Social Question

cockswain's avatar

What would be a reasonable solution to illegal immigration from Mexico?

Asked by cockswain (15286points) March 7th, 2010

Obviously this is a subject of much controversy, but potentially an area of great opportunity as well. Illegal immigration will not end, so is there a mutually beneficial solution? To me, the root of the problem is in the existing conditions that drive Mexicans to seek a better life in the US. There is an argument they drain resources being here illegally, and an argument if immigration policies are reformed we could increase the taxable base to pay for the consumed resources. What do you think could help?

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68 Answers

mrrich724's avatar

The illegals are doing work here that alot of us would NOT want to do. So I say legalize them, give them equal opportunities, then tax them.

Captain_Fantasy's avatar

My city has adopted a sanctuary plan which involved not deporting any illegal immigrants, which unfortunately they’ve extended to violent criminals. That plan hasn’t been working out so well.
My illegal immigration plan primarily focuses on deporting criminals immediately and without question.

jaytkay's avatar

Immigrants pay plenty of taxes. Sales taxes, property taxes (indirectly if they rent). Many are paying state, federal and social security taxes.

If they are ducking taxes, it’s only because a resident is illegally paying them cash under the table. But for some reason, the Mexicans are the “illegals” in that transaction.

mrrich724's avatar

@Captain_Fantasy

That sounds great, give them a chance until they’ve decided they came to the US to do bad. Then ship them off.

mrrich724's avatar

@jaytkay

I don’t get it. Can a company claim taxes on an employee that they shouldn’t legally have working for them?

cockswain's avatar

@jaytkay I’m referring to illegal immigrants, not the ones that pay federal and state taxes. I get illegals pay sales and property, but if they are paid off the books they avoid OASDI, state, and federal. The employer avoid unemployment insurance, and their half of OASDI. I don’t think too many people (besides racists) have a problem with legal immigrants and their contributions.

cockswain's avatar

@Captain_Fantasy Deport at our expense? After prosecution or not? If so, at our expense, if not how are they judged?

laureth's avatar

If they are working under a fake social security number, as some must do in order to get work, they pay taxes but cannot file a return.

Captain_Fantasy's avatar

Who’s expense then? It’s not like Mexico is going to write us a check for it.
Obviously prevention is the key here but if we’re going to secure the border with Mexico, it’s going to take more than the minutemen to do it.

And mrrich, dont get on my case. I don’t like the import of criminals into our society either so I dont know what you’re on about unless you’re just being disagreeable for argument’s sake.
Deporting criminals seems pretty straighforward to me.
I wouldn’t have thought that deporting criminals here illegally would be such a hotly contested issue. My mistake apparently.

mrrich724's avatar

@Captain_Fantasy

I was agreeing with you . . . that was not sarcasm. I know the cost of jailing a criminal here, and I’d rather spend a fraction of that money deporting them.

Sorry if the inflection of my comment was misleading, but I was agreeing with you.

Captain_Fantasy's avatar

My bad. I’m used to people being sarcastic with me.
Sorry about that.

cockswain's avatar

@laureth Ah, of course.

@Captain_Fantasy What do you propose in addition to securing the border?

Pseudonym's avatar

Give them a chance to become citizens. And improve the immigration system. Do you think that the border is very welcoming? Are you really that dissapointed that you can’t be the janitor?

jaytkay's avatar

Plenty of illegal immigrants pay federal and state taxes.

More than half of the estimated seven million immigrants toiling illegally in the United States get a regular paycheck every week or two, experts say. At the end of the year they receive a W-2 form. Come April 15, many file income tax returns using special ID numbers issued by the Internal Revenue Service so foreigners can pay taxes
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/06/19/business/19illegals.html

The Social Security Administration estimates that about three-quarters of illegal workers pay taxes that contribute to the overall solvency of Social Security and Medicare.
http://www.usatoday.com/money/perfi/taxes/2008-04-10-immigrantstaxes_N.htm

What’s more, aliens who are not self-employed have Social Security and Medicare taxes automatically withheld from their paychecks. Since undocumented workers have only fake numbers, they’ll never be able to collect the benefits these taxes are meant to pay for. Last year, the revenues from these fake numbers — that the Social Security administration stashes in the “earnings suspense file” — added up to 10 percent of the Social Security surplus. The file is growing, on average, by more than $50 billion a year.
http://reason.org/news/show/122411.html

wilma's avatar

If they are here illegally then they are criminals. If they break the law in other ways while they are here illegally then they are still criminals.
Deport them.
I’m all for immigration, that is how my family arrived here.
Make the immigration system work better and more efficiently. Let honest hardworking immigrants come here by following the rules and laws of our country.
I don’t agree that there aren’t legal American workers willing to do the work that illegals do.
I don’t see that where I live at all.

laureth's avatar

@wilma, a lot of the work illegals do is migrant agricultural work. Not even the undergrads I know are willing to travel around the country following the harvest, sleeping too-many-to-a-trailer to earn a few dollars a day and no health care to pick peaches, tomatoes and strawberries.

cockswain's avatar

@Pseudonym @wilma Could you guys elaborate beyond suggesting we improve the immigration system? That’s the discussion I’d like to have ;)

@jaytkay Correct, I hadn’t considered those with fake social security numbers, good point. But your stats do imply there is a potentially much larger tax base. How do we take advantage of that?

Jack3090's avatar

I live in Mexico, and illegal immigrants are a problem for us as well; not only because mexican are treated awfully on the border, but because we also have our own problems with illegal immigrants who come to Mexico from Southamerica to then go to the USA.

For me, a reasonable solution would be first to inform people; they believe there are great working conditions over there and the pay is great, which is not at all true for them.

Then maybe give them a chance to do it legally; they go to get a their visas and they deny them, so they search for the next solution, which is crossing illegaly.

jaytkay's avatar

your stats do imply there is a potentially much larger tax base. How do we take advantage of that?

Vote for Democrats.

The GOP has a tough time reconciling it’s base groups on this. It’s the poverty-wage business lobby versus the racists.
”...many corporations feel pressured. By opposing the GOP’s anti-immigrant faction business runs the risk of ushering in more Democrats in the 2006 elections. But Tancredo and his allies pose a more immediate threat to business’ long-term need for a steady stream of foreign workers.”
http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/06_15/c3979075.htm

wilma's avatar

@laureth I know that a lot of the work they do is agricultural, I live in an agricultural area.
We have very few illegals working here. Most of the migrant workers here are Texas Americans, they and their families have come here every year for generations. As for “undergrads” not being willing to do the work. I know plenty who would do it. My own children have done and do, “do it”, and so did I when I was an “undergrad”. I have hoed many a tough row in my lifetime. Apparently we live in very different worlds.

wilma's avatar

@cockswain I would love to be able to elaborate about improving the immigration system.
Unfortunately I don’t have a lot of answers there. I know that there must be a better way, and just letting things stay the way they are, or giving them all amnesty, isn’t the answer in my opinion.

malevolentbutticklish's avatar

1. Arrest criminals.
2. Jail criminals.
3. Bring in legal replacements from Asia if needed for work. We must reward legal immigrants and punish those countries which encourage illegal immigration to America.
4. Keep criminals jailed for long enough that they have no incentive to just come back over the boarder. This doesn’t mean 30 days. This will be at great cost. Since they are not citizens we could decide to charge them for their own jail time. We should charge Mexico whatever fees the illegals from Mexico do not pay. In this way we should recoup the money.

john65pennington's avatar

Anyone is welcome to America as long as they are here legally. to date, there are approx. 30 million illegal hispanic immigrants all across the country. any solution to illegal problems should have been resolved years ago. instead, the federal government just “looked the other way” and allowed the illegals to gain momentum in strength. the illegals are causing hospitals to go bankrupct because of outdated free federal medical care and the law. there is no solution. what do you do with 30 million illegal immigrants? no one state wants them housed in their backyard and the cost to extridite them back to Mexico would bankrupct America. i knew this day was coming and its not over yet. illegals do not have bank accounts because they are afraid of deportation and being recognized. they do pay taxes for the same reason. they send their money back across the border and do not contribute to the U.S. economy. in other words, the illegals are like leeches sucking America dry. some of my best friends are hispanics. but, they are living and working in America legally. i back them in any endeavor. why are the illegals here and the immigration laws not being enforced? its called GREED. did you know that the big factories that once use to be in America, are now in Mexico? like, Kimberly-Clark, John Deere, Whirlpool and many others. they are there for the cheap labor and bottomline profits or GREED. big American factories in Mexico for 30 million illegal immigrants in America….....whats wrong with this picture? the death of Americans losing their jobs to illegal immigrants…....thats whats wrong. where will all of this end? who knows. the illegals are not stupid. they are milking every law they can for their advantage. we could just take the state of Texas and let all the illegals be transported there and just take over the state. at least we would know their location. i promised my wife that i would not get involved with any more questions, concerning illegal immigrants. but, you asked the question and that started my fire to burning once again. there is no solution. its too late.

jealoustome's avatar

“A simple supply-and-demand framework is useful for considering the potential effect of immigrants on employment opportunities for workers already in the United States.” This simple statement from the Congressional Budget Office (CBO) report, “The Role of Immigrants in the U.S. Labor Market,” encapsulates the issue at hand: whether or not immigrants are a boon or detriment to the American economy. Supply and demand is a simple framework for viewing a complex and emotional problem. The common and widely held misconceptions related to the economic instabilities and native job loss created by immigrants, both legal and unauthorized, most often fail to take into account the facts surrounding the actual available supply of native born workers and the demand that pulls foreign born workers into our economy.

There are two commonly held misconceptions that are bandied among national and local media, lawmakers and many members of the public. First, that illegal immigrants are “taking all of our jobs,” and, second, that illegal immigrants are, basically, wards of the state because of their over-consumption of state welfare services.

The first misconception relies heavily upon anecdotal evidence. In a typical day spent traveling around the Metro Denver area, one can see Spanish-speaking persons of Hispanic or Indigenous Central and South American descent engaged in many openly visible occupations: road and construction crews, janitors, food service workers, and other low-income occupations. The jobs are not hidden away, closeted in wealthy homes as maids and nannies only, instead, the work that is being done by this segment of the population is visible to all and, as such, creates a misconception about the effect on native born workers.

However, research shows that most foreign-born workers are limited to low income occupations by their education levels; while the numbers of native-born persons who do not complete high school is shrinking, the number of foreign born workers who have not completed high school is overwhelming. The effect on U.S. workers is only negative for a small percentage of the population and that percentage is shrinking each year. The concern that immigrants are taking all of the jobs away from U.S. citizens and lowering the wages of jobs that U.S. citizens do are unfounded. In fact, the Bell Policy Center report titled, “Immigration: Effects on Colorado and the Nation,” relates the fact that, “The NRC found that immigrants have little overall effect on wages paid to native workers, including skilled and unskilled, male and female, and minority and white. The NRC found that immigration reduced wages of competing native-born workers by 1 or 2 percent.”

The second misconception assumes that immigrants come to the United States mainly to use our services, while contributing little else. Once again the Bell Policy Center says, “The fiscal balance for immigrants, particularly undocumented immigrants, is one of the most hotly debated aspects of the immigration issue.” The report defines the fiscal balance as, “The difference between what people pay in taxes compared to the cost of public services used”. The report goes on to detail the actual impacts of foreign-born persons on our public assistance systems. The most interesting detail in the report is the fact that unauthorized immigrants use the least amount of services for fear of deportation. This is in direct contradiction to most commonly held perceptions about this population. Another point of interest is that fact that legal immigrants pose a revenue benefit to the federal government and country as a whole, but generally provide an added cost to local and state governments in k-12 education and healthcare services. While this commonly held misconception plays a major role in rhetoric related to immigration reform, conservative, mainstream and liberal analyses all seem to conclude that revoking access to services is not an effective way to reform immigration. Because health and education services cannot be denied to children, revoking services from unauthorized immigrants will only slightly reduce the costs involved in serving them while raising the costs associated with the programs themselves in the form of more paperwork and litigation.

In a Center for Immigration Studies report, Stephen Camerota states that, “Because illegals are not even supposed to be in the country, many Americans are angered by the fact that they receive any services at all. […] Most illegal aliens come for jobs, and the vast majority are in fact employed. But low levels of education mean they unavoidably create large costs for taxpayers.” This statement supports the supposition that it is the illegality and the perceived unfairness of unauthorized immigrants use of services that creates a level of tension and bias among the American public, not necessarily a fact-based understanding of the impacts of unauthorized immigrants upon the system.
Overall, the effect of immigrants on the economy can be evaluated based upon the supply and demand model. The jobs that immigrants fill are jobs that only a small segment of our population can or are willing to fill. The conclusion of the report by the CBO asks:
How would those jobs have been filled in the absence of the new immigrants? Presumably, some of those jobs would have been filled by other workers; in that case, employers might have been required to pay higher wages or to find other ways of making the jobs more attractive. Some jobs might not have been filled at all if employers were not ready to pay the required compensation; in that case, the goods and services would not have been produced. In other cases, employers might have changed the way that they produced those goods and services—for example, by automating or changing the mix of needed skills to better reflect those of the available labor pool.

The jobs created and filled for employers by immigrant workers are jobs that stimulate our economy. A restaurant that is built by immigrant labor will employ native born persons as waitstaff and management, buy produce and supplies from local farms and national vendors, serve food to local patrons, pay taxes to local, state and federal government, and, in some cases, raise surrounding property values. If the restaurant owner had been required to hire only native-born persons to build or remodel her new establishment, the cost may have been prohibitive or she may not have been able to find the labor she needed at all. The loss over time in jobs and local spending would have far outweighed the public cost of the immigrants who worked on the project.

The impact of immigrants on the economy must be evaluated under the same rubric that citizens of this country are evaluated under: consumer spending. Although, immigrants spend less than native born consumers, they contribute to the local economy through spending on necessities, a tortilla salesman mentioned in “Shadowed Lives,” by Leo Chavez, who sold more tortillas to unauthorized workers than to all of his other restaurants combined comes to mind, and through creating new opportunities for Americans to spend. The CBO report cites the creation of new opportunities for American women because of low-cost child-care from immigrant woman. A higher educated American woman in the workforce will pay higher taxes and contribute more to the economy because she can afford her childcare. The report goes on, “Likewise, the additional immigrants may induce greater demand because their presence either generates more demand for the product or attracts more capital”

While immigrants might create a drain on local economies in the form of services for their children, overall they contribute to the economy in the form of job production and goods produced. The public outcry over the loss of jobs is based upon a misconception that has been prevalent in this country almost since its founding.

There is no way to truly isolate the effects of immigration upon our economy. Our country functions under an economic system that literally relies upon the cheap labor provided by immigrants. Without that labor, much of our economic growth would be slowed. Another point, that must be made, is the fact the children born to immigrants generally reach higher education levels than their parents, thus over an immigrant’s lifetime their family contribution to the economy will be positive because of higher pay and higher tax contributions by their succeeding generations. While it is of great concern to state officials that immigrant children are causing a drain on resources, over the long-term, those same children will contribute to the overall economy of the states as adults.

The negative effects of immigrants on our national revenue are nonexistent. Studies show that the income and revenue generated far outweigh the costs. The negative effects on the Colorado economy are in the form of services rendered mostly to children, which cannot be addressed through fiscal policy. Instead those issues can only be addressed through immigration reform in the form of better border security. Even so, if immigration reform includes a guest worker program there is nothing that can stop immigrants from having children in the country, thus the problem cannot truly be solved in regards to services. Instead, legalization and a better work program will allow immigrants to pay more in taxes and also allow them to come out of the shadows to purchase more goods without fear of deportation.

(I have sources available to support all of my claims if anyone is interested.)

Just as a side note: It is not possible for a person to be “illegal.” It is possible for a person to commit an illegal or criminal act. Immigrating to the United States without permission is not a felony offense. When we refer to people as “illegals” it is easy to dehumanize them and not treat their existence with the same respect that we treat others. Likewise, “illegal aliens” results in the same problem. A better term might be “unauthorized.”

cockswain's avatar

I completely agree with the idea that economic growth is vitally important, and you provide a very sound argument supporting that “illegals” on the whole mainly stimulate that growth. My question for you is how do you recommend we reform our laws to reflect this? Our visa program is slow and doesn’t seem to allow the correct flow of supply of labor to meet demand; hence the illegal vs legal immigration. Should we open the border completely? Further, the root of the problem to me seems that conditions in Mexico are such that the labor market is in such a horrible state as to promote emigration. Do you have any ideas about how US policy could improve that?

malevolentbutticklish's avatar

@cockswain: Mexico has abused and ignored our immigration law. We should close our boarder almost entirely in response. There is plenty of first rate labor available from Asia.

cockswain's avatar

@malevolentbutticklish Why do you feel Asians are superior to Mexicans?

malevolentbutticklish's avatar

@cockswain: Please compare second generation Asians to second generation Mexicans. What percent of second generation Asians go on to be Doctors compared to second generation Mexicans? What percent of Asians come here to steal cars compared to Mexicans? How many Asians have run across the boarder with swine flue or other diseases? I am sure someone will say this is racist but it is the facts. We need to reward the good and toss out the bad.

jaytkay's avatar

I’m shocked, shocked, to find a supposed concern for rule of law is just a thin veneer for racial hatred.

cockswain's avatar

@malevolentbutticklish It sounds terribly racist. Do you have sources of facts to support such allegations? Compared to @jealoustome and others, your analysis is very simplistic for this discussion. If you can’t back up your statements, don’t bother posting to this question any longer.

malevolentbutticklish's avatar

@jaytkay: This is a serious allegation. Back up your posting that this is racial hatred rather than an appreciation for true differences between race.

malevolentbutticklish's avatar

@cockswain: This is a serious allegation. Back up your posting that this is racist rather than an appreciation for true differences between race.

malevolentbutticklish's avatar

@jaytkay: All those illegal Mexicans… they are CRIMINALS. People forget that.

jaytkay's avatar

Why do they always resort to ALL CAPITAL LETTERS?

malevolentbutticklish's avatar

There are 106,350,434 Mexicans in Mexico and 20,000,000+ in the USA as a result of illegal activity. This makes as much as 20% of Mexicans criminals without even needing further examination.

cockswain's avatar

@jaytkay because racists are MORONS

malevolentbutticklish's avatar

@jaytkay: “The illegals are doing work here that alot of us would NOT want to do. So I say legalize them, give them equal opportunities, then tax them.”—mrrich724 <== are you calling mrrich724 a moron? Why did you not call mrrich724 a moron before now? I believe my judicious use of capitalization (single word) was justified and you are just trying to go off on a tangent to avoid the real issue.

cockswain's avatar

seriously, I looked at your other posts to see if you’re having an off day. You are completely nuts. Go away, don’t respond to any of my questions again. Your opinions and thoughts are worthless.

Brian1946's avatar

@malevolentbutticklish

“How many Asians have run across the boarder with swine flue or other diseases?”

I would say that no Asians have run across any US border because there isn’t any Asian country that borders the US.

malevolentbutticklish's avatar

@Brian1946: Asians have largely respected our immigration laws. This is especially true when placed side by side with Mexicans.

cockswain's avatar

Guys, seriously, please ignore him. He may respond and can only detract from what so far has been an intelligent conversation.

malevolentbutticklish's avatar

@cockswain: I am tired of your personal attacks. I give serious answers whether you like them or not. Please rejoin the on-topic conversation or leave if you like but I am here to provide my viewpoint.

Brian1946's avatar

@malevolentbutticklish

“We should close our boarder almost entirely in response.”

So closing the person that is provided with regular meals or regular meals and lodging would resolve the “problem”?

malevolentbutticklish's avatar

@Brian1946: I am not entirely sure I understand your posting but there must be some negative consequence when a person, group, or country does not obey our laws. Otherwise people will forever be guessing which laws to respect and which ones to ignore. Unfortunately life in Mexico can be very bad so it takes a lot of consequences to prevent the criminal behavior of ignoring our immigration laws.

Brian1946's avatar

@malevolentbutticklish

“I am not entirely sure I understand your posting”

Then I’ll simplify it for you: do you understand the difference between a border and a boarder?

malevolentbutticklish's avatar

@Brian1946: No problem and thank you, I will use “border”.

syz's avatar

What’s with all of the blatant racism lately? So depressing…

malevolentbutticklish's avatar

@syz: It is too bad Mexicans are not white because then they would not have your special protection of screaming “racism” to pretend 20,000,000 Mexican criminals do no wrong. If it were Americans and Russians people would have no problem seeing the truth.

syz's avatar

@malevolentbutticklish Most illegal immigrants are trying to provide a better life for themselves and their families. I dare say most of us would do the same, were we living in such poverty.

Where’s your outrage over the (by comparison) wealthy business owners and managers that knowingly hire illegal immigrants, who pay illegal rates and supply substandard housing? Employers who knowingly break the laws of their own government. Why aren’t you holding elected officials who fail to enforce immigration laws already on the books responsible?

Guess what? If those fat cats weren’t trying to get richer by buying cheap labor, there would be far fewer jobs available and the flow of people looking for work would dry up.

Look beyond your xenophobia and try to see that there is more than just one class of “criminal” here.

alamo's avatar

If the penalties for using undocumented labor were more punititive and the enforcement agencies actuallly enforced the existing laws on employers, the cost of using undocumented workers would soon dry up the demand for their labor. If a company fears the fines and damage done to their cash flow and reputation, they would be more resistant to taking the risk of hiring illegal workers. The solution is a supply side one. If there are much fewer jobs available, the incentive will be be gone to comes here to work.

I am a supporter of most of what Bush did(I know, not a popular opinion around here), but a fence around the US at the entire Mexican border is assanine. Have they not heard of the wall in Berlin. How did that work out?

cockswain's avatar

@alamo How would reducing the supply of jobs be good for the US economy? For an in-depth analysis, I suggest you fully read what @jealoustome wrote. They don’t actually provide a drag on our economy.

augustlan's avatar

Great question, and mostly great answers!

mattbrowne's avatar

Help change Mexico so people want to stay.

wilma's avatar

@syz said “Where’s your outrage over the (by comparison) wealthy business owners and managers that knowingly hire illegal immigrants, who pay illegal rates and supply substandard housing? Employers who knowingly break the laws of their own government.”
Exactly, Why have the laws if you aren’t going to enforce them. Employers who knowingly hire illegal immigrants should be punished.

malevolentbutticklish's avatar

@wilma: There is one very real reason to go after illegal immigrants first as oppose to employers. Employers are citizens and illegal immigrants are not. You want to hassle our citizens but leave our non-citizens alone? Only citizens deserve a crack-down but non-citizens get a pass? We owe it to our citizens to crack down on them only AFTER we have cracked down on our non-citizens.

cockswain's avatar

@mattbrowne I agree with that. Do you have any ideas about what we could do? Repeal NAFTA? Politically and economically it would be a less than ideal time to provide them with US govt subsidies, but there isn’t much of an excuse for a country with one of the highest standards of living in the world to basically ignore the poverty of our neighbor. To me, it seems we need to reform our immigration laws to prevent people from feeling they need to sneak over here, as well as provide Mexicans with incentives to stay at home as well. They are a poor country compared to us, and can use help.

malevolentbutticklish's avatar

@mattbrowne: Are you happy with the Iraq-modification efforts?

jealoustome's avatar

Sorry for another long answer. You might guess that I am passionate about this topic.

@cockswain I completely agree with the idea that economic growth is vitally important, and you provide a very sound argument supporting that “illegals” on the whole mainly stimulate that growth. My question for you is how do you recommend we reform our laws to reflect this?

I don’t know that we can change our laws to change misconceptions. I just wanted to blow up a couple of those misconceptions. From our country’s inception, the dominant culture has chosen to persecute those who come from ethnic groups thought to be inferior and has clung to false information to justify irrational statements. If you look back through newspaper articles throughout our history, you’ll find “they take our jobs” type articles referring to all sorts of ethnic groups. The Italians and Irish suffered terrible persecution. The “Asiatic Barred Zone” prohibited all persons from countries considered to be “of the Orient” from entering the country. The same, stereotypical descriptions applied to Mexicans now can be found written in California newspapers in the early 1900’s referring to the Chinese. All I’m saying is, this is nothing new. There will always be a group that the dominant culture chooses to link to internal strife.

Should we open the border completely? Further, the root of the problem to me seems that conditions in Mexico are such that the labor market is in such a horrible state as to promote emigration. Do you have any ideas about how US policy could improve that?

The only viable way to reform immigration that makes sense, in my personal opinion, is to create a modern day Bracero program. The old program was fraught with corruption and incredible human rights violations (some described it as “legalized slavery,”) but a new program could have more regulation and oversight. And, since the 1960’s, when the program ended, thousands of human rights related NGO’s and non-profits have sprung up. Many more eyes would be watching the pot. In my imaginary modern Bracero program, a two-way street is opened between Mexico and the United States. Workers from Mexico are paid a living wage and work a contract for a set amount of time, then return home for a set amount of time. Meanwhile, recent college grads from the U.S. work in Mexico (developing infrastructure, teaching in schools, helping to develop policy) for a set amount of time in exchange for loan forgiveness and incredible resume material.

And, this is the most out-of-the-box part of my plan: it’s a set person for person trade ratio. For every two or three people that come for the modern Bracero program, one person goes to Mexico (even if they are not part of the college program, perhaps they are setting up a business, working for another non-profit.) The reason I suggest this wild and crazy idea is this: Creating a person to person trade ratio will force the Mexican government to begin to think of opportunities to develop in their country and to advertise those opportunities to students in the U.S. Currently, the Mexican government promotes illegal immigration to the U.S. because it is one of the largest sources of revenue in Mexico. There needs to be an incentive for them to do otherwise. I don’t think Mexico should become our fifty-first state, but I do believe that they should no longer be treated as an unwanted stepchild. It makes no sense to continue to do so. I could go on and on about the benefits of allying ourselves with Mexico and building their economy sustainably (not just with handouts,) but that would require me to write so, so much more. I do think we must repeal NAFTA and put a more equitable program in place. Much of the current problem can be tied to the signing of NAFTA.

mattbrowne's avatar

@cockswain – Turn NAFTA into an EU-style model which includes money transfers.

wilma's avatar

@malevolentbutticklish
No. If you would please read my first post, then you would know I wouldn’t give illegal immigrants a pass.

malevolentbutticklish's avatar

@wilma: If you don’t give them a pass then why ignore non-citizens and go after citizens instead? Shouldn’t we first make some real effort to prosecute the non-citizens?

wilma's avatar

@malevolentbutticklish I’ll repeat.
“If you would please read my first post, then you would know I wouldn’t give illegal immigrants a pass”
No pass, they go back, and if they have committed another crime, they should be prosecuted.

malevolentbutticklish's avatar

@wilma: I went back and gave it a great answer. I know your heart is in the right place but I just fail to see how deporting them is a punishment. This merely means we stop rewarding them which is not the same. Isn’t this where they would be all along if they hadn’t broken the law anyway? Your stance still seems like punishing citizens and not punishing non-citizens. Something must happen to them worse than if they had stayed in Mexico for it to be a punishment.

Wilma Plan:
Citizen Who Breaks Law = $10,000 Fine
Illegal Who Breaks Law = $10,000 Payout and free ride home

The_Stranger's avatar

@malevolentbutticklish I’ll try to say this as best as I can, with my primitive English.
I am an Illegal Immigrant, I’ve been living in US for 3 years and 6 months. I’ll give you another point of view, I am not stupid, I don’t think that I can make you change you way of see the things, its difficult to understand others when we have never been in their positions.
First.
I came from Guatemala, Central America. Every week, Central American guard coast get at least one Ship loaded with illegal immigrants from Asia. The Reason is simple is more easy to fool our Guard Coast than US, so they get ground in CA or Mexico and then they cross the border like any other Hispanic.
Second.
Have you ever see a Asian guy doing Housekeeping or working at the fields, or lets say fast food restaurants? Happens but no very often.
The reason its not because asian are more intelligent than a Hispanic, a muche better RACE, nop… Bring a Illegal immigrant from Asia requires a lot of money; for example a Mexican pay about $1800 to $2500 to cross the border, I paid $4800 because Mexico its a Hell if you a are an immigrant so the average for asian its more than $12000 !!!!
yep so if somebody can pay that for a cousin, the probably are already well establish in US. the send their illegal immigrants to school and the to work and their business
Third.
What is a criminal? I mean, everybody breaks the law sooner or later. I mean everybody do an illegal u turn someday, some people drive with more than 3 beers in the head, other lie in their taxes, etc. come on! Criminal is someone who hurts another human been. I cross a border so I am in the same category of that one who kill and rape a woman? Jeezz
Empathy. That’s whats this world lacks more.

cockswain's avatar

@The_Stranger I think your answer is wonderful. Very insightful.

wilma's avatar

I understood your writing very well @The_Stranger .
I don’t agree with you that you should be here illegally. I hope that you will get yourself legal status so that you can stay.

The_Stranger's avatar

@wilma I would like to be here legally, believe me. But its very difficult to get a legal status right now. Sometimes its very embarrassing, I don’t like to lie to my employers, because sooner or later they find out and I have to look for another job. After all, I respect the law as much as I can, besides to be illegally, I respect the law just like you, I paid taxes just like you, I get money back from the IRS with my “Special” number just like you, I have a bank a count just like you And… I am what its more important for this system… A Consumer. I buy, and buy and buy, Electronics, gasoline, clothes, food, Services, etc. Just like you. The decisions that the Federal and State government takes affect me too, They spend my taxes just like your taxes, The real difference> I don’t have a valid driver license in my pocket!
Even after all this similarities between citizens and me, I have to tolerate the discrimination of some people that judge me. I understand them, I am not a victim. I’ll take responsibility of my actions when the time will come. Unfortunately, I cannot explain to every person that we are humans, that papers, status, borders, even money.. all this things were created for humans and they are not necessarily right. The problem its not about color skin or race, its about ignorance, and, a Ignorant person its not a BAD person, Its just a person without the knowledge to understand another. I have my reasons to be here. I mean, I risked my life to get here! I would like to say that I believe that it will be Immigration Reform, but…I have my doubts, I’ve seen so much hate and injustice.

gitana62's avatar

There are some facts that are not taken in to account in almost any immigration discussion :

America was colonized by the Spanish before other europeans came.

The border shifted 150 years ago, and many spanish speaking natives stayed on their land.

The border enforcement issue and doccumentation are relatively recent issues.

Mexico’s economy is much healthier than it was several years ago, as are its health care and social programs.

There is a great difference in continental migration as compared to international . I do not believe Mexican immigration can be compared to asian, european or south american, it is not the same, because we share a continental landmass.

I agree that people who comitt crimes are criminals, but people who do not have doccuments and are hard working citizens can make community contributions and should be allowed to do so. It is important to make distinctions in peoples’ intent. I know of individuals who have lived undoccumented for long periods and been very decent citizens. Many entered the US years ago looking for better opportunities and now have american born children whom they stay to support and who have not seen their families for years.

My situation is the reverse, I am a foreigner married to a Mexican citizen, living in Mexico. I have experienced the same situation – not always having the luxury of being able to travel with my family because of visa requirements.

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