I think you could be a new age philosopher :) you have awesome ideas and questions!!! lol I’m not even sure about these questions…I guess the only way we can find out is to get a guinea pig and test everything out!!! :-p

These Socratic questions lead me to the conclusion that it is wrong to ban nudity.

This is a fun question. Nudity should be celebrated, not banned. He’s still got a Y chromosome. That’s a man in my book, no matter how many girly parts he gets. I agree with @k8tie2237, we should test this all out. Let’s all go to the beach and get nude.
I think the whole hermaphroditic concept is hot, you know, in between genders, but that’s for another discussion… ^^;

I’m so offended by your he/she drivel that I can’t even articulate an answer. If someone identifies as a certain sex/gender that’s what I’ll go by. It doesn’t matter what body parts one has. As far as the law is concerned, they are so limited or nonexistent that it’s impossible to say.

Come back and try again when you can use the right pronouns.

As far as classification goes, it should be by whatever the genes say. On the beach, there should be no law dictation the coverage of a swimsuit. That is just archaic. There are already far too many people in prison. Further, the should and must be free from the threat of abuse from other prisoners. Anyone that threatens or harms another prisoner should go to immediate solitary confinement so it doesn’t matter what sex the prisoner claims.

Saying “he/she” in this context is just as offensive as just saying “he”.

SHE would be legally allowed to remove HER top only in places where it is legal for women to do so.

SHE would go to a womens prison IF her gender marker on passport & drivers license has been changed to female. It is not a legal requirement to complete all surgery for this to happen. If the gender marker has not been legally changed (some countries and some US states don’t allow it) then she would be stuck in a male prison, and I wouldn’t place a bet on her chances of coming out alive.

However if she is on hormone replacement therapy, then whatever is left between her legs would most likely not be functional except for urination.

Case in point – transmen, who transition the other way (female to male) often skip genital surgery altogether because phalloplasty (reconstruction of a penis) is a very risky and not always successful procedure. Even when it goes 100% to plan, it falls short of the real thing in appearance and functionality. But that doesn’t prevent transmen getting their gender marker changed to male.

This person is a woman but the cops won’t treat her as such because they’re transphobic and will only look at the ‘M’ on the driver’s license – meaning, ironically, that they can’t charge her for indecent exposure. Not to mention, p.s., that it is wrong, imo, to charge women with this ‘crime’ and not men. Finally, if she were arrested, she’d be placed with male inmates (wrongfully).

@downtide Why is “he/she” offensive? I mean, that is the dilemma here. Is she a he yet or not in the eyes of the law? I don’t think the OP meant it like people mean it when they say he-she, like it’s all one word… can understand why “he-she” would be offensive.

@Dutchess_III No one’s having a dilemma except you and ‘the law’ – this person identifies as a woman, it matters litte whether or not she’s ‘still got the penis’ or whatever else is on her documents.

@Simone_De_Beauvoir I appreciate your input. However I was talking to downtide. I think this was an interesting question, and yes it is a bit of a dilemma. What’s the answer? If you don’t know the answer, then it’s a dilemma. If she gets arrested and gets thrown in with the male population, that could be a problem since she’s partially physically a woman. If she gets arrested and thrown in with the female population, then that’s a problem because she’s still partially physically a male. They have reasons for seperating the sexes in jail. Sounds like a dilemma to me!

@Dutchess_III I find those reasons to be ridiculous like all else involved in sex separation – rape, obviously, occurs regardless. As does rape of transpeople, especially.

@Hypocrisy_Central I think what the gentle folks were trying to tell us is that if a person identifies themselves as a gender opposite to the one they were born into, it’s only common courtesy to refer to that person by the pronoun they identify with. In other words, the person in your example should only have been referred to as “she.” I can live with that. I don’t understand why someone couldn’t have just politely educated us.

@Simone_De_Beauvoir Well, if, as in the example above, in all outward respects she looks like a woman, don’t you think there could be a problem with throwing her in with the male population? A problem for her? A “dilemma” for her?

However, in the example above, I don’t imagine she’d be serving much jail time before she bonded out so maybe she’d get out before anything happened to her.

@Dutchess_III You always talk about being politely educated…how many times do we have to do this before you feel you’ve learned this one simple point?
Yes, there will be a problem – that’s why transphobia is a problem…she shouldn’t be thrown in with the male population.

@Simone_De_Beauvoir But in this case she probably WOULD be….also, this is not a case of “trans_phobia_,” not right off the bat. She looks like a woman, she’ll be treated like a women by the male inmates. However, if they ever get around to looking her intimately the “transphobia” will kick in then, if it’s going to.

@Dutchess_III The so called justice system ignoring a person’s gender presentation and what they care to be considered in favor of a legal sex placed on them eons ago (all the while making it extrememly difficult, systematically, to change one’s sex) and throwing them into a wrong area is transphobia.

That’s a good point Simone. But you’re assuming every legal entity involved will be transphobic. Don’t know if that’s a given or not. At any rate, even if they weren’t, it still presents a problem for her, legally. Gosh, I guess she’d better leave her shirt on!

@Dutchess_III Well, I’m quite familiar with the NYC police and justice system in relationship to transgender people here in NYC for the past 10 years and so it’s a given, to me.

K.
This was a good question, BTW!

When a person identifies as a woman, then her brain experiences life as a female. Changing the rest of the body to match with hormones and some or all of the surgery is a gradual process and an expensive one. When she starts living as a woman, she is a female. Treat that person as such and you will be respectful and humane. The presence of the Y chromosome or an M on a document or even a penis between the legs, does not change how the brain and the person feel and experience their life.

@Dr_Lawrence I think all of us here respect that. But that’s not really what the question was about…..

BTW, you said, “When she starts living as a woman, she is a female.” what exactly did you mean by that? You mean after all the surgery is done?

I think there is a difference in situation in how you deal with people. If it is a casual acquaintance, you take that person at face value, if he or she acts and looks like their claimed gender, treat them as presented. If however that person is applying for state benefits, passport, drivers license, or security clearance, you must know who they REALL are. Even people applying for a reputable gender reassignment have to go through an evaluation to find out who the REALLY are. So the point is if a woman says she’s a woman and is part of your bowling league, fine she’s a woman (especially if she’s good at it). If you propose marriage, apply for a drivers license, you must prove your sex as well as other identifying characteristics including citizenship.

Simple really.

tinyfaery Dutchess_III*” I’m so offended by your he/she drivel that I can’t even articulate an answer. If someone identifies as a certain sex/gender that’s what I’ll go by.”* First off the “he/she” was not an attempt to call or label the person as an “it” or “thing” it was to give people the choice to insert which one they believed without having to go to the generic “it”. Some would see “her” as a dude because even if there were 80 girly parts as unused_bagels say, there would still be a penis in spite of the fact “she” did not recognize it or want it. Others will lean more your way, if she dresses, has mannerisms, and identifies as a woman then she is a woman in spite of the external parts or what the driver’s license say.

” SHE would be legally allowed to remove HER top only in places where it is legal for women to do so.” But “she” is still a legal man so would that not preclude that ”she” could be topless anywhere a man can legally be topless in spite of how feminine the breast look? Or are guys who look and dress like ladies fall under a different law or treatment?

Ron_C ”As far as classification goes, it should be by whatever the genes say.” Logically that should be the prevailing case, however here in America we have a love/hate relationship with boobs, or should I say more so with the nipple of the breast. Though many may not like you can expose just about any area of the breast, show tons of cleavage etc, and not be dinged with an exposure infraction but show nipple other than nursing a baby and WHAM you are in violation. Not to mention many men with “moobs” have them larger than most women (they are just not as pretty) so it almost begs to ask you can have a chest that looks like breast so long as you add hair to it and put a penis down below. A man with boob-like pecs will never be deemed indecent (though many of them should).

”This person is a woman but the cops won’t treat her as such because they’re transphobic and will only look at the ‘M’ on the driver’s license – meaning, ironically, that they can’t charge her for indecent exposure.” I would say it would or could be trasphobic if because ”she” has the official ‘M’ stamp on the driver’s license the law see ”her” as a dude and she can use that loophole to get an all over tan no bikini lines and the cops harass ”her” for it because they can’t legally bust or site ”her” then one would have to think some bias going on.

Dutchess_III Simone_De_Beauvoir I can see both positions because people do get attacked and or raped in prison, however most of those in jail (until they are convicted or freed) for rape are there for raping women not other men. To put a person in with them men who look like a woman can cause all sorts of problems of the jail, and ”her”. Some of those guys no they are going a way for long time and they are not going to have access to any females (not in a way they can be sexual) so “-“she” might be seen as their last opportunity. Saving grace might be that they have not done years in county jail so they may not be as desperate about trying to ply sex from ”her”, prison would certainly be a different matter. Would there be people who would have transphobic reactions? Yes. Imagine each day you sat in jail you had to see this person who reminds you of the pussy you may never have again or not for a long, long time. There logically would be more chance at resentment than not, from all areas where that resentment would come I can’t say but part will be because “she”” would be seen as a fake woman (that is just how some will see it wrong or right). Those who don’t mind ”her” in between status might even have fights over who can try to have at “her” because in their mind if they are going to be locked up a long time and have to resort to men sexually better to have one that looks like a woman than some fat guy with a beard.

Dr_Lawrence ”When a person identifies as a woman, then her brain experiences life as a female.” ”Treat that person as such and you will be respectful and humane. The presence of the Y chromosome or an M on a document or even a penis between the legs, does not change how the brain and the person feel and experience their life.” I have no qualms with that, that is logically what one should expect. The question here is beyond what the person thinks of themselves, I can think myself any number of things but I may not legally be recognized as it. Here you have someone who feels female, looks 80% or better as female but legally and officially is male, and it is the official part that trumps most others. So in spite of many being uncomfortable with the female breast if possessed my an official man could any one do anything about it less mumble under their breath? And if the person was ticked or arrested because of the official ‘M’ would the charges stick? And there are other areas as well that in spite which sex a person feels like, if they have parts of the other that determines their official gender they are includes or excluded regardless of how they feel. For example a female going from she to he if “he” had the boobs removed, hair implanted on the face, a surgically contrasted Adams apple, and male hormones but nothing changed below the belt and wanted to enlist as a grunt in the Marines to go fight in Afghanistan the Marines I don’t think will bite if ”he” still has the official ‘F’ on the license and such.

@Hypocrisy_Central I’m on your side! Not sure how you were referring to me in your first post….

@Hypocrisy_Central: ”First off the “he/she” was not an attempt to call or label the person as an “it” or “thing” it was to give people the choice to insert which one they believed without having to go to the generic “it”.”

I didn’t read your reply past that. But if that’s how you’re operating, you should be consistent and do it all the time, no matter who you’re talking about. Also, take no offense when people call you by feminine pronouns because they want to, regardless of how you identify, since you think it’s their choice.

@Dutchess_III I guess I was not too clear I was referring to he/she moniker is that depending on which capacity the person is seen as even if she identifies as a she others will officially still see “her” as a dude because Rober Earl is still intact. Only that it is not so much as what they want to be called as to how they will officially be called. That was all I meant to point out. Seeing I do not know who is seeing her as which I gave the either or choice.

@Hypocrisy_Central And for fuck’s sake, stop saying “she” and “her” like that. It’s condescending, rude, uneducated, and infuriating.

.

@Hypocrisy_Central Obviously if we don’t know the situation we just call it as we see it. But we know the story in this situation….so they were taking offense that you were calling her by both pronouns.

In the U. S. society in general is still in transition about this whole subject. The ones who are living it are in a constant battle to educate people, and often become confrontational. There have been some excellent TV programs that discuss the issue.

This question seems to be way too hypothetical to make much out of it. If you were asking about a specific individual in a specific situation, I would find it more interesting.

YARNLADY The crux of the discussion that lead to the question was if you have a person who is an official man but looks near like a woman less 20% of change would this official man be able to go to a pool or beach and to topless as men can or because the chest look so much like female breast as to invoke a “put your shirt on, leave, of have the cops come around”? Legally it would seem quite cut and dry but some feel it would go more on what is seen over official gendering off a license or from birth, it is all about the legality vs. what it appears to people not if transgendered person are allowed, included, excluded from anything or any other issues. Socially it appears to be a legal Gray area.

Dutchess_III Society has no moniker (at least gender wise) to address people who find themselves in that situation. I could choose to go of just the official moniker as stated on legal and official documents no matter how the person feels or I can use the either or choice since many people –do_ see it as either or; one side or the other. Should I use the exclusive her in the capacity that she was born a her as any other female who is to say some other people would not be offended because they won’t see her as anything but a he pretending to be a her or trying to make themselves into a her when he is not. To try to give both the option of seeing the person how they want, biologically, mentally, psychologically or whatever. :-)

no matter what you are, one should never show the boobs in public, even if you are not changing your sex, is so disgusting to see fat guys with their shirts off showing those manboobs :S , also note that i said “should” that doesn’t mean that i would hate the idea to show mine or see other GIRL’s sometime <3

@Ron_C Who she really is is a woman – what her body was sexed as a child is not who she really is – to say that you are going to be sensitive to people’s preferred gender identities and in the same breath mention that no matter that, in reality (whose reality?, yours?) they’re otherwise is contradictory.
@Hypocrisy_Central – there is no reason to use quotations marks around the word her – and the official shouldn’t trump all.

@Simone_De_Beauvoir there are two different types of identity. Personally I think that I’m a superhero and pretty sure that I can fly and see through walls. None of that matters when I apply for my driver’s license or passport.

You need to prove who your are officially. I had a Top Secret security clearance. They found out that I got a QSL card from the Soviet Union when I was in grade school. I was what was officially on my birth certificate and used, or didn’t use drugs according to my blood test. That was my “Official” identity. That is all I am saying about two different and probably exclusive identities. Your official identity is also important to your doctor. It doesn’t matter what you want it matters what your are physically.

@Ron_C Actually, doctors are completely incapable when it comes to transpeople because they’re so ignorant of what a transperson might use for their sex change and how it can affect people. Treating a transperson as their legal sex when it comes to medical decisions is why transpeople don’t trust the healthcare system.

@Simone_De_Beauvoir it’s not the sex aspect that bothers me, it’s the surgery. I can’t understand voluntarily going under the knife. I’ve had a couple necessary operations, to go through major reconstructive surgery voluntarily is beyond my understanding.

@Ron_C Perhaps it is beyond your understanding but it’s not beyond that of other people – as a gender non conforming person who doesn’t want to change their body, I wish more people would be accepted without needing to cut their bodies but reality isn’t so.

@Simone_De_Beauvoir I’m fine with accepting them. The only thing that makes me cringe is the surgery.

@Ron_C Well then thank your stars that you don’t have a severe hatred of a body part like many transpeople do – sadly, because of the gender binary being so limiting, many feel that if they don’t feel like the sex/gender they were raised to be, they simply must be the opposite one.

@Simone_De_Beauvoir yes, I am thankful.

In the process of foetal development of a male two main things must happen. Since we all start out as female, the chemical signals must lead to the development of the male configuration of the genitals and the brain must be hormonally masculinized. Where the latter does not happen, the result is a female brain trapped in a male body.

In the female to male case, the brain has been hormonally masculinized but the genital configuration fails to conform to the male form.

When a person, misclassified as a male on the basis of male genitalia undertakes the steps leading to gender change or even gender reassignment, there comes a point where they dress and live as the gender their brain tells them they have always been. At that point, she should seek to have her sex or record legally changed. She should be considered female and be treated as such.

The chromosomal Karyotype usually is correct but is not an absolute. Foetal development sometimes goes awry and the resulting experiential phenotype does not match the physical phenotype. Our sexuality is in our brain, where or sense of self derives and our gender identity is expressed. Our choice of partner is determined there too. We use the rest of our body to enact our sexuality. This can be a problem when the external configuration feels wrong to the person.
It must be a horrible experience to feel trapped in the wrong type of body.

To blindly define another person’s gender based on external genitalia is to overlook the complex developmental process of differentiating into the gender your brain understands. This results in forcing people to act contrary to what people know is true.

@Dr. L Lurve ya for that.

I’m late replying to these because I’ve been away for a few days.

@Dutchess_III calling a transsexual person “he/she” is offensive because it shows that you are not acknowledging their identity. It is not necessary for anyone to have had their “M” changed to “F” on their drivers license in order for members of the public to have a bit of common decency and politeness. You are allowed to use the pronoun of their choice, even if it’s not legal yet.

The dilemma about what cops do however, is entirely based on that legal gender marker, and that is one of the biggest hurdles that transsexuals face in society. Our society is inherently gendered and inherently transphobic. You get segregated by gender all the way through life. In school. In work. In prison. In hospital. In the gym. When travelling. When filling in forms. Society provides for only two options, and expects that everyone identifies exactly with that “M” or “F” on their official ID. Problems occur when a person’s identity does not match with the legally-assigned gender, whether or not they identify as the opposite one, or as neither, or both.

In an arrest situation, the police and prison authorities will look only at the legal ID, even if it is incongruent with the transsexual person’s appearance. So she gets thrown into a men’s prison. If she’s lucky she will be kept in isolation. It might send her insane but at least she won’t be raped or murdered.

If she has the gender marker changed on her ID already (which still might be the case in your hypothetical scenario – as I said it’s possible to get that marker changed even before surgery is completed) then she will go into a women’s prison. In that sort of situation it’s highly likely that her status as a transsexual wouldn’t even be mentioned and to all intents and purposes she would be introduced to the other inmates as a woman and treated as such.

Regarding the topless-in-public question. She has breasts, not man-boobs. If it’s illegal for a woman to exhibit her breasts in public, it will be illegal for a man or a transsexual to do so as well, regardless of what the legal ID says. Breasts are breasts, whoever has them, and they’re viewed as indecent.

If a transgendered man gets his legal ID changed before he gets his breasts removed, then he still, as a legal man, cannot take off his top in public even though naturally-born men without breasts can do so. So it seems that in this case, physical appearance trumps legal ID, whereas in the prison case it doesn’t.

Now do you see how society is so difficult for transsexual people to cope with? On one hand we’re told one thing and on the other hand we’re told something else, and it’s a constant tightrope-walk. So yes, in actual fact we DO have laws which are different from non-transsexual people, and the differences are almost never in the transsexual person’s favour. This is an example of how society is inherently transphobic.

@Dr_Lawrence wonderful post. Thankyou.

My breasts are not indecent!!! Waaa! Um. Why would women’s breasts be considered indecent, when obese, topless men have “boobs” that are bigger than a lot of female breasts???

@downtide Thanks. I figured that out about the he/she thing. It’s really, really hard to do sometimes, though, to be honest. We have a transgendered person here in town…from male to female. But there is no way in hell she can actually pass as a female from outward appearances. She simply looks like a guy with long, long hair. She speaks in a male-sounding voice. She has the distinctive muscles of a male, not the softer lines of a female. She drives a road grader for a living. It’s very hard to call her a “she” without feeling like I’m tripping….

@Dutchess_III I don’t think breasts are indecent either but unfortunately the rest of Western society does think so and this is the society that makes the laws. It’s cases like the transsexual woman in the OP getting thrown into a male prison, even though it puts her life at risk, that illustrates how badly these laws need to be changed. Until they are changed, there will continue to be headlines about transsexuals getting murdered in prison or beaten up in the streets simply for daring to be themselves.

It is hard, with the pronouns. I find that people who only knew me after I presented as male are naturally happy and comfortable to call me by my male name and use male pronouns (even though I’m pre-op I still look very masculine). But people who have known me since before, still call me “she” and use my old name, and I think it’s mostly habit. Habits like that are hard to break.

I know @downtide. I was jokin’!’
This is changing the subject slightly, but generally speaking women will not take off their shirts in public. Not only because they could be arrested but because we’ve been raised to view that as a huge No No. I know it’s because of conditioning, but I would be mortified to have to take my shirt off in public. So, this brings up another question. When transgendering, what kinds of “conditioning” have you had to throw off, and what new kinds of “conditioning” do you have to pick up? For example, if, as a male you were comfortable with taking your shirt off in public, would you, as a female, still feel comfortable taking your shirt off in public? (This is a hypothetical question of sorts, so lets hypothetically assume you wouldn’t get in legal trouble for doing so.)

@Dutchess_III Oooh. Very interesting questions. There’s so much conditioning, most of it so subtle that most people don’t even notice it and it starts at such a young age with the first baby clothes – a blue baby suit with “Bob the Builder” on it or a pink one with “Barbie” on it. Boys and girls are given different toys – ever seen how much of a fuss is caused in pre-school or kindergarten when a little boy chooses to play with dolls instead of trucks? Later on it’s choice of subjects at school, where girls are subtly steered towards the arts and boys towards the sciences, and any student who chooses opposite to that is considered either weird or brave or special.

I find it really hard to identify what things abot myself are naturally me and what things are due to conditioning. I was lucky – my parents didn’t try to force me into dresses or stop me from playing with boys toys; I was a proper little tomboy, and that continued into adulthood. So I think of my habits and mannerisms as being male because that’s what I am. And I am 100% certain that I would be comfortable with taking my shirt off on the beach, if I didn’t have breasts. It’s not just the law that prevents me from doing so – it’s the knowledge that my body is wrong, and doesn’t reflect who I really am, and I don’t want other people to see this wrong-ness.

@downtide Interesting. Thank you. And yes the gender bending does start at an early age.

@downtide ”And I am 100% certain that I would be comfortable with taking my shirt off on the beach, if I didn’t have breasts.” If you were in Europe somewhere on beach where women were topless (since they are more mature in that and not go freaking the moment they see a nipple) would you still feel queasy about ripping that shirt off even though most other women about you have their top off so you would virtually go unnoticed?

@Hypocrisy_Central Yes – I do live in Europe (England) and I have been to such places, and I still kept my t-shirt on because men aren’t supposed to have breasts.

@downtide men aren’t supposed to have breasts. Here in the US there are a lot of men with “moobs” (large flabby male pecs) that would put some smaller women to shame size wise, and they seem to have no compuction walking about with their shirt off with what appears two large hairy tits on them.