General Question

seawulf575's avatar

Why do some people on Fluther from outside the US so actively try to divide our country?

Asked by seawulf575 (13114points) January 1st, 2021
37 responses
“Great Question” (1points)

I’ve noticed many questions on Fluther posed by people that live outside the US that are dreadfully anti-Trump or anti-conservative. I guess the question I have is why are they so aggressively involved? It isn’t their country and most of Trump’s policies don’t impact them at all. Why are they so adamantly trying to divide our country and stoke hatred? This question is specifically for those that live outside the US that hate Trump.

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elbanditoroso's avatar

Most likely because those people have a clear external view, and can be objective, instead of being intimately involved.

External views are not necessarily wrong views.

zenvelo's avatar

Because for the first time in post war America, the President is actively disrupting diplomatic relations and trade agreements with our allies, and making nice and accommodating to those who go against all that America stood for up until ½0/2017.

So don’t say ”...most of Trump’s policies don’t impact them at all.” The administration’s policies have had far reaching effects on the planet as a whole.

_____'s avatar

Everyone has to deal with US foreign policy, so it’s just as much their business as it is your’s.

Also, “divide our country” and “stoke hated” are nonsense phrases.

mazingerz88's avatar

Dividing the country? Like what Trump has done bigly and continues to do so?

They care about the ideals of American democracy which is being dismantled and degraded by a corrupt, cruel, seditious and treasonous impeached President.

canidmajor's avatar

Personally, I am thrilled that @seawulf575 thinks that the 20 or 30 of us that are regularly active here on fluther have so much influence as to be able to “divide the country”. Now if only I had that much influence on my dog.

elbanditoroso's avatar

@canidmajor I think his question was more of a troll than anything else. He’s sort of taking a back seat to @crazy guy that last month or two.

But that said, why would we want to prevent a non-American from observing and commenting? I read the newspaper and watch TV, and i have plenty to say about Israel’s foreign policy, China’s policies, the idiocy of Brexit, and so on and so forth. Any intelligent and worldly person NEEDS to know what’s going on around the world.

So if a non-American wants to jump in the fray, that’s fine with me.

Jeruba's avatar

I don’t think any of the self-identified non-Americans has posted as much hateful rhetoric as the OP.

(“Trying to divide”? As if it hadn’t happened already?)

Meanwhile, I haven’t seen much talk of unifying and healing coming from the Trumpists.

mazingerz88's avatar

^^No reaching out for healing would ever come from Trumpists. They thrive on malicious and hateful politics.

Pandora's avatar

A more important question is why did we have a President who thrived on dividing the Nation he was supposed to lead? I don’t care what outsiders say but I sure as hell care about what our elected officials do to divide our Nation. And also why did Trump continue to kiss Putins butt despite what our own intel kept telling him? If he had just actually stood up against Putin he wouldn’t have had to endure all the investigations against him. So why did he purposely go through all of that? Hell, all he had to do was not go on TV and say that he fired Comey because of his investigation into Flynn. He could’ve always pardon flynn like he planned too.

stanleybmanly's avatar

Again, not only is domestic criticism of the fool dismissed through the simple minded excuse of “hatred”, but the entirety of the civilized world is now supposedly guilty of Trump hatred? Let’s assume (just for the sake of argument) that the rest of the world took an interest in a visibly psychotic, narcissistic no nothing being placed in control of the most powerful nation on earth. Might their interest be justified? It is the other side of that coin of course which interests me more—a LOT more. Which agents of a foreign government might dedicate great effort, even to the extent of eliminating any possibility of consideration for their own credibility and in the face of undeniable evidence to the contrary, insist that said psychopath is in fact his country’s salvation—the lunatic’s aberrations mere inventions of a biased and hostile press? Look at Trump, then conclude for yourself “what all the fuss is about”. If you conclude it’s hatred which upset Trump, I must conclude that you are stupid! I’m sorry, but there it is. You must be either stupid or dishonest. There is no 3rd choice.

SEKA's avatar

“Everything” the US does affects another country, so I find it somewhat arrogant (although not shocking considering the source) to assume that citizens of other countries have no concern in our politics. I’ve found that “most” of the division came from our commander-in-chief who tried “every” trick in the book to separate us. Yes, some of our “out of country” jellies have asked some of the hardest questions; yet. I’ve never felt they were trying to divide us, just trying to understand what the fuck was going on within our once stable country

Kropotkin's avatar

There’s nothing “dreadful” about being anti-Trump or anti-conservative.

Trump is a conman and sociopath.

Conservatism is an irrationalist ideology that serves elite interests by inculcating ordinary people with the sense that nothing can or should fundamentally change.

It deludes people into emotional attachments around parochialism, nationalism, nativism, and religion.

It is utterly resistant to adapting to a rapidly changing world, and promotes non-existent or exaggerated external threats and fear of outgroups, making it inherently prone to conspiracism and xenophobia.

Conservativism downplays or dismisses anything that rationally requires wholesale changes, because conservatism denies the efficacy of rationalism, and puts its faith in tradionalism and stasis.

It is authoritarian, and highly susceptible to becoming fascism.

Conservatives have no rational response to climate change. Conservatives have made the Covid pandemic far worse than it should have been. Conservatives are leading our civilisation to ruin, while imagining they’re its sole protectors.

Conservatism is an anti-human and destructive ideology, and anyone of sound mind and moral decency should fight it.

seawulf575's avatar

For those of you that believe everything the US does can impact other countries, you are absolutely correct. Yet I don’t see you slamming China or Russia or Germany or England or any other country as much as you do the US. And they have done many, many things that adversely impact the US over the years and continue to do so. Yet you don’t get hatred such as is exhibited against the US and Trump from the conservatives on here and you that hate Trump generally support any other country that impacts us negatively. So foreign policy is a cop-out.

_____'s avatar

@seawulf575: “For those of you that believe everything the US does can impact other countries, you are absolutely correct. Yet I don’t see you slamming China or Russia or Germany or England or any other country as much as you do the US.”

I’m a US citizen, so the actions of the US are my responsibility. I pay for the US to bomb other countries and undermine democracy. So, while I object to other countries’ actions, I am morally responsible for the actions of my country.

@seawulf575: “Yet you don’t get hatred such as is exhibited against the US and Trump from the conservatives on here and you that hate Trump generally support any other country that impacts us negatively. So foreign policy is a cop-out.”

^ Trying to translate this. Cannot.

zenvelo's avatar

@seawulf575 My love of Country and support and defense of the Constitution are exactly why I have been opposed to Trump, the GOP, and their jackbooted thugs parading around as false patriots.

Trump is a traitor, and has committed treasonous acts, but the GOP has stood by and refused to impeach him.

Those of us who supported sanction against Russia and Putin over war crimes in Ukraine, Chechnya, and Crimea saw Trump betray a bipartisan effort to keep his puppet master happy.

Trump’s only loyalty is to his bank account.

seawulf575's avatar

@zenvelo Are you from a foreign country?

seawulf575's avatar

@_____ As you said, you are a citizen of the US. I completely expect you to have a valid say in things in this country. This question is to those from other countries that feel they must intrude on our doings and spread hatred and division in our nation.

zenvelo's avatar

@seawulf575 No. I was born in the United States. So were my parents.

seawulf575's avatar

@zenvelo So a question about why foreign jellies try to interfere in our country really doesn’t apply to you, does it? I fully support you, as a US citizen, having a say in things that go on in our country. But just a curiosity…why don’t you get equally upset when foreign governments screw us over or try to?

_____'s avatar

@seawulf575: “As you said, you are a citizen of the US. I completely expect you to have a valid say in things in this country. This question is to those from other countries that feel they must intrude on our doings and spread hatred and division in our nation.”

Sorry – you’re right. I never finished what I was going to say.

Yes, so I am a citizen of the US, so I (at least in theory) have the ability to change the actions of my government. But the actions of my government happen to be global and quite destructive. So, if I lived in another country, there is approximately 0.00% chance that I have not been subject to the actions of the US.

Therefore, it’s quite reasonable that people around the world look to the US, which is a terrorist state, and attempt to discuss politics with its citizens when they have a chance. And you’re very wrong that people around the world are not attempting to affect local change within their own countries.

I have the most moral responsibility to stop the atrocities that I pay for and approve via my government. That doesn’t stop me from criticizing other governments. But coincidentally, it’s often the case that when I am opposed to the actions of some brutal government, it happens to also be a US ally. And this governments actions are usually made possible via US support.

I can scream about Saudi Arabia all I want. But if my government and my taxes are funding support for its brutal destruction in Yemen, I’d better get my house in order. I have the most chance of affecting change by critiquing US actions.

What you’re attempting to do in your framing here is what was called “whataboutism” before liberals adopted the technique in the past few years.

stanleybmanly's avatar

So let’s ask ourselves, who among us espouses views we might judge hostile to the best interests of THIS country? Who insists (for instance) to the present day that the Russians had little or no interest, let alone involvement in installing our current psychopath? Who prattles endlessly on such preposterous claptrap around Hillary/Obama villainy, or the descendants of slaves as the true enemies of America. And the proof? Why of course it’s the treasonous claim that black lives matter. Who claims we cannot believe what we read in the press or network news excepting of course the jackboot outlets? Who is it that claims while the psychopath vigorously manifests his disorder in front us, that the entire spectacle is but the invention of a biased and hostile media? What would convince such an individual that he might be taken seriously?

zenvelo's avatar

@seawulf575 But I have been vehement that the FBI, CIA, and DOJ should use every available legal means to expose the corruption of the 2016 election by the Russians, which you, in your pleadings, deny fully and have argued that the FBI should not investigate.

Your leader is a traitor, as is Michael Flynn, Manafort, Roger Stone and half the White House staff.

Jeruba's avatar

Some time ago (years), I imagined a time when we might see Russian “peacekeeping” troops on American soil, but I couldn’t picture how that might happen.

Now I can.

JLeslie's avatar

Foreigners who haven’t been in the US, or who haven’t been here in a long time, they only know what the news shows them, social media if they use it, the effect of US decisions on their country and continent, and what Americans tell them. They imagine America to be an unsafe place, many won’t come here for vacation because of it. People who vacation here regularly or live both places love Americans and their perception is different.

Europe is much more knowledgeable and nervous about nationalism. Parts of the American right boast about it. Just that is enough. I think they are afraid a good part of America will follow their leader of choice into the abyss. I see Republicans writing that about Democrats on social media, but that is exactly what the world is afraid of with Republicans.

Remember 9/11? How you felt and maybe still feel when that happened. Europe had buildings and towns destroyed in WWII. Some have parents and grandparents who were Nazis and are very sensitive to the signs of authoritarianism and a populous that puts country before people. Many foreigners are trying to warn us not necessarily divide us. I’m not saying Trump is bombing buildings, I’m only saying Europe remembers in a different way than many Americans. America focuses on we won the war, not how the war happened.

As far as I know the same people do have a problem with Russia, China, and even the UK.

Americans are cutting off friends and family. Americans are complaining about division. Americans are terrified. It’s amped up on social media.

On fluther, people are just answering questions.

What are you doing to unite America? I consistently ask for jellies and people in my life to calm down about politics, to not ingest politics 24/7, to come together as Americans. I think it was during the Bush Kerri election that Republican groups started to really ramp up messaging that Democrats are anti-American. It’s so offensive. They made Kerri into someone against our troops, which is ridiculous! Every few years something else. Taking the knee, BLM, all of which the alt-right turned into people hate America and many Republicans buy right into that rhetoric.

I wouldn’t worry about foreigners, I’d worry about Americans themselves. Now, the left wing is fighting fire with Fire so it has heated up. You get what you give eventually.

I’ll send your Q to some of our jellies who live outside the US.

seawulf575's avatar

@_____ I can respect that. I, too, believe in making our country responsible for its wrongdoings. For example, when the US ambassador’s wife in the UK did a hit and run and killed a teen, I firmly believe we should have handed her over for prosecution. If her arrest were to threaten the ability of the ambassador to do his job properly, then he should be replaced.
However, my question goes further than that. I can see things wrong in all parts of the world and many of them aren’t wrong from our doing. Yet I don’t go onto Russian chat rooms and try to spread hate and discontent in their people. I don’t reach out to Iranian people to try running down the choices of their government or to scream about the problems they have caused our country. Even countries like the UK and Germany, who are our allies, have done things that have caused us problems. Yet I don’t spew hatred at their people or try dividing them. So there is a part of my question that asks why these people feel it is okay to do it to our nation.
Another part of the question has to do with the fact that some of these same jellies support China or Russia or even Germany or the UK and never have a bad word to say about them, regardless of how much those countries impact their own. They aren’t out there slamming Xi Jinping yet China continues to be one of the biggest polluters of the world. They are notorious for industrial and political espionage as well as other more personal attacks on just about every nation on Earth. Yet these non-US jellies are silent about their evils. So why, if they are worried about specific things they claim are impacting their nations, are they trying so hard to divide our nation and not the others?

_____'s avatar

^ I’m trying to make sense of this response, but it has phrases I’m unfamiliar with (“spew hatred” and “divide our nation”). Can you rephrase?

SEKA's avatar

For example, when the US ambassador’s wife in the UK did a hit and run and killed a teen, I firmly believe we should have handed her over for prosecution. If her arrest were to threaten the ability of the ambassador to do his job properly, then he should be replaced.

If trump had done the hit and run, you’d have excuses out the ass as to how it was all fake news and everybody should stop picking on the poor guy. trump can’t do his job at home and you’re still arguing that he should get another 4 years of fucking us

stanleybmanly's avatar

@seawulf575 you claim that YOU don’t go on websites in foreign countries bitching about those nation’s failures. Why aren’t we jellies giving the Chinese and Russians hell?

Let’s poll our membership on its fluency in Chinese or Russian or the extent of American knowledge or interest in ANY country (including our own). Besides, you can bet your Trump/Putin lovin ass that our government (just like yours) has operatives (just like you) undermining those regimes deemed hostile to “our” interests.

Jeruba's avatar

GA, @JLeslie. I think that is your best post ever.

seawulf575's avatar

@SEKA That is a strawman argument. For the record, if Trump had actually done a hit and run and killed someone with it (seems unlikely since he has chauffeurs) and was caught at it, I would have definitely called for him to be responsible. Not even a pardon. Please note all the provisos. If his limo it someone and they took off, you fools on the left would blame Trump like he was driving. I say that since you do that with everything.

seawulf575's avatar

@stanleybmanly I say that based on their responses to things on these pages. I have heard them defend China and blame Trump for the coronavirus. I have heard them ignore actions taken by Trump against Russia to blame him for everything under the sun, but they don’t actually say anything negative about Putin.

stanleybmanly's avatar

Even the Chinese don’t blame Trump for creation of the covid virus, and I can’t recall a single soul accusing him of any such thing. It his criminal failure of leadership that leaves us to deal catch as catch can with 50 separate epidemics. And, it isn’t Russian or Chinese policies (aside from those aimed at bolstering the fool) that have impacted this country to the extent of the behavior of our idiot.

JLeslie's avatar

@Jeruba Thank you.

KNOWITALL's avatar

The Canadian truck driver is the only one who answered this question in open forum previously. He said Trumps trade negatively affected their forestation, from what I recall.

JkrbyPlylsts's avatar

The divide has been here for quite some time internally. But many are opportunists that plant a seed like our most recent dictator in house for personal gain.

Response moderated (Personal Attack)

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