This bothers me too.

I know people (white people) who have said they liked the idea of a black person becoming president. That drives me crazy. Plenty of black peoples came out to vote for Obama, who don’t usually vote, which obviously helped, and that doesn’t drive me as crazy, I can understand it. A lot of people went into black neighborhoods to get the vote out. I have a personal friend who did it. I have a Republican friend who switched to Democrat for Obama.

At the time, I had a friend in Chicago, and she was for Obama early on. She actually was represented by him, so she voted for him from a true knowing place.

There were other people of course who simply liked Obama’s message more than Hillary.

Also, plenty of people don’t like an All In The Family situation of leadership. Dynasty, nepotism, legacy, anything close to any of those bothers some people.

I always believed the Oprah effect at least partly. She had him on the show before he ever was running for President, and then she endorsed him. This was when she still had a Daily talk show.

Because Obama was all that and a bag of chips.

I won’t let anything being shoved down my throat.
And I’m sure I’m part of a majority of people who’d say the same.
In other words, maybe Obama was chosen by people who agreed with his ideas and policies.
Rather than “oh, wouldn’t it be something else to have a man of color in the office”.
Sure, exposure is probably playing a big role in electing officials, but to counter that (if you’d like to) you’d have to better educate the people, about what elections and politics entails.
It’s not a pageant.

Typo: people not peoples.

It wasn’t so much the MSM, who do not speak with a unified voice despite what people think. It was largely Obama’s charisma and the chance for something new. Clinton is and was capable but not super dynamic. I voted for her in 2016 when the DNC decided to annoint her but she does rub people the wrong way. I’m hoping the party machine is not so powerful this time. I would love to see a woman President.

I will always vote for the lesser of two evils if that is the choice we have to make. I will do it for the salke of those who will suffer if we go third party, don’t vote or write-in. I do that to alleviate the suffering of refugee families, the poor and those others who have no voice.

Hillary Clinton’s negative poll numbers are second only to those of Trump. People just don’t like her very much. I voted for Sanders over her in the primary, but held my nose and voted for her in the presidential election. Fortunately, she chose not to run in this year’s election.

The DNC had decided that Obama was their next candidate back when Bush & Kerry were battling it out. Obama had spoken at the DNC Convention & the public reacted favorably. It was announced that night that we had just seen the next Dem candidate speak for his party. When time came for Obama to run, Hillary decided that she was NOT going to be ignored!!!

I ALWAYS loved Bill, but I NEVER trusted Hillary!!! I wouldn’t vote for her IF she was the ONLY candidate running for office. IF you watch Hillary today, she’s not physically nor mentally stable enough to run or office. She had some type of medical issues back on 2016 that have not been told to the general public…just in case they needed her to run. She was on a talk show recently where it was obvious to me that she was speaking very slow & calculated. She seemed to have to search for her words.

I don’t see it as much the MSM pushing others as the DNC realizes that Hillary isn’t going in because too many voters may like her but don’t trust her, so wouldn’t vote for her!!! That plus the health issues may be the reason she’s laying back & staying out of running. Wiith what I saw that night, she’s sure NOT ready to take on trump again!!!

I’ve been waiting for over 50 years for a female President, but Hillary is NOT the one I can support!!!

“Hillary Clinton was all that…

Because she wasn’t, and isn’t.

She was not my first, second, or third choice in 2008; she was not my first, second, or third choice in 2016. I never voted for her in a primary. She is way too much of a corporate democrat, just like Bill. She does not inspire people the way Obama did (and still does).

I guess it was because America just wasn’t ready for a female president.

^^I disagree with that. I’m not arguing, I just hear that all of the time and wanted to state that I think it was more that people thought a black president was impossible and wanted to make it possible. That a black president was more incredible considering the country’s history. I know the real history is black men got rights before women in a lot of things, including voting, but most of America doesn’t know that or if they do it’s not front in their minds.

@JLeslie ” I think it was more that people thought a black president was impossible and wanted to make it possible.”

No chance that people were rejecting decades of centrism/neoliberalism and were responding to his progressive message of hope/change? Of course Obama didn’t really follow through on his rhetoric.

despised the MSM for shoving Obama down our throats

That is projecting personal resentment onto reality. It’s the common fallacy of seeing an agenda and motive behind plain reporting when you don’t like the facts.

“Obama wins the nomination” is regarded as “we (the press) are giving Obama the nomination”. “Clinton does not win the nomination” is regarded as “we (the press) hate Hillary”.

Clinton wasn’t trounced or rejected or abandoned. It was a very close race with a 1% spread. A little googling says the debates began in April of 2007, and Clinton conceded in June of 2008. One year and two months is a long campaign and we did not know who would come out on top until the very end.

Also, you can’t say Obama was a bad choice. He went on to win two general elections.

@JLeslie Quit focusing on race or gender. Circumstances of birth do not make anyone qualified to be President.

You keep focusing on Obama being the first black president as reason for his election, when in fact it was because he was by far the best candidate!

^ Yup

My instincts told me to not trust Clinton. I didn’t vote for Obama because he was black. I liked the way he spoke and felt he’d be a nice change of pace

@gorillapaws I said a lot of people liked Obama better period. Most people I know didn’t think about his race at all, nor that Hillary was a woman. I’m tired of people saying people wouldn’t vote for a woman, I think that’s bullshit. I think most who voted for Obama wanted him and his charisma and policies. I think most of America is not racist or sexist, especially among Democrats.

@zenvelo Sorry, but I know people who were enthralled by the idea. I think it helped Obama. I don’t think that’s the majority of people who voted for him, but I think it helped him. I don’t focus on race, they do.

Edit: I’ve heard people say the debate stage isn’t diverse anymore. There is two Jews and a woman and an Asian man. Is diversity only African Americans and Latinos? I find ALL the focus on race, religion, gender, sexual orientation, minority status, ridiculous. I hear tons of people saying Buttegieg has no chance because he is gay, I call bullshit on that too.

I don’t recall all of the candidates who made it to the convention that year, but as you know, every state in the union cast its’ votes for the candidates and, as luck would have it, Obama won the nomination to be the Democrat’s contender for President. So it’s not like the election for the party’s nominee was just between Obama and Clinton, who only opposed one another in the primaries, not the general election…

When Bush ran against Kerry, Obama gave a speech at the Dem Convention. It was announced that night that Obama was going to be the next party candidate. Clinton refused to accept that idea and chose to run against him. Everything else is history

Hillary Clinton is an awful woman…end of!

@SEKA That was in the primaries.

Clinton was the best prepared candidate for President I have ever seen. That said, I voted for Obama because during one of the debates, a question was asked about torture. Obama gave the right answer, and after hearing that, Hillary gave the wrong answer!
After that, I happily voted for Obama. In 2016, I was back in Hillary’s camp.

@filmfann So you were a delegate from your state at the democratic convention?

I never though Clinton was all anything, except it was impressive sort of that she has done what she has done as a woman in the sexist culture around her, and maintains a snarky attitude in the face of lots of hatred and prejudice and other bullshit, some of which isn’t deserved.

For years I didn’t understand why so many people hated her so much, and it’s still clearly largely about people being tribaly aligned against her, but after paying attention in the 2016 primary, I saw how she was really awful in many ways, on top of being a conservative corporate-aligned person taking up a “Democratic” seat, and how she and the DNC are together in the same pocket of pro-corporate status-quo-or-worse power bloc.

I didn’t listen to Clinton much before 2016, but when I did, I heard her emptily pretending to be progressive and parroting the Sanders ideas that she didn’t think she could dismiss, but utterly failing to seem like she actually cared about them.

Obama on the other hand always sounds very intelligent and well-meaning, which gave many people a lot of hope he’d bring lots more good progressive change (than he actually did or was able to do in the face of all the corruption and Congress etc). I’d still far prefer more Obama years to Clinton – I don’t think she cares much more than lip service to most progressive causes, and she’s clearly deeply entangled with the oligarchy.

I’m tired of people saying people wouldn’t vote for a woman,

In 2016 most did vote for a woman.

@JLeslie “I’m tired of people saying people wouldn’t vote for a woman”

I won’t vote for a corporatist, no matter what’s between the candidate’s legs.

It usually has to do with which candidates can win which states,(that electoral college bit) and the results of the primaries.

With the democrats, we had a potential first female president and a potential first African American (or at least partially African American) president. Obama campaigned with a lot of optimism and unification in 2008 at least, but no one could really determine much about Hillary that they didn’t already believe about her

@gorillapaws Well said.

The other problem is that some people seem to want you to vote for a woman because she’s a woman and that is not a reason. It never will be.

Neither being female nor being black would deter democrats from voting for any candidate. In fact, those traits would be a plus. America was wanting change.

some people seem to want you to vote for a woman because she’s a woman

I think that is a very small number. In 2016 I don’t remember it being part of the discussion at all.

Remember the “PUMAs” (Party Unity My Ass) in 2008 – women who said they would vote GOP or stay home in November because Hillary was out?

In reality, it was just a handful of upper-middle-class women who usually vote Republican. They identified with Clinton as a woman in the circles of wealth and influence.

They had the connections, time, and money to get themselves a little attention in the news but it wasn’t otherwise a viable movement.

Because she wasn’t all that. She never has been. There are other reasons why she lost the primary in 08. Those reasons are more about Obama than Clinton.

There is no more truth to the trope of Obama’s success as a product of the MSM than there is credibility to the preposterous fiction of Trump’s bungling and criminal ineptitude as the fictional creation of the press.

I was no advocate for Hillary, but in comparison with the field she was up against, she was indeed ALL THAT AND BETTER! Clinton was as good a candidate as we were likely to see when it comes to conforming to corruptions traditional to machine politics. She’s smart as a whip and tough as a nail, and unlike Obama, by then understood the stark necessity in kicking the shit out of the Republican Congress. She’s a tough and capable old bird!

@Demosthenes I would really love to want to vote for a woman for President. I think it’s important for the generations growing up to see a female role model achieve the highest office. It’s pretty important to me, but not so much so that the policies are not important.

@gorillapaws I didn’t say you won’t vote for a woman. In fact I’m saying I think the majority of people will vote for a woman. That’s my point. I don’t think Obama won because America won’t vote for a woman. People didn’t like Hillary for other reasons. You are agreeing with me.

Obama was elected over Hillary for the same reason Trump was elected over Hillary. Obama ran on a platform of “hope and change”. He hinted at wanting to change the corruption in DC. He, of course, lied about that, but people didn’t know that at the time and were tired of establishment politics and Hillary fully represented that. Trump ran on a platform of “drain the swamp” and people were still recognizing that needed to happen. And Trump was certainly not part of the establishment politicians. Our federal government is broken. It is full of self-serving bureaucrats and that needs to change. So people continue to vote for the person they believe will help lead for that change. Which is exactly why Trump will win in 2020.

@kritiper You mistaken. It was 4 years before the primaries. It was during the 2000 Dem Convention announcing Kerry as the candidate running against Bush. There had been numerous speakers that evening. When Obama spoke, everyone was enthralled by his charisma and eloquence. The DNC sent someone out to speak to the press. I don’t remember who it was talking with the press, but they point blank stated, “You just heard the next Dem candidate speak tonight. He’s up and coming and ready to run the country”. I was new to voting and was absorbing everything I could from both sides because I took voting very serious. I remember thinking “that’s not the way it works and I doubt we’re going to see a black man in the White House.” Sure enough, the next election it was Obama against Clinton with Obama chosen as the Dem candidate

I consider myself an expert, on reading people. Maybe I’m wrong…
My read on Hillary, was that she said a lot of things that she didn’t believe. She was born, wanting to be POTUS. She is smart, and capable. But. I don’t trust her.
She should have slapped Bill, and divorced him. She stayed with him, to further her political career. I can never respect someone who doesn’t respect themselves, or their values…

Obama, seems to be a real man. He sticks with his values. If he’s faking it, he’s doing a great job…

He was clearly intelligent, and he almost got me to vote….

My understanding is that he carefully considered each action, he took. He *listened,*to his advisors. Including his wife.

He was perhaps, our best president. IMO.
He took over, a disaster, from GW…
Most of the economic success we’re seeing, is from him…

I disagreed, with some of his tactics. That, is to be expected.

But. He, was classy, and a great diplomat. I would opine, he’s the opposite of Trump….

@SEKA My point was that it didn’t happen during the general election.

@kritiper My point was that someone in a position of authority announced 4 years ahead of time that Hilllary would not be the candidate in the next election. To me, that was circumventing the people’s vote in the General Election

In all honesty, I think people just find it difficult to respect her. Bill humiliated her in front of the entire world and she wasn’t strong enough to leave him.

^That’s part of it… Bill, undoubtedly stepped out on her multiple times.
And while she’s working on her political ambition, Bill’s walking around with vagina flavored cigars. Every time she kissed him, she must have tasted another woman…
Not exactly a powerful person. She couldn’t control her own life. How was she supposed to control the country?

I love Bill. But. I don’t love him, as a person. She would have had a LOT of my respect, if she stood up to him. Stood up for herself…
I’m not proud to say, I kicked my ex out of my house on several occasions. But. It happened. I’m not presidential material. But. I can stick up, for myself. It hurts sometimes. But. You have to defend yourself….

Great answers everyone. Thank you for responding. This is one of my questions where I think my phone should have a breathalyzer and not let me Fluther if I’ve had a few, but you’ve all kept it civil. Thank you.

@CallMeJay the MSM did push Obama. I was a stay at home mom at the time who had various news stations on daily in the background. Rachel Maddow and Chris Mathews couldn’t hide their excitement for Obama (before he was elected.) I quit watching MSNBC because of those two.

I thought Clinton was the better choice at the time and did resent Obama for a bit. I look back now and wish I appreciated him more than I did. He was a great president.

@seawulf575 “Our federal government is broken. It is full of self-serving bureaucrats and that needs to change. So people continue to vote for the person they believe will help lead for that change. Which is exactly why Trump will win in 2020.“

You are mistaken. This is exactly why Bernie will win. ;)

I do agree with everything else you said.

I’d like to know why democrats feel entitled to the third party, write in, non voters vote as if they’d vote for a democrat if they didn’t vote how they desire. @janbb?

I lost a LOT of respect for Hillary after Bill got caught & she faked playing the victim standing by her man. That woman is a lot of things, but victim ain’t one of them!!! I wouldn’t be shocked to learn that SHE bought the cigars for Bill!!!

@Jonsblond I think my first response speaks for itself.

Can’t tell you how much it bothers me that people judge Hillary for staying with Bill. I was going to mention it above, but didn’t, because no other Jellies had mentioned it, but now that it has been mentioned in recent posts I feel compelled to say something. Their marriage is their business.

Hate her or lose respect for her for other things fine, but she had to deal with her husband’s infidelity on a public stage and that’s total crap. I’m betting some of the people who are hardest on her probably have parents, friends, siblings, or even themselves who have been cheated on, and maybe they knew, maybe they didn’t, but cheating is so statistically high that I think people should just worry about themselves and not make it a barometer for others. Believe me, there are people all around you who you think are wonderful who are cheaters, or who have been cheated on.

I’m not defending cheating, I think it is very destructive behavior.

No one knows everything between partners except the two partners. They have a daughter together, shared a long life together, and they decided to stay together. It’s not just their experience together and emotional bond, but I would think it’s also part of their identity. I’m sure it was a tough decision for Hillary to make. Women worry about being judged for being weak if they stay with a spouse who harmed them in some way, obviously this is why.

@cheebdragon @MrGrimm888 If I remember correctly neither of you are married, I might be wrong. It’s probably easier to sit in judgment when you don’t have your entire life intertwined like most marriages.

@SEKA Which is of no consequence in the context of the OP’s question.

@Jonsblond I hate to say it, but Bernie probably won’t get the nomination for almost the same reason he didn’t get it last time. The establishment Dems don’t want him as POTUS. They will push Biden. And with the impeachment going on as it is, it will pull basically all the other contenders out of the campaign field. Bernie, Liz Warren, Amy Klobucher, Cory Booker (if he hadn’t just pulled out), and Tulsi Gabbard will all have to stop campaigning so they can attend the Senate trial. So if that drags on, they will effectively be pulled from the running. That would leave a pretty slim field of Biden and Buttegieg. And the Dems want Biden since he would more likely get the moderate Dems back into the mix whereas Bernie wouldn’t.

@seawulf575 …And the Dems want Biden since he would more likely get the moderate Dems back…”

The establishment Dems don’t want Bernie because they know that if he wins he’ll end their gravy train. No more wine caves, many of the political consultants and bundlers will be out of a job. I imagine being a politician is a lot less fun when you’re not able to earn millions of dollars insider trading like Pelosi.

I honestly believe most of the Democratic establishment would rather have Trump for another 4 years than Bernie for 8. They have no desire for a political revolution when the people getting the boot would be them and their buddies. They love corruption as much as the Republicans.

@JLeslie To me, we’ve been thru all this before here on fluther, but you don’t run a campaign on female empowerment when you victim shame when your husband is the perp.
Obama on the other hand, was a family man with little for anyone to complain about, rather squeeky clean to many other than the birthers, etc…

“Mr. Trump may have said some bad words, but Bill Clinton raped me, and Hillary Clinton threatened me,” Broaddrick added. “I don’t think there’s any comparison.”

https://www.newsweek.com/did-hillary-clinton-help-bill-clinton-intimidate-and-discredit-his-accusers-714636

Frankly, I can’t understand why anyone is talking about the Clintons any more. They are has-beens.

@janbb Clinton is still a tool the oligarchy can use, e.g. to attack Tulsi Gabbard. Hopefully no one expects her to run for POTUS again, so she can be used to create stories without damaging her chances of being that kind of tool.

And others of course still use her as a target to deflect attacks on Trump or the GOP. “But her emails…” etc.

Poor reasons to talk about them, but unfortunately that doesn’t stop people.

@JLeslie . I’m not married. It’s something that I just don’t believe in. A piece of paper, and a ring? Why do I need that, to prove that I love someone?
And given that half end, in divorce, and apparently others are relationships with two people tolerating each other because of entanglement, it doesn’t sound like a good idea.

Hillary is multi-millionaire. And given the obvious evidence of Bill cheating, she would have likely gotten some of his assets too…
She stayed with him, to further her political career. So yes, I feel quite comfortable “sitting in judgement” of her…
Just as you are clearly comfortable, judging me…

And, BTW, I hate pantsuits too. So. There you go!

^^Almost 70% of first marriages stay together. People who do get divorced are highly likely to divorce their second spouse, and that kicks the statistic up to 50% of all marriages.

If you are in a long term relationship (let’s say over 20 years) then I would equate that to being married for many years, I honestly have no idea how long your have been in a relationship. Do you have all your finances intertwined? A child? Married people generally build a life together in many ways, it’s multifaceted, and if the relationship gives them power, or makes life easier than being single, then they are weighing all the options when something crappy happens. It’s not just being married, but the length of time, and all the experiences you have been through together. It’s not simple, it’s complicated. If my husband cheated on me one of the things I would be is pissed off he’s making have to decide whether to stay or go if he wanted to stay. I’d be extremely hurt, I’d be sick from it, the betrayal, but taking apart my whole life and everything we built up would really suck from a practical matter.

It’s not the paper or a ring, it’s the constant teamwork to achieve goals in life for each individual in the relationship and the relationship itself. It seems to me Bill has always respected his wife’s intelligence and career goals. That’s how it appears anyway. Hilary has definitely supported Bill’s career goals. Bill has been a shitty husband in the fidelity realm, and it’s worse than just cheating, he seems to have really hurt some women. I’m not defending his actions, but I’m not going to crucify Hillary. Like I said, it’s complicated.

I’m not judging you by the way. I’m disagreeing with you.

^Thank you for clarifying. I think we’ve spoken our positions. I have no reason to add any further comments, at this point.

Peace n love.

@JLeslie What source are you getting 70% from?

I would think that figure applies more to older couples.
Older values.
IMO…

@cheebdragon I remember the “almost 70%” meaning in the high 60%ish range when I wrote it, from information I learned a long time ago, but I googled a little and found this information.

This has a simple synopsis of divorce rates. https://www.mckinleyirvin.com/family-law-blog/2012/october/32-shocking-divorce-statistics/

This has some more detail. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divorce_in_the_United_States#Rates_of_divorce

In that Wikipedia page under statistics it says “In 2002 (latest survey data as of 2012),[38] 29% of first marriages among women aged 15–44 were disrupted (ended in separation, divorce or annulment) within 10 years.” It goes in to say lifelong chance is 40 something percent.

I fit the demographics of the groups that have fewer divorces, and in turn I’m surrounded by people who also fit that, so for my personal experience it doesn’t feel like everyone is getting a divorce, but of course I know plenty of people who have been divorced. It’s just the majority of the people who I know are still married to their first spouse. More than one of my divorced friends has been divorced twice.