Which is the proper sentence form, to put "ever" before "have" or "have" before "ever"?

The latter seems to have a better flow. But they both seem interchangeable.

.than I would have ever expected….

Thank you!

Wait – isn’t it neither? Wouldn’t it be “ever would have expected”?

“would have expected” is the full conjugated verb phrase right? Isn’t introducing the “ever” in any part of that kind of like splitting the infinitive?

(I’m talking about proper, not colloquially acceptable grammar, of course).

That even sounds better too! Better than I ever would have expected.

It’s better cause I’m right, yo. (Another fine example of proper spelling and grammar from me, this post is).

And modest too! Thanks @iamthemob

My cake turned out better than I expected.

I’m with @jaytkay… what’s the purpose of using the word “ever”? It adds nothing.

If you’re being paid by the word, well, I suppose that’s one thing… [If one’s income is dependent upon column-inches or the use of excessive verbiage, then perhaps it is desirable to overuse meaningless words in order to increase that income. Frankly, I don’t see the point.]

@CyanoticWasp : it’s emphatic.

@iamthemob – it’s not a grammar question, it’s a syntax question.

@the100thmonkey

Sure, if you want to make a syntax choice that violates the rules of grammar.

So is “The cake turned out much better than I expected.”
“I’m amazed at how well the cake turned out.”
“The cake! The cake! Look at this fucking amazing cake!”

“Wow! Ever a cake have you such an amazing seen?”

@iamthemob – @CyanoticWasp‘s post illustrates exactly the point – there is no issue with the morphology of the third sentence, the word order (syntax!) is screwy.

I would suggest that both of @RealEyesRealizeRealLies’ sentences are perfectly grammatically acceptable – they’re both easy to parse without raising any eyebrows (what’s “proper grammar” when it’s at home anyway? Do you mean prescriptive grammar?), but that the most appropriate position of the adverb “ever” is unclear.

@CyanoticWasp – it’s impossible to determine whether or not the example sentence here is appropriate, or whether less wordy alternatives are more suitable without examining the context of the utterance, no?

I believe you may be on to something here @the100thmonkey. Syntax may in fact trump grammar. The denotation of “ever” may be necessary when considering the speakers previous perspective compared to the speakers current acknowledgment.

@the100thmonkey amen. I’m a big fan of context.

@the100thmonkey

That’s exactly what I meant. Because the question was phrased as “proper sentence form” I went with “proper (prescriptive)” rules as opposed to “colloquial (descriptive)” ones. That’s why I don’t think that the question is clearly about syntax rather than grammar.

I myself don’t really see the need for proper grammar in most cases, as long as meaning is conveyed, and am in the “to boldly go” as opposed to “to go boldly” camp, as it just sounds better. And that is why I made the distinction initially.

I don’t think you need to include ‘ever’ at all

now, about that cake

No icing, ever?

Icing is ever good!