, every other aspect that makes unsubstantiated claims about the universe (no matter how vague), and the notion that it is the source of modern morality. I also object to taking another human’s word for it regarding what happens to you after you die and the like, I object to unwillingness to reconsider, and I object to having a psychological need to retain a belief. For anyone over the age of twenty or so, I also object to still feeling the need for a parent figure to look out for you and tell you everything’s going to be all right, rather than facing a universe that was not custom-made for you to be happy in and seeing how you can make everything all right yourself.
And this may still not be an exhaustive list.
If any or several of these characteristics apply to your beliefs, I oppose them. I think that makes me an opponent of pretty much everything out there that can be called a religion, as well as many non-religious ideas.
If there are any religions out there that pass these criteria, I tip my hat to them.

But like I said, the content of the beliefs in question is a subject for another thread, that I’m sure we’ll get plenty of opportunities to discuss at length in the future.
Incidentally, the phrase you’re quoting was a quote in my post too.

I think you have touched on this in a few places but I don’t really get it: why do their beliefs affect you? Particularly in the anecdote that you mention about reading the bible—why does it matter if your friend reads it daily?

I ask because I am very sympathetic to this issue. I am also a staunch atheist and have other moral beliefs (e.g., not eating meat) about which I feel very strongly. But I think if you continue to interrogate your line of reasoning, you will eventually find yourself up against this wall: you cannot force other people to behave in a certain way, ever. So as long as their [foolish, immoral, ignorant, insert adjective here] beliefs do not in some specific way harm you, someone you love, or someone who can’t protect him/herself, you really have no choice but to embrace the diversity of opinion and try to learn something from this person’s polarizing perspective (even if all you learn is “wow, I sure am right about this”.)

I agree with @nikipedia. Neither you nor the other side are ever going save any souls during the course of a social gathering.

Do you really care that your friend derives some sort of satisfaction from reading the bible several times a day, or goes to church twice a week? Why would you even find it interesting enough to want to talk about it? Is it a driving need to somehow win?

My girl is a Christian, I’m an atheist. We both feel pretty strongly about our respective beliefs and lack-there-of, but it hasn’t caused any tension. Rather, it’s sparked a couple of interesting and educational discussions.

@nikipedia
@PandoraBoxx
Hmyes.
Their beliefs do not affect me, no. They do, however, affect how I think of the friends that hold them. And that is the essence of the issue.

As for reading the bible every day… well, considering what’s in there, that could say any of a number of things about this particular friend. I don’t think she’s a fundamentalist, so she’s either a cherry picker or she reads it without believing it. This third option would be intriguing, but I think the second is quite more probable.
Or she has miraculously never come across any of the disturbing parts during all her days of bible reading. Even less likely.

And like I said, I have long since given up hope of religion debates being winnable in either direction.

@Ivan when did you get a girl?woo hoo

Myself, i think you are deluded as to what it means to be human. It’s not possible for your friends/family to see your point of view without seeing evidence. They aren’t “idiots” they simply don’t know what you know. Because of your ignorance to these realities as well as ignorance as to how to deal with people you disagree with in general, you become frustrated and clashing happens.

The less you make time for both their educational growth and yours, the longer you and the rest of humanity are going to have to live divided. I’ll say it again, it’s not possible for them to see your side of things without them learning how to see your side of things. And the same goes for you.

Learn the REAL reasons why your friends/family are convinced to believe what they believe. Then focus on communicating your ideas clearly. Maybe have a religious discussion day once a month or so and then be patient. See what a difference you can make in 5 years time of well thought out and peaceful discussion.

Really, it may turn out that you agree with them. But it will only happen if you learn why they are convinced. Ignorance is the only reason we don’t agree with another person: we are ignorant of some fact(s) or premise(s) that would coerce our beliefs to be more like theirs. Education then is the only way to overcome ignorance and learn new things and develop new worldviews. Either you’ll be convinced by them or they’ll be convinced by you. But you won’t simply stay the same.

@Fyrius: But you still are not really answering my question. You cannot cite any way in which their beliefs impinge on, alter, or in any way affect your behavior.

You have decided that you simply cannot respect people who believe in something you don’t believe. It is up to you, not them, to decide if you want to be open-minded and respect the inherent worth and dignity of your friends, even when you disagree. If you can only respect people who agree with you across the board on all matters, you are going to have a very lonely existence indeed.

If I were you, I would find a way to reframe this. Do a real investigation, and find out what positive things religion provides for people: a sense of community, a sense of purpose, hope when all is lost, etc. Or reframe it as a “chocolate vs vanilla” argument: some people prefer chocolate ice cream and some prefer vanilla; some people prefer a god-based explanation of the inexplicable and some prefer… whatever the rest of us use.

Or build yourself a colony of like-minded robots who all agree with your worldviews. That could also be lots of fun.

@nikipedia I wonder, often, if it makes a difference that religion provides all these positive things because with one stroke people can undo that..with one political decision…I have studied many religions and I know why people need to believe this and that but it’s hard to discuss religion from an anthropological sense with believers because they’re not on the same plane…in that they can’t step outside themselves to see it as a social construct…because they don’t believe it’s a social construct…so how can I learn what it’s about if we don’t even start out on the same page?

@Fyrius, out of curiosity, have you you read Atheism by Michael Martin?

@Simone_De_Beauvoir: I don’t think I follow. What political decision undoes the positive benefits of religion?

And I think to lump “believers” into one category doesn’t do them justice. Here on Fluther we have lots of religious people who can very aptly scrutinize their belief system and discuss what it does for them and how they developed it. Certainly the other kind of believer exists, too—but I think when we are talking about a category that includes billions and billions of people, we have to be careful not to generalize too much.

And even if someone can’t step out of his/her belief system and view it as a social construct, I don’t think that necessarily prohibits you from examining it thoroughly, from all angles. It just means they probably won’t make a believer out of you, nor you out of them.

@nikipedia oh it undoes it in my mind…you can do however many things for charity but if you put in thousands of dollars to support anti-abortion work, what does it matter..it doesn’t matter, to me..and yes I totally understand that whole lumping thing..I was just doing that so I write quicker…I don’t lump believers…there are millions of different religions…I suppose I should just said Christians…fundamentalist Christians…I don’t like to generalize but there are many people of the Book (Muslims, Jews, Christians) and if they’re traditional in their beliefs about men and women or about gay people or about abortion, that’s a whole lotta people that I have a problem with…and I don’t see why (I’m not just being an ass here) I have to say ‘that’s okay, that’s what they believe, I have to agree to disagree’

Perhaps there’s money to be made in “Evangelical Atheist” t-shirts and bumper stickers…

@PandoraBoxx perhaps…xcept I don’t try to convert anyone

@Ivan “My girl”? I never knew you were a member of the Temptations.

I feel the same way about smoking. I simply do not associate with smokers. My parents were both smoked cigarettes and I am glad I lived over a thousand miles away from them, and they only visited my house on very rare occasions, and stayed in motels.

@Fyrius “What I object to about religion is the theistic aspect, every other aspect that makes unsubstantiated claims about the universe (no matter how vague), and the notion that it is the source of modern morality.”

What is it about the theistic aspect of religion you object to, the supernatural aspect, the idea of god as a human-like personality writ large, the idea of having to “submit” to any such an entity however conceived, or the lack of reductionist scientific proof? What if god were a hypothesis, a force of nature without a human-like personality, did not require your recognition, devotion or submission, and was not subject to scientific disproof (as most closely investigated claims of the magical, supernatural or miraculous are)?

Would you reject the extra dimensions of string theory, M-theory, or parallel universes as well on the grounds that its claims about the universe are predicted but, as yet, unsubstantiated? Is there, to your knowledge, any scientific theory or hypothesis that explains how consciousness can arise out of matter? So, how can you be sure that there that there are not beings with a different type of consciousness, perhaps pervading all of life and, possibly, even non-life? What about the Gaia hypothesis? Can you really say that it is absolutely not possible that our sentient intelligence not part of a planet-wide adaptive awareness common to all life?

If religion is not the source of morality, where does it come from? Do you think that social norms and mores spring out of nothing? I would recommend few books to you by Thomas Cahill “The Desire of the Everlasting Hills,” “The Gift of the Jews,” and “How the Irish Saved Civilization.” Each of these books marks a turning point in human moral history. The Jews, for example, gave us the idea of “progress” when they got up and left Ur in search of a better life; the Irish were the first people in the world to abolish slavery, which they did at the behest of St. Patrick (who had been a slave) on their conversion to Christianity.

The point is that secular life, when left to itself, tends toward materialism, money-grubbing, and despotism (cf. pagan Rome and China) if not challenged by “spiritual” traditions and their social movements. Those movements don’t necessarily have to be theistic, although the idea of a judging, vengeful god did seem to jump-start some of these early traditions and get them up to a point where they could adopt empathy, compassion and the golden rule as a basis for morality. Even now, the golden rule has to struggle against the materialistic thrust of capitalism and its secular ethos of profits before people.

Now I agree with you that there are fewer things more offensive than certain religions that try to push their formulas for ritual purification (food and sex taboos) on the rest of us, especially at the expense of compassion. But that is not a reason to reject religiously inspired morality. Consider the role of confession as an aid to keeping people from becoming demoralized and socially isolated due to their transgressions against social mores. Consider also the utility of mercy and forgiveness, and how this runs counter to people’s natural inclinations when they feel victimized. Would you chuck these ideas out because they are religiously inspired?

“I also object to taking another human’s word for it regarding what happens to you after you die and the like…”

Why? You are not obligated to believe any of it.

“I object to unwillingness to reconsider…”

Well, consider my points and let’s see if you exhibit the same flexibility that you demand from others.

“I object to having a psychological need to retain a belief.”

Why? The whole edifice of human knowledge is one of warranted belief. What is generally at issue is the warrant one has for a belief, not the psychological need to have a belief.

“For anyone over the age of twenty or so, I also object to still feeling the need for a parent figure to look out for you and tell you everything’s going to be all right, rather than facing a universe that was not custom-made for you to be happy in and seeing how you can make everything all right yourself.”

Actually we do live in a finely-tuned universe and part of that fine-tuning governs what we find pleasurable and painful—it is what guides us along our evolutionary trajectory. You needn’t believe that the universe was specially made for you by God in order to grasp that there is an intimate connection between you, your pleasures, your specie’s evolution, life, and the universe. If you think about it, moral constructs like “human dignity” apart from being pleasurable when respected, have a cultural survival value, which if you respect it in others, puts you in harmony with your fellow man, your species, life, and the universe.

Do you imagine that you are somehow “stronger” because you are alienated from your fellow man, life, and the universe? The fact is, we all lean on one another to a degree we can scarcely imagine until we are deprived of human company. If you don’t believe me, lock yourself in the bathroom and see how long you stay in there. If you don’t come out on your own, somebody will eventually break the door down to make sure you are alright. Whether you realize it or not, you are nestled and snuggled within the warm bosom of humanity, but it is true, even if you style yourself a lone, rugged individualist. If other people comprehend this up in received anthropomorphized mythological dress, is it really all that far from the truth?

And how else would you conceive of your individuality if not as a “child” of the larger “parent” body of Humanity (of which you are a microcosm)? When you are a child your parents are Humanity incarnate. They teach you the permissible limits of your individuality. If they did not abuse or abandon you, you have a strong sense of what it means to be human, and therefore what is morally permissible and what is not. In this respect, you are a child of something greater than your parents; you are a child of your culture and your times.

For those in relationships with differing beliefs, what happens when you have kids and you must decide on holidays, church, etc.? Like with @ivan, how will you deal with those things since you don’t believe in them?

I prefer a person with the same or similar beliefs. Too much controversy if we don’t.

I prefer a person who I like, regardless of what they happen to believe.

Certainly we all do. Doesn’t answer the question or negate what I said. Opposites attract, but fighting occurs over how the kids will be raised and I’d like to have that be less complicated by having the same or similar beliefs.

I am certainly not going to choose my partner based on how easy it’s going to be to indoctrinate our hypothetical children.

I wasn’t saying that. I go for the person I love, but I won’t ignore these issues with the relationship and if we can’t agree, then we can’t agree. You think your girl would be fine with the children not celebrating Christmas or attending church if you felt they shouldn’t because of your beliefs? Those are the issues I’m discussing. Love is not always enough. I merely suggest not being blind to those facts.

Nothing you said there can’t be rebutted by my previous comment.

Partners have enough to fight about without adding religion to the pile. Money, disciplining the kids, which side of the family you go to on holidays, who babysits, etc. For me, religion should be the least important obstacle.

The above is not directed at anyone.

You’re right, I’ll dump her tonight.

@Ivan Dude, my comment wasn’t directed at anyone, as it clearly stated before you left your comment. My opinions regarding the way I see my relationships have nothing to do with yours. Flame off.

I don’t think that you need to respect a person’s beliefs, or lack of them, to be a friend. You also shouldn’t base respect for a person on whether you agree with someone or not. I know I don’t have to tell you that while you see Christianity (& other religions) as being totally without basis, we who do believe see atheism as being the same. Also, being friends with someone doesn’t mean that you have to convert them to seeing things the way you do. As a Christian, I have a very good friend who is a muslim, and others who are atheists. I accept that I can be friends with them, while not agreeing with what they believe. That is just life. I have purposely decided never to work for my church, even though the opportunities have been there, because I enjoy working with non-Christians. I enjoy the discussions with those who think differently. I hope you can come to see it the same.

I’m going to stop replying to this thread, at least for now. I need to let it all sink in and take some time to reconsider my general views on other people’s beliefs.

Incidentally, making me defend my current positions is quite counter-productive to this.

But Fyrius, this is exactly how other people feel when you challenge their positions.

The point I am trying to make is that despite our celebrated individualism we are all intimately connected in a fundamental way. If I renege on a debt I owe you, I don’t simply deprive you of the amount owed; I chip away at your faith in people in general so that you are less likely to lend to others. If I betray you in a more substantial way, I don’t simply injure you, I poison you with my malevolence; I evoke vengefulness, hatred and mistrust in you. If I undermine and demoralize you, I don’t simply thwart you, I corrupt your integrity as a person. I injure you spiritually, especially if I have turned you into the kind of person who undermines and betrays others.

The details of creed and belief are simply rationalizations after the fact, and therefore of little consequence. What is really important is not whether you or I believe this or that, but whether we act in good faith—whether we are building each other up or tearing each other down. In other words, there is a kind of tacit religion among all of us that transcends creed and belief. It consists of keeping faith with one’s fellow man, by choosing to hear the moral claims those who have gotten the short end of things instead of turning a deaf ear; and only doing to others what one would have done to himself—and, perhaps, even giving better than one gets.

If you can actually show someone the objective folly of their beliefs, then perhaps you are accomplishing something worthwhile, but if you are simply tearing people down, that is something else again.

@Zuma
I fail to see how this bears on my personal feelings towards my real-life religious friends. I’m not going to try to convert any of them to atheism.

Please don’t argue this point with me. Not now. I’ll read whatever walls of text you throw at me once I’ve straightened out my thoughts on this.

Incidentally, are you aware that right now, it is you who is inconsiderately challenging my positions?

Yes, Fyrius has been a bad boy. And he is now starting to see the errors in his ways and trying to mend them. But if you tempt me to defend my current beliefs, you will only make it more difficult for me to have an open mind about this.

question? what are you thinking over exactly?

How it bears, Fyrius, is whether you are approaching your friends in good faith when you act on your feelings about their beliefs (e.g., bringing up the subject in the first place). Keep in mind that I am an atheist too, and I have the same dilemmas as you do. The way I have made my peace with it, to the extent I have, is to meet them half way by acknowledging “the tacit religion we all share” I was trying to explain in my last post.

I am aware that I am challenging your positions, but I wasn’t aware that I was doing so inconsiderately. My sense is that you are tarring all believers with the same brush, which is kind of like judging cities by their Greyhound Bus stations. Anyway, I’ll bow out now and let you think think things over.

@Zuma
Thank you.

Incidentally, I haven’t ever brought this subject up among my real-life friends.
In fact, unless they noticed it in the personal information on my Facebook page, recognised my Scarlet A or picked up on subtle expressions of atheism-related views when religion-related subjects came up, most of them might not even be aware of my stance on the matter.

guess we’ll all have to just sit back and see what happens, eh?

By all means, keep talking. Just don’t expect me to join you.