Yes

As an outsider looking in, with no bias or political leaning of any kind, I can see plainly, without fear of contradiction, Bernie doesn’t have a hope in hell of beating Trump!
No amount of hope is going to change that.

I don’t think so. I think the Dems need way more moderate votes than Bernie and his more progressive views can count on.

I doubt it. I think it would be really close though, only because of the anyone but Trump voters who will not skip voting this time, and those who voted for Trump before and have flipped.

Certainly.

I can’t call it. There are Republicans I know who are disgusted with Trump and would vote for someone like Klobucher but not Sanders or Warren. Then there are young people who may stay home if a progressive candidate is nominated. I don’t know how it will play out and am truly afraid. Right now, I wish Adam Schiff were running.

No. If the Dems nominate him, Trump wins again.

I’m a democrat and I wouldn’t vote for Sanders.

@elbanditoroso I have to say, I think that would be very foolish. I think that all Dems have to rally around whomever is picked and vote for the good of the world and our children.

@canidmajor “I don’t think so. I think the Dems need way more moderate votes than Bernie and his more progressive views can count on.”

Maybe someone like Hillary Clinton? Excellent political instincts!

@elbanditoroso: “I’m a democrat and I wouldn’t vote for Sanders.”

I think this is the most honest answer.

The problem with playing this “electability” game is that it really just becomes an expression of our personal support for a a candidate and her/his positions.

We can try to go by the polls – both nationally (useless) and individual states (due to electoral college, unfortunately) – and we can get a clear answer: yes, he is “electable”. But this is not the definitive answer either. Polls often skew older due to high amounts of landlines. And a candidate that has such overwhelming support of people under 35 (Sanders) depends on youth turnout. As with 2016, the polls often underestimated Sanders’ support. Also, it’s worth noting that the polls consistently showed Sanders doing far better against Trump than Clinton, yet the Democrats chose the riskier candidate.

Rather than try to guess who can beat Trump, it might make sense to focus on supporting a candidate that fights for policies and positions you support.

@gorillapaws I don’t know you well enough to be able to tell if you are being snide to me, but I suspect so. Not sure why. I didn’t state a personal preference (or not) for any candidate, I simply expressed a fairly well thought out and widely discussed (not necessarily here, I have lots of people I talk to on both sides of the aisle IRL) opinion. I know a number of conservatives who would vote for a more moderate dem candidate, but would not vote for Sanders.

@hmmmmmm One can do both with eyes open.

Unfortunately, I don’t think Bernie can win. I can’t stand the thought of 4 more years of trump, and I will vote for whoever is trumps opponent, but I don’t think he can get the republicans who don’t like trump to vote for him.

Frankly, it is nonsensical to think you could convince any meaningful number of republicans to to vote for a Democrat, and it makes absolutely no difference whatsoever, who ends up as the nominee.
Almost all of them will either vote for agent orange again, or abstain, before they give their vote to a dem.
It is folly to compromise and dilute your values, in a useless attempt to draw voters away from drumpf.
Did not work in 16, will not work now, either.

@ragingloli With all due respect, and there is a lot for you, I don’t think you can know all that is going on in this country. Nobody can. I was told recently that a staunch Republican I know will vote for Klobucher but not Sanders or Warren. I’m not saying that means we should go that way, I’m saying that we don’t know who will get out more votes or what constituents are most important. And I distrust anyone who is sure about what will happen.

@janbb
Great, that is one guy. That is why I said “meaningful number”.
Furthermore, there is no guarantee that he would actually do as he claims, come election time.
And for that one guy, how many more would you then lose?
Remember that last time, when the DNC sabotaged Sanders and made Hillary the nominee, quite a few democratic voters got disgusted, and proceeded to not vote at all, or worse, vote for drumpf out of spite.

Bernie could win if the right does not turn out to vote and the left does. There is enough discord on the left though to keep their numbers from showing up as well. At this point I see Trump winning again. I suspect voter will turnout to be dismal.

I am not convinced that we have “free and fair” elections anymore.

Certainly not when you consider “fairness” of media intervention.

Sanders is too far left to win. Trump would beat Sanders in a landslide.

@elbanditoroso So, would you not vote for the top spot? Or, actually cast a vote for Trump?

I think Sanders could win the Democratic nomination. I think it’s unlikely that he will beat Trump, but not impossible. Trump won (despite all other claims) largely because of working class voters in swing states. Hillary did not appeal to these voters. Sanders could potentially win them over, but it remains to be seen.

I think if Sanders wins the nomination, he should do a small pivot and talk about being realistic about what can be done to “move his agenda” and emphasize a focus on being fiscally sound. That he has a direction he wants the country to move in, but it still takes incremental steps. Then the people afraid of him might in the end jump on board.

IMO Bernie is the ONLY Democratic candidate that can beat Trump. It’s why Trump is secretly very frightened of running against Bernie. Biden would get destroyed by Trump. The guy can barely string together a coherent sentence these days, and this crap with his son getting paid to be a board member on a Ukrainian Energy company stinks to high-hell even if it’s not technically illegal. The other primary candidates (including Bernie) are too polite to attack Biden’s family, but Trump certainly won’t hold back (no matter how hypocritical it is). Also don’t forget that Biden does this creepy thing where he sniffs the hair of little girls.

Bernie beats Trump by the widest margin in all of the polling (as he did back in 2016) and he has the highest favorability rating of all other candidates. He is the most trusted candidate on Heathcare and the Environment. Bernie’s record has been incredibly prescient for decades. He was supporting gay rights WAY before it was mainstream, marching in protest for civil rights, racial equality, voting against wars, the bankruptcy bill, and he was the only Senator running to have opposed all of Trump’s military budget increases.

@canidmajor “I simply expressed a fairly well thought out and widely discussed… opinion”

It’s being discussed by the same people who were so certain that Clinton was more electable than Sanders, despite the polling to the contrary. It’s absolutely maddening that these people have an ounce of credibility left.

Here’s the deal, there aren’t enough “Whole Foods Republicans” to matter. If the Dems put up another centrist, neoliberal, Hillary 2.0, then the exact same thing will happen as in 2016. People stay home. Dems will get slaughtered in the Rust belt (again) which is where the 2020 general election will be won and lost. The people making this argument are forgetting that nearly half of all eligible voters don’t bother to show up. For every “on the fence” Republican you manage to convert, there’s going to be dozens of potential non-voters out there that will stay home. Bernie has the best chance to win independents, and traditionally low-turnout populations that feel abandoned by the Democratic party. Also don’t forget that Bernie is good at converting Trump voters. Sanders had the crowd cheering at the Fox News townhall.

If you look at the pivot counties, Bernie crushes it. Just based on donations alone he is much more popular in these crucial counties that voted for Obama and then went for Trump in 2016:

from back in August:
Sanders: 33,185 donors—81,841 donations
Biden: 12,040 donors—19,885 donations
Warren: 13,674 donors—26,298 donations
Buttigieg: 14,294 donors—23,320 donations

Another point to consider that even if Democrats somehow managed to eek out a win (by some miracle) with a more moderate candidate like Biden, Buttidgege, etc. who are those crossover Republican voters going to vote for on their state/local/congress/senate races? I don’t think Biden would even be able to nominate a Supreme Court Justice to replace a Ginsburg if the Senate doesn’t flip. The best Dems could hope for is pushing through a moderate Republican compromise Justice.

If Bernie is in the general, not only will he decimate Trump, but he’s going to have a major impact on turning out voters. This is going to result in a tidal wave of Democrats winning at all levels of government. This happened with Obama in 2008. You had big turnout from people who usually stay home, including young and minority voters.

@gorillapaws Will you vote for anyone but Trump in the end?

Of course he does.

@JLeslie No.

After the DNC cheated the primary (as described by the former DNC Chair herself), I decided that I won’t vote for Corporate Dems anymore. If they take corporate money then I can’t trust them.

It’s the same reason why you don’t negotiate with terrorists. Yeah it’s probably gut-wrentching to watch a terrorist murder a little girl, but if you start giving in to demands, a lot more little girls will be murdered in the long run. If we allow the Democratic party to be controlled by corporations and billionaires that are effectively ensuring that no progressive change is ever passed and are willing to rig the election and disenfranchise their own voters to do so, then Democrats will continue to lose the working class support to apathy, and faux populists on the right like Trump that scapegoat minorities and immigrants for working class economic hardships.

WHOA, THERE, Nellie! The process hasn’t really begun yet. Let’s see who rises to the top in about June (or, at least, Super Tuesday) before proclaiming some leading individual.

@gorillapaws I’ll say this only once but so the people in the back of the room can hear it. Deciding not to vote out of some litmus test of purity in this election is a sign of white privilege while minorities are being deported and their children taken away and abused in concentration camps. If you have not worked to change the system and succeeded, this is the hand we are dealt and your purity test means you are complicit.

Yell and scream all you want, that is the truth as I see it. Will stop following now. It hurts me to my core that there are concentration camps in the country I live in.

@janbb I think there would be concentration camps in any country you might live in.

@janbb: “Deciding not to vote out of some litmus test of purity in this election is a sign of white privilege while minorities are being deported and their children taken away and abused in concentration camps.”

This reversing the argument about litmus tests, purity, and white privilege against the left has gone on for decades. It’s likely we’ve all heard this before, and it’s very obvious what kind of game that is.

If Democrats are suddenly upset about deportations and all of the [fill in bad things Trump has done] starting in 2016, this calls into question why they were unconcerned before Trump. We needn’t rehash how awful Obama and the Democrats have been, how unpopular they are, and how they abandoned the working class and held everyone hostage while setting up the conditions for Trump. We don’t even need to rehash how they wanted Trump to run and worked to get him elected by rigging the system.

The appeals to so-called never-Trump Republicans (that hardly exist) is absurd. You’re saying that these people matter over the nearly 50% of the country that doesn’t vote because they have been marginalized and correctly see that the political process doesn’t speak to them. Why can’t we try to reach them? We already spent 2016 trying to win never-Trump Republicans by running a monster against him.

Additionally, only 27% of the country identifies as a Democrat, and 28% identify as Republican. When people speak about Democrats voting blue no matter what, they’re not speaking to me. I’ve never been a registered Democrat.

People who support Bernie Sanders have more at stake. This isn’t some new-found political consciousness that appeared after 2016 and only involves concern about immigration policies that frankly were inhumane during the previous administration. This is life and death. This is about the survival of the species and the future of our children. To turn it around as though not voting for a corporate mouthpiece = “white privilege” is obscene…and transparent.

I will be voting for Bernie Sanders in the primary and the general. If those who have jettisoned principles and are merely looking for “electability” are concerned about losing Bernie Sanders supporters, take this into consideration.

@janbb The reason why we have concentration camps in this country is because people thought moderate Democrats was more electable than a populist vs. Trump, despite the polling (and what people like me were saying at the time). Now we have those same people telling us the same thing.

You want to wag your finger at me and imply that I’m indifferent to the suffering at the border due to my privilege. How fucking dare you. You couldn’t be further from the truth. It absolutely breaks my heart, but I have to not only worry about those kids suffering RIGHT NOW, but the BILLIONS of kids who are not going to have a sustainable planet to grow up on.

If we’re going to keep electing Democrats who are backed by the fossil fuel industry, then not only are those kids that you’re so worried about fucked, but so is every other kid on the fucking planet. Billions of kids is a bigger problem than thousands of kids. It’s a math problem. If you keep voting for the lesser of two evils, you’re only ever going to get evil. And believe me, it can get much worse than Trump.

@gorillapaws Let’s get straight Trump by Executive Order is removing the powers of the EPA and Solar energy! He the one with his hand in the fossil fuels piggy bank and no one in the government know where he getting his money.

Wink wink ya thunk it might include fossil fuel money??

@Tropical_Willie Trump is a monster. He is evil and will harm the planet.

Electing a nicer monster who will harm the planet a little more slowly, but still totally fuck it up in the end, is not a victory (especially when doing so guarantees you’ll perpetuate the lesser-of-two-evils game indefinitely). Make no mistake, the Democratic establishment has been infected by people who are pushing policies that will ruin the planet and the country. These people are buying out both the Republicans and the Democrats.

Bernie can certainly win against trump and especially for that reason exactly that he is up against trump!

Democrats, indies and a few conscientious Republicans had had enough of the human trash at the WH.

Yes he can beat Trump and others have stated why. @ragingloli is also correct. Turning Republicans is not what is needed. Energizing the youth vote, which is very large, is what is needed. We also need support of Independents. Bernie is a favorite among these people, many of whom might stay home if Bernie is not the nominee. I live in a large college town and Bernie has overwhelming support here. I follow people on FB who are on the ground in Iowa as I type this, going door to door speaking to the people, and there is a surprising number of people willing to vote for Bernie.

A moderate is not what we need to beat Trump.

The right will scare any fence sitters by saying a vote for Bernie is just one step closer to all out communism, those fence sitters and the right that don’t even actually like Trump will vote for him just because of that.
And from what I have seen Bernie is actually in it for the little guy, and the wealthy will have none of that.
Bernie is a thousand times smarter than Trump,but he doesn’t resinate with good ole boys, and red necks, so I say this again with a sad face I don’t think he can beat Trump, BUT GOD I hope I am wrong.

Well, gosh, @gorillapaws, if I had known you were involved in the conversations I have had with people I outdone have bought you a coffee. Next time, do identify yourself.

@janbb is right, there is a lot of white privilege talking here. I’m out, too.

(eye roll)

@SQUEEKY2 ”...right will scare any fence sitters by saying a vote for Bernie is just one step closer to all out communism…”

The right called Obama a socialist, they’ll call Bernie a socialist and would also call Klobuchar a socialist if she had enough votes to matter (she doesn’t). Watch Bernie talk to the Trump voter. Listen to this Fox News Townhall clip at the very end. It’s mind-blowing how Bernie is working the crowd of conservatives. That’s why Trump is afraid of him.

Populism is… popular. Bernie can hit Trump on Social Securty, Biden can’t. Bernie can hit Trump on his trade deals Biden can’t. Trump can attack Biden on his Bankruptcy bill. If Dems run a Moderate, Trump will once-again run to the LEFT of the Democratic candidate and he will win.

@canidmajor The faux outrage is pathetic. There are legit problems with white privilege in this country. Disingenuously weaponizing the “white privilege” label against people who are fighting against the corporate takeover of the Democratic party and for social, economic and racial justice is gross. Something like 45k Americans die every year from lack of health insurance (These are disproportionately racial minorities). I could just as easily wag my finger at you and say that by opposing the only candidate pushing Medicare for All, you’re exercising your “white privilege” with your complete indifference to their suffering. See how that works?

According to this poll

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/25/us/politics/democratic-iowa-poll-sanders.html

It doesn’t seem so. In fact, none of the candidates can beat Trump, according to this poll. Now remember, some of the races seem close, but this is a NYT poll…it is automatically biased in favor of the Dems. And they still can’t come up with numbers to beat him.

But that’s only if you believe polls. I don’t. I agree with this one, but polls are inherently bogus.

@gorillapaws Your take on Sanders being the only one who can win doesn’t resonate with me, because I think you don’t understand the majority of Democrats nor many Independent voters. You are one of those die hard Bernie supporters who possibly only see through your own lense. We all have our perspectives that influence our opinions and I’m not trying to be antagonistic, I just think we all have some blind spots.

Every vote will count to beat Trump. If you want Trump to lose then I hope you support getting Democrats to vote for whichever candidate makes it through.

@JLeslie: “I just think we all have some blind spots.”

What data do you use to make your evaluations? Are you going with your gut feeling? People you talk to? Polling?

If people are going to go down the road of trying to predict “electability”, it might make sense to declare their methodology.

I think many people just go with their own political beliefs when declaring who they feel is most electable. However, do you think that @gorillapaws, who often fills his posts with actual data, is just going with his gut?

@gorillapaws the monster is REVERSING Obama’s EPA.

Wasn’t Obama a Democrat? ??

I’m missing your logic or lack of same.

@JLeslie ”...I just think we all have some blind spots.”

I agree that we all have blind spots and are subject to bias. I’m not immune from those. The big difference is that I was exactly right back in the 2016 election, and most of the people chastising me now were exactly wrong back then too, for exactly the same reasons.

I’m a data guy (along with many other things at work). As part of my job I do business intelligence and data analytics for our private outpatient surgical center. My focus for 2020 is on the potential voters that will decide the general election (and those people don’t live in Alabama or California). They live in pivot counties in the Rust Belt. They have income that’s below the national median household income (in many cases significantly so). They’re from counties that were solidly middle class that have decayed into the lower classes due to automation, outsourcing, abandonment of unions by the Democratic party, a lack of investment into those communities (austerity) by Democrats and the transition of the Democratic party away from FDR New Deal populism to corporate Neo-liberalism (most especially) since Reagan. This is the same working-class demographic that loves Bernie, hates Biden because of NAFTA and his Bankruptcy bill, are mistrustful of Warren and Buttigieg because of Ivy-league elitism/trust issues, and are completely indifferent to Klobuchar because Klobuchar is indifferent to them (she doesn’t have a single proposal that I’m aware of that would stop the decline in their lives, communities and counties, let alone reverse it).

You’re absolutely right that I am a die hard Bernie supporter. I’m a die hard Bernie supporter primarily because I think he’s the best chance to beat Trump by a country mile. The guy managed to spend his whole life dedicated to politics and doing the right thing without taking bribes, caving to lobbyist pressure, getting involved in sex scandals, or other crazy stuff that’s so common with career politicians. He’s fundamentally good, honest, and trustworthy with an amazing voting record that goes back decades. Hell, Bernie even marched on Washington with Dr. King for crying out loud. Not many politicians can claim that. I don’t think he’s perfect. I think he’s WAY too soft on the other primary candidates (and was way too soft on Clinton too). That said, I think he’s once-in-a-generation type of political figure. I’m terrified that the same idiots in 2016 who convinced everyone that Clinton was more electable than Sanders will succeed in playing the same game over again this time.

I think at this point he is the only one who could win because it’s mostly his supporters (and Yang) who will NOT vote blue no matter who. They are holding Democrats hostage; it’s their way or no way.

I supported Bernie in 2016, but 2020 is not even close to similar to that year. We’ve all lived through 3+ years of Trump and a lot of moderates and Republicans don’t want to vote for Trump, but they will if the Dem nominee is too far left. I also think Bernie is too old and won’t make it 4 years. I will not be voting for him this time. The country cannot survive another 4 years of Trump. The environment can’t, the most vulnerable in the country can’t, and neither can the rest of the world. I’m putting my ideology aside in service of the greater good, no matter how fucked up the process is. I live in California. We fight Trump at every turn and my life won’t change much, but I’m doing it anyway.

And even if Bernie did win, he won’t be able to get much through the legislature. It will be 4 years of nothing happening.

@tinyfaery “And even if Bernie did win, he won’t be able to get much through the legislature. It will be 4 years of nothing happening.”

If Bernie wins, then there was a big voter turnout. If there is a big voter turnout, then stuff will be able to be passed.

Not unless you replace quite a few seats in the legislature (even Democrats) with far left candidates.

@tinyfaery That’s a reasonable point, but I believe they’re going to fall in line just like Republicans fell in line behind Trump. Republican politicians are terrified of Trump labeling them disloyal. I think Bernie’s policies are so popular that Democrats know that obstructing something like a Medicare for All would be political suicide.

@gorillapaws I do feel the same as you that Bernie has integrity. I think he is one of our most honest politicians out there.

I’m still curious to see if @elbanditoroso will be voting for Bernie if he is the nominee. @elbanditoroso would be one of the Democrats I was talking about who don’t feel comfortable voting for Bernie. 4 years ago Bernie made me nervous, too extreme, but a friend pointed out to me that he wouldn’t be able to get everything done that he talks about, but it would at least shift the policy more in the direction she would like to see. I saw her point with that.

Call me old fashioned, but I’m not totally on board with making America into a Nordic country, and I don’t trust politicians here enough to not make me a little fearful of socialism turning the wrong direction economically. I say that, but know that I am on board with many social systems, but I think they need to be tweaked a lot. I’m even not against the idea of a UBI.

I just think the gung-ho socialists in the country really aren’t looking at all of the things that can go wrong. They don’t talk enough about safeguards and concerns for me. The people who are struggling in the Midwest very well might vote for Bernie, because he promises to give them a fair shot in our country, and take some of the wealth and control away from those at the top right now. I have warned republicans about this for years. If you treat the masses like crap they will fight back with their vote, and vote for the candidate who promises then the most. I told them if you don’t want Chavez then raise them minimum wage, don’t overwork employees, make education K-12 equal and good, etc. I thought it would be a socialist, but we got Trump before socialism.

I think you mentioned young people; they would likely be part of my gung-ho idealists.

It really comes back to integrity. The countries that do well have integrity in their governments, and the countries that go to shit have corrupt governments. The overall culture of the population matters too from what I can tell. The Nordic countries groom their children to think in terms of society at large rather than the individual.

So… I don’t think Bernie himself believes half the promises coming out of his mouth can be accomplished. I doubt he’ll even give most of it anything more than some lip service once in office. He has shown this by doing exactly that his entire political career. If he pulls some miracle and ousts Trump I would not get your hopes up that much will change for the better.

@ARE_you_kidding_me ”He has shown this by doing exactly that his entire political career.”

Bernie is known as the amendment king. He got more amendments passed than any other representative in his 16 years in the House.

Some key endorsements for Bernie who represent the working class:

APWU – American Postal Workers Union, representing 200,000

NNU – National Nurses United, representing 150,000

NUHW – National Union of Healthcare Workers, representing 15,000 (co-endorsement with Elizabeth Warren)

UE – United Electrical, Radio and Machine Workers of America, representing 35,900

AFL-CIO – UNITE HERE: Local 11 (AZ, CA), representing 30,000 (co-endorsement with Elizabeth Warren)

AFT – American Federation of Teachers: Vermont (VT), representing 5,000

BIDG – The Boston Independent Drivers Guild (MA)

CCEA – Clark County Educational Association, representing 19,000 (NV)

CWA – Communications Workers of America: Local 9119 (CA), representing 17,000

IBEW – International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers: Local 1634 (IA)

IBT – International Brotherhood of Teamsters: Pennsylvania Federation Brotherhood of Maintenance of Way Employes Division (PA)

SEIU – Service Employees International Union: Local 1984, representing 10,000 (NH)

UFCW – United Food and Commercial Workers International Union: Local 230 (IA) and Local 21 (WA), representing 46,000

UTLA – United Teachers Los Angeles, representing 35,000 (CA)

UURWAW – United Union of Roofers, Waterproofers and Allied Workers: Local 36 (CA)

He can beat Trump in the important swing states.

I think he would make an exciting president. I hope that he doesn’t have any health complications. Like another heart attack.
I hope that Canada follows his lead, and makes university free.

You are all welcome to look up the endorsements for Biden, Warren and Trump. I laughed at how few there are compared to Bernie’s.

@Jonsblond Don’t forget the American College of Physicians just endorsed Medicare for All.

@JLeslie “I’m not totally on board with making America into a Nordic country”

I understand where you’re coming from with your concerns. I don’t see Bernie trying to make the US into Norway. I see it more like Bernie trying to return the Democratic Party back to it’s New Deal FDR roots.

Corporate money and influence has been “boiling the frog” of the Democratic Party for decades now. The top marginal income tax rate used to be as high as 90%, there used to be free college options in the US, we used to have protections for Unions, safeguards against monopolies and banks using deposits for investing. We had regulations to protect against the media being monopolized by the powerful. Bankruptcy protections have been largely decimated. The tax burden has shifted more heavily to the working class through payroll taxes that are capped for the wealthy. The tax brackets have been compressed. As a result a massive chunk of the nation’s wealth that used to be distributed across the population has become concentrated in the hands of a frighteningly small number of hands.

This country has systematically undone much of the hard fought regulations that were put in place by the depression generation who lived through the destruction that unchecked capitalism rained down upon this country. Those lessons were forgotten or ignored by the modern Democratic Party who have become dependent on big money and complicit in these betrayals of the working class at the behest of their donors. And the corporate-owned media (i.e. AT&T, Comcast, Viacom, Disney, and Fox) has been gaslighting the public into thinking that a return to the New Deal is somehow a radical departure from America’s past towards some Maoist/Stalinist fiction.

The Gen x, and Millenial generations are struggling. They haven’t benefited from the opportunities and protections the Boomers had. This chart/article really sums up the situation brilliantly.

“baby boomers — those born between 1946 and 1964 — collectively owned 21 percent of the nation’s wealth by the time their generation hit a median age of 35 in 1990.

”Generation X (born from 1965 to 1980) came of age during the era of wage stagnation and growing inequality ushered in by the 1970s and ’80s. When the typical Gen Xer reached 35 in 2008, his or her share of the nation’s wealth was just 9 percent, less than half that of boomers at a comparable point in life.”

”Millennials haven’t hit the 35 mark yet — that won’t happen until about 2023 — but their financial situation is relatively dire. They own just 3.2 percent of the nation’s wealth. To catch up to Gen Xers, they’d need to triple their wealth in just four years. To reach boomers, their net worth would need a sevenfold jump.”

On top of that lack of opportunity, we’re inheriting their debt, pollution and neglected infrastructure from previous generations. The American dream is becoming more of a fantasy than an achievable goal for many.

For me this is a fight about restoring the promise of the American Dream. What makes America so special is the idea of equality of opportunity. If everyone is given an equal shot then you’ll have the best people rise to the top. You’ll have a meritocracy. The problem is that successful rich people don’t want their kids to have to compete on an equal playing field. They want public schools funded from local property taxes, so they can ensure their kids have an edge and then wag their fingers at kids in shitty neighborhoods with terrible schools and blame them for not trying hard enough. They’re not serious about ensuring that all kids have the nutrition they need so they can learn effectively. They don’t want other people’s kids to have after school programs. They want them to fall into the school-prison pipeline. This is about rewarding inherited wealth. Is it any wonder that we elected the heir to a real-estate empire that has consistently failed at business his whole life?

For me, taking equality of opportunity seriously and all of the implications that logically follow from that is the best way to improve America. We need to start investing in the American people again.

Take a look at this fan-made ad with Bernie and MLK about economic populism. I think it’s powerful and illustrates this movement is more about going back to the party’s FDR roots and continuing MLK’s vision than emulating a foreign nation.

@gorillapaws The problem is Republicans don’t “hear” Bernie’s plan that way, and I’d say even most Democrats don’t. Most people don’t really understand all the intricacies of a social plan or know what questions to ask or be worried about. Most people just want to avoid what scares them. If they are having trouble providing for their families, that scares them, they want a way out of that situation. If they believe socialism is unAmerican or even against God’s wishes, that scares them.

We all have different fears, most of us aren’t very well versed on different types of governments and different economic systems. The politicians use this as a tool to manipulate (I could be nice and say persuade) the masses. My point is I think people like you tend to not know how things sound to the people so completely dissimilar to themselves, although I do respect that you like data. I’d even go as far to say that people who love Trump, it doesn’t even matter if we understand that group, because we can’t likely change their minds, but there are of course people who flip depending on the election.

Even if we can’t change the people who love Trump, I don’t want to offend or terrify them. That’s been my point for the last 3 years. Many Democrats think I’m wrong and don’t give a shit if they offend them. I’m not talking about WS Trumpers, they can go to hell. I mean the Average Trump supporter.

The Democrats don’t need Republican voters to win. Trump had 3 million fewer votes against a very unpopular candidate and turnout was low. We need a candidate who excites people, especially the age groups that @gorillapaws speaks of. The ones who are struggling economically. Bernie speaks to these voters. Progressives won big in 2018. Turnout was large. These same people will show up in 2020.

Sorry for the double post. I missed the edit window.

I was just watching Bill Maher and he made a good point. Bill has been a fan of Amy K. but tonight he said he’s warming to the idea of Bernie. Why? He says: “Because Bernie has an army just as Trump does.” (Not verbatim.)

Many of you underestimate the amount of people who support him or those who are willing to support him.

Something else I find interesting is Michael Moore’s opinion. He warned us all that Trump would win in 2016 and he was right. Michael understands the people in the Midwest who supported Trump because he speaks to these people who are struggling. He doesn’t sit in cafes with retired boomers. He now says Bernie can win. I believe him.

Well, @Fluther, you have convinced me.
I will vote against Trump this year.

@Patty_Melt Finally you have seen the light! If the Dems put up a 3-legged dog as their candidate, we should vote for it! After all it doesn’t matter what its platform is, as long as it is hate Trump!

@Jonsblond I don’t think we are underestimating how many people support Bernie. I especially don’t underestimate that most Democrats will fall in line and vote for him to beat Trump, unlike a lot of Bernie voters who wouldn’t do it last time, and some still won’t do it on principle.

Hillary was unpopular to you. Many Democrats had wanted her since the first time she ran for president.

I’ll add young people can be rash, and not fully understand and consider all consequences before making decisions. It doesn’t mean they are necessarily wrong in what they decide to do or how they vote, but just something to keep in mind.

@seawulf575 Do you really think the Democrats are all that stupid?? If they were, as you implied, there would be no need for so many Democratic contenders to vie for the White House.

@kritiper yes, I really do believe they are that stupid, but not all Dems, just the DNC. If you look at their candidates, most Democrats don’t even like their policies. Their own people. They (the moderate Dems) don’t like the party swinging so far to the left. The DNC doesn’t care. They believe they can put whomever they wish and all they have to do is promise anything and everything and say “Hate Trump” and they will win. So yeah, I believe the DNC is that stupid. The current elected Dems have just spent 3 years doing absolutely nothing but obstructing and wasting time and money on witch hunts. That isn’t what we elect these fools for. And yes, I hold that same opinion of Repubs…don’t do your job you deserve to get booted out.

@seawulf575 I know plenty of conservatives who didn’t like Trump, and don’t like Trump, they think he is crass, immoral, and makes many bad decisions, and they voted for him in the end.

They are just politicians, after all…

@JLeslie I wasn’t saying she was unpopular because that’s how I felt. That was the general consensus at the time. Voter turnout was low. People didn’t show up because they didn’t like Trump or Hillary. And this blaming Bernie supporters needs to stop. Not all Bernie supporters are Democrats. Democrats don’t own our votes.

@JLeslie I’m one of them. I have stated repeatedly that he is brash, blustery, and his incessant tweeting is childish (in my opinion). But he was not a political insider. He does have experience leading large corporations. And he was not Hillary. Now, compare what was then with what is now. He still isn’t the political insider…they hate him. He has actually done some good things for this country despite the obstruction from the Dems and their incessant witch hunts. And none of the Dem candidates are any better than Hillary was. At this point I would probably vote for him again. I might consider Tulsi Gabbard since she impresses me, but she has done the unforgivable, she crossed swords with Hillary and she dared to voice an opinion that wasn’t the one the DNC wanted her to have. She will never get the nomination because of those two things…she’s too much of an outsider for the Dems.

Sounds like a lot of HATRED COMING FROM YOU @seawulf575 thats sad.
After all being a creature of logic and only wanting right wing facts spewing the left is all hate and now it seems like a lot of hate coming from you against anyone who doesn’t see the right wing way of life through your rose coloured glasses.
I do hope Bernie can pull it off,it will be fun to watch you haters combust from your hate.

What hatred? I laid out exact reasons for my choices. I even stated I would consider a Democrat, but laid out why that person would not be the nominee. Funny that seems like hatred to you.

Read my lips…..NOBODY IS GOING TO BEAT PRESIDENT TRUMP!

Man I hope you’re wrong,and we can’t see your lips but I do get your meaning theres more tax cuts to give to the uber rich,there is more poor people to kick off food stamps,there is a recession to start plus a war or two.
More allies to insult,and more people from south of the border to cage like animals.
Plus the world needs a few thousand more insane tweets from an old guy who sounds like he is in full dementia.
Plus I have no faith in the American voter so as sad as it may be I do fear you are right.

@Jonsblond I don’t think it’s all the fault of the Bernie supporters who wouldn’t vote for Hillary, or who didn’t vote at all, it’s a combination of many types of voters. Bernie supporters, the black vote, apathetic voters, Green Party voters, every vote mattered. Since you were one of the people who was brutal towards Hillary supporters, and I do mean brutal, and if I remember correctly sat out voting in the end, I’m not surprised that you are protective of the loyal Bernie supporters. I think you were in IL so your vote didn’t matter. Or, were you in IN? Then it did really matter.

The thing is those who were brutal helped influence other minds to be die hard loyal. The peer pressure matters. People are too easily manipulated.

My cousin is also in circles who were die hard Bernie supporters, and incredibly negative about Hillary. I saw her friends on Facebook 3 years ago, they were like piranhas if someone on a thread pointed out why they thought Hillary was a good candidate. My guess is my cousin and most of her close friends didn’t vote for Hillary in the end, and part of it I blame on peer pressure.

There are Democrats like my dad who thought Bernie was great. My dad still believes strongly in socialized medicine and free university education. He also thought Hillary was great and came with incredible experience. He liked them both. Some people easily embraced them both.

Brutal? Lol. The DNC played dirty. Apparently Democrats are against cheating unless it helps them, which is what happened with Bernie. If being opposed to corruption is brutal, then so be it,

I didn’t sit out. I voted for the Green Party to vote against corruption. My vote in Illinois didn’t count. Not that it’s any business of anyone here.

Again, Democrats aren’t entitled to anyone’s vote. I have voted for three different parties in my lifetime.

If anyone was brutal it was the Hillary supporters giving everyone grief who didn’t vote for Hillary. Just look at how brutal some of them are being on this very thread.

Yeah, it’s been shown that no amount of people who voted for non-Trump non-Clinton in 2016 could have changed the result if they voted Clinton. Especially not in the states that went to Clinton.

Non-voters, on the other hand, could have made a huge difference.

Clinton lose because of how she and the DNC ran their campaign, including the primary. They dialed it in, didn’t give more than lip service to actual popular progressive ideas, etc. They did not earn enough votes to beat a preposterous idiot scumbag that even most of the Republicans didn’t really like in 2016, a record year for negative approval ratings for both big-party “candidates”, who still have negative approval ratings.

Who did have a positive approval rating in 2016, and still does? Sanders.

It’s sad. Sanders grew up in a working class family and he’s always represented the community. He supports all minorities and has a lifelong record to prove it, yet Democrats are doing everything to discredit him and his supporters.

Michael Moore at the Bernie rally tonight:

“This is what we’re so used to on our side. Where people that are supposed to be on our side end up being for the people with the money. How many times have we seen where our candidate’s number one contributor is Goldman Sachs? Enough of this folks, this is why we lose. Even when we win, we lose… we have to say that this is wrong!...

They didn’t change the rules so Corey Booker or Julian Castro can stay on the stage. .. but for the white billionaire they can just dispense with the rules.

This is what all of us have had to deal with our whole lives. There’s one set of rules for us, and another set of rules for the rich.

We have ONE candidate who will not tolerate this. Who will not put up with this. Who will speak out against it and fight for us! All of us!...

You know why they changed the rules. Bernie is ahead.”

Number of states in which _________ has the most donors:
Bernie Sanders: 46
Joe Biden: 1 (his home state)
Elizabeth Warren: 1 (her home state)
Pete Buttigieg: 1 (his home state)
Amy Klobuchar: 1 (her home state)

Estimated number of unique individuals who donated to the primary campaigns for Democratic POTUS candidate for 2020:

Sanders: 1.4 million
Warren: 892,000
Buttegieg: 741,000
Biden: 451,000
Yang: 397,000
Klobuchar: 227,000

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/02/01/us/politics/democratic-presidential-campaign-donors.html

It would be wonderful if Bernie actually pulled it off, but I think big money isn’t going to allow it.

^ The Democratic party and corporate media are trying their best to stop Sanders. They would rather lose to Trump than to lose control of their party. This is what they chose in 2016 and they’re doing it again.

@hmmmmmm Sources please for “The Democratic party and corporate media are trying their best to stop Sanders.” Or it is just your opinion?

@Tropical_Willie
John Kerry overheard discussing possible 2020 bid amid concern of ‘Sanders taking down the Democratic Party’

DNC members discuss rules change to stop Sanders at convention

Also: It Should Be Easy to Defeat Trump, But Corporate Democrats Look Ready and Willing to Blow It – Trump should be the most defeatable president in history.
by Ralph Nader

Let me get this straight @hmmmmmm you have two accounts !!

^Zaku answered for @hmmmmmm. Two separate people. I would have shared sources for @hmmmmmm as well if I hadn’t been working tonight.

A post from Michael Moore today:

Iowa Day 12 on the Journey for Bernie. This state & its people have profoundly moved me. So many good hearts & kind souls who struggle to get by from paycheck to paycheck. All they want is a fair shake. A decent chance. What they get every 4 years are empty promises from both parties.

Tomorrow, there are many good Dems running in the Iowa Caucus. According to the polls, four of them can beat Trump. Those same polls show that one of them can CRUSH Trump. Bernie is the Trump Stopper. His rallies here have been the largest. The most volunteers. The most donors (avg $18). The highest approval rating of any candidate.

The message is clear: People want Bernie’s (and the developed world’s) Medicare for All health plan. They believe Bernie will fight for women to be paid the same as men. They know Bernie won’t stop until the minimum wage is doubled. All this and more. People have had it. They want real change. Now.

Trump is throwing 700,000 poor and working people off food stamps! The hatred and bile that flows from the White House each day must cease! Is Trump who we are? NO! Let’s vote for the candidate whose platform is built on love & compassion. The candidate who will inspire millions of non-voters to vote! I’ve seen it out here. All kinds of Iowans telling me they’re voting for Bernie. Tomorrow is the day! Good luck to all in this generous state, whoever your candidate is. Trump’s a goner November 3rd. We’re all in this together.

https://www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/bernie-sanders-leads-trump-all-2020-candidates-in-donations-from-active-duty-troops-946188/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

The Onion‘s great jab at the attempts by the DNC to stop Sanders.