I have heard that it is better to continue wearing a mask.

@crazyguy This statement ”...on an assumption rather than science is once again, one of your false equivalents.

There is no comprehensive science yet to determine if mask wearing is necessary or not. The assumption therefore is to be prudent and cautious.

Wear the fucking mask and quit complaining. Most people haven’t been vaccinated yet.

The issue is, that we do not know if someone who is vaccinated, while not getting sick themselves, could yet still transmit the virus to someone else.

And about assumptions:
You can either assume that a vaccinated person can not infect others anymore, or you can assume that they still can.
And since wearing a mask barely even qualifies as an imposition, it is reasonable to err on the side of caution.

You know, I recently learned, that Castle Bravo, the Colonies’ first hydrogen bomb, turned out to be 3 times more powerful than planned, because the scientists involved assumed, that the lithium-7 that they put into it as some sort of buffer, would not undergo a nuclear reaction. But it did.

So you can either say “nah, it’s gonna be fine”, then be shocked when it goes wrong and more people die, or play it safe, with being slightly invonvenienced as the worst outcome.

Even if you are immune after vaccination, it is possible that you could carry the virus and pass it along to someone who has yet to be vaccinated.

So continue to wear a mask. Not for your protection, but that of others.

Unless, of course, you only care about yourself.

Highly recommended. 95% effectiveness does not equal 100% effectiveness.

Sigh

@kritiper That is exactly what I have heard; that is what I plan to do. However, I am hoping that science will answer the rather basic question I asked.

@elbanditoroso Moderna’s efficacy of 94.1% is calculated as 185/(185+11) = 94.1%. 185 is the number of positives in the placebo group, and 11 is the number of positives in the vaccine group. Not exactly a large sample. I suspect as the study continues, and the UK study which exposes vaccinated individuals to the virus, we will obtain better data, which will show efficacy much closer to 100%.

@cookieman If you think there is something wrong with examining the science behind the recommendation to wear a mask, you are just an obedient lamb…

@ragingloli An assumption that can be refuted with just a little bit of effort but lead to a whole lot of inconvenience for some people, should be refuted as soon as possible. Just like the assumed nature of Li-7 in your example.

@crazyguy: When did I say that? But thank you for the name calling. That said, now I am in the mood for lamb chops. Mmmmm.

@crazyguy
If people can do exhausting athletic activities with a clunky gas mask, you can wear a cloth mask for an hour when you go shopping.

Yes.

@zenvelo Let me correct you as gently as possible.

1. Look up the meaning of “false equivalence”. According to Wikipedia, “False equivalence is a logical fallacy in which an equivalence is drawn between two subjects based on flawed or false reasoning.” My statement relates to just one subject, so your use of “false equivalence” is hard to understand.

2. I know that the science does not exist yet. The directive to continue wearing a mask is therefore based on an assumption.

3. The assumption is not to be prudent and cautious but that spread is possible from a fully vaccinated person. Being prudent and cautious is justification for making the assumption.

4. I do intend to wear a mask; but shall keep on raising questions about it as long as I am alive.

@cookieman I did paraphrase ever so slightly. What you said was:

“Even if you are immune after vaccination, it is possible that you could carry the virus and pass it along to someone who has yet to be vaccinated.
So continue to wear a mask. Not for your protection, but that of others.
Unless, of course, you only care about yourself.”

To me, “continue to wear a mask” sounds like being a lamb.

This question is but an extension of the basic question: was it EVER necessary to wear a mask under ANY circumstances? I find it depressing that at this late stage the efficacy of a mask would be questioned whether one is vaccinated or not. The failure of logic in this country is enough to drive you to despair. To me this is like asking that if you’ve been vaccinated is it no longer necessary to wash your hands? The function of the mask is to block both the inhalation AND exhalation of aerosols. A hotshot scientist is not necessary to confirm this. If there is a single conclusion to be drawn regarding this disease it is this: we have bungled its management and accrued the casualties we deserve!

@zenvelo I wear a mask when I go shopping – most shops will not let you in without a mask. I do not wear a mask when I can social distance outdoors. So your point is hard to fathom. Are you saying that interference with my life is ok if the inconvenience is slight? And my job is to obey and not question?

Why is it that the only time conservatives feel rebellious and have an urge to not be a “sheep”, it almost always manifests in ways that cause demonstrable harm to others?

@hello321 “Harm to others” is an assumption. The assumption should be refuted as soon as possible. Until it is, I intend to wear a mask.

@Caravanfan Your refusal to engage in a scientific discussion says a lot about you.

@crazyguy: That’s funny, “continue to wear a mask” sounds like being a cautious, thoughtful person to me.

To each his own.

@crazyguy: “Harm to others” is an assumption. The assumption should be refuted as soon as possible.”

Why should “wearing a mask saves lives” be an assumption that “should be refuted as soon as possible”?

I’ll repeat the Doctor’s NPR posting – —

Why You Should Still Wear A Mask And Avoid Crowds After Getting The COVID-19 Vaccine

@crazyguy You do realize that @Caravanfan is an ER DOCTOR!
Read the link he provided.

C’mon @SQUEEKY2, why on earth would an experienced and educated ER Doctor such as @Caravanfan know more about COVID and wearing masks than an average Joe like @crazyguy? ~

@cookieman The only thing I see wrong with not wearing a mask after being fully vaccinated (assuming that the studies will go the way I expect they will) would be: “How will people realize that you have been fully vaccinated?” I think we’ll need a visual symbol showing that.

@SQUEEKY2 @cookieman The only response from the “experienced and educated ER doctor” has been “SIGH”. He is obviously tired after treating the hordes of covid patients that got too close to non-mask wearers!

Anti-Maskers were already using fake “exemption” documents in order to get into shops maskless.
You think they are not going to fake these “I got vaccinated” symbols, too?

^ I’ll ask you again: Why should “wearing a mask saves lives” be an assumption that “should be refuted as soon as possible”?

@hello321 I guess you answered my latest question.

The assumption that I was talking about was that a vaccinated person is protected from the disease but is still capable of transmitting it.

Yes. The vaccine does’t prevent you from catching and carrying the disease. It prevents the virus from propagatng in your body. Get the vaccine, and you will better withstand the virus.
So, wearing a mask is still necessary.

@crazyguy – Why should this assumption be “refuted as soon as possible”?

@SQUEEKY2 (Actually I’m not an ER doctor. I’m an ICU doctor)

Wait…wait… @crazyguy, didn’t you say you were here to keep us informed?

Sorry for that @Caravanfan .
Thanks for clearing that up.
But when the @crazyguy doesn’t realize the link and just recognizes as just one word kinda get to me.
Personally I don’t think the human race it intelligent enough to beat Covid19 anytime soon. there will be a great deal more deaths that could be prevented before this nightmare is over.

If nothing else, I wear a mask because the nation’s knuckleheads have rendered not wearing a mask the equivalent of a statement that “I don’t give a fk”. It is also an open admission that I am too stupid to be allowed to live among you and worthy of whatever consequence that implies.

@crazyguy “The only response from the ‘experienced and educated ER doctor’ has been ‘SIGH.’”

No, it was a sigh with a link to this article answering your question. (And again, he’s an ICU doctor, not an ER doctor.)

@hello321 “Why should ‘wearing a mask saves lives’ be an assumption that ‘should be refuted as soon as possible’?”

Because he doesn’t know what “refuted” means.

@Irukandji: “Because he doesn’t know what “refuted” means.”

That’s likely at this point. He has refused to answer the question.

Um, I think you mean he has refuted to answer the question. Get it right! ~

And why “as soon as possible”?
Wording it like that, implies severe negative consequences if it turns out that vaccinated people can not spread the virus.
Which there are not. The only consequence is people being slightly, minorly, trivially inconvenienced by having to wear a mask.

The latest Public Service Announcement I saw from the Health Dept (state level) suggested wearing two masks. One mask is somewhere around 80% efficient in preventing airborne droplets both ways, double masking increases efficiency to somewhere around 90%.

@Strauss Yep.

@crazyguy How will people realize that you have been fully vaccinated? Wear a scarlet V, or whatever color you like, as a symbol

@Caravanfan Thanks, Doc! And thanks for all you do everyday!

@SQUEEKY2 I admit I missed the fact that @Caravanfan‘s one word answer was a link. I did go to it and read the entire article. It did provide a little more detail to what I had read elsewhere. However, it does not answer two basic questions:

1. What is so different between the flu antibodies and covid antibodies that we suspect that covid antibodies may not be able to fight the virus in the nose and throat?
2. Why can’t the question be answered rather simply by testing nano-pharyngeal samples for antibodies?

@canidmajor Given all the off-the-cuff answers, I dare say that most posters here could use some informing.

@Irukandji 1. Yes, indeed. I did miss the link. Thanks for the reminder.
2. I would wager that my English is far better than most posters here. I do know what ‘refuted’ means; “wearing a mask to save lives” is not an assumption. However, it is based on the assumption that a mask helps a fully vaccinated person not infect somebody else.

@hello321 This thread is supposed to be educational, not confrontational. I am truly surprised at the venom directed at everybody who dares question a “fact”.

@ragingloli I would like to remind you that herd immunity requires the immunization of a large percentage of the population. Dr Fauci has given various answers about the exact percentage required, but I think 80–85% seems generally accepted. In order to get to that level, it is necessary to offer some reward for getting vaccinated. I think going maskless is a possible reward.

@Strauss Whoa, 90%, ONLY? Keep in mind that full vaccination gives you 95% protection.

@lastexit I do not think you can leave it up to the individual. It has to be a hard-to-duplicate, standard identification that is immediately visible to individuals around the vaccinated, maskless person, so they do not freak out.

@crazyguy
You would think that being all but immunte and a nearly eliminated risk of death would be reward enough.
Maybe the doctor can offer you an additional piece of candy or a lollypop.

@crazyguy: “This thread is supposed to be educational, not confrontational. I am truly surprised at the venom directed at everybody who dares question a “fact”.”

Why should “wearing a mask saves lives” be an assumption that “should be refuted as soon as possible”?

@crazyguy: In this question you asked a few weeks ago, you made some vows to behave differently in the future. Right now, you are violating your new vows, having referred to some Jellies on this thread as lambs and other rude and unnecessary comments.

I thought a new leaf was being turned over when you asked this question a few weeks ago.

https://www.fluther.com/225048/how-can-we-reduce-the-division-in-the-us/

I haven’t read above.

I will still be masking in stores.

I will mask with friends who are not vaccinated.

I will not be wearing a mask with friends who are double vaccinated unless they want me to, then I will do whatever the other person requests.

Right now I don’t really care what the news and cdc are saying about always wearing a mask still, I’m just going to use my own brain, which has been fairly reliable so far with this pandemic.

It makes sense to me for everyone to still wear masks in public areas, because most of America is still not vaccinated and we possibly can be carriers and we need the peer pressure for mask wearing to be the norm. If I am in a room of 6 people and all have been vaccinated then it’s basically herd immunity in that setting.

Moreover, I love that people are a little more cautious during flu season, and think we should have some mask wearing and slight changes in behavior every flu season. Not to the extent we have now, but some precautions Nov-March could easily save 20,000 or more lives every year and millions fewer would get sick to begin with.

@hello321 He can’t ignore you forever.

@crazyguy “To me, personally, the biggest payoff of the vaccines is a return to near-normal…”

Then you’re not paying attention. Every minute this fucking virus remains in a host, it’s reproducing exponentially and mutating. It’s possible for this thing to become more deadly, more transmissible and more resistant to vaccination. The faster we can stomp this thing out, the faster we can go back to life-as-normal. That means doing your part and following the guidelines.

The biggest benefit to you of the vaccine is the opportunity for humanity to beat the virus before it mutates into something much worse.

@gorillapaws: “The faster we can stomp this thing out, the faster we can go back to life-as-normal. That means doing your part and following the guidelines.”

But what if rich guys who don’t work want to play golf and still show off their pearly whites? Isn’t wearing a mask the same thing as communism or something?

@ragingloli I got my second dose of the vaccine on Wednesday. In two weeks I should be all but immune. So, I do not need any reward to do the right thing. I was suggesting the reward for people who are opposed to the vaccine for some strange reason.

@hello321 “Wearing a mask (may) save lives” is a fact, not an assumption. However, if you are saying that a fully vaccinated person saves lives by wearing a mask, I am inclined to disagree for the simple reason that we do not yet know.

@jca2 I apologize. However, you must admit that I am getting attacked rather mercilessly for a question that I asked in good faith, based on its importance to me and society as a whole.

@JLeslie Here is what I think should happen going forward:

1. All fully vaccinated people should wear a clear, hard-to-copy identifier showing their status.
2. Such people should be given the option to be unmasked (if they so choose) after we find out for certain that a fully vaccinated person cannot spread the disease (unless s/he catches it first).
3. Anybody without the identifier and a mask should be arrested.

I agree with your suggestion for minimizing flu cases. The above approach will not work for flu until we get a vaccine with higher efficacy.

@gorillapaws You say: “Every minute this fucking virus remains in a host, it’s reproducing exponentially and mutating.” How does my wearing a mask help “stomp this thing out”? Assuming science can prove that a fully vaccinated person cannot catch or spread the virus.

@hello321 Your envy is showing through.

@Blackberry If flu antibodies can make it from the bloodstream into the nose and throat, why can’t covid antibodies do the same? However, I am willing to wait a while for science to get its act together.

@crazyguy ”... How does my wearing a mask help “stomp this thing out”? Assuming science can prove that a fully vaccinated person cannot catch or spread the virus.” [emphasis added]

If science proves it then you’re right. It is my understanding that this is still an open question currently being studied. Until that question is answered definitively, we should proceed with the most cautious approach, and that means following the CDC guidelines.

@crazyguy ” . . . . However, if you are saying that a fully vaccinated person saves lives by wearing a mask, I am inclined to disagree for the simple reason that we do not yet know.”

- – So science doesn’t count ?

CDC https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/faq.html recommends wearing a mask because vaccination does mean you can’t get COVID-19 or if you have a mild case you can’t give to non-vaccinated people.

“Is it absolutely necessary” >> Probably not. It’s not “absolutely necessary” to do most things. This is an exceedingly high bar. Most things are not “absolutely necessary.” (Arguably, nothing humans do or experience is… After all, the world will keep turning; the universe will keep expanding.)

Is it important to wear a mask? Absolutely… And that’s enough of a reason.

@crazyguy: ”“Wearing a mask (may) save lives” is a fact, not an assumption. However, if you are saying that a fully vaccinated person saves lives by wearing a mask, I am inclined to disagree for the simple reason that we do not yet know.”

Why should “wearing a mask saves lives” be an assumption that “should be refuted as soon as possible”?

Why should “wearing a mask saves lives” be an assumption that “should be refuted as soon as possible”?
Why should “wearing a mask saves lives” be an assumption that “should be refuted as soon as possible”?
Why should “wearing a mask saves lives” be an assumption that “should be refuted as soon as possible”?
Why should “wearing a mask saves lives” be an assumption that “should be refuted as soon as possible”?
Why should “wearing a mask saves lives” be an assumption that “should be refuted as soon as possible”?
Why should “wearing a mask saves lives” be an assumption that “should be refuted as soon as possible”?
Why should “wearing a mask saves lives” be an assumption that “should be refuted as soon as possible”?
Why should “wearing a mask saves lives” be an assumption that “should be refuted as soon as possible”?

(Just in case he didn’t see the question)

From the Oregon Health Department:

Today we announced the discovery of four “breakthrough” cases of COVID-19. These are cases where an individual has tested positive for COVID-19 at least 14 days after completing their vaccination series….

Genome sequencing is underway, and we expect results next week.

Such cases are not unexpected. Clinical trials of both vaccines presently in use included breakthrough cases. In those cases, even though the participants got COVID-19, the vaccines reduced the severity of illness…

@gorillapaws I agree. I fully intend to wear a mask until a definitive finding is made. However, I do not see any reason why covid antibodies would behave any differently than flu antibodies.
Do you?

@Caravanfan I answered the question (which is totally unrelated to my question) as best as I can.

^ You haven’t answered the question yet.

@JLeslie Thanks for the heads up.

I think the true test of vaccine efficacy is what percentage of vaccinated people catch covid with identical exposure. The Phase III studies left volunteers on their own and then calculated efficacy as the percentage of people with covid in the placebo group of the total number of positives. Deliberately exposing volunteers to the virus poses many ethical questions as addressed in
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/global-health/science-and-disease/covid-19-human-challenge-trials-play-crucial-role-vaccinating/
However, without such trials, the calculated efficacy of a vaccine does not adjust for different behavior patterns, and may be somewhat misleading. After my two doses, I want realistic estimates of the chances of:

1. Me or my wife catching covid.
2. Me or my wife passing on the disease while asymptomatic.

@hello321 The best I could do (and it is already done) is:

”“Wearing a mask (may) save lives” is a fact, not an assumption. However, if you are saying that a fully vaccinated person saves lives by wearing a mask, I am inclined to disagree for the simple reason that we do not yet know.” If you don’t think that is an answer, please dig it up yourself.

@crazyguy: ”“Wearing a mask (may) save lives” is a fact, not an assumption.”

@crazyguy: ”“Harm to others” is an assumption. The assumption should be refuted as soon as possible. Until it is, I intend to wear a mask.”

@crazyguy: “However, if you are saying that a fully vaccinated person saves lives by wearing a mask, I am inclined to disagree for the simple reason that we do not yet know.”

So, as I have continued to ask: Why should “wearing a mask saves lives” be an assumption that “should be refuted as soon as possible”?

If you misspoke and meant that something else should be “refuted as soon as possible”, can you elaborate?

He’s just pretending he understands medicine and biology and he doesn’t

@hello321 When exactly did I say that “wearing a mask saves lives” is an assumption? And please do not add or leave out any words from my statements.

^ @crazyguy: ””“Harm to others” is an assumption. The assumption should be refuted as soon as possible. Until it is, I intend to wear a mask.””

What assumption should be refuted as soon as possible?

To act with “an abundance of caution” is to wear a mask. The “assumption”, in this case, is that if we err by masking we err on the side of caution.

@hello321 Let me spell it out for you again. Since we do not know for certain that a fully vaccinated person can spread covid asymptomatically, we ASSUME that is the case. That assumption can and will be refuted soon.

AND if you still don’t get it, please feel free to ask and perhaps somebody else will try to enlighten you.

Assuming, for the sake of argument, that once someone has the vaccine they cannot in any way spread covid, and we know this to be the case. (Side note: I’m not a medical professional, but from what I understand, this is not how vaccines work… regardless, let’s assume it’s true).

It would still be prudent (read: necessary) to require general mask wearing, and it would still be prudent (read: necessary) to wear a mask after being vaccinated.

It would be a nightmare—logistically and socially—to attempt some sort of system that separates out “the vaccinated” from the “not vaccinated,” especially in a place like the US where such a strong “anti-mask” sentiment has been cultivated. Requiring general mask wearing until a herd-immunity vaccination level is reached is far less invasive for the individual and far more feasible for the community. Selective mask requirements are a bad idea. Continued mask wearing from all is important and needed for preventing even more unnecessary loss of life.

@crazyguy: “That assumption can and will be refuted soon.”

This is the part you aren’t explaining. When you used ”should be refuted”, were you not making a normative statement? Or did I misunderstand? Was “should” simply serving to express that you felt it was likely?

If it was the latter, explain what “as soon as possible” does in your statement?

It appears that you made a very strong statement and are now (possibly) walking it back to mean that you anticipate understanding about the utility of wearing a mask to change shortly.

@sadiesayit If a reasonable means cannot be found to identify fully vaccinated individuals, I agree that mask wearing for all should be enforced. However, I think if a hard-to-duplicate badge can be produced, and then vaccinated folks are allowed to go maskless, that would provide a huge incentive for the unvaccinated to get their shots.

I really don’t see “vaccine badges” being the incentive you think they would be, nor being as simple and consequence-free to implement as you think they would be. You also seem to be basing the whole idea on the assumption that people who have a vaccine cannot still spread a virus to others, while ignoring the other reasons that continuing to wear a mask is and will continue to be important in the immediate future.

What’s the fixation on finding something other than wearing a mask to serve the purposes that masks already serve sufficiently well? Just wear a mask in public. It’s really not that big of a deal.

We all know that such a badge would be equated to Star of David Concentration Camp armbands. Or the “Mark of the Beast”.

A “hard to duplicate vaccine badge” will be something that in this entitled atmosphere we live in, people will go off if asked “Miss, do you have proof that you were vaccinated?” “I left it home” and a million other excuses will come forth. OK, so the remedy will be if you don’t have your proof, you put on a mask. Then the screaming starts. Easier to just make a blanket policy, you must wear a mask to enter.

@crazyguy – Ok, so I was correct.

@crazyguy: “However, I think if a hard-to-duplicate badge can be produced, and then vaccinated folks are allowed to go maskless, that would provide a huge incentive for the unvaccinated to get their shots.”

Incentive? Who wouldn’t want to get vaccinated? The incentive should be obvious to everyone. Who doesn’t want to get vaccinated as soon as possible? The problem right now is that people can’t get the shot. It’s simply not available.

If we found that we needed to provide an incentive, we could confine these people to their homes – or some island. Once they want to be part of society, they could start acting like it.

I agree with @jca2. Plus, look at the flu map! We are saving millions from flu illness and thousands of people didn’t die from flu this year because we are masked up and distancing. You can change the year and slide back to the same week. Look at all of January. It’s drastic! https://www.cdc.gov/flu/weekly/usmap.htm

I don’t mind the idea of a wallet vaccine card, since it is probably impossible to do something on our phone since Americans are too afraid of privacy being taken away, we wouldn’t use the apps Asia used for alerting someone if they had been near someone with covid.

@hello321 We can indulge in word-smithing all day and miss the forest. The point I am trying to make (and I believe you already understand that) is that we are assuming that a fully vaccinated person can spread the disease asymptomatically. The reason for the assumption is that we don’t know any better.

There is absolutely no reason to think that a fully vaccinated person will be able to spread the disease. I agree that the science has not got there yet, but I am confident it will. Once it does, mask-wearing will become optional, since it will be only for protection of the wearer. If the vaccine were 100% effective, there would not be any need for masks at all. But what just happened in Oregon is enough to convince me that the vaccine is not 100%. If a vaccinated person does catch the disease, and is symptomatic, s/he should quarantine just like a non-vaccinated person.

@crazyguy: “The point I am trying to make (and I believe you already understand that) is that we are assuming that a fully vaccinated person can spread the disease asymptomatically. The reason for the assumption is that we don’t know any better.”

Your “point” is that you feel that there is some need to refute this “assumption” as soon as possible…for some bizarre reason. We’re in the middle of a pandemic, nobody can actually get vaccinated, and your concern is that we should allow the vaccinated to go maskless as soon as possible. What? Why is…I’m beyond confused.

You’ve said above that you feel going maskless could be an incentive for people to get vaccinated. I’ve already commented on that absurdity. Is there some other reason?

Let’s entertain your ridiculous argument and say the vaccines become available so people can start to get vaccinated. Let’s say we get to a point where 20% of the population is fully vaccinated with the 95% effective vaccine. Let’s also grant you the scenario where it’s scientifically shown that a vaccinated person cannot carry the virus or transmit it.

Great. Now, let’s say I’m one of the 80% of the population that can’t get access to the vaccine yet. I see someone walking towards me without a mask. What are my options?

a) I could scream at them to stop where they are and ask them for proof that they have been vaccinated.
b) I could assume they are a sociopath who doesn’t care about killing me.
c) I could just quietly take the risk and allow them to possibly kill me.
d) I could shoot them in self defense.

Is this how you would like to see this play out? Am I missing an option?

What is your obsession with masks?

I’ve never seen anyone contradict themselves as rapidly as @crazyguy does….

I actually get cold really easily. I grew up in San Diego so 50 degrees is cold. So I like wearing a mask because it keeps my face warm when I go outside.

I agree with @crazyguy that EVENTUALLY there might be incentive to get vaccinated to not have to wear a mask. Especially, for people who work in certain jobs. We are just waiting for the science. If the science shows there are still large outbreaks then we will still have to wear masks in public places, but hopefully this will be extremely unlikely once we are at 80% vaccinated.

I have a friend who prior to covid wore a fitted N95 all day at work during flu season because she did not take the flu shot annually, the hospital she works in required it. If she had taken the flu shot she would not need to wear that mask, so it is not an absurd idea that this could eventually become the case for covid. My same friend really wants to be able to take off her mask after work, so she did take the covid shot.

Right now the government health agencies have incentive to not change anything regarding mask requirements no matter what the science is showing, because we need people to keep wearing masks, we need it to be the norm while we still have so much of the population not vaccinated.

Certainly, we can be maskless if we are fully vaccinated and in a room with other people who are fully vaccinated assuming all variants of the virus are susceptible to the vaccine. Otherwise, what is the point of being vaccinated? There is still a risk, but it would be extremely low. That would be like worrying about Chicken Pox in a room when the whole room has been vaccinated.

Once we get to a point that masks are not required, then people who are very vulnerable and cannot receive a vaccination can wear a mask and it will be a signal to others to keep their distance. In Japan the sick wear a mask if they have to go out in public and it is a signal to people that they are trying to protect others. In AMERICA for many years cancer patients wear masks when in public and we knew to be careful. Before covid when I saw friends with mask on I knew not to hug, not to touch, to respect their space and their efforts to stay as healthy as possible.

What I don’t understand is why the people in the phase two and three testing were not tested for covid every 14 days while in the study to see if they were shedding virus. That seems like an obvious thing to do to see if there was any asymptomatic shedding.

I agree with @Caravanfan about the cold weather and the mask.

@hello321 The scenario you posed is definitely challenging, but I did address it earlier on the thread:

” If a reasonable means cannot be found to identify fully vaccinated individuals, I agree that mask wearing for all should be enforced. However, I think if a hard-to-duplicate badge can be produced, and then vaccinated folks are allowed to go maskless, that would provide a huge incentive for the unvaccinated to get their shots.”

As far as incentive to take the vaccine goes, I noticed that you personally did not answer the earlier question on whether you would take the vaccine when it is offered to you. The extremely unscientific survey showed that most, but not nearly all, Fluther members would take the vaccine. National, more scientific, surveys have shown about one-third of Americans do not plan to take it. Actually, my wife and I have wondered if the day or two of feeling feverish and having arm ache was truly worth getting vaccinated, if it does not change our lifestyle at all. So yes, incentive is required.

@JLeslie WONDER OF WONDERS! Somebody on Fluther (other than Wulfie, Yellowdog and other White Supremacists!) has agreed with me!

In turn I agree with most off what you said. I had some difficulty with:

Right now the government health agencies have incentive to not change anything regarding mask requirements no matter what the science is showing, because we need people to keep wearing masks, we need it to be the norm while we still have so much of the population not vaccinated.

If the science shows that vaccinated people can no longer spread the virus, there is no need for vaccinated people to keep wearing masks. As I have stated many times on this thread, we do need a hard to duplicate means of identifying such people.

I want to give you a shout-out for the wonderful statements in your final paragraph:

“What I don’t understand is why the people in the phase two and three testing were not tested for covid every 14 days while in the study to see if they were shedding virus. That seems like an obvious thing to do to see if there was any asymptomatic shedding.”

My explanation: They were pressured to not release that part of the study. Let us see how easy that would be. They would test (for antibodies) the same nasopharyngeal swab they used for covid testing. Do you really believe they did not do that?

@crazyguy My statement that you have a problem with goes back to @jca2’s point. Carding people is a hassle and some people will take issue with it. That might work in the far future for specific situations, but not now. It’s not realistic now. Anti-vaccine people will say they are discriminated against. People who can’t take the vaccine will feel hassled. Our children will still need to be masked. We need masking to be the norm.

Just too early in the game right now, but the topic is worth the thinking about. It’s worth the government’s time to consider what type of recommendations in the future might be reasonable regarding vaccine ID if we cannot get to significant herd immunity and squash the virus.

Keep in mind every year we let flu kill thousands of people. I doubt the government is looking for zero deaths from covid to finally lift many of the precautions.

“Actually, my wife and I have wondered if the day or two of feeling feverish and having arm ache was truly worth getting vaccinated, if it does not change our lifestyle at all.”

This hurts to read.

It is not just you getting vaccinated that will “change your lifestyle”, it is everyone else also getting vaccinated that will, by making unnecessary quarantines, lockdowns, social distancing and having to wear masks.
But frankly, this selfish and shortsighted thinking, this inability and/or unwillingness to consider and contemplate anything beyond their front door, is something I have come to expect from conservatives.
It really is one of their defining features.

@JLeslie I did not specify that form the proof of vaccination should take. @jca2 assumed it would be some sort of card. I do not think that will work because how would you feel if some stranger asked you to produce your card?

No. it has to be something out of sci fi, like an aura or something that cannot be duplicated and is visible from 20–30 feet, at a minimum.

Even if a vaccine passport were provided, how many people will move around their neighborhoods with that?

Perhaps you don’t need to do anything. The fully vaccinated person dopes not care who gets close to him/her. The unvaccinated better protect themselves from all strangers.

@crazyguy The problem is the mask protects others better than it protects ourselves, so the unvaccinated person might wear a mask, but they are safer if the other person is wearing a mask. I know you accept this as a given.

That’s why I go back to a cultural shift where a person wearing a mask is a signal to other people to keep their distance. I’m shocked how people where I live don’t understand this. I’m wearing a mask, that means I give I care about not spreading contagious disease. Why in the name of Mary and Joseph would someone walk right up to me a foot away whether they have on a mask or not? Get back.

“No. it has to be something out of sci fi, like an aura or something that cannot be duplicated and is visible from 20–30 feet, at a minimum.”

I’m genuinely confused. Has your entire position on a “vaccine identification” process been in some sort of jest, or only this comment?

@JLeslie If I am fully vaccinated, there are two things I have to worry about:

1. Catching COVID.
2. Infecting others.

The first is a selfish reason. The second is something that can, and should be, mandated because it protects others.

A fully vaccinated person has a very low risk of catching the disease. If assurances can be provided that a fully vaccinated person is incapable of asymptomatic transmission, then there is no need for a mask mandate. The person may choose to wear a mask, but there should be no mandate to wear one.

@sadiesayit I fully realize the difficulties of getting Americans to willingly display some sort of proof of vaccination. And the difficulty of assuring that the proof cannot be duplicated by an unvaccinated person.

You may assume that, if I knew the answer, I would provide it. However, do not assume that I am joking just because I do not have the answer.

@crazyguy—I wasn’t assuming. That’s why I asked. The sci-fi comment seems to come out of nowhere from my perspective, so I wasn’t sure if that was the tone you’d intended to convey with everything else you’d said so far, or just a one-off.

If you “fully realize the difficulties of getting Americans to willingly display some sort of proof of vaccination. And the difficulty of assuring that the proof cannot be duplicated by an unvaccinated person” ... Then why isn’t mask wearing enough of an answer? It’s simple, it’s clear, it’s visible, it’s consistent, it’s already established as a practice (and already working), and it doesn’t introduce new unnecessary risks and confusions to an already difficult situation. Why continue to insist that there ought to be some other elaborate system introduced, as if there’s something so terribly difficult about wearing a mask until enough of the population is vaccinated that things can begin to relax? Wearing a mask for the time being is not a big ask.

@sadiesayit I agree that mask wearing is not a big ask. However, please answer the following question: why should anybody go through the pain that is a side effect of the vaccine (especially the second dose) if there is no benefit to their life style until everybody is vaccinated?

Because if everyone’s waiting for everyone else to be vaccinated first, no one gets vaccinated, and the pandemic never ends.

There aren’t enough vaccines (or enough infrastructure, or enough medical professionals, etc.) to stick everyone at the same time. If there were, that’s what would have already happened.

Also, you now have the peace of mind to know that you likely can’t get covid, and if you do, the severity of your individual illness is vastly reduced.

A few days of mild discomfort as your body responds to the vaccine should pale in comparison to those two reasons.

Why should anybody go through the pain that is a side effect of the vaccine (especially the second dose) if there is no benefit to their life style until everybody is vaccinated?

That’s a non-issue if I’ve ever seen one. There are literally millions of people who want the vaccine, now, and would probably take it even if both their arms turned black and blue for a week. I would.

Nobody is being forced to get the vaccine, so we are – by definition – letting only those who want it have it. Why should we incentivise you, or anyone, while there’s masses ready to take it already? In my country, 70% want the vaccine, with the number rising steadily. Even if it’s really just a third in America (vaccine acceptance tends to go up when everyone in your social circle gets one), that is still millions.

So how about we vaccinate those who want it, and you can choose to wait (and worry about catching Covid, or not) as long as you like. I hope you make a choice that feels safe to you, but we really don’t need to worry about your dose going to waste.

@longgone You make good points. Let me try and counter.

1. I DID want the vaccine; that is why I got it. The vaccine was to protect me from the disease and to allow some relaxation in my protective routine, which essentially eliminates any chance of catching covid. If no relaxation in my protective routine is possible, then the dose given me, and the doses given to most retired people are probably wasted and could have been better utilized on somebody who has to face other people for a living.

2. As you say, there are 30% of the population (by the way, the US has the same percentage) who do not want the vaccine. That being the case, we may never achieve herd immunity.

@sadiesayit I agree with all your points. I am glad to have both doses of the vaccine in me. I would not do it any other way.

However, my wife and I, because we are retired, could take every conceivable precaution against catching covid. So the doses given to us could have been used more beneficially on people who are required to take risks in order to make a living.

The powers that be deemed that people older than 65 should be vaccinated ahead of younger people. In my opinion, that was a stupid decision.

Not stupid. People over 65 are more likely to die from C19 than a younger person.

At age 72 I am still trying to get an appointment for vaccination that is less than 20 miles away, which makes for about a 2-hour bus ride.

Don’t you have someone who can give you a ride @Strauss? Have you checked your local pharmacy to see if they’re vaccinating?

@Dutchess_III You are absolutely right. However, a retired person over the age off 65 has to be fairly careless to catch the disease. It is easier to isolate yourself completely when you are retired.

@Strauss If you live anywhere close to me (South Orange County) I would be glad to give you a ride.

@Strauss If you don’t have the funds, I’m sure if you set up a small go-fund-me people on Fluther would chip in for an Uber for you.

A few decades back, I can remember being struck when watching news footage from Asian countries, there would be people (seemingly ordinary people) engaged in ordinary things but wearing masks. The trend then showed up here. It wasn’t a fad or anything, but occurred often enough that I gave it little thought. You would see masks particularly on the buses and streetcars. What if masks are going to be the norm from here on out?

@Dutchess_III I’ve been checking with several local pharmacies and clinics. They each all have on-line sign-up, and they all say there are no appointments available. I’ve read that the polar invasion inversion might have an adverse effect on getting the vaccine here. My daughter works for a public school system here and her mandatory first dose vaccination happened today.

@crazyguy I appreciate it, but it’d be a 24-hour trip one way. Although I could come up with an awesome playlist for you!

@Caravanfan Thanks for the suggestion, but I don’t feel that urgent a need. I’m in excellent health for my age, no cardiopulmonary or immune system issues, and I’m well isolated with the family. I feel safe saying I will get it when I can.

@Strauss If you have managed to avoid covid for almost a year by doing the right things, there is absolutely no need to take the shots. I would have gladly given my spots to somebody who has to take risks in order to make a living.

@Strauss I feel the need to correct Crazy dude yet again as his advice is terrible. There is every need to take the shot. You’ve gotten lucky so far but if you get Covid your chance of death or disability is higher than most so get the shot.

I plan on getting the shot as soon as possible. State of Colorado gas a goal of getting everyone in my bracket immunized by February 28. I’m not freaking out about it, but I will get it as soon as possible.

@Strauss I think you should get the shot ASAP in order to protect you in case all the other precautions you have been taking for months fail. My earlier comment related to a theoretical question: “Who needs the shot more: a retired person who can rather easily isolate him/herself or a person who has to take risks in order to make a living?” Of course, our so-called expert ignored that in his comment!

By the way, here is a story about how Israel is handling the issue of providing some benefit for taking the vaccine:
https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20210217-israel-s-green-badge-plan-to-open-services-to-vaccinated-stirs-concern

@crazyguy “asap” meaning “as soon as possible”!

I just haven’t been able to get an appointment yet. One of the insurance companies is hosting a mass event this weekend. I think that’s my best shot!
(intentional pun)

Hey @Strauss I hope you don’t have whiplash from Crazy dude’s comments. First he says to you that “there is absolutely no need to take the shots.” Then he says: “I think you should get the shot ASAP in order to protect you in case all the other precautions you have been taking for months fail”

Of course the second comment is the correct one.

I finally received an alert that there are appointments available Saturday afternoon at a local hospital. I was able to schedule my first this Saturday at 2:45 and my second three weeks later.

I’m still gonna mask up when I go out.

@Strauss Do you have transportation figured out?

@Strauss Woohoo! Excellent.

@Strauss That is awesome news. You will feel safer and according to Fauci, you can be normal with other vaccinated folks.

@gorillapaws I was hoping @crazyguy would drive from South Orange County to help me!~~

Just kidding! It’s a Saturday, so my son is available and willing to drive me there and back.

@Strauss I do not know where you live but I gather it is far from South Orange County, CA!

@crazyguy Yeah, I don’t think you’d make it to Colorado in time for my appointment this afternoon! I have a ride set up and all is well.

@Strauss I am so glad. Do let us know if you get any reaction.

I say yes because you might get it again- makes sense to wear it

You won’t get it again if you’re vaccinated @idktimmyturner.

@Dutchess_III Actually you can. It’s just unlikely.

@crazyguy My shoulder hurt for a couple days, but it was no worse than an occasional minor arthritis flare up…it may have been just that!

@Caravanfan I still mask up when I go out.

@Strauss CDC says that if you’re with a small group and everybody is vaccinated you can take your mask off.

@Caravanfan Are MD’s going maskless in the hospital’s doctor’s lounge?

@gorillapaws That is what I would’ve said. lol

@idktimmyturner @gorillapaws I do not know the answer to @gorillapaws’ question. However, even before the CDC finally issued somewhat reasonable guidelines, I was convinced that a fully vaccinated person has zero-to exceedingly low risk of catching and/or transmitting covid. Therefore, a vaccinated person can go maskless almost everywhere.

The only difficulty is knowing who has been vaccinated and who is just anti-mask. So, this afternoon, I told my wife the following:

1. Just because our daughter, who is a recent Mom, is paranoid and requires us to be completely safe before we can see our newest grandson, I shall hereafter refuse her admonitions and bear the consequences.

2. I shall wear a mask only when required to do so.

@crazyguy Finally! Proof.
https://www.verywellhealth.com/pfizer-vaccine-prevents-covid-transmission-5116193

^^ Where does it say don’t have to wear masks ? ^^

@Tropical_Willie I don’t see it either. The closest it comes to saying that is:

”...hope of regaining normal economic and social function in the not so distant future.”

That doesn’t say stop wearing your mask!

@Strauss The only justification for recommending continued use of a mask was to avoid infecting others. Since the study takes away that consideration, what would a vaccinated person wear a mask?

Abundance of caution.

@crazyguy: It’s yet unknown as to whether a vaccinated person can still be a carrier. Therefore, masks are necessary for both the vaccinated person and the rest.

@jca2 What you are saying was true…until the study that I posted.

Form your post @crazyguy “On March 11, 2021, Pfizer made the announcement that its mRNA vaccine for COVID-19 was 94% effective at preventing the asymptomatic transmission of SARS-CoV-2, the virus that causes COVID-19.”

6 percent can still pass COVID-19 on to other people, 94 % is not 100% close but “no cigar.”

All, thanks for a stimulating discussion. I guess this settles it:
https://fortune.com/2021/04/01/its-official-vaccinated-people-dont-transmit-covid-19/

@crazyguy: “I guess this settles it”

or not

Well, I for one get my medical information from Rachel Maddow and Fortune Magazine. So I’m convinced.

^^^^^ I see what you did, Doc ! !^^^^^

@Caravanfan We have a few folks at the golf club who have been vaccinated, are outdoors, and yet wear a double mask! Takes all kinds, I guess.

The lesson from all of this is that you can literally dedicate your life toward scouring the internet in search of opinions which concur with your own. And as sure as shit—you will find them. This is without question the great down side to our digital age. The lemmings of the world permeate and fortify one another. We thus find ourselves confronted with the implausible contradiction that along with the greatest opportunities for human advancement, we must contend with the fact that ignorance and stupidity never had it so good. It is not only knowledge and discoveries. which proliferate over the net. Their opposites are more stubbornly prolific simply because ignorance and stupidity have consistently dominated the reality defining human existence. I have a bias in thinking that we fail to place the emphasis on history which it deserves. The lessons from previous plagues were all right there for us to extrapolate the probabilities regarding this one. And beyond any knowledge or appreciation of previous pandemics, is the fundamental lesson of history regarding any crisis of humanity wherein the outcome hinges on the rational behavior of the populace at large. That factor, all by itself, was sufficient to convince me to shut myself up in this house to witness the carnage and read the rosy nonsense HERE regarding our future.

553,000 dead and counting. Still about a thousand a day !

“Dr. Deborah Birx said that more than 400,000 Covid-19 deaths could have been mitigated, or decreased substantially. MSNBC’s medical contributor Dr. Kavita Patel explains that Birx’s statement is validated in other studies, but a little too late for those affected to hear. ” MSNBC

Guess who wanted to get re-elected (don’t want to quarantine people they might remember that) and thought the answer. (to use “herd immunity” only 10 million would die) SMDH!

Wear your mask!

I had my first vaccine about a month ago, and yet I will continue getting monthly covid tests for my job, and I got a covid test today per my doctor’s recommendation because I developed a sore throat this past week.

“The only difficulty is knowing who has been vaccinated and who is just anti-mask”—sometimes a person is both of these things.

@sadiesayit Published efficacy data on the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines show about 95% efficacy. That means there is still a rather small chance of catching covid even after being vaccinated. Therefore, testing for covid after some symptoms makes sense. However, the CDC now is of the opinion that a vaccinated person cannot spread the disease – see
https://fortune.com/2021/04/01/its-official-vaccinated-people-dont-transmit-covid-19/

If that is the case, there is zero reason for continuing to wear a mask, except that people you encounter do not know that you are vaccinated.

It should be obvious, but if there is a 5% chance that you can catch covid despite being vaccinated, then there is at least a 5% chance that you are infectious after being vaccinated.

And if you get infected in between your first dose and 2 weeks after your second dose (read: before your body had a chance to develop an immunity) (as happened to this guy on the same day he got vaccinated), you are a potential virus spreader.

Not to mention the fact that the developed vaccines were targeted to a specific strain of the virus, and there is no guarantee that they will be as effective against mutant strains of the virus, that are already in circulation and spreading.
In fact, there are already indications that the vaccines are less effective against mutant strains, and depending on the specific vaccine, considerably so.
Plus the fact that certain strains make is more likely to get re-infected.

@ragingloli The way Moderna and Pfizer calculated efficacy left a lot to be desired. They basically compared the number of positives between placebo subjects and vaccinated subjects. Most real-world data indicates a much higher efficacy. For instance, see
https://www.pfizer.com/news/press-release/press-release-detail/real-world-evidence-confirms-high-effectiveness-pfizer

The minute risk of either asymptomatic or mild symptom covid-19 is probably lower than the risk you take driving to work over a year, in other words, too minute to worry about.

As far as other strains go, the vaccines have proven fully effective against the UK variant and, although the antibodies are lower against the South Africa strain, they are enough to prevent infection. See
https://www.medpagetoday.com/infectiousdisease/covid19vaccine/91895

I get that you really don’t like wearing masks. I get that you want to be done with the pandemic. You’ve made both of those things abundantly clear. And it’s not like no one understands those feelings. Everyone wants it to be over.

But it’s not over.

And it’s not time to discard your masks yet. They’re not here forever, and the end is in sight, but they are still here for now.

I would suggest to you that the fact that you really want to stop wearing a mask is motivating your reasoning on this. You have an answer that you want to be the answer, and you are looking for anything that seems to get you to that answer.

… But, again, it’s not time yet. Soon has to be good enough for now.

I really hope you didn’t, as you said you would, fight your daughter’s easy-to-grant request that you wear a mask around an infant. Surely your anti-mask stance isn’t more important than seeing your grandson.

@sadiesayit Apparently it is.

@sadiesayit Thanks for a reasonable response, unlike the person who responded to you!

You are absolutely right, I hate masks! And I did refuse to wear a mask around our grandson, and my daughter was fine with my decision. Even my wife, who would cut off her right arm to please our daughter, agreed with me. Neither of us has worn a mask since the baby arrived and my daughter and son-in-law left for Mexico.

I think wearing a mask around a lovable baby would drive me nuts mainly because I could not kiss those rosy cheeks!

“You are absolutely right, I hate masks! And I did refuse to wear a mask around our grandson, and my daughter allowed herself to be bullied by my decision.” There, FIFY.

@crazyguy—“Thanks for your response” would have been sufficient if you wanted to thank me. No need to pretend to praise me in order to get a flimsy dig at another response—especially one that was literally just agreeing with what I said.

“You are absolutely right, I hate masks!”

But you know that no one is wearing masks right now because they “like” them. You also know that sometimes things that are important to do aren’t always things you “like” doing. Yet you’ve been complaining about masks and looking for reasons you don’t have to wear them from the beginning, and now seem almost proud that you’ve been able to have this “win” of not wearing one around your grandson.

If I had been in your daughter’s position, my parents would not have seen their grandchild as long as they were having a tantrum about masks.

Sound like someone was never forced to eat his vegetables.

@sadiesayit. If I had been in your daughter’s position, my parents would not have seen their grandchild as long as they were having a tantrum about masks.

If you were, I would have trained you to keep an open mind.

@ragingloli Sound like someone was never forced to eat his vegetables.

Since all we had to eat was vegetables, I did learn to eat them. Now once in a while I do eat meat, and then ask myself: why did I do that?

(I was never forced to eat vegetables or anything else.)

Kissing your grandson is more important than protecting him. Those are interesting priorities.

@raum If I truly believed for a second that I was capable of giving him covid, and that wearing a mask would protect him, I would gladly wear three of them! However, I hate to say this to you and the others here: you guys have been duped big time for so long, first by the Chinese (and WHO) and then by the US. See
https://www.bmj.com/content/371/bmj.m4695

Biased and backwards Journal @crazyguy but they harmonize with your POV . . . so they must be correct. NOT

@Tropical_Willie BMJ is actually legit.

@crazyguy From your own article:

“The researchers said that their findings did not show that the virus couldn’t be passed on by asymptomatic carriers, and they didn’t suggest that their findings were generalisable.

They said that strict measures—such as mask wearing, hand washing, social distancing, and lockdown—were successful in reducing the virulence of SARS-CoV-2 in Wuhan and that asymptomatic people in Wuhan may have low viral loads.

This means that the finding cannot be applied to countries where outbreaks have not been successfully brought under control.”

(Also, this is a news article about a study. Not the actual study.)

@raum You make excellent points. I did stumble across the same lines you quoted.

Here are my responses:

1. The researchers said that their findings did not show that the virus couldn’t be passed on by asymptomatic carriers, and they didn’t suggest that their findings were generalisable. Let us examine that statement in the context of the data presented. They found 300 asymptomatic positive cases, and examined 1,174 close contacts of these 300 people. They found ZERO incidences of infection.

I am not sure why they included the statement you picked up. Was it possibly required in order to get the study published?

2. They said that strict measures—such as mask wearing, hand washing, social distancing, and lockdown—were successful in reducing the virulence of SARS-CoV-2 in Wuhan and that asymptomatic people in Wuhan may have low viral loads. Wuhan essentially wiped out covid-19. I had no idea that they were still practicing the strict measures.

3. This means that the finding cannot be applied to countries where outbreaks have not been successfully brought under control. This statement seems disingenuous to me. It is important to bring outbreaks under control, but I am not certain I understand why that is a precondition to obtain the benefits of lack of asymptomatic spread. If an asymptomatic person develops symptoms later, s/he can be isolated at that time.

@raum I have a 44-year old son who pointed me to this article. He had a pulmonary embolism and has been on blood thinners for over two years. If he gets any Covid complications, he may not make it. He lives in Alameda County. He is not sure that he will get vaccinated. I have been urging him to get the vaccination. What would you say to him?

“BMJ is actually legit.” yes I know but biased !toward conspiracy theory !

You’re doing better @crazyguy. But the name of your source is necessary. Was it The National Enquirer?

Everybody should calm down about the BMJ. The article crazydude linked to was a news report in BMJ which talked about another journal called Nature Communication which nobody knows.

@Caravanfan Awesome catch, man. here is the original article:
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-020-19802-w

From your article: ” Public health measures for the prevention and control of COVID-19 epidemic, including wearing masks, keeping safe social distancing in Wuhan should be sustained. Especially, vulnerable populations with weakened immunity or co-morbidities, or both, should continue to be appropriately shielded.”

@crazyguy I would say he should practice his critical reading skills. Not take a news article as a medical study. And get vaccinated—but probably not J&J.

@Caravanfan Since we have been urged on numerous occasions to FOLLOW THE SCIENCE, that is what I am attempting to do. The science, in this case, says that asymptomatic spread is impossible. Everything else is non-scientific opinion!

@raum Since I am very much here, I have no idea why you are using the third person for me. Anyway, part of critical reading skills is distinguishing between scientific fact, and authors’ opinions.

You asked me what I would say to your 44yo son who pointed you to this article?

Just maybe your article is not science based crazy guy. Just maybe.

The point is that there are always going to be opinions and variance in the science, as the definitive consensus is sought. The consideration that matters MOST to me isn’t the speed at which these vaccines came into being in this country. It’s that half a million people have died before one third of us can be vaccinated that is the BIG takeaway. For those of us alive for the next pandemic, it will be the ones with sense to REMEMBER this one, just as surely that it is those NOW who knew about the last pandemic who didn’t waste time arguing about masks and distancing or the utility of vaccination. Again it’s about the uses of history.

What matters to me is, is it proven.

What would matter to me would be the health of that grandchild.

@crazyguy No. What you are doing is called “cherry picking”.

@Caravanfan I would respond that you have been doing more cherry-picking than me, but I will not. I believe I pointed out specific pieces of scientific data. What you pointed out was opinion.

@Strauss As a matter of fact, the grandchild is fine. He was with my wife and me for four days and with his paternal grand-parents for three days. I saw him yesterday – he looks awesome. His parents arrived yesterday and drove him back to Oakland.

@raum I did, indeed. However, I spoke to him at length on Saturday before he left. His facts are hard to refute:

1. He claims his chances of catching Covid are of the order of 0.1%.
2. Even if he caught it, the chances of a serious disease are extremely low.
3. The combined probability is lower than that of a clot resulting from the vaccine.

As you know, clots have been identified as a possible side effect from the J&J and AstraZaneca vaccines; but not (yet) from the other two.

Clots are possible side affects? Source please @crazyguy.

I do not understand what other conclusions should be drawn if:
1.the disease is transmitted primarily through droplets dispersed in aerosols, and 2. masks are effective in blocking both inhalation and exhalation of those droplets. What other conclusion is to be drawn regarding the efficacy of masks toward inhibiting spread of the disease?

@stanleybmanly I think people aren’t factoring in the impact of just reducing viral load?

Many people think of it in black or white terms. Either blocking 100% or it’s pointless.

Though the grey area may be the difference between having a mild case and one that lands you in the hospital on a ventilator.

@raum Reducing viral load sounds great; however, when it takes just a touch of a contaminated surface followed by contact with the mouth to give a person covid, just how low does the load have to be?

Or have we disavowed that ‘science’?

Fomite transmission is possible, but unlikely.

It’s also not just about getting covid or not getting covid. It’s also about the severity of your symptoms if you do get it.

Also, there’s no need for quotes. That’s literally how science works. You have an idea (based off of past theories). You run an experiment. You adjust your theory according to the results. Rinse and repeat.

Guessing you weren’t a science major.

@crazyguy I thought the AstraZenica was found to not have more clots than the general population? Did you read something else?

“Contact with the mouth” would also be averted by a mask for obvious reasons. And why nitpick as to how much disease is filtered by masks, as long as the odds are better with a mask than without?

@raum Actually, I was an engineering major and had a lot of exposure to science. The reason I put quotes around the word is that the posters here believe in following the science, except the ‘science’ of covid has proven to be anything but!

The current ‘science” as it pertains to covid:

1. Vaccines are effective and safe.
2. However, even though a vaccinated person is protected enough to mingle with low-risk unvaccinated people in small groups without a mask, s/he should continue to wear a mask in public settings. Because of new mutations, or…
3. Even though Covid will not kill a vaccinated person, the vaccine may.

Correct me if I am wrong.

@JLeslie Interesting timing! As you know, we have just canceled J&J’s vaccine because of SIX serious clots in 70 MILLION people. Or, perhaps, we have not heard the full story yet…

@crazyguy I don’t know what you mean by cancelled. It’s on pause for investigation. My guess is the J&J will continue.

@JLeslie We shall see.

J&J can still be given now, but most states (maybe all) have decided to pause.

@JLeslie First, a confession. I messed up in my last post. I said 6 clots in 70 million doses. The fact is that J&J vaccines have been administered to only 7 million people. Not that it changes the occurrence rate significantly. It goes from an exceedingly low .000009% to a very low .00009%!

The fact that there was a pause should indicate that there is more to it than the raw number. I think we’ll learn soon as the FDA Advisory Panel meets…

@crazyguy It’s a new “drug” so it is normal to investigate a rare type of blood clot. Even if it wasn’t new it would be normal to investigate.

It’s not extremely unusual for a drug to show new problems when it goes to market. That’s why drugs are monitored and why we having reporting mechanisms. This is the first time the average person in the population is aware VAERS forms exist, and that they themselves can report an incident. That has always been the case, but most people did not know. I had an incident years ago, and the hospital that gave me the shot talked me out of getting the information from my chart, and I was an idiot young woman at the time and let them talk me out of it. I was lazy enough that I never filed the paperwork. I had it written out except for the batch number etc, and I just never mailed it. So there you go, under-reported. The hospital should have filed it themselves when I told them about it, but they saw fit to cover it up. What if it had been a contaminated batch and ten other people had the same problem I did? That’s the point of the reporting.

Another silver lining re covid is now the greater population knows they can report and not just for covid vaccines.

@JLeslie My VAERS input never asked me for the vaccine batch number, info I don’t have in any case. I have faithfully reported every time I have been asked that I have had zero symptoms after the vaccine, except for a bit of injection site pain.

@JLeslie Given the fact that the vaccine is incredibly efficacious, even more than the Phase 3 studies indicated, and the side effects are essentially none, why is the good news so hard to find?

@crazyguy The VAERS form I was talking about was over 25 years ago, and doctors usually filled them out. It was not on the internet, it was a paper form. You could turn it in without the complete information.

There is some good news being reported. For months they have said you can be unmasked with other vaccinated people. I saw a report two months ago of a city in Arizona that was very vaccinated and cases went way way down, but we need more reports like that. People doing their normal thing and cases going way down. The anti-vaxxers will still put messaging out there not to get vaccinated. That anti-vax crew argues measles disappeared from the US because conditions got cleaner not because of the vaccine and measles is a highly contagious airborne disease, not like cholera that has to do with sanitation. It makes no sense, but they buy it. Measles still comes back sometimes in small outbreaks.

@JLeslie For months they have said you can be unmasked with other vaccinated people. It was actually only last week that the CDC finally approved of what Floridians and inhabitants of a few other states have been doing for months:
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/daily-life-coping/participate-in-activities.html

Our illustrious President, who has been fully vaccinated for months, did not trust the guidelines of his own CDC, and wore a mask into a room where every person was vaccinated!

@JLeslie You are one of the few posters on this board with a relatively open mind. Please look at the facts and tell me in so many words that there is no evidence of news filtering and censorship by the media and the Democratic establishment. And, please, when you do that, keep your focus on the Democrats.

@crazyguy I freely admit there is spin and editing on both sides of the media bias with the intent to either push an agenda or make money.

In terms of censorship, that is a very complicated topic for me. I’m not sure I have the wherewithal to write it all out now. In short, I think it’s good messaging stemming from terrorists and treasonous organizations are being removed from publications including the internet. I do think some of the reach has gone overboard and it needs to be corrected, and I believe that is happening.

Keep in mind platforms like Facebook had more clicks and I assume making more money when they were reluctant to “censor.”

Also, don’t forget a lot of Floridians got very sick and also many of us died. DeSantis did not go far enough in protecting Floridians, but the media spins it like he did nothing all along, and that spin also in my opinion has killed Floridians.

Right now, I think the reporting continues to be inaccurate. Democrats make it sound like no one can wear a mask to stay safe, and that no entity can require a mask. False! Disney, supermarkets chains, doctors, will continue to require masks for now just like they have all along. My state has never had a state level mask order and yet we were all masking up in these places (most of us) at the request of the establishment.

@JLeslie I freely admit there is spin and editing on both sides of the media bias with the intent to either push an agenda or make money. I do not put any politician above putting his/her re-election above everything else. So I agree with you about the spin and editing on FOX as well as CNN.

I just asked a question about a CNN story about a supporter of our past President cheating on the last election. Please respond to it when you get a chance.

THEN, ask yourself why exactly, you have a negative gut reaction to the Georgia election reform.

@crazyguy: If Biden was in a room full of vaccinated people and he he didn’t have a mask on, the right wing media wouldn’t report that the people in the room were all vaccinated. The right wing media would just report “look at the hypocrite who mandates mask wearing and yet is indoors without a mask on.” Being a politician, and having to cover his a*s, he has no choice.

I agree with @jca2’s point. The Republicans will seize on it either way whether he wears a mask or not. I do think there is nothing wrong with someone in their late 70’s taking extra precautions. He is our president and it’s important to protect him from physical harm or illness.

I also think the Democrats went batshit crazy when Trump wasn’t wearing a mask when he was giving press conferences even though he responded more than once that he was distanced from the reporters. The problem with Trump was he made all sorts of contradicting statements and took all sorts of actions to support the anti-mask crowd. Dangerous messaging that really caused harm.

It’s these extremes in both political parties and both sides of media that lock us into not being able to be reasonable.

It actually should have been ok for Trump not to use a mask when speaking and distanced, like it was for so many health officials and politicians, and not ok that he had rooms full of people unmasked and crowds in the rose garden sitting right next to each other with no mask and all of his unmasked rallies.

It’s like we have lost our ability to be rational and moderate when it makes sense. People seem to not think ahead regarding how statements can backfire or be used against them later to be accused of hypocrisy. Again, both political sides of the aisle.

Covid never should have been political. It’s an embarrassment for our country.

It is my fondest hope that someone undertakes research on the casualty list of dumbbell Republicans in contrast to the overall population. From Herman Cain, through Chris Christie (who admits he was STUPID not to wear his mask) right through to the big orange king of the idiots himself who is personally responsible for God only knows how many hundreds of thousands of unnecessary cases of sickness and death. It would be interesting to discover whether covid has accomplished anything towards culling this country of its surplus of idiots.

@jca2 CDC guidelines on mask wearing were updated on April 29, five days ago. The State of the Union Message was given to a small number of the legislators and other government officials the same evening.

By wearing a mask in a sparsely populated chamber of other vaccinated folks, Biden undercut the guidelines of his own CDC. The defense offered later was that Biden was exercising extra caution, over and above the CDC guidelines. I suggest that neither you nor anybody else knows how Fox News would react to Biden following the CDC guidelines.

@JLeslie If the President of the US wants the US to reach herd immunity, you would think he should encourage the hesitant folks to take the jab. He could accomplish that by demonstrating confidence in the efficacy of the vaccine, rather than by casting doubt on it.

@crazyguy I think it’s complicated. Many ideas are correct. Encouraging confidence in the vaccine, still being cautious for much older people, still demonstrating an example of mask wearing being normal. It’s not like there is a single right and wrong.

The alt-right people are still pushing the idea that Democrats want to use covid to control everything, ruin business, and ruin the economy, because they are socialists who want to pay people for doing nothing. The Republicans are happy to pick up this rhetoric from the WS QAnon lunatics.

The Democrats are being led around also to some extent. Holding onto the idea vaccinated people might still shed virus, which is possible in my opinion, but an extremely remote risk. In a room of vaccinated people it doesn’t matter much if one person actually got sick and is shedding, because statistically the other people in the room are immune. There were several studies showing outdoor transmission is less than 10% of cases. The slogan “stay inside” wasn’t necessarily the best slogan

Democrats like to say Republicans are hateful and selfish and anti-science, but sometimes science is on the side of the Republicans, although there is a contingent of religious zealots and ignorant people in the Republican party who follow blindly totally false information that is completely unscientific and dangerous.

Both parties need to move on from covid being a wedge issue. It’s annoying.

The government has to balance policy during covid with how people will really act. Take for instance as an analogy social security. We could tell people put your own money in savings for old age and a whole bunch of people who can afford to won’t. So, the government forces people to save for their own good.

DeSantis told people go outside and exercise and distance and wear masks when you can’t distance and don’t have indoor dinner parties. Similar to save money for the future. All good advice. Half the Republicans and half the Democrats heard him say go outside have fun and covid is fake. That’s not what he said, but that’s what they heard, because they wanted to. That’s why mask orders are put in place. People don’t listen, so the government forces them to act in a safer manner. That’s also why it’s important for leaders to model behavior, people can’t sift through all the information, and they don’t want to hear contrary information.

@JLeslie Many ideas are correct. Who can possibly argue with that?

Democrats do want to pay people for doing nothing. There is no better way to engender loyalty.

vaccinated people might still shed virus, which is possible in my opinion, but an extremely remote risk. How about 5,800 out of 77 MILLION?

The slogan “stay inside” wasn’t necessarily the best slogan You are the mistress of understatement. That slogan lost as many lives as Cuomo did by his mandate that nursing homes shall accept COVID patients.

Democrats like to say Republicans are hateful and selfish and anti-science Yes, they do. And then they flaunt the so-called science themselves!

The government has to balance policy during covid with how people will really act. That ain’t happenin’, mainly because there is no re-election magic in that stance.

DeSantis told people go outside and exercise and distance and wear masks when you can’t distance and don’t have indoor dinner parties. Turns out, he was right, more than the CDC scientists!

@crazyguy….Biden was setting an example by wearing his mask. That’s what good presidents do.

@crazyguy DeSantis was not completely right, because his job is protect the residents of Florida, and they didn’t listen to him and he should have predicted they wouldn’t. Especially when they weren’t he should have done something. As a leader he should know better about how people will respond. He played too much politics, giving the crazy unscientific ignorant QAnon type followers the idea that they were right and supported by the governor. When you have a 3 year old you don’t explain a car hitting you might kill you and then let them cross the street themselves. A lot of people in my state and around the country are like 3 year olds. People all around me saying, “our governor believes we should have the right to make our own decisions,” but so many of those people were complete idiots. One of my former friends is still posting on facebook about how the truth will come out about the lies of covid and all these crimes against humanity will be punished and the vaccine inventors will all be put in jail.

I do take issue with some of what the CDC did, but I don’t think they every contradicted the idea that outside is safer than inside, did they?

I disagree more people died because of stay inside. More people would have died if everyone was out doing whatever they wanted, especially in the beginning when we were not wearing masks. No one was ever chained to their house. Where? Supermarkets were always open, people could take walks, bicycle, Some places were stricter than others, but no one could not leave their house in America, not that I know of.

I completely disagree Democrats want people to do nothing. I am sure you can find some who want to do nothing, but most want a job and to be paid fairly for their work. Republicans want to be able to pay lower taxes or no taxes on passive income, where they don’t have to do much of anything except take some risk I guess. You know why wealthy Republicans complain about people who get Medicaid and people who work the system? Because they do it themselves. They know what they get away with. Getting rid of their wealth and putting everything in the names of their children to be able to get coverage and discounts from utility companies etc. Their are lawyers who specialize in that type of advice who charge a lot of money, the poor cannot afford those lawyers. Or, they put all their expenses on their business to keep their income down and get social services and aren’t taxed.

@JLeslie WOW!

1. Government cannot and should not even try to be BIG BROTHER. If your constituents will not listen to reason, you have to make sure that others are protected; but you cannot force everybody to abide by the rules. I do not think there is a way of forcibly giving somebody covid except by force and we do have laws against that.

2. CDC was a pawn. Especially since Biden took over. Vaccines were invented under the former President, but became available more widely under Biden. CDC guidelines for vaccinated people have lagged behind reality sometimes by months. They did always say that the chances of infection are lower outdoors than indoors; however, they did not object when teenagers were forced to wear masks in athletic competition outdoors. As far as I know they still have not commented on the teenage girl who collapsed due to lack of oxygen at the finish line. See
https://news.yahoo.com/masks-still-required-youth-sports-001727864.html

3. Stay at home mandate. Gov. Gavin Newsom called on all Californians to stay at home, except for essential reasons like buying groceries or seeking medical care. This was back in March 2020. See
https://time.com/5806990/california-stay-at-home-order-coronavirus/
The problem, of course, was that the grocery store became a hotbed of covid infections. Once a person caught covid, the stay-at-home mandate made it easy to infect the entire family. Also, see
https://www.startribune.com/are-stay-at-home-orders-actually-helping/570450022/

4. Democrats want to give freebies to people. All you have to do is watch the Senate debate on the Sasse amendment:
https://www.c-span.org/video/?470652-18/senate-debate-sasse-amendment-economic-stimulus-bill

5. Tax evasion is absolutely legal. It is up to the Legislature to make the language of the legislation as leakproof as possible and the job of taxpayers and their accountants to look for and exploit loopholes. That has been the way the game was played ever since introduction of income taxes. Even the so-called flat tax will require allowances for expenses for a self-employed person.

@crazyguy I disagree with so much of what you just wrote. I don’t have the stamina tonight to respond to it all.

@crazyguy You still act like a Troll !

@crazyguy…
(SIGH!)

@Strauss Sounds like you just gave up!

I’m fully vaccinated but I wear a mask so folks around me will feel comfortable.

They are still very much the routine here, and required virtually everywhere.

May 2021 – Masks are still the law here in public places (NY/CT tri-state area).