I would guess in America they are frustrated with the parts of the religious right wanting to rewrite American history, make laws that don’t agree with the beliefs of others, basically if they want to force their belief system on others by legislating it. The theists who don’t do that don’t usually come under fire here or anywhere in my experience. Once in a while there is some fanatic atheist who just wants to start a fight and is very outspoken, which I find to be true in every group.

I would bet most atheists who “bait” theists, as you call it, also pay a lot of attention to politics. I could be wrong. Hopefully, someone will correct me if they think I am.

@Adirondackwannabe – You’ve been here long enough, and I know that you have been engaged in more than a handful of conversations where this exact question was beat to death. Either you have completely forgotten everything you have learned in these discussions, or you are simply trying to stir the pot again.

I think it’s a valid question and good that it’s put out there.

I think the same thing all the time, every time I see a religious question on here. I think (and I’ve said on many threads) “why can’t we all just get along?” (quote from Rodney King after the riots in LA in the 1990’s, after King got beaten by LAPD on video).

I feel like atheists (and it’s often the same one or two) are looking to stir the shit themselves, not @Adirondackwannabe by asking the question.

You believe what you believe, I believe what I believe, it is what it is. I don’t hear theists on Fluther asking.

Where exactly do we draw the line between ‘valid discussion point’ and ‘baiting’?

If I had to guess, my theory would be that some atheists hope they will eventually convince some theists to change their minds. I doubt very highly that being derisive is the way to go about it, though.

It could also just be a phase with new atheists. I’ve done my share of baiting in the past, but I haven’t discussed religion in awhile because I don’t care about it anymore.

Some people dealt with religious parents and communities that suppressed freethought, so they find the internet where they can say whatever they want and it’s a place to vent frustrations.

I think that, if anything, it’s simply part of a person’s personality. I’ve seen atheists bait theists, theists bait atheists, conservatives bait liberals, and liberals bait conservatives. The act of “baiting” is independent of the underlying opinion.

Because evil must be opposed.

I think you have it 100% backwards.

Atheists are doing their innocent thing. Theists take umbrage at the possibility that other people don’t think as they do, and heap it on the atheists for not subscribing to the theists’ particular flavor of god that week.

It’s the god folk that can’t stand it that people don’t buy into their life view, primarily because the theists have so much of their self image in their religion, that the perceive non-belief as a threat.

As i’ve said many times before, I don’t care what you choose to believe in, none of my business. So long as you’re not banging on my door telling me that “Jesus saves” then it’s all good.

I think it has a LOT to do with the way that Atheists are perceived (in the United States) as NOT being American. (When the Bushes were President(s) – they stated that “ATHEISTS COULD NOT BE CONSIDERED TO BE AMERICAN CITIZENS”)

Because they are stupid, clearly. They think they know how the world works and they think they are the owners of the truth – the exact same quality that they blame the theists for. I don’t care what you believe in, but when you think you know the truth better than anybody else, that’s when I’m pissed, theist or atheist.

If we could all just recognize the difference between knowledge and belief, and if we could realize that no one can know anything for real, we would let each other believe what ever we want.

This is either the biggest piece of shit thread I’ve seen on fluther, or people are intentionally trying to pull me in by shitting on their keyboards just typing a bunch of confused shit that they’ve been called on many times before – here.

@tom_g for serious. Ironically, this question is pretty baity.

Tag! You’re it!

@Seek_Kolinahr, yep. If this was asked by someone new, I would have no problem going through this again. It’s only a legitimate question when it’s someone new – or at least if it’s coming from a different angle. But to trot out the “do we all have to think the same way” stuff, again is absurd. Dig deeper, people. If it’s still bugging you, either hit the old threads or find some specific thing to ask as atheists about that isn’t something we’ve answered a hundred times.

Because Atheists are smarter than Theists. It is their duty to save us from eternal salvation. They are the pinnacle of human consciousness, having evolved to a higher level of being… Destined to become the very gods they would have us reject out of stupidity.

“I want only the mean atheists to answer.” Oh wait there are only mean atheists, right? When asking questions is in and of itself an offense, this kind of question gets very tired. And we have seen it before, several times.

Anyway, @Adirondackwannabe, it seems to me that you are just riffing off your annoyance towards a specific jelly. Why don’t you just PM your concerns to him, and leave the rest of us out of it?

Why can’t we all just get along? Atheists in your corner, theists in your corner, let’s just leave this topic alone? People have left Fluther because they’ve felt attacked, nothing changes, people’s beliefs are not going to change because of what they read on the internet, yet the question still rears its ugly head. The same person asks the same question but in different ways, and it seems designed to incite hate and division, as @augustlan pointed out.

@jca “it seems designed to incite hate and division, as @augustlan pointed out.”

Wow. That’s not what she said. And I, for one, don’t think it’s true.

Yeah, @jca, she didn’t say that.

Anyhow, I wish that a certain jelly would drop it, but he continues. Not much you can do, but ignore his questions if it upsets you.

@Adirondackwannabe Did you send the Q to the atheists whom you think tend to bait most often? I think the question is just fine, wanting to know the intent of the people who tend to stir things up would be interesting know. I don’t feel I tend to start the stirring, but when I get into a conversation with a theist, my goal is often for people not to judge or assume anything about another person based on religious beliefs. Secondly, if they are Christians (I realize not all thests are Christiansm but I am talking specifically about Christians for this because they are the majority in America) who seem fairly narrow minded (I am only talking about the Christians who are narrow minded, not the majority of Christians) I want them to try and put themselves in the other person’s shoes. Think about what laws they would want for religious freedom if their country was a majority of a different belief. I do want to change their mind about trying to turn the country into a theocracy, or if they fail t have respect for other religions, but I have no desire to change their mind about their personal beliefs. They can believe whatever they want, I am happy to attend and celebrate the baptisms of their children, communions, and other rituals of whatever religion my friends accept as their own.

You know how when you get a little sore in your mouth, you keep worrying at it with the tip of your tongue even when you know that’ll only make it sorer? I think this issue has that same kind of perversely compelling quality to it.

@thorninmud

Kind of like what our mamas used to tell us “Leave it Alone! Quit picking at it or it will get infected”.

Alighty then, do you really think atheists are picking more than theists? In general? Out there in the real world? You get what you give, at least to some extent.

I think on Fluther, the atheists keep bringing up this topic. I don’t see it brought up by theists, as questions, at all (if I am mistaken, please forgive me).

@jca I could link a couple of recent ones. Perhaps they just aren’t catching your eye as much.

@glacial: Maybe. I’m also on and off Fluther a lot during the work day, but not always paying full attention.

I would appreciate any links to the questions, because I can’t recall them.

@jca I think direct questions like this possibly are brought up by atheists more here on fluther. I’m not going to agree it is always baiting, but definitely looking for discussion, answers and understanding.

I would say that during many different discussions that don’t start with religion it can quickly turn that way. Raising children, punishment, politics, education, and other topics. If religious people ground their views on those things in their religion it is hard to separate the two, and then they might feel their religion is being attacked, when actually we are arguing about the behaviors, if the religious person can simply only discuss the behaviors and look at the evidence. I don’t mean evidence related to God, I have no problem with people believing in God.

I don’t doubt my views. Just reaching out to those who might be like I was when I began to seek another answer. I had no help at all but I found my way. I think Atheists want to be helpful to others this way.

Funny, I have a friend who is becoming an atheist, and I am in a way sad to hear it, even though I am an atheist. I just know in the past believing in God and being Catholic meant a lot to her. I guess I just don’t understand why she needs to give up her belief in God. That sort of thing is hard for me to understand.

Personally, I think it’s frustration that they can’t change most of us from believing in what atheists perceive as a fairytale.

My vote for what I believe in affects THEIR world, too, and as @Seek_Kolinahr has said, her son’s world. I really do get that. And since God and my belief in God affects my vote, it’s a valid concern.

Some Christians make the rest of us look bad.
Some atheists make other atheists look bad.
Some Democrats make Democrats look bad.
Some Republicans make Republicans look bad.

If anyone wants to change my mind or my vote on an issue, they’ll need to be calm and have a rational discussion that excludes antagonistic language, and so far there’s like two people on fluther who have ever tried that approach. Believe it or not, they get a LOT of respect from me, and I will always listen to what they say.

Or we can allow Christians to continue to be encouraged to be silent here (or back down from these Q’s), and continue letting them leave fluther since they are not a valued segment of this particular society (self-evident.)

I’m not backing down or leaving.

I don’t bait theists, but it seems impossible around here to discuss religion without one opposing view or another being perceived as an attack, or a misunderstanding of what was said. If I don’t agree, it must mean I’m an asshole, or that I don’t understand. I just say fuck it most of the time, discussing religion or lack thereof sucks.
I’m gonna name names here, so flag if you must, I don’t give a shit. Surprisingly enough, Hypocrisy Central is one of the only religious people here that I discuss with and we barely ever agree, yet, we’re still mature about it. We get along quite well, even if our views on this constantly clash. But never any name calling or anything.
Why does it happen? Fucks if I know, maybe people don’t like their views challenged, they just want to be right all the time, who knows…not that I’m singling out Fluther. Any website I’ve ever been to is like that with religion, and politics.

@Seek_Kolinahr Where exactly do we draw the line between ‘valid discussion point’ and ‘baiting’?
I would say IMO that baiting begins and conversation ends when one starts to use unflattering terms or alludes that the person because of their beliefs or religion is deranged, akin to belief in Bigfoot, the Easter Bunny, Santa, Unicorns, or derogatory references like “Sky Daddy”, etc is used. Would one use such unflattering terms we all know when speaking of gays or would we be respectful of how we said things? For that fact, political parties, nationalities, or genders, we don’t sit around here and call women broads, and such like it might have been 45 years ago.

@augustlan If I had to guess, my theory would be that some atheists hope they will eventually convince some theists to change their minds. I doubt very highly that being derisive is the way to go about it, though.
TRUE THAT! Even if someone was to slather it with honey, sprinkle it with sugar, top it with whipped cream, they could not get me to go back to being a non-believer. I have filet mignon in front of me, why would I want to go back to Spam (not that Spam is not tasty)?

Here is what I think (and it is only what I think, it isn’t in the Bible), besides, I won’t see the maelstrom of indignation until tomorrow anyhow, that atheist try so hard to debunk or get believers to say they are wrong is because atheist or so afraid believers are right. If atheist are right, no one will ever know it, not even they. If believers are right, they will know it and be stuck like Chuck for all eternity dealing with it. Pasqual’s Wager or whatever, that 50% chance that they are wrong and will pay for the error an eternity scares the heebee jeebees out of them; so they fight every inch to proof there is no God so they don’t have to fear eternal damnation.There, I said it, and I am sticking to it, let your fiery darts fly. I have marshmallows, chocolate, and graham crackers I will just make s’mores

Absolutely, hypo.

Maybe I’ll go die in battle and take the 50% chance I’ll go to Valhalla.

Not even close to 50%. Even if we assume all the gods we know about are the only options, and that it’s equally likely one if those gods exist than no gods exist, that knocks you down to 0.0003% chance you’re right.

Freaking Win7 hotkeys…!

@Hypocrisy_Central “Here is what I think (and it is only what I think, it isn’t in the Bible), besides, I won’t see the maelstrom of indignation until tomorrow anyhow, that atheist try so hard to debunk or get believers to say they are wrong is because atheist or so afraid believers are right.”

Of course, I can only speak for myself when I say that isn’t the case. But I think it’s unlikely overall as well, since… it takes belief in the possibility of a god to actually fear that there might be one. Maybe you’ll catch some agnostics in that net, who knows.

I don’t know why Pascal’s wager keeps coming into these discussions. The Christian god doesn’t want to be anyone’s fallback position. He’s too jealous for that.

Relgion + Fluther = boring shitstorm…who knew?

@ucme I’ve never talked about religion this much in my entire life, and I’m in the Bible Belt, geesh. :) Totally bored.

@KNOWITALL I guess that says it all :)

I have actually read some atheists believe that a belief in God is dangerous and that the more people who realize that, the better off we will all be.

There is also the point of view that the more people who are willing to take responsibility for their own behavior rather than blame it on the teachings of a God, the better off we will all be.

@glacial – I’ve noticed that Pascal’s Wager sometimes pops up as a whole and in many times only in part yet not all even know they are using it or that Pascal did it first. (Or who Pascal even was.) It seems to be a general catch-all logic basis for those who think Atheists should believe or else.

I found some atheist bait. Use this if you want to catch the elusive atheist in its natural habitat.

lol @Blackberry

Thanks for all of your answers. There were a lot of positive answers. For those jellies that thought I was baiting I was, but not for the reasons you thought. I was trying to get both sides to think of the opposites viewpoint. I had no atheist in mind when I wrote this. I was thinking of all my theist friends and how their views get attacked at times. But why can’t we respect other’s views and not attack them? I was surprised by some of the venom, but screw it, I’m a big boy. It’s not going to bother me. I just hope a few jellies have picked up a bit from this.

Oh, please.

@glacial Whatever you want to think. When you can read my mind I’ll let you know.

Night guys. Thanks for all of your input. Go easy and take care of your other jellies. And if you don’t want to do that you can bite me. Just my opinion.

@Adirondackwannabe You’re a sweetie, and I appreciate all you do to further understanding and especially cooling me down when I get a little heated in some Q’s. :)

No one ever answers me re: the line between discussion and ‘baiting’. I mean, hypo did, but with a non sequitur. People don’t choose to be gay or black. They do choose their belief systems.

@Seek_Kolinahr Discussion is not judgement.

You and I can talk about religion and how it affects you & your son, and I listen and I think, that is the purpose of communication to me.

If you use verbage that is derogatory and belittling, it is no longer communicating, it is judging and being mean because someone holds a different belief system than you do. Basically some of the language used here actually halts all communication, so it shows a lack of courtesy and maturity that most adults use when talking to each other. I’ve done it when I’ve lost my temper and lots of people here have done it.

It’s just a shame that the F word is more acceptable here than God.

@KNOWITALL “It’s just a shame that the F word is more acceptable here than God.”

I tend to agree. Certainly every time I use the word god, I get kicked in the teeth for it.

Oh, God you both. that should get me modded

Just an attempt at humor/sarcasm guys ;)

@glacial I’m no prude or innocent, by any means, I just don’t get the hypocrits taking such joy from putting others down or purposefully being offensive in a Q about religion or something.

Well, when one is serially baited, I suppose every once in a while one has to relish a bite. That is, after all, the point of questions like this one, isn’t it?

@glacial Are you saying that religious Q’s are perhaps perceived as ‘baiting’ the non-theists?

@KNOWITALL No, I’m saying that questions about what we should and shouldn’t ask here bait both sides, and pit one person against another for no reason. It’s always motivated by the asker being upset by a specific question, so I don’t see why they need to make a phony generalization, when they really just want to talk to one person. The generalization pisses me off, and just encourages me to leave ironic comments in threads I probably shouldn’t.

@glacial haha, I get it. As adults, I’m sure we know what is and what isn’t okay to say, and sometimes we choose to do it or say it anyway. On a Q&A site like this, there really aren’t any repercussions for bad ‘social’ behavior.

I’m not quite certain at all what is and isn’t ok to say. Most of my comments in religious discussions have come to be written in almost legalese, and still I’m accused of being insulting, insensitive, and baiting. It appears nigh on impossible to dare have an opinion on the topic, or to state a fact. If something is written, there is invariably someone who will take personal exception. In fact, just yesterday there was a question about how Christians pray, and someone was insulted because they don’t pray at all, and how dare we assume such a thing!

I’ve said it many times. No one is the Steward of another’s feelings, and those who traipse about looking for any opportunity to be offended are a serious deterrent to use of this site.

@Seek_Kolinahr I listen to you because I care about you, and I know you have issues with religion/ faith/ God but I can’t allow you or anyone else to take it your anger or bad experiences out on me, or even your frustration with gay-bashing religious people, cause I’m not them.

When we first met, you explained a little about your family & religion. More recently you’ve mentioned how religion affects your son. I do take time to try to understand, but if you or anyone else want to use me as a Christian whipping post, it’s just not going to happen.

You can be polite without being rude or ugly, I’ve seen you do it. We’re cool as far as I’m concerned, all I can do is take each person for what and who they are, which I’d hope all of us try to do.

Oh please. Whipping post? Links. Now.

I’m so over this victim song.

(controlling temper).....You are the one playing that victim card by using your childhood as an excuse to hate God and all of us who worship Him. Don’t you see that?

I do no such thing.

I do not hate god. That would be pointless, as I do not believe in god.

I do not hate believers as such. That would take a great deal of energy. I hate, with great vehemence, the actions of those who would place their religion in a place of public prominence, and nonbelievers and those of other faiths be damned.

I have to kind of laugh at the idea that you honestly believe I do what I do and say what I say because I’m mad at my mommy. My mommy isn’t even religious. My bad childhood and my former religion are completely unrelated. Not that it matters. Facts are facts, regardless of how happy the childhood of the person speaking them was.

By the by, if anything could be considered baiting, bringing up a person’s personal history to discredit their point would certainly qualify, I should think.

So it’s not ok to call god imaginary, but it’s ok to data mine past questions for personal attacks?

Everybody to your fucking corners.

Enough with the religious questions, the attacks, the hate, the arguments. Everyone keep believing what you believe, because Fluther is not going to change it.

‘bye.

Damn you, @Seek_Kolinahr. You closed you’re account!? You can’t leave. I’m going to have @augustlan track you down, reopen your account, and force you to keep posting.

^ your

@Seek_Kolinahr I didn’t mine anything, I remembered because I care about you. It’s unfortunate that you don’t see it that way.

@jca Agreed.

@glacial Of course, I can only speak for myself when I say that isn’t the case. But I think it’s unlikely overall as well, since… it takes belief in the possibility of a god to actually fear that there might be one.
I know there are no other gods, there is not an inking of evidence to support they were more than a notion of people in a specific era. The manuscripts of the Bible span centuries and always point to God. Experiences I have had by way of God, I know Him to be true. Can I explain those experiences to you in ways you would understand? I can’t, it would be as if I were an cosmonaut trying to explain weightlessness to you; if you have never been in a zero gravity environment one can never really know what it is like.

If you atheist are correct no one, not even you guys, will know it. You will know that you been shot, fell off a cliff, got stabbed by an attacker, etc, but at the moment death takes you (unless I got it wrong), you will cease to exist; “poof” off to oblivion, the great white zephrum, never, never land, etc. You will no longer exist to have a memory of what happened. Just as those pitchers or batters that take a shot to the head and are knocked out cold, they did not know they were cold cocked by the ball until they regained consciousness; according to atheist if you died, you just died, the last thing you would see would be a ball rocketing off the bat headed for your noggin and that is it; you’d never know you were tagged in such a way as to kill you.

If I follow a faith at is not real, and I died, I would not know it, but I would have lived a good life without strife with my fellow man (not that unbelievers could not do the same). However, taking God is real, when one dies they know they are dead, but it is too late to change your fate. If I died and there was no God, I have lost nothing. If I die to stand before God as an unbeliever then I have lost all, and I will have an eternity to think about it. If you believe I will go “poof” with you upon death, why care if I have faith in God before I go; especially when it means I will more than likely do anything to cause you or any other person or atheist harm or injury?

<runs naked and screaming through the room>

OH FOR FUCK’S SAKE!!!

I think I thought I saw you cry…that’s me in the corner.

@ucme You always come through with a good laugh, buddy. :)

@KNOWITALL Then my work here is done, bless you my child :D

@Hypocrisy_Central – Why not quote all of Pascal’s Wager? You were on a roll!

Hey, @ucme was that you in the spot light? Have you lost something?

And I don’t know if I can do it
Oh no i’ve said too much
I haven’t said enough
Consider this…

Wow. What a shit thread. There are some real assholes on Fluther. I’ll leave it at that.

^^ You say that like it’s a new thing, twas forever thus.

True enough. But if this question wasn’t designed to flame bait, I don’t know what it.
Mission accomplished.

In defense of this Q and @Adirondackwannabe, I’ve received many PM’s from theist’s feeling attacked and appreciating that the issue is now out in the open. I have lost a tentative friendship over this issue and it’s unfortunate, but for the greater good, it’s probably a good thing.

I learned a lot from this thread. I learned that there is no value in trying to spare feelings on this issue. None. It doesn’t work. Honest, open debate is the only way to go. I’ll be no longer responding to claims of offense.

@KNOWITALL Well good, then let one of them ask this question next time.:) Fortunately I have a thick skin, but wow. I expected a few sparks putting that out there, I didn’t expect some of the responses.

I think if anybody knows @Adirondackwannabe, they know he’s not the flame baiting type. I think this question was asked with good intentions and I find it ironic that it dissolved into what it did. I agree that on Fluther, the theists write that they feel attacked more than the atheists do. I also find it ironic that one who has been involved in many of these arguments and was the subject of those accusations is the one who left.

It wasn’t intended as flame bait but I did word it to insure a response. I figured the passions weren’t quite that strong. Oops.

@jca When I joined, I came out about my religion after seeing theists bashed and mocked for months. With so many PM’s over the years, I know I’m not alone in that.

It was a big decision for me because I am a secular Christian who doesn’t attend church much for a variety of reasons. That doesn’t diminish my faith or love or humbleness before my God though.

She’s a tough girl, she can handle it, just like I’ve handled all the nasty posts directed to me and others here.

@Adirondack Your question was fine, it’s up to all of us how we handle ourselves.

@tom_g Oh, were you holding back on us before this? lol

<Farts> Err, more tea vicar?

@ucme You’re ‘The Cooler’...lol

More comedy, less religious discussion= happiness

YOU WANT COMEDY?!

I’m going to speak for myself here as a theist, and nobody else. I’m not on here to win friends, to be respected, to be popular or get followers for another site. I treat this site like I do others, being that I’m here to debate certain issues, or when I can, help others.

I’ve also learnt that on fluther, like on any other site, you can be civil, treat others with respect and still have people dislike you for one or more reasons. Maybe I’m one of the few theists who don’t mind their own views being challenged, and I’m usually up for a decent, civil discussion.

I’ll add one more thing here. When a theist or religionist tells people that they’ll burn in hell for eternity, criticize another religion or when they use faith to deny scientific evidence then they have to be expected to be called out on this. I do believe there’s a time and place for discussions of this nature though, and perhaps some people go too far with trying to provoke an argument.

No, the motivation comes from the view that debates are the fuel of progress.

FWIW, I find it quite ironic that several folks on this thread (and similar threads in the past) who claim to feel attacked, are usually the first to attack others.

I find it sad that Fluther seems to be gradually disintegrating because of the repetitive douchebaggery. It’s just not possible to have a decent conversation about religion or politics here, no matter who tries to initiate a civil discussion or debate. Because it’s NEVER a civil discussion or debate here. Religious “debate” here always becomes, “Well, theists are delusional morons who belong in a padded cell for believing in a sky daddy,” and “You’re a complete asshole for making such an untrue statement.” Oh, except the asshole comment gets modded off even though it’s no more offensive than the delusional sky daddy comment.

For political questions, just substitute the words republican and stupid in the place of theist and delusional. Such is the way of Fluther, and it will apparently never change. Fluther is stagnant, and will never go anywhere like this. It really is sad.

I see what you did there.

Meh. This is the internet. Baiting happens. All sides on all issues are guilty. I prefer debate, because it occasionally achieves something (even on the internet).

I have less problems with athiests baiting theists, because fundamentally they are correct, even if they’re kinda jerks about it, or don’t know their material very well.