Look at your fourth paragraph. You have three Jane did not approve of’s. Enough said.

My house == chaos. Always. There are boxes and projects being worked on, crazy contraptions, forts, and all kinds of absurdity (I’m never sure what I will find in the freezer). But my wife and I feel that this type of behavior is important.

The tricky part becomes balancing the chaos and the real need to clean up projects that are no longer being used. This is often where the friction lies. And I know some parents that are not willing to engage in that type of friction with their kids, so they just don’t allow it to happen in the first place.

Because I am a neatnik, I’m not sure if I tolerated enough chaos in my house when the kids were little. I wish I had been more relaxed but it is a balancing act between your own level of tolerance on any given day and letting the kids do their kid things. (That’s partly what “go play outside” was created for.)

Interesting question. “Chaos” as related to kids is such a subjective concept. The situation you cited did not seem to describe how parents are, but how the grandmother was in a not-usual circumstance for her (stressed, not feeling well).

That said, to answer the main question, as much chaos as the environment can stand. My house was always in a state of controlled chaos, projects happening then interrupted, stuff always going on, kids, dogs, cats, little friends over, etc. Out in public, or at others’ houses, it varied depending on circumstance.

Kids can have a lot of energy and adults, usually not so much. It takes a lot to keep up with a kid. My mom and stepfather babysit for my daughter a lot, and luckily she’s a pretty calm kid. Still, kids like attention and they need to get that energy out. The things you described (fort, playing outside) are things I think Jane could have let them do and but maybe in the “play outside” example, Jane didn’t have clean, dry clothes for them to put on when they came back in. As far as making a fort goes, she could have laid in bed if she wanted and just let them do their thing. Watercolors, same thing. Knock yourselves out, kids, Grandma’s going to sit here with her cup of tea. I think of “chaos” as more making a big noisy disaster in the house (or out).

Have a sound insulated chaos room.

At first blush it seems watercolors and fort should be easy and fun activities. BUT is there some history? For example: did the kids play fort 2 weeks ago and start throwing pillows around? Did they break the Tiffany lamp over the dinging room table when they tossed the pillow? Did they not clean up after playing with water colors last time – especially when Jane asked them too? When they came in from outside did they not always take off their shoes so they didn’t track in mud? Did they ignore her when she said it was time to put things away? Did kids whine about not wanting to stop when it was time to eat/leave?

I tended to be very permissive with my kids because they followed the rules. “The laser is dangerous. You can play with it but you must keep it on the ground.” “You can use the radios as walkie-talkies but you may only stay on Channel 3dot8” If they violate the rules the stuff was put away until they are old enough to try again.

Is it possible that is what she is doing? By the way Grandparents should always have an extra set of clothes in the house. It is the parent’s job to supply them.

Ugh! “dining room table” not “dinging…” (Wild activities are fine in the dinging room!)

One more comment…and possibility…. When Grandparents tried to control or admonish misbehavior di the parents back them up?
Grandparent: OK kids! Time to clean up the water colors.
Precious: Awwww do we have to? I want to keep playing…..
Parent: OK Precious, you may play for 10 more minutes.

(If that was my house the water colors would be back in the attic for 4 more months.)

@LuckyGuy makes a good point about the parents not contradicting the requests of the grandmother.

Parents should allow a good amount of chaos in their lives. Kids need that kind energy.

Grandparents, on the other hand, should do whatever they feel comfortable with. They’ve already raised their kids. Whatever they feel up to doing with the grandkids is just a bonus.

Good point @fluthernutter. My father was a big part of the chaos. He loved fun. We sometimes got dinged up together too, but I wouldn’t give those times back for anything.

Poor grandma. Kids are gonna make a mess—it’s their JOB. The trick lies in confining it to a single room, as well as seeing to it that they NEVER are allowed to leave before cleaning it up (within limits of their ability). The best solution, weather permitting, is to hustle the little criminals outside, where they can run themselves ragged. When confined indoors, kids will “settle” for crayons and marker sets as opposed to water colors, and there are some great coloring books out there that can keep even a stuffy adult busy coloring along.

Is this her usual response? Does she always quash them?

When our kids were around, we treated our house as one big workshop/laboratory/studio. Furnishings were strictly functional and not at all precious. Surfaces (walls, floors, counter tops, etc.) were basically sacrificial. Tools and materials were generally not hidden away; they lived out on wire racks where they formed an integral part of the decor (such as it was).

This was a choice. My wife and I relinquished any aspirations to decorating our home to our taste, or having “nice things”. Aesthetics weren’t ever considered. The result was that it didn’t have much of a “home” feel to it at all, and wasn’t a place we felt comfortable inviting any but the most intimate guests into. There were times when I was acutely aware of what we had given up in this choice.

But more was gained than lost, I think. Having been very much a “project kid” myself, I wanted to raise our kids with as few impediments to tackling projects as reasonably possible. Not having to worry overly much about potential scuffing and staining and denting allowed us parents to wholeheartedly welcome their initiatives instead of stressing about them. Having all of those tools and materials around and in sight gave the kids a ready source of inspiration and a sense of potential.

On the downside, I suspect that our kids’ own homes will never be featured in “House Beautiful”. We never taught them how to make and care for a lovely home. They’d better have tolerant spouses.

“Organised” chaos is what kids are all about & it’s fantastic fun.
You can’t make an omelette without breaking eggs.

@thorninmud Were you looking in my windows when you wrote that? I call the decor “Early American Dormitory and Lab.” Computers, optics, radio equipment, lab test equipment are all out. The kitchen walls are “decorated” with National Geographic maps.
It is a bit of an embarrassment but well worth it.
Your kids (and mine) benefited from our “sacrifice”

@thorninmud I’m curious about this comment you made: “The result was that it didn’t have much of a “home” feel to it at all”.

Usually, I think of a well-lived in, chaotic house as having more of a home feel, not less. Conversely, I think houses that look like they’ve been copied from the pages of style magazines do not feel like homes at all. When you think of a “home”, do you think of something that is superficially (or perhaps even deeply) pretty, or as a place where a person or family is comfortable?

@dappled_leaves I think they mean when the home starts feeling more like a laboratory or studio workspace. It’s cozy. But not exactly habitable in the traditional sense of the word.

For instance, we have a big painting project in the middle of the kitchen. And a large cardboard ship in our dining room.

No one actually lives in the spreads featured in “House Beautiful.” They are essentially stage sets.

@gailcalled I’ve known people who supposedly inhabit these staged sets. It’s kind of creepy. And creepier still if they have kids.

@dappled_leaves Good questions. I used “home” to mean a space that reflects your personal preferences in a living environment. Our house reflected more a repression of our personal preferences in favor of experience opportunities for the kids.

Once the kids had moved out we began to tentatively ask ourselves, “What would we actually like for this space to be like?”, and make some moves in that direction. It shocked both of us to realize that this was something we had never before actually taken into consideration. We haven’t really done much yet, but now when I look around, my eye occasionally falls on something that we did just because we thought it would be nice that way, and a faint glimmer of home-ness wells up.

My idea of raising kids

And This

Kids in cages

Just turn them loose.

@thorninmud Thanks, that’s interesting. I don’t have kids, but I think it would be very difficult for me to live in a space and not gradually shape the way it looks into something I find comfortable and/or beautiful, even if the space had other functions/priorities. I’m no designer, but place and space are extremely important to me for some reason. This seems to be increasingly true as I get older.

@fluthernutter ”@gailcalled I’ve known people who supposedly inhabit these staged sets. It’s kind of creepy. And creepier still if they have kids.”

Yes, exactly – I have, too. I read @thorninmud‘s comment with this in mind, and he just doesn’t strike me as the kind of person who would do that. This is why I felt compelled to ask about it.

^^ Possible prediction. Somewhere along your leisurely process of personalizing your spaces, you will start to feel burdened by possessions and their maintenance. Then suddenly you want to simplify,

When I now have visitors who admires something in my home, I practically hire a moving van and have it sent to them.

@gailcalled: I know the song. I seem to have skipped the “nice home” phase between “college student apartment style suitable for kids” and “oh god I have too much crap get it OUT” phase, where I am now. Well, my kids were happy here, I’m still happy here. A lot can be said for comfy.

@gailcalled Well… I don’t equate shaping my space with acquiring a lot of stuff. I’ve downsized a few times already, and move every five years or so (perils of student living). But I think it’s fair to say that every place I live reflects my own personality.

@dappled_leaves Yes, me too. I’m not in the acquiring mode any more but my environment is very important to my state of mine. I’m glad I bought my house which is big for one person but not overlarge as part of the divorce.

I’m slowly moving things out as we speak. Give a kid this, give another kid that….

When children are at the age where they start crawling and getting into things, and NO LATER, light punishment must be administered via a rolled-up newspaper. Once they figure out that the newspaper doesn’t actually cause pain, they will be on their way to be properly trained because they will have learned to respect the wielder of the newspaper!

Funny comment to add on to what @gailcalled said. A while back (in the Regis and Kelly days), Regis was telling Kelly that House Beautiful or one of those magazines did a spread on his house in Connecticut and he opened the magazine and said “where’s this?” He said it was so unrecognizable because they put new furniture and decor in it for the spread, he did not recognize it at all.

Edit: “my state of mind” not “state of mine.” Freudian slip, I guess, “L’etat c’est moi.”

@kritiper People don’t even advocate that kind of training for puppies anymore.

And we all know that puupies are easier to train than toddlers!

@dappled_leaves And, hence, the trouble we have with people and kids today…

@kritiper – Right. And now with the death of the newspaper, are we supposed to beat our kids and puppies with our phones and tablets? What about the fragile screens?

Once my kids got a hold of a spool of thread and created a giant spider web that took up the entire living room. For 3 days every time I wanted to get to the front door I had to crawl under that web!
I give my grand kids spools of threads, with instructions, but so far none of them have done it.

@hominid (yawn) Try your local art supply store for similar products that should suffice if your local newspaper has already materially expired from it’s former format.

Your question asked to what extent should PARENTS allow their children create chaos, but the details refer to a situation with the GRANDMOTHER.

Generally, I think children have to have freedom to create mess, to explore, to have projects on the go and to let off steam in their own home. So I think parents should expect some degree of chaos in their own homes if they have children who are living full, happy lives.

However, if the children are visiting their grandparents, I don’t think they should be free to create chaos. Unless the grandparent is formally in charge of the childrens’ care on a regular basis (say while the parents work), it’s not reasonable for the children to come into their grandmother’s home and make a mess. You also didn’t say whether the parents were present while the children were visiting so I’m not sure whether they, or the grandmother, were in charge of the children. Of course if she’s their formal carer while parents work, I’d say chaos is part of that deal. Children need space and freedom to be children. Perhaps she could go to their home instead of them coming to hers if that’s a problem.

Wow, this took off quickly.

Thanks for your opinions, I’m glad most of Fluther is in agreement on this.

To be clear: I am not judging Jane at all. I like her, and I doubt she is always like this. Because I am not usually there when she’s taking care of the kids, I can’t comment on how unusual this occurrence was. To answer your questions: Yes, the kids spend a lot of time at Jane’s house. Almost every school day, for a while. No, the parents were not there, and Jane has full authority. None of her kids would overrule her, they are mostly on the same page regarding parenting.