They’re not afraid of her. They love her—not for her policy positions of course, but for the opportunities she presents them with. For one, she beat someone they were genuinely concerned with (Joseph Crowley, who probably would have taken over as Speaker of the House, isn’t nearly as convenient of a target as Nancy Pelosi). Second, all of the attention she has been getting paves the way for them to characterize her as the face of the entire Democratic Party (despite the fact that she only represents its leftmost wing). That’s a lot of value to get out of a district that was inevitably going to elect a Democrat. In short: they don’t bash her because they’re afraid of her; they bash her because doing so rallies their base. And right now, the Republicans are a base-focused party.

She’s NOT a seasoned politician & she appears to mean & do what she says she’s going to!!! She’s NOT a loose cannon & she came out of nowhere & blindsided the Reps when she burst out onto the scene. She seems to be well educated & speaks well. She’s slow to anger & does NOT react like any other politician. Most of all she’s a light brown female & NOT a white male who is a member of the good old boy’s club!!!

@SavoirFaire Spot on

I dont hate her at all, I’m watching with interest. Women in politics still have a lot to prove and I’m looking for a viable female future President.

It’s simple, because she’s anti-establishment and appeals to younger voters.

They like targeting strong woman Democrats.

She is an American politician who isn’t a billionaire. Now that isn’t natural. No wonder they are scared.

The right is scared of her because there’s a chance voters might think she’s right.

Shit went down, that’s for sure.

Ocasio-Cortez definitely seems to be the Right’s new punching bag, but to be fair, she’s given some pretty ditsy answers to questions that make her seem naive and ill-prepared for politics. But I’ll let her actions speak.

Republicans love to beat up women. They think they are weak.

All politics and media heap on once they find a target has proven effective for attention and ratings whether justified or not.

I also responded that universal healthcare is payed through tax dollars, just like we do for the military.

The conservatives on my friend’s list (all white males, BTW) are saying she is dumber than a box of rocks. Is this true? What is your take on her?

She is dumb. Not a debate. @flutherother Then yeah, mod all the comments against Trump and conservatives please. No need to be a hypocrit here.

Yeah totally wrong, she wants to save the planet for future generations, and keep children safe and healthy good god the horrors.

Apparently when asked how to pay for Medicare for All, she said “just pay for it”. It’s things like that that make people think she doesn’t know what she’s talking about.

I’m listening…..

Why are people forgetting the health care study the koch Brothers had done about universal health care?
It found that the USA would save 2 trillion dollars by using it over what the states have now, that is what she meant by just pay for it.

Oh, @SergeantQueen, just curious here, what qualifies you to call her “dumb”? You are not even out of high school, do you aspire to even match her academic qualifications? Do at least look at her wiki page before making such a characterization.
Should I link or do you know how to do that?

@SergeantQueen is perfectly entitled to her opinion, regardless of her age. But can you explain why you think she’s dumb @SergeantQueen?

Yeah, yeah, “entitled to her opinion” blah blah blah. If she expects that opinion to be even remotely respected, she should back it up. You, yourself, @Dutchess_III, often ask for links.

That is what I am waiting for her to do. Maybe that part went over your head.

The premise presumes there is fear. I don’t see it. If anything, there might be positive anticipation of teasing a rookie who is new to the major league.

Truth is, you could make the argument that plenty of establishment Democrats fear her more than right wing Republicans.

She is part of the Justice Democrats movement and they are disdainful of centrist Dems. They can screw up the ambitions of plenty of Democrats in plenty of primaries to come.

She’s female. She’s Hispanic. What’s not to fear?

^^
No
She’s female, she’s Hispanic. What IS to fear?

She represents a constituency that inevitably emerges as the middle class disappears. And the good news is, they run for office rather than burn alive the aristocracy and the political class.
Just one more chapter in the great history of the US.
I enjoy this shit.

Just a reminder here: comments that respond to moderated comments are also removed, regardless of whether or not they are themselves flame bait or personal attacks. That’s why more than just the actual attacks were removed.

I personally think she is a puppet or an idiot…I can’t quite figure out which. Either way, she represents a lot that is wrong with our country. She has all sorts of great talking points, but when asked about the details, she falls by the wayside. She can’t answer simple, direct questions. She dodges, dips, dives and dodges. She has no actual answers. So she is nothing but a mouthpiece that can whip up the left with dreams of socialism, but can’t actually answer how to pay for her dreams.

@SavoirFaire Or what I already said above.

Sorta like your guy, huh @seawulf575 ??

@SQUEEKY2 That is honestly how I feel about her and about Trump. Good at getting people excited about their pet issues, not good at details. That’s not to say for sure that Ocasio Cortez would be that way if she were in higher office, but it doesn’t look good right now.

Assome said about Trump, can we give her a chance? She’s a fledgling Congress person, give her – and the many other newbies – time.

Again, universal healthcare will be payed with our TAXES, just like the MILITARY is. And it’ll save us money. A republican research council actually did that research, universal healthcare saves us 2 trillion. Also, the military is triple the size that it needs to be. Holy flying fuck it’s not that hard to understand.

@SQUEEKY2 Unfortunately for your argument, I don’t have “a guy”. I have voiced my opinions on Trump and his shortfalls numerous times. I have also voiced my opinions about other political figures and their shortfalls many times. But trying to compare Trump to Ocasio-Cortez? Please. He is crude and unpolished, but is pushing for the changes he talked about and is showing benefits for the whole country. Unemployment is down, taxes are down, and regulations are down. Congress passed a huge budget and Trump has gone about trying to cut the spending in many areas of government, even though there is money in their budget. Ocasio-Cortez has spouted all sorts of grand socialistic ideas, but has yet to actually describe how to pay for her plans. That is the recipe for disaster. On the good side, she is so far to the left she is pissing off everyone…Dems, Repubs and Indies. She will be a flash in the pan.

Ocasio-Cortez is a vocal and articulate proponent of a progressive platform. I like the turn of phrase Green New Deal. She female is and Latino and the youngest person ever elected to the House. Maybe the Republicans feel they can take advantage of her youth and inexperience. So far she has not taken the bait. @seawulf575 – Reference for statements showing she is a puppet or idiot?

@seawulf575

She’s described numerous times on how she plans to pay for universal healthcare. You just won’t listen. Just like how you’ve failed to read my previous comment and respond.

@rockfan sure, she said we’d pay for it with taxes. Unfortunately, the cost is FAR larger than what she was saying it would be. AND, when confronted with that fact, she waffled away. Maybe you need to stop hearing what you want to hear and listen to what is actually being said.

How much larger? Can you link me some sources

Well, let’s start with what she touts as the cost:

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2018/07/27/daily_show_host_trevor_noah_to_alexandria_ocasio-cortez_how_will_you_pay_for_your_agenda.html

Now let’s compare to what the actual estimate of medicare for all would cost:

https://www.mercatus.org/publications/federal-fiscal-policy/costs-national-single-payer-healthcare-system

Now I have heard all the shell game comments from the left. The Mercatus publication is a Koch Bros scare tactic, that it actually shows we will pay less in the long run, etc, etc, etc. When you go to the actual author of the report, he is independent and is not beholden to any wealthy donors. He also states in the report and in follow up interviews to these idiotic interpretations from the left that the $32T is a very conservative estimate. It makes some gross assumptions about being able to bring down healthcare and pharmaceutical costs which is not a done deal at all. Without those changes, the actual cost is much, much higher than the $32T. And nowhere does Ocasio-Cortez mention that to meet the initial costs of going to medicare-for-all, income taxes would have to double for every man, woman, and family in this country. Guess that is a pretty bad talking point so I’m not surprised by the deception. It is a lot easier to try saying that “if corporations and the “wealthy” would just pay their fair share….” because then you can deflect to some misty “them” instead of actually questioning the facts.

How come other industrialized nations have had universal health care for years and it hasn’t crippled them??^^
And she is right when talking with Noah make the rich pay their fair share, and the same with corporations and you pretty well have the funds you need right there.
But you conservatives get your tits all in a wringer and scream these fucking low life’s want want free, you know that’s not true but it sounds good on your soap box.
THEY want affordable, big difference,one that doesn’t end their benefits for a pre existing condition,one that doesn’t make them face financial ruin if needing major medical help.
What the hell is wrong with that?
Do you really secretly work for the bloated health insurance providers?
I can see them getting all bent out of shape over universal heath care but that is it..

Loving @SQUEEKY2!

@SQUEEKY2 I think the issue is that you miss is that we are not starting at the same place as, say, Canada. US citizens love to go to Canada to get their prescriptions filled because the cost of meds are cheaper there. The big pharma companies charge us more because they feel we will pay it, I guess. And they have bought enough congressmen to make it so is my guess as well. Yet one more reason for term limits! This is just one point about cost that is already high and the “medicare-for-all” only has a murky “plan” to try reeling in costs…no actual solid goals. And so, the cost of moving to a socialized medicine in this country costs big bucks. More than can easily be covered by anything near our current tax rates. What I find interesting is that you didn’t really dispute the costs and you really offered no actual suggestions for cutting the costs, you just put in a plug for socialized medicine. But there are many parts of socialized healthcare that liberals never really want to talk about. Coverage for one. Look at GB. Yes, they have socialized healthcare, but it only covers the basics. Most people end up buying insurance to cover all the stuff the government healthcare won’t. Also, when you create socialized medicine, you give control of your decisions to the government as well. Remember Alfie Evans in the UK? Sick child, dying probably. The government decided when to pull the breathing tubes from the child. When the child continued breathing on his own, the government stepped in and took all medical decision making from the family. Italy offered to fly the child and family to their country for an experimental treatment that may or may not have worked, but was worth a chance. All this was on Italy’s dime. Yet the government refused to allow it and told the parents they would not be allowed to leave the country. Eventually the child died. How is that compassion? How does that even make any sense? It doesn’t.
I have experienced socialized medicine in this country. I was in the navy and was subjected to their medical coverage. That is 100% government controlled healthcare. It was horrible. It doesn’t get better in many cases for veterans. Look at all the news stories about how the VA has operated. Veterans dying while waiting for services, getting sub-standard treatments, and more are not as unusual as you might think. That is socialized medicine. And the plans by fools like Ocasio-Cortez and Bernie Sanders never really address the full story. Would there be a mass exodus of doctors? Possibly. Would the costs of treatments go down? They don’t talk about that….they hope so but I don’t like “hope” as a strategy. Would the government create whole departments that did nothing except determine what benefits are actually covered? Probably, but they don’t talk about that. I suggest that if you truly think socialized medicine is a great thing and that you want to be an elected official that pushes it, you should be willing to talk about ALL the issues and not dodge a single one. You shouldn’t be afraid of being completely transparent in your discussions, because it is a great thing, right?

Keep pushing the conservative scare tactics, and keep fighting it till the end.
So I guess people in your country that can’t afford your over priced insurance and are not covered by their work place can just go die? How very conservative of you but keep those tax cuts for the wealthy coming,and keep gutting protection for the environment.
What gets me is you keep claiming the left is all about hate.
But the poor and lower classes can just die before you will admit universal health care isn’t a bad thing.
Yeah you are just peace and love.

@seawulf575 why are the costs of meds cheaper in Canada?

@seawulf575 Surely imperfect healthcare is better than no healthcare at all? I know I wouldn’t swap the National Health Service we have in the UK for the uncaring and money driven system in the United States. Some people here take out private health insurance and they are entitled to do that if they have the money but most don’t. You can get a hip replacement operation on the NHS – going private just means you can get it done more quickly.

The Alfie Evans case is not typical. The unfortunate child had a degenerative brain condition that led to catastrophic degradation of his brain tissue. It was medical professionals who took the decision to withdraw life support because further treatment was futile. The government had no say in the matter and it was the courts that made the ultimate decision. Whatever system of healthcare you favour it will be confronted with cases like this at times

@Dutchess_III because the pharma companies sell it cheaper up there. They only charge a fraction what they charge in the US. They charge less because they know they can make up the difference by charging more in the US. That would need to be addressed by our government in a socialized medicine situation. Can you picture the elected reps that are on the take from Big Pharma actually standing up to them? No, I can’t either.

I thought you were against universal health care in the US?

@flutherother I think you are missing a big piece of the Alfie issue. Yes, it was a tragic thing and no, there may not have been anything that could have been done. But yes, the government did step in. They refused to try an experimental solution and denied the family the right to take the child to Italy. That was the government’s action. They basically said “We’ve done as much as we can and you’re just going to have to accept your child’s death.
We will not support any other options, regardless of who is paying for them.” Any of the court orders are enforced by the government. The courts are part of the government. In fact, the entire row was basically the government stepping in to take control of the child and deciding his fate.

Usually parents accept medical advice but if they dispute it the courts will get involved as the law doesn’t consider either doctors or parents to be automatically right. That’s why, when an agreement cannot be reached, it comes down to the courts to make the final decision based on the evidence available.

I was in the hospital last year for LESS than 24 hours. I was hooked up to an IV due to dehydration & slept for close to 8 hours without need for medical assistance of a nurse & NO doctor ever checked in on me. I had one lousy meal that my dogs wouldn’t touch. My bill on exit was $11,000. I seriously doubt that my taxes will go up $11,000 to help in covering universal healthcare. Doctors fight it because they will have to take a cut in pay. Big pharma HATES it because the won’t be able to charge outrageous prices for the meds they peddle. The Congress & Senate rebuke it because they will lose the funds they receive from big pharma!!!

I don’t trust most doctors & I don’t see that changing even with universal healthcare. Free or NOT won’t change mt doctor visiting habits!!! Still, I have enough sense to know that there will come a time when they are IMPORTANT to my life & $11,000 won’t begin to touch my bill!!!

@LadyMarissa You are making a huge jump that doctors will have to take a pay cut or that big pharma will suddenly stop charging so much. Think about it. If the government suddenly says that doctors can only charge a set value, there will be a mass exodus from the medical profession. And if government tries stepping in to set prices for pharmaceuticals, you can bet there would be outrage at the government taking over private industry. Not to mention you are going on the idealistic but naive belief that our corrupt elected officials will actually stand up to big pharma.

Those were the very same scare tactics the right used here in Canada when we went universal health care all those years ago.
And shock there was no mad exodus of Doctors, and where would they go?
To another country with universal health care?
And these drug companies screw you guys so much because they have a monopoly,let other drug companies in and compete then the price will go down.
Universal health care is far from perfect, but what the states have now is even further.
Now this is for every country out there ,every citizen regardless of wealth,class,race, or religion has a RIGHT to affordable health care.

My bet is it wasn’t $11,000. That is the amount on the bill to make you scared to death and feel you are so thankful for your insurance.

Look at your EOB. Probably it was more like $2500 for your visit.

Oh, and if you were suing someone for your hospital bill, like if it was the result of an accident and someone insurance was supposed to cover it, then you can often sure did treble of the $11k ($33k) even if only $2500 was paid in the end. It’s all a racket.

@seawulf575 Open your eyes…it has already begun to happen & there is NO mass exodus…actually the doctors have jumped on board!!! Here, hospitals are buying out doctors offices daily. The doctor stays & is put on salary (yes, a greatly reduced salary). In exchange, they NO longer have to worry about being sued & the related expense for the insurance that protects them nor do they have to pay the office staff. As a matter of fact, there are NO privately owned doctors offices where I live. The hospitals have taken over the doctors offices & they’re providing ALL the emergency clinics. It’s NOT that big of a leap for the hospitals to turn ALL these over to the government (or run them for the government) when the appropriate time comes!!!

You admit that drugs cost less in Canada due to their universal healthcare; so, WHY would it be any different IF we switch over to universal healthcare??? No, the drug companies won’t like it, but the government will NO longer care!!!

@LadyMarissa open your eyes. Remember Obamacare? Remember all the people that lost their doctors because they didn’t want to take part in that scam? Now picture that on a grander scale.
I find it funny that you bring up not being sued. When I was in the service, there was a case of a doctor showing up to deliver a baby. There were complications with the pregnancy, but the biggest complication with the delivery was that the doctor was drunk on his ass. The baby died. And you are right…he couldn’t be sued. The parents had absolutely no recourse for what was gross negligence that cost them their baby. But I guess that is something that appeals to you, so long as you get your socialist dream.

@seawulf575 You listen to too much FAKE NEWS!!! We had plenty of doctors here as Obamacare did NOT affect the doctors who had already sold their practices to the hospitals. It was right wing fear mongering that wanted us to believe that we would lose our healthcare!!! I, for one, don’t scare that easily!!!

You also missed the point. Doctors are more than willing to take a huge reduction in pay when it’s grouped with a huge reduction in expenses. They DON’T care what happens to us as long as they get paid.

What does your drunk ass doctor have to do with this conversation??? Does NOT change a thing. You really should become a spin doctor for the Republican party…you do it so well!!! You don’t scare me anymore than they do!!!

I was in the hospital for 2 weeks. It was a major thing. The bill was….$250,000. Some ungodly amount. Insurance paid all but $1,900.
Yeah. $5 for a Diet Coke and shit like that.
I had a brace made for my arm last year. It was literally $4 worth of plastic and velcro, and about 15 minutes worth of time, on the part of a tech who was already getting paid just for being there.
The bill was $600. Insurance paid $0. I wish Obamacare had been allowed to pass a law outlawing that kind of scalping.
’
@LadyMarissa “Obamacare” is a set of laws, not a type of health insurance. It’s the Affordable Care Act.

@LadyMarissa you only wish it were fake news. Many people lost their doctors to Obamacare. It was one of the big lies Obama told. But the doctors didn’t have to accept substandard pay. If you suddenly demand they accept all patients and are paid peanuts, you can bet they will not be practicing. No reason to. That isn’t right wing or left wing…that is reality. Maybe you should sample reality some time.
You made a weird statement about doctors not caring what happens to us as long as they are paid, so they are willing to take huge pay cuts as long as expenses are cut proportionally. First off…what is your proof? What is your data to back that weird statement? Secondly, where in the medicare-for-all plans is there ANYTHING that actually addresses cutting expenses? Here’s a clue…there isn’t anything. There is a hope that they can do that, there is a hope they can rein in costs. But no actual plan with actionable items to make it happen. So your entire argument is goofy and steeped in liberal dream potion.
The drunk ass doctor has to do with this conversation because YOU made the comment that doctors can’t be sued under a government run healthcare system. I pointed out that is entirely true since I have seen it. It isn’t pretty. Funny how you don’t want that brought up though. Well not funny…predictable. Why would a liberal actually want all the facts on the table?

So your peace and love way, is keep the old system and people that don’t get their health care benefits through their work place, and can’t afford the over priced health care insurance on their own can just die,instead of getting health care when they need it?
Is that the conservetive way?
And you have a problem when I call you scary.

@SQUEEKY2 why are liberals so scared? They have to create a series of statements and beliefs that they can then attribute to anyone they like, for the mere purpose of trying to make a point. Are you that afraid of what I said to @LadyMarissa? When did I say I wanted things to stay the same? If you go back and look (though I know you won’t…research and you don’t mix) you will find that I have often stated that we need to get into the nuts and bolts of what makes costs go up in this country. Why does Big Pharma charge so much more here than in Canada for example. If a pill can be produced and distributed for $1 a pill, and a profit can be made, why are we getting them at $10 a pill? Why is malpractice insurance so high? Why are doctors allowed to charge exorbitant fees when they do nothing? There are a thousand and one things that play into driving costs up and/or service down. We need an honest, non-partisan look at all of these and come up with ideas to minimize them without breaking the bank in the process. The issue with healthcare isn’t political, it’s greed.

@seawulf575 I’ve got to give you credit…you NEVER fail to disappoint me!!! Recently I have seen you say some things that were so intelligent that I thought you were finally growing up Now, you’re back to twisting words so you can just feel you’re right. You’re way to smart to act so stupid!!! You hate it when anybody twists your words, yet you totally destroyed what I said…
In exchange, they NO longer have to worry about being sued & the related expense for the insurance that protects them.
READ it…I NEVER said that doctors “cannot be sued”. I said they didn’t “have to be worried about being sued”. That is 2 completely different things!!! Once the hospital buys them out, it’s the HOSPITAL’s responsibility to handle the lawsuits..NOT the doctor’s!!!

I’m sorry you find my statement about doctors to be weird. The data to back it up has been MY LIFE!!! I’m entitled to have an opinion & my life has shown me that although there are many good doctors, there are also just as many doctors who do NOT care. They went to school to become a doctor because it paid more than anything else they could think of!!!

When I was growing up, doctors made house calls & sat up all night with their patients. Then they went to the next house to deliver a baby. Now, they choose when they will allow that baby to come so it is convenient for them. IF the baby dies…oh well…it wasn’t my fault. The good doctors deliver when the baby decides to come…NOT when it is convenient!!!

You keep spouting off about people who lost medical care under Obama. WHERE IS YOUR PROOF??? Fox News??? Nobody where I live lost their medical care…yet many had decent medical care for the first time!!! I did NOT vote for Obama; but NOT everything he did was wrong!!!

STOP acting like such a turd…today is Thanksgiving & I’m off to give thanks. I do NOT care whether you agree with me or not…just STOP making up shit to make yourself feel superior!!!

HAPPY THANKSGIVING EVERYBODY!!!

@LadyMarissa so why would they no longer have to worry about being sued then? You said it. True, you didn’t use the word “cannot”, but everything else about that statement says they can’t. If you no longer have to worry about something, that means it can’t happen. So please, enlighten us all. Are you trying to say that all doctors will now have to work for a hospital? Yeah, that’s a sure way to ensure they keep practicing. AND, it doesn’t mean the doctor can’t be sued. It means that now the hospital can ALSO be sued.
Your statement about doctors caring is even more strange now. Your own experience has shown doctors that don’t care as well as some that do. So if they all have a steady, guaranteed job, why do you think they will suddenly start caring more? That makes even less sense.
When I was growing up, doctors made housecalls as well. They actually took the Hippocratic Oath and felt it meant something. All that is long gone. And socializing medicine is certainly not going to make it come back. The exact opposite…doctors will care even less.
Speaking of rewriting statements, you are trying to rewrite mine. I didn’t say that people lost their medical care under Obama. I said they lost their DOCTORS. Remember the lie: “If you like your doctor, you can keep your doctor”? Yeah…that one. And yes, MANY doctors decided not to partake of Obamacare and people that had been going to one doctor for years suddenly found themselves having to find a new doctor…sometimes many miles away. I could give you examples, but really…why? You won’t believe them, probably won’t read them, and would either try to attack the source if it was something you consider right-wing or would dodge the entire issue and just never respond. Do your own homework and prove me wrong.
But you and I agree…it is Thanksgiving and is a day to be thankful for what we have.

If you care to go back ,I said the pharmacitical companies charge what they want because they have a monopoly, if they had compition they would get their costs in line.
Here is a FACT and I know you just love facts 45,000 people DIE in the USA every year because they didn’t have health insurance.
But what the hell right?They were just poor people and there are plenty more where they came from.
Affordable health care is a right,for every citizen of every country.

@SQUEEKY2 I found this interesting article from a Canadian about single-payer healthcare from 2007. I understand you will try denying it, but it is out there. Don’t hurt yourself, it is long and there are some big words in it.

https://www.city-journal.org/html/ugly-truth-about-canadian-health-care-13032.html

Here’s another that lists a couple of statistics….70,000 patients a year suffer injury from botched healthcare in Canada, 23,000 of them die. And it is all covered up.

https://nationalpost.com/health/inside-canadas-secret-world-of-medical-errors-there-is-a-lot-of-lying-theres-a-lot-of-cover-up

Forbes magazine also did a piece on the shortcomings of the Canadian system you love so well

https://www.forbes.com/sites/theapothecary/2014/06/13/if-universal-health-care-is-the-goal-dont-copy-canada/#40b04c7b78d5

So while you are spewing numbers without any actual citations to back them up, I just gave you three citations that show that wonderful healthcare system you have up there is deeply, deeply flawed. Might want to focus on your own problems, buddy, rather than trying to drag us down with you.

Yeah your just all peace and love, let the poor people die that’s the capitalism way,and who cares they won’t stop breeding.
Never said it was perfect but a lot better just having to die because one can’t afford your over bloated clause riddled health insurance.

Ahh…so dying while waiting for services or because the doctors screwed up is better than dying because of health insurance. Got it. Whatever you have to tell yourself.

Or you have to tell yourself.^^^ your careing knows no bounds, and yet you still spew the left are all about hate.
And yes even with all the out of date facts you had to dig up I still would rather have what we have the trade it for anything close to what you have.

Let it be known I am not bad mouthing your healthcare system it is top of the line, what I am bad mouthing is it seems to only for those who can afford it.
And even you the rich are entitled to everything must see that is wrong, but who am I kidding, your care for the less fortunate is about the same you have for the left they might as well just crawl off and die type thing before you admit they should have the same access to your health care system as the wealthy do;.

That’s right @SQUEEKY2. We’ve been without since June. But we have new insurance that should kick in around the end of this month.

Here is alink saying that people in your country DIE because of not having health insurance.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/johngoodman/2017/05/11/does-lack-of-health-insurance-kill/#514930bf9f86

You give me far more credit than I actually have earned. I am not rich. I am not entitled….never have been. I came from a moderately poor family and have made decisions all my life that have brought me to where I currently am. I have managed to make myself middle class at the very best. I do indeed see problems with our healthcare system. But I don’t want to swap it out for something that has been proven to be rife with problems in itself, at a cost that is outrageous. What I WOULD like to do is get to the bottom of why things cost what they do…the actual cost of healthcare….not the cost of health insurance. I would love to attack the root of the problem, not hand control of everything over to the government to decide what is best for me.

You have insurance through your employer, otherwise you couldn’t afford it @seawulf575.

If universal health insurance has so many problems, why to the residents of those countries that have it say they’d never trade it for anything else, and say how glad they are to have it? Saying it’s rife with problems is just spreading ridiculous political propaganda.

Wow. @SQUEEKY2 did you actually read that article you cited? You, my friend, are an idiot. That article just shot holes in everything you claim. Everything. It says your 45,000 number is hogwash based on bogus assumptions. It says that lack of insurance doesn’t affect the life expectancy very much at all. It was written by a guy that is promoting market based solutions to healthcare and is a staunch opponent of single-payer. Thank you for making my points for me!

@Dutchess_III I do indeed have insurance through my employer. And I am blessed for it. If I were unemployed, I could go onto medicaid, just like many, many others. Or I could do without. Funny how that is. I have very good health….no problems with blood pressure, cholesterol, blood sugar levels…I have taken good care of myself. My wife has a thyroid condition that would need medication, but that is achievable. You just stated that you have been without insurance since June. Have you died? Obviously not. Did you need emergency medical treatment in that time that you couldn’t get? Probably not. I suggest you read the link @SQUEEKY2 gave as a citation. It is very educational.

@seawulf575 If you, as an adult, can get insurance coverage through the state because you are unemployed, that suggests you live in a Democrat controlled state and they expanded medicare as part of Obamacare. Congratulations. Kansas did not.

So I guess every country that has adopted universal health care for their citizens and not gone bankrupt are just plain wrong?
The US way is the only way?
You claim it the best damn country in the world and yet If I ever set foot down there again it will be too soon.
No universal health care.
Stagnant wages for the middle class since the 1980’s.
yeah it’s just the best, oh yeah and a President that thinks the California wildfires are due to lack of raking the forest floors.
People have a right to affordable health care regardless of what you think I am done dealing with you .

We have a right to a president with an IQ >65 too.

Hey careful @seawulf575 loves the guy,maybe he should pitch in and rake the forest floor as well.

@SQUEEKY2 I’m sorry….I just can’t take you seriously. Honestly…after citing an article as proof of your asinine claim and the article 100% refutes you, you have proven you have the wit of the common earthworm. Please…stay north of the border. We won’t miss you.

AND YOU CLAIM THE LEFT IS ALL HATE,WHAT A LIE!

@seawulf575 Careful! Bragging about taking good care of yourself, and crediting that to your good health, is like spitting in the wind—watch out that spit might land back in your face. People who live very healthy lives get very sick all of the time, and a free ER visit does not help you get the chemo or radiation or expensive medicine you might need.

If you have been a responsible high earner who saves for the future you will not get Medicaid, because you will have too much money in the bank to qualify. You can get inexpensive insurance through ACA if your income is very low or nothing, even if you have a million dollars in the bank, which in my opinion also might be a problem in another way.

Being able to always get “treated” at an ER only makes sure you don’t die on that day, it does not provide you treatment for chronic conditions.

Don’t be so cocky, one day you or a loved one will be very sick (God forbid) need expensive treatment, and either you will have Democrats to thank for your affordable care, or be paying a whole lot of money. I think the Dems have a long way to go I’m tweaking healthcare costs, but I’m sure to my core republicans aren’t doing anything as a group right now to fix it. They ignore history regarding healthcare, ignore facts, they have a fantasy about competition in healthcare that has been proven not to work for the most part, unfortunately, I’d like to believe it would too, but it simply does not.

@seawulf575 Exactly as @JLeslie said. Good health can be fleeting. I had been healthy all my life with only a thyroid issue. Last year I got so sick that I almost died. It came out of no where. And I had insurance through my company, but I still had a lot of out of pocket expenses. It wiped out my savings. I’ve got my health back now, but it took the better part of a year.

Living a healthy life isn’t going to stop you from getting into a terrible car accident or some other unforeseeable event.
Rick had a nephew who was only 42,: in perfect health. Never drank, never smoked, and he was a real Christian. He was a youth minister. He was out jogging one morning and just dropped dead from a heart attack.

Notice how Republican pockets are never empty when it comes to tax cuts that will benefit mostly the wealthy, or writing blank checks to the military, but GASP affordable health care for all who is going to pay for that??NOTME!
Then claim the left is all hate ,they the right wing extremists are the part for the poor and middle class.
Their leaders actions,their actions prove they care nothing for the little guy.
But hey there are still plenty of minimum wage jobs so everything most be roses right?

As far as the original question goes, Ocasio-Cortez doesn’t take corporate money unlike most of the Democratic party. Corporate Dems are so hamstrung by the hypocrisy of their position that the only arguments they can throw at Republicans are PC outrage and appeals to political correctness—which only helps out Republicans.

The deep-cutting economic arguments like fighting for a living wage, slashing drug prices, fighting corruption on Wall Street, eliminating private prisons, legalizing marijuana, ending wars for profit, making public universities affordable (or even tuition free) etc. will resonate with voters on the right and can only be made by people like Ocasio-Cortez who aren’t owned by fossil fuel, big pharma, Wall Street, etc. Corporate schils like Pelosi, Schumer, Cory Booker, Kamala Harris etc. can’t credibly push those arguments without being inauthentic (like Hillary—remember the “Public position and private position” statement she made to the bankers?). That is why the right (and the “faux left”) fear her.

@SQUEEKY Wrong. Many Reps, myself included, are not rich but many do believe that working hard and saving up is a personal responsibility. If half the people having baby after baby just for a check werent allowed to do so, we can take care of the truly needy.

Next someone will post theres little fraud, which is a liberal lie. People who live together without marriage to get food stamps, free insurance. It happens a lot.

@KNOWITALL “Next someone will post theres little fraud, which is a liberal lie. People who live together without marriage to get food stamps, free insurance. It happens a lot.”

It may be common (I’d need to see actual data), but even if it is, it’s for RELATIVELY small amounts of money. Compare that dollar amount in total to the corporate tax break that Trump and Republicans gave to their buddies or to the ~$70B increase in military budget. Furthermore, do you really think people engage in those behaviors because they want to? Do you really think if those people had hundreds of thousands in the bank they would still behave that way? Or could, perhaps these examples be symptoms of much bigger problems like stagnant wages, lack of opportunity, school-to-prison pipelines, education systems based on property values, failed abstinence-only sex ed programs, etc.

I’d love to see welfare spending decrease. The best way would be to increase the minimum wage to a living wage so full-time employees won’t have to be subsidized by the taxpayer while working for some of the largest, most profitable companies in the history of mankind. Also passing single-payer Medicare-for-all would free up millions of Americans to start small businesses and live the American dream without fear of going bankrupt from an unexpected illness.

It’s shameful how Republicans love to talk about the importance of personal responsibility while excusing away corporate welfare and all of the costs from negative externalities onto the public. They’re the first to excuse away the bad behavior of CEOs and even leap to the defense of child molesters, rapists, sexual assailants, and dirty cops who shoot first and apologize later. They love to help rig the game against people without opportunities by supporting policies that create structural poverty and drastically impede upward mobility. Then they’re the first to point fingers and blame at all of the people who were unable to overcome the obstacles that they created.

Trump is the epitome of this behavior. You have a guy born into wealth who filed bankruptcy 6 fucking times. Think about how many normal, hardworking Americans were fucked over by that. He was bailed out financially by his father and would be worth more today if he’d just taken his inheritance and bought stock in an index fund like the S&P 500 e.g. VFINX. So where’s the personal responsibility there? Why is it that personal responsibility only applies to those making under 500k?

@gorillapaws You lost me at child molesters.

@KNOWITALL See Roy Moore.

@KNOWITALL Wow. Just wow. The judgemental, hateful ignorance is really hard to listen to, especially coming from you.

Most people I know value hard work and saving for themselves.
The few people I know personally (including myself) that have accepted cash assistance in the past did so only temporarily, and it wasn’t nearly enough to actually support a family on. I had 4 kids to support and I got $530 one month….and they took the $150 child support, that their father was finally paying, for that month from me. What was my net? Do the math.

I find it odd that you personally know people who multiply like rabbits so they can get rich. Can you give me a for example of one of those people? Can you describe their circumstances and what kind of place they live in, what kind of car they drive?

The right is so scared of her, because she knows how the majority of working class people survive paycheck to paycheque, The right think no body has to do that because they are so out of touch with the working mddle class.
And even three quarters of the left are the same.

@KNOWITALL There’s some hypocrisy in preaching about being pro-life but not for “the people having baby after baby just for a check”.

Jesus Christ.

That is a new level of delusional. Have you seen the people who are on welfare? Do the families with multiple children seem to be living the high life to you? Seriously?

@SQUEEKY2 Don’t be foolish. Many working class people ARE conservatives. In fact most are. They live paycheck to paycheck. Why is it so hard to believe that the right don’t like Ocasio-Cortez because they see her as a puppet and they don’t like socialism? Is it really any more difficult than that? No.

haha, I’m sooooo sorry I missed the replies!

First, @Dutchess_III, I think you are calling me a liar which isn’t cool. I don’t think truth and fact are judgemental or hateful. Some of the people I’m discussing are friends of mine, or were, and ate far better than most people I know.

@raum Some people abuse the system because they’re truly just lazy, my ex sister in law for one. She managed to get pregnant from a random as soon as her child turned 18, so the checks don’t stop. I actually know people on the system, I guess you guys don’t, they know exactly how to get what they want with little effort, and if the govt fails they can always go to the local churches for anything else.

Lastly, I know not everyone abuses the system, but I have actually mentioned some issues I see to a state worker who said they simply do not have the manpower and bodies to investigate abuse. So facts are hard to come by.

I’m asking you to tell us of someone that you know personally who is having baby after baby to get rich on, on the government’s dime.
I do not know anyone personally who is that stupid. Apparently you do. I’m asking you to tell us about them. What kind of people are they?

@Dutchess_III I just gave you an example.

She was raised on the dole and carried it into her adult life. She’s been in and out of jail for meth, and in jail got a brand new set of dentures to replace her broken meth teeth. My little niece had watched her mother shoot up (take vitamins with a needle) since age 7. When asked what she wanted to be when she grew up, she said she’d like to have kids and not work, like her mom.
That is reality for a lot of people. And it’s generational. It’s their way of life.

Another couple, who were my husband and I’s best friends for a long time, chose to defraud the govt by not getting married and living together (for 10+ years) so she could get medical benefits and govt assistance for her and her two kids (by the same man who lived with them the whole time and worked FT.) The last straw for us came when they invited us to dinner and had crab legs she’d gotten with her food stamps while he bought beer with his money. They did finally get married and get off govt assistance right before they divorced. I’m certain he doesn’t pay child support and she is probably still on assistance for the girls but we are no longer close.

Oh, I have no doubt that there are people like that in the country, but I have never known any one personally who stooped that low. Everyone I know (all single mothers) eventually got away from it. It’s a miserable existence.

When I was struggling below the poverty level, with the 4 kids, I wasn’t receiving any assistance, other than medical for the kids and food stamps for the family. I filled out a form every month with proof of my income, and they sent the food stamps according to that. And it was much more than I needed or expected. But why yell at me (or your friends) for it? We didn’t set the amount. Go talk to your representatives and tell them they need to rethink their calculations because they’re giving poor people too much food. I happen to agree with you.
In fact, have a heart. Be happy for them that they do get a little break in that area, because food stamps don’t buy toilet paper, soap, shampoo, toothpaste, Tampex, socks, shoes, clothes, or any of the stuff they need worse than they need more food.

@Dutchess_III Who’s yelling? Not me. I know the system is broken and it’s not going to get fixed, it’s just reality. Have a heart? She has a rich daddy (we know the whole family), but as long as she was with her ex the alcoholic, he cut her off. Either way, she didn’t have to lift a finger, leave the house or work a day in her life until after the divorce. Two children both on govt assistance got her everything she wanted.

Ok. You’re not yelling. You’re judging. Stop judging for the reasons I listed above. They don’t make the rules. Would it be more moral of them to lie and say they can’t afford to have you over for dinner to keep your approval?

”Two children both on govt assistance” Children aren’t on government assistance individually unless they are disabled and receive SSI. Are they receiving SSI?

The people you know are not representative of the vast majority. The vast majority just needs a little help. I know that you don’t feel they are worth helping. You wouldn’t have felt that I was worth helping.

@Dutchess_III Geez….stop making assumptions or I won’t talk to you again. Seriously, that passive aggressive crap is getting old. I’ve overlooked it too many times to not call you on it. So stop or this is the last time I treat you as an intellectual equal.

Now then.
Yes, I’m judging her for breaking the law and bragging to us about it and getting away with it. That’s not okay. Its not okay to raise your kids like that imo either, because they think it’s ‘okay’.

She got medical insurance for sure, food stamps and who knows what else. She got assistance for the first and had the second.

I know not everyone is like that but some are. Wearing blinders doesn’t solve anything.

I wouldn’t help you? Now who’s judging?! You don’t even know me….lol

I don’t blame you for judging her for breaking the law. It’s a bad thing she’s doing, all the way around. But you can’t judge every single person receiving some sort of welfare by that standard. And why are you even friends with a person like that the first place? People who stoop to those levels don’t have a personality traits in other areas that I can relate to.

I didn’t make any assumption. I responded directly to your comment, ”The last straw for us came when they invited us to dinner and had crab legs she’d gotten with her food stamps….” what does “the last straw” supposed to be if not judgemental?

Sounds to me like she was trying hard to impress you guys….fail.

@Dutchess I dont judge everyone on welfare. Smh. I do make a judgement call when people involve children in fraud. Or try to involve me. My husband was friends with them since childhood and she is a great human. But she made bad decisions for awhile because of a worthless drunk of a husband-baby daddy. Her father offered her anything to leave him. She couldnt go anywhere without a babysitter or taking the kids because of his drinking. He also slept with her sister and her niece. Ugh, sickening.

They were trying to impress us, you’re right. Most everyone couldnt take her baby daddy and his alcoholism or narcissism.

I also believe using good judgement is different from judging her or her choices. We have talked recently and she’s back to a great life. But I looked up her current boyfriend and he’s got a rap sheet, too. Mostly drinking offenses. So I told her and she defended him. Same pattern. Sad.

@seawulf575 She is the least puppet there is,she doesn’t have corporate funds, she hasn’t been bought by any pact, and you still see her as a puppet?
Most on the right are under big oil money, or some other pact, and yes that goes for a lot on the left as well but she isn’t one of them and yet you still think she is a puppet.
Yeah but your right most would rather face financial ruin if they ever need major medical help then shudder give in to universal health care.
And major universities those are for the wealthy not some middle class low life, wouldn’t want to give into affordable higher education, hell that could take money right out some over priced militarycontractors hands.
And you think SHE is a puppet, care to go back and look at how captain bone spurs deals with Putin,or the Saudi’s now that is a real puppet.

@Dutchess_III My daughter had a friend that got pregnant at 18 and was excited because it would enable her to get entitlement money for it. She got pregnant a year later to up that amount. Oh! and she was encouraged to do this by her mother who had done it. The cases are out there, if you care to look. Does it seem idiotic? On the surface. But the welfare money was enough to make the house payment, pay the bills, and buy the groceries. I was in line behind a guy at the check out line of the grocery a few months ago. He had a cart full of food and another for beer. He pulled out a wad of food stamps for the food. Then pulled out a roll of money as big around as a baseball. He had to scroll down through the $100’s to get to the $20’s so he could pay for the alcohol. The initial thought was “why does he get food stamps if he has that much money?”

I had a daughter who got pregnant at 16. No one was excited. Scared shitless, not happy. If anyone was going to get “entitlement money” for the baby it would have been me. I did not get money…. I take that back. There was one month where I did receive cash assistance based on 4 kids. As I said it was $530 or so. And subtract the $150 child support they withheld because you have to pay cash assistance back. (Bet you didn’t know that, did you.)
My rent was $350. Factor in utility bill, phone bill (not cell phone, landline) gas, necessities (toilet paper, etc.)
Now. Do the math.

As far as the friend you described in the last sentence, he belongs up there with @KNOWITALL‘s friend…and in jail.

they are not representative of the vast majority of the people who receive assistance.

@Dutchess_III but the fact remains…these are not isolated incidents. The teen I mentioned lived with her mom. But because she was 18 she qualified for assistance….just as her mom was on assistance. Same household, many recipients. Adding children only increased the take. Her mom encouraged it. As for the guy with the wad of cash, you are probably right. He probably deserved to be behind bars. But again…these are not isolated incidents. These sort of things exist all over. And every time someone mentions cleaning up the entitlement programs, you on the left go nuts screaming about white privilege and hateful Republicans and racists and everything else under the sun.
I have an idea, and this goes for everyone: for one month, don’t think in terms of accusations. If someone says something like “we need to clean up entitlements” don’t immediately jump to the white privilege or racism thoughts. If someone says they support universal healthcare, don’t write them off as nutty liberals (yeah, that applies to me too).
Maybe they see something that bothers them and could be a problem for all of us. Instead, let’s try to understand what is bothering these people. Let’s ask the questions that can help clarify the problems, if they are problems. “Why do you see this as a problem?” “What part of this bothers you?” “What solutions do you propose?” When we automatically tune people out, it widens the gaps.

@seawulf575 Now if anyone calls you crazy for this particular post, I’ll never credit them with a brain again. Love it.

Also, some illegal immigrants do commit heinous crimes in the USA. Fact. I posted a few yesterday on the ‘consent’ post and no one said a word about that aspect.

@KNOWITALL No one deemed it relevant, as over 90% of sexual offenders are white men.

Immigrants aren’t infallible. But statistically, they commit less crimes than white Christian males.

How about a health care system that everyone regardless or wealth, age,race, or religion has access to without the risk of financial ruin.
Call it whatever you want.

How about access to post secondary education for those who make the grade regardless of wealth status.
Call it what ever you want.
How about a living wage for the lower income group so they don’t have to depend on food stamps at the end of a 40 hour work week.
Call it whatever you want.

@raum Nice deflection from criminal illegals, but if you want to go there, I’m in.

Here’s a few facts and a link to back it up.

Still, the analysis found, black people are disproportionate represented on the registries. African Americans account for 22 percent of publicly listed registered sex offenders nationally; they make up just 13 percent of the U.S. population.
....
Sex offenders may be “whiter,” but it is likely that non-white sex offenders receive more significant charges and face more prison time and more rigid terms of parole and probation than white sex offenders.

https://www.counterpunch.org/2016/04/11/are-sex-offenders-white/

@KNOWITALL I’d hardly consider African Americans immigrants. Pretty sure most of them ended up here because white males brought them over for a slave trade.

@raum We went from people on assistance to illegal immigration and crime, to sex crimes, to being all white to black, now African immigration and the evil white people again. Have fun with that prejudice.

@KNOWITALL I don’t have an issue with all white males. Because, you know, generalizing a whole group of people on the actions of a few is a pretty flawed approach.

I’m saying that over 90% of sexual offenders are white men. But no one in their right mind is saying we should round up all the white men.

Yet some see no issue with applying this whack logic to immigrants.

@raum The right have zero problem lumping everyone that doesn’t see things the way they do into one heap.
But if you do that to them they blow a gasket.

Also disturbing to see “immigrant” used interchangeably with “not white”.

Pretty dismissive of US history to classify African Americans as criminal illegals. Considering they were dragged across the ocean as property.

They seem to have forgotten the meaning of immigrants as people who are leaving their country, seeking refuge and resettlement.

@raum My facts contradict yours at 22% African American males, and I posted the link.

Read the posts again, I never claimed any one race is are immigrants. And fyi, some were sold into slavery by their own countrymen, another fact for ya.

@KNOWITALL you are facing an uphill battle. To the left, the only people that ever enslaved others were the white slavers and the white Americans. They totally negate the Arab slave trade that existed for centuries before that or the Barbary slavers that dealt largely in white slaves. They want an argument that they can try pinning on white people today. That is all they focus on. You aren’t going to dent their fantasies or get them to actually face facts. Keep trying if you like though, dear.

I find it very strange that the two most vocal Christians here wind up knowing people on welfare intimately, well enough to to trash them to the rest of the world. I actually think they’re making stuff up.

@KNOWITALL‘s story was plausibly believable, that the boyfriend lives with Mom, works, brings home cash that isn’t reported to the SRS (but they will get caught and then there will be hell to pay.)

@seawulf575 Was total fabrication. Again, I know this because I know how the system works. They obviously don’t.

Why don’t you guys look a little more deeply into the system, all the restrictions that are in place about how much cash assistance you can get, the rules for even getting cash assistance (you have to prove you are actively looking for work,) the caps on the assistance, then get together and work out a better fairy tale.

@Dutchess_III I had a neighbor for a while that was on all sorts of public assistance including cash assistance. Know what her “job” was? She was going to college. And public assistance was paying for that as well. As long as she was in college she could claim to be “looking for a job”. It took away all her drive to graduate. She changed majors at least once that I knew of and was in her 6th year. Sorry honey, I have seen too many scams to say the system is healthy. And while you like any opportunity to try slamming Christians, you might want to take that chance to see what we are actually saying. We are saying the system is scammed regularly. If you can’t see that, you are either not looking, are blind, or are a fool. Maybe you should step outside fantasyland to see what actually goes on in the real world.

If she was not disabled, was under 65, and did not have any dependent children she could not have gotten any cash assistance. Maybe a bit of food stamps, but no cash. Again, I call bullshit because you have no idea how the system works.
Here is an example for a portion of the requirements in Kansas:
“To qualify for TANF, Kansas families must have at least one child younger than 18 and assets of less than $2,250, excluding the home they live in and some personal items.”
That was in 2016. When I first learned about this kind of assistance, in 1992, I was told I would not qualify unless I sold my house and sold my car, which was paid off, and which they considered too new and nice (it was an 85 Aerostar Van.)

@Dutchess_III We are done, you and I. It was bad enough on Facebook that I had to unfriend you, and now you call me a liar after trying to force me to post stories to prove what I saw happening. That is such hypocritical crap.

Here’s some truth, much like your daughter in law, I don’t care what you think about anything.

@Dutchess_III Here’s a little more education for you: TANF varies from state to state. It is administered by the states. So once again, you show ignorance but have no problem trying to call bullshit on others. One other thought that you sort of missed in your mad rush to look foolish is that you didn’t ask if she had any children. She did. But yet again, you make yourself look foolish because singles can qualify for TANF as well. Here’s another thought for you: I’m not creative enough to make this stuff up. So when I tell you an anecdote you can pretty well bet it is true.
And one other part of this particular story that really made me realize how screwed up our entitlements are is how they administered it. She had section 8 housing, welfare, food stamps, medical and dental all paid for. She wanted to get a job and get off all of it, but her child had really bad asthma and needed the medical. She asked if she could keep that and get rid of the rest. They told her it was an all-or-nothing deal. If she got a job, she would lose her qualification for all support. So basically she would have to get a job that paid at least $15/hr (back in 1998) with benefits. There weren’t that many out there so she had to stay on the public dole. What a waste.

@seawulf575 What percent of TANF funds are being spent inappropriately?

No idea…which is why I advocate for overhauling the system. At least audit it. I found this article:

https://federalsafetynet.com/welfare-fraud.html

that says 10.6% of welfare payments are improper. I haven’t done any further research so that may or may not be accurate. But it seems based on GAO and OMB reports so there is that.

@seawulf575 By their own definition, that could mean that they shorted people 10.6% and the government saved that much. Medicaid (and every other insurance with much higher frequency from my experience) regularly makes errors for very normal reasons (e.g. a patient forgot to update insurance info with the receptionist when they checked in). These get discovered and corrected. It is my understanding that errors of that nature are included in that statistic. It doesn’t seem like a very meaningful number, except that we can know that fraud is no greater than 10.6%.

I’m fine with audits. I also think that the outrage of the “welfare queen” narrative is radically overstated, both in terms of cost and frequency. If you look at how much the Walton family for example has basically stolen from the taxpayer by forcing the taxpayer to supplement their underpaid employees, I suspect that they alone have cost the taxpayer orders of magnitude more money than all welfare fraudsters combined.

SUPER GREAT ANSWER^^^^^^^^ wish I could give you a thousand great answers for it, but the right won’t agree.

Yes, the rules vary from state to state @seawulf575, which is why I suggested you Google your state which you refused to do.

So, again, just using Kansas as a rule of thumb, I tracked down this handy dandy little chart. A family of 8 gets $714 a month, tops, in cash assistance. That breaks down to about $90 per person.
You’re going to argue that it’s all play money, because that’s the kind of nonsense you spew, but it’s not. It has to go to rent, utilities, gas, toothpaste, diapers, etc. If they’re older kids that’s a lot of kids to buy clothes and shoes for.

As I said, it’s a miserable existence.

Very good answer @gorillapaws

The right are on a new kick that the problem with the ballooning debt,isn’t tax cuts that benefit mostly the wealthy class, or giving obsciene amounts amounts of money to the mlitary.
It’s those damn ENTITLEMENT programs, you know medicare,medicaid, and social security that is why the states is so far in the hole.
It’s saying people on welfare are having more kids just for a higher check, kids are not just a box you bring home throw in the corner and forget, they are intensly expensive to feed and raise. So I am with you @Dutchess_III I don’t believe for a second that people have children just to increase the size of their welfare check.
Like saying Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez is just a puppet, really she isn’t bought by big oil or and Pharma company can say what she means,if she is a puppet she is a puppet for her voters and not big money lobbyists .

I know you don’t believe that people have children just to increase the size of their cash assistance, @SQUEEKY2. Most people know that is nonsense.
I was trying to present some facts to @seawulf575 and @KNOWITALL to try to educate them on the reality, and to temper their self righteous indignation over what those digusting poor people are doing, and help them develop some compassion and understanding. It’s not happening, obviously.

Won’t work the right will counter that they contribute more to charity than the left do, so that to them alone shows they have more compassion.
But to stand up and demand a living wage for the lower class worker.
Or say that everyone has a right to affordable health care.
How about if you meet the grades you can go to university regardless of your families wealth.
The right when hearing that then scream whats next communism?
The rights compassions stops once the charity check is in the mail.

So many conflicting righteous ideals. Anti abortion, but they insult poor families. Just as soon throw them out on the street because why should we have to help them out with the money that WE WORKED for.
Pro life, but it stops at our border.

@SQUEEKY2 Do you care this much about your OWN country? Just curious since you very rarely bring up the problems there to us.

Doesn’t the fact that he very rarely brings up the problems in his own country tell you anything, @KNOWITALL? I’d say it’s because his country, and virtually every other 1st world country, with the exception of the United States, has its shit together and they don’t have the embarrassing problems that we have.

@SQUEEKY2 Because your fellow countrymen seem to think there are many issues that need addressed right there. It’s an interesting read.

https://www.reddit.com/r/canada/comments/8zov7r/biggest_problems_in_canada/

Never said we were perfect, but at least we won’t face financial ruin if we need medical attention.
We defenitly have our share of problems, but again people even working lower wage jobs don’t need welfare at the end of their work week to put food on the able.
And why get your panties in a bunch when I side with your fellow country men and say YES everyone has a right to affordable health care.
Or even lower class workers have a right to a living wage.
You make it sound as if those things are truly horrible,are they really a bad thing?

No raises again. They can’t afford to give their workers raises, thanks to Trump economics.

@SQUEEKY2 Wow, you read that quick because several people mention healthcare and a living wage as huge concerns up there.

You don’t upset me in the slightest, I just can’t understand why you would have so many issues to address in your own country, and be so worried about this country and our politics. And tbh, some of the people you agree with are not very smart and not giving you real facts, just biased opinions.

Everyone does have a right to basic healthcare, yes. But until other issues are addressed, don’t put that on me and my taxes or we’ll wind up like Canada, waiting for appt for surgery (see article.)

Lower class worker, like the teenagers who can’t put a McDonalds hamburger together right deserving $15 per hour? haha, no, I will never agree with that and the repercussions of that.

Jesus. The contempt is unbelievable, @KNOWITALL. Simply unbelievable.

(Please stop talking to me)

Your right it’s just better to go off and die because you can’t afford to access the system ,rather than wait for surgery.

Well, not a problem @KNOWITALL. My impression of who you were, what kind of person I’ve always thought you’ve been, has done a complete 180 in the last two years. I always thought you were one of those Christians who actually walked the walk, and who I could respect. I was wrong. You have put your faith in trump, not god.
Peace out.

@SQUEEKY2 Is that a question? Are you talking about Canada or the US?

@Dutchess k, then, have a nice life!

If we’re on the topic of Canada, It’s interesting to note that you’re twice as likely to realize the American Dream in Canada than the US. They’re obviously doing a much better job creating opportunities for people to get rich from hard work instead of just being born into it than we are in America. #Sad. #TrickleDownIsALie.

@gorillapaws This is why I’m asking @SQUEEKY why he/she is fighting for the disadvantaged here in the US, when it appears by all accounts, the issues in Canada are worse.

Terry Glavin, recently writing in the Ottawa Citizen, mocked the idea that the United States could learn from Canada’s example when it comes to racial harmony. To illustrate his point, he compared the conditions of the African-American community to Canada’s First Nations. If you judge a society by how it treats its most disadvantaged, Glavin found us wanting. Consider the accompanying table. By almost every measurable indicator, the Aboriginal population in Canada is treated worse and lives with more hardship than the African-American population. All these facts tell us one thing: Canada has a race problem, too.
https://www.macleans.ca/news/canada/out-of-sight-out-of-mind-2/

The single largest source of carbon emissions is Canada’s oil industry, according to Environment Canada. The agency found that oil and gas accounts for a quarter of Canada’s greenhouse gas emissions. Of that, the oilsands is the most carbon intensive.
https://thenarwhal.ca/topics/environmental-issues-canada/

^Maybe because the majority of users here are from the United States. At least he (Squeeky) cares about his neighbors. Canada is in much better shape than the U.S..

@Stache How long has it been since you’ve spoken to your Aboriginal friends in Canada? Do they agree with you on that?

Your not trying to deflect are you @KNOWITALL ?
I have friends and relatives in the states, and I stand beside everyone that wants affordable health care for all.
Never said we didn’t have problems up here,but they pale when compared to the problems south of our border, but keep deflecting your good at it.

@SQUEEKY2 Since it’s so important, why don’t your friends solicit the US govt to take more taxes from all of the registered Democrats, so you can help? Do not give that free healthcare to any registered Republicans (that way Dems take care of Dems), and let’s see if that works!!

Your First Nations could just use some drinking water please. Sounds like a cause you could really get behind up there!

…..two-thirds of First Nations peoples in Canada lived under at least one water advisory (a public health notice that the water is contaminated). In a well-known case in Ontario, experts reported that 90 per cent of the population of Grassy Narrows and Wabaseemoong First Nations showed signs of exposure to mercury from the Wabigoon-English River system.
https://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.ca/en/article/native-people-social-conditions

And this all has to do with Alexandria how?

But Clinton!

Why the fuck are your panties in a bunch because a Canadian is
passionate about his neighbors? ffs

Since native Americans are so important to you I’d think you’d step away from the Republican party.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/oct/26/the-real-reason-for-voter-id-laws-to-prevent-native-americans-from-voting

Let’s not forget about the Dakota access pipeline. Remember when native Americans were hosed down last year when they were trying to protect their water? Republicans support this pipeline.

Thanks for the deflections again @KNOWITALL, if it isn’t tax breaks for mostly the wealthy or tons of money pumped into the military,they the Rep/cons want nothing for the average working slob .

@SQUEEKY2 You seem to be a perfect liberal convert, didnt know they had that much KoolAid….lol. Anyhoo, I’m bored.

@Stache Oh do all native Americans vote Dem?! I’d LOVE to see that link….lol. Tryagain later!

Yeah me too, I grow tired of all the deflecting.

So over your head, knowitall.

lololol

@gorillapaws By the definitions given in my citation the error could be due to the administration foul ups as well as fraud. If you notice, I haven’t said the 10.6% was all fraud and, in fact, if you read the article I provided, in some cases it wasn’t. But the fact remains $77B+ is walking out the door of our taxes that shouldn’t be in entitlement error. So while 10.6% seems good to you, it seems very excessive to me.

@Dutchess_III Nice dodge.
”Yes, the rules vary from state to state @seawulf575, which is why I suggested you Google your state which you refused to do.”
I call bullshit on you, dear. You never once suggested googling my state. I went back to look. You did, however say I was making up fairy tales and called bullshit on me. So no, you don’t get to try sounding reasonable now. You were ignorant until I clocked you on it. Even with this lame answer, if you knew that it varied from state to state, how can you call bullshit or fairy tales unless you looked up my state first? Which you didn’t. What a faker.

@Stache let me help you with the ties here since you seem clueless. Ocasio-Cortez is not liked by the right because she is a socialist and we don’t like socialists ideals. The fact that the conversation digresses to socialist ideals seems a fairly straightforward tie. Showing with full disclosure how socialized medicine fails in our neighbors country (especially when one of those neighbors isn’t being fully forthcoming about it as he opines on what we should do) has to be a part of that discussion as well. Geez….wish you could keep up.

Well I am going to agree with you the right dislike socialists ideas,because the right dislikes anything that actually helps the lower classes, like universal health care, or a living wage.
Hell the right still think trickle down is the way to go, and look at how well that helps the lower classes.
Degregulate everything let the private sector run amuck and that will be the best for everyone, after all they have the working slobs best interest in mind at all times.
Get those coal plants back on line ,you need cheap power,who cares if no one can breath,it’s over rated anyway profit is all that matters, that goes for water to, no need for any pollution control equipment on industry no profit in that.
And when one gets sick or injured and they don’t have the over priced clause riddled health insurance they can just crawl off and die,there are plenty more lower class slobs to replace them anyways,after all it’s profit and make the rich richer at all costs who cares about anything else,in fact what else is there except making money?
Screw everyone and everything else that is the right wing capitalist way, money first, people last.

Alright then @seawulf575. Look up welfare rules and requirements for your state. Until you provide some proof of your claim, that an able bodied, young college student with no children was able to get cash assistance from the state, AND the state was paying for her tuition to boot, then I will continue to call bullshit on you. Prove it.

I just thought of something…...Perhaps..you don’t know the difference between state welfare and federal PELL grants and student loans?

@Dutchess_III keep digging girl. You either don’t read my responses or you are purposely trying to alter the conditions so you don’t look like such a horse’s ass. Too late. At no time did I say an able-bodied young college student without children was getting TANF. YOU jumped on that without verifying, which I have already pointed out to you. So basically, you jumped up on your high horse trying to get a “gotcha!”, got clocked…repeatedly…so now you are trying to make your own bullshit into the reality. IT’S ALL IN PRINT ABOVE! How can you live that deeply in your fantasy world that you think what is right there in front of everyone doesn’t exist? Do us all a favor…discuss this with your therapist.

Well, why didn’t you clarify all of those things when I questioned it?
Either she is, or is not, disabled (circle one.)
Either she does, or does not, have children. (circle one.)
Either she does, or does not, receive a welfare check (circle one.)

Or deflect. Whatever.

@SQUEEKY2 Sorry…you have zero credibility with me. I already clocked you in this same thread. You spew on and on about the US and I showed you three citations that show all the glaring problems with Canadian healthcare. You didn’t actually address any of them. You tried doubling down on how horrible the US is. I called bullshit on a random number you threw out about how many people die in the US due to no healthcare and you gave me a citation….that totally refuted your statement! You are a sad, sad little man. And a poser. Please…do us all a favor and stay north of the border.

Go to sleep, @Dutchess_III . I have answered all your questions as we went along. You didn’t want to read them then. Now that you have made you a total fool of yourself I don’t intend to help you out of the hole you have dug.

As you have with me, I trust zero of your fright wing links,you sure your not late for a klan meeting?

So your answer is to deflect. Figures.

@SQUEEKY2, I don’t know about you but I’m going to leave these two simple minded, judgemental, intolerant, angry “Christians” here to spin around in their own little sanctimonious club so they can trash all the poor people and the non Christians.

I agree @Dutchess_III I am with you but don’t worry ole wulfie will no doubt throw up a ton more fright wing links claiming them gospel and declare herself the victor on this thread ,and head off for more left wing bashing.

Nice Dodge, @SQUEEKY2 . The City Journal is hardly a “fright wing” outlet. They are a quarterly magazine. And the National Post is a Canadian outlet. The last is Forbes which, again, is hardly a uber-right outlet. But thanks for playing. Anything to try avoiding the fact you were spewing total crap. Another way to avoid looking more like a horse’s ass. Too late on both.

Yes, @Dutchess_III whatever you have to tell yourself to keep your fantasy alive. If you go back, you will find all your answers in a previous comment of mine in this same thread….one directed to you. The fact you are so wrapped around the axle of your liberal ideology keeps you from seeing all those answers. And the fact you won’t actually go back and see what a jackass you have been means me repeating myself would be an exercise in idiocy. I don’t want to waste my time. You want to live in your fantasy, that is fine. But as everyone can see…you ARE in a fantasy land.

@seawulf575 “But the fact remains $77B+ is walking out the door of our taxes that shouldn’t be in entitlement error.”

That’s not a fact at all. It’s possible that $77B was paid and then refunded back to the government. It’s not the same as the cost to the taxpayer. All we know about that number is that it’s the ceiling for fraud—which is almost certainly a small fraction of that number.

Trumps corporate tax cut is going to cost the taxpayer somewhere in the neighborhood of $190B per year alone. You’re clearly 247% more outraged about that number because you’re not a hypocrite. I’m sure you’re livid about estimated $6.2B in subsidies that go to Walmart via taxpayers supporting their underpaid employees.

”[73%] of enrollees in America’s major public support programs [have at least one family member who works 27 or more weeks per year and 10 or more hours per week].”(source) These programs are primarily being used by people who work but aren’t earning living wages. Surely you’re enthusiastic about the idea of raising minimum wages to a living wage standard to help save taxpayers money right?

@seawulf575 Looks to me as if ‘someone’ has a guilt complex over receiving assistance at one time in her life in order to survive. That certainly wasn’t my intention in posting here, but only to show that a few people do manipulate the system to get more than their fair share.

Are you a Christian? Just curious, we’ve never discussed that have we?

@gorillapaws your assumption that the money was refunded back is incorrect. Some of that money might make its way back to the government, but most is gone. It is improper filing for various things, it is PELL grants going to those that didn’t qualify, it is scams on the system. It is a whole lot of things that are errors or fraud. And it is still $77B that isn’t going where it could/should.
As for the higher minimum wage…no, I don’t support it. For quite a few reasons. First, it will close some businesses…those that are small businesses that are just getting by. Maybe they are mismanaged, maybe they are just in start up. But the extra cost will close those businesses and take the jobs with them. Next you have companies that probably could survive the increased O&M cost. These will automate some jobs and will cut back on others. That will eliminate jobs as well. After that, you have the issue that raising minimum wage will not help the poor as it should. With the closure of jobs being a part of it, you also have another phenomenon happening. The existing jobs go to those that have college degrees but can’t find jobs. They go to those that are better candidates to move into management eventually and then on up the corporate ladder. It doesn’t help the poor…it cuts them out. It also has another side-effect. It isn’t just the minimum wage that has to go up. Supervisors and managers will have to make more money as well. If you are paying $15/hr to the bottom level employee, you can’t pay $10/hr to their boss. You can’t realistically even pay $15/hr.You would have to pay at least $18/hr. And so on and so on. And lastly, most companies will use that as an excuse to raise prices. After they cut payroll and automate to get expenses back down, they will claim the higher wages mean they have to charge more for their product. So prices will go up. All in all, I think the push for raising minimum wage is foolish.

@seawulf575 “your assumption that the money was refunded back is incorrect.”

I never said that it all was refunded back, just that it’s possible that it was. The data isn’t broken down so we don’t know.

“Some of that money might make its way back to the government, but most is gone.”
I’m pretty sure you’re wrong here. I know with Medicaid they will take their payments back from providers. I would need to see data to support that over $38.5B was written off to the taxpayer. I have no idea how you’re drawing that conclusion.

“And it is still $77B that isn’t going where it could/should.”
Again, I suspect that much (if not most of it) only goes to the wrong place temporarily. Your statement is very misleading.

Companies are going to automate jobs regardless of how cheap the labor costs are. Machines don’t get sick or have worker’s comp claims. That doesn’t mean we should eliminate sick leave and worker’s comp. There will always be demand for low-skilled labor for the next 100 years at least. Policy could certainly be changed to punish companies who offshore jobs. Remember that with increased wages you have workers able to have more disposable income that drives demand for products and services. This forces businesses to hire more employees to keep up with demand. It’s a virtuous cycle. See this article about a Pretzel company that saw big increases in sales after the minimum wage increased.

What you’re suggesting simply doesn’t happen in the real world. Tax breaks don’t stimulate demand for hiring new employees, especially if those tax cuts come at the expense of investing in American people and infrastructure. Companies take those tax breaks and buyback their stocks, and some have used it to fund R&D for automating away jobs.

Any true fiscal conservative would want businesses (especially ones with record-breaking profits) to cover their costs and not externalize their labor costs onto the taxpayer.

@KNOWITALL yep…Christian here.

@gorillapaws and yet since the tax reform went through, we have seen up to 13% more tax revenue than before. That’s a lot. And that isn’t just the rich. That means there are more people working and earning more.

As for minimum wage going up helping, here is a really good study done on Seattle and the impact on the working people:

https://evans.uw.edu/sites/default/files/w25182.pdf

Here’s another:

https://evans.uw.edu/sites/default/files/w23532_0.pdf

In summary, what they found was the first increase from $9/hr to $11/hr saw little impact. When it jumped to $15/hr, they saw that hours were cut, jobs were lost and overall take home pay went down for the workers. Compared to jobs outside the city that weren’t impacted by the increase in minimum wage (in other parts of Washington state), they found that the jobs outside the impact of the increase were not impacted. In fact extra jobs were being created.

@seawulf575 , This is from the first paper you linked to:

“Our analysis of over 14,000 workers employed at wages under $11/hour in early 2015, as well as some 25,000 employed at wages under $13/hour at the conclusion of 2015, documents the expected and intended impacts of Seattle’s minimum wage ordinance on hourly wages. Evidence indicates that these workers experienced no significant decline in their likelihood of being employed and a modest reduction in their hours worked over the six quarters following the first and second wage increases. Taken together, the minimum wage law increased these workers’ pretax earnings by average of around $10 per week. Further analysis indicates that earnings gains were concentrated among more experienced workers, with the less-experienced half of Seattle’s baseline low-wage workforce showing no significant change.”

There was an overall increase in employee salary of $10 per week. Mostly this went to more experienced workers. Those in the lower half stayed as they were. In short, experienced employees benefited and the less experienced were no worse off. When the less experienced become more experienced, they will also benefit.

@seawulf575 ” and yet since the tax reform went through, we have seen up to 13% more tax revenue than before.”

That’s a misleading statement. Because the economy grows every year except in recessions, we expect tax revenue to increase. According to politicifact the idea that Trump tax cuts boosted tax revenue is rated as mostly false.

“According to the report, individual income tax receipts were up by 7.8 percent compared to the equivalent 10-month period in 2017….But the same Treasury report shows that corporate taxes were down during the first 10 months of the fiscal year. In fact, they were down by 28.5 percent—a whopping plunge, but not a surprising one, given the sweeping corporate tax cuts included in the new law.”

It’s nice to see that the tax burden has continued to be shifted on the backs of the low and middle classes.

The non-peer-reviewed working papers you’ve sourced from the National Bureau of Economic Research a conservative funded group. The first paper is thoroughly debunked in this article by the Economic Policy Institute.

“The analysis in this report supports the hypothesis that the federal minimum wage increase from $5.15 in 2007–to $7.25 in 2009 did little to affect employment levels. Industrial and geographic factors account for the employment differences between states with and without significant minimum wage increases, so these employment differences were correlated with but not caused by the minimum wage. Once the appropriate controls are included, employment differences between unbound and bound states are generally small and statistically insignificant.”

The second article is throughly debunked in this analysis. I’d be happy to delve into the specific methodological flaws in their studies if you’d like.

Or you could take a look at this study that contradicts their findings.