Nixon’s mental health was questioned fairly seriously, particularly in the weeks before he resigned. There are stories of him talking to paintings and the bust of George Washington.

If I remember correctly, there was some worry about Nixon killing himself, although that may just be apocryphal.

Probably not. But then I can’t think of any previous president that’s goaded an enemy into starting a nuclear war.

Not in my time. Trump is even making his supporters question his sanity. Personally I think he believes he’s funny, but someone needs to hide that keyboard.

They hid Woodrow Wilson’s health from the public and his wife was running the government for a while.

Apparently, it’s acceptable to pretend to be able to diagnose someone’s mental health from our couches. It’s also ok to contribute to the idea that mental illness is dangerous and unusual.

It certainly CAN be dangerous @thisismyusername. Lots of really bad crimes, are committed by people with severe mental illness who don’t have the capacity to understand the consequences. Trump appears to be that kind of person.

If you read the article you’ll see that it’s not just an everyday Joe who is expressing their opinion from their couch. It’s a trained professional who has been watching him closely.

And yes, it’s acceptable for us to share our own opinions on the man, and anyone else, from our couch.

There is nothing in terms of policy that Trump has supported that the Republicans have been squawking about for decades. Is he a racist, sexist, homophobic, classist, warmonger sh*tbag? Sure. But why skip the issue of systemic racism, sexism, and class issues by labeling him as “insane” (not an actual thing, by the way)?

It’s not helpful at all. It is common among “the resistance” because they choose to believe that Trump is an anomaly rather than very much a product of our system, culture, and politics.

Let’s ask this: What do we gain from labeling Trump “insane”? It might make white rich heterosexual people feel good because they pushed a candidate and party that ran with absurd slogans of “America is already great!”. But it isn’t going to make any substantive challenge to an administration and Republican party, who has the power right now.

It can perpetuate a type of ableism, but will not stop whatever it is that you dislike about Trump.

Because he is insane @thisismyusername. He is seriously mentally unstable. He needs to be removed from office.

Would you agree that Kim Jung Un is also mentally unstable?

@Dutchess_III: “Because he is insane @thisismyusername. He is seriously mentally unstable. He needs to be removed from office.”

How is this a response to what I just typed?

Are you more concerned with process and playing the part or are you concerned about the Republican agenda? Because even if we were to entertain the unethical project of publicly diagnosing people from television and tweets, removing Trump would leave you with Pence, who is arguably worse.

@Dutchess_III: “Would you agree that Kim Jung Un is also mentally unstable?”

no. I’m not qualified to do so, and neither are therapists who have not been treating him professionally.

Someone should ask Trump for his Mental Health Certificate

Not that I can remember, and @thisismyusername I don’t know if he is mentally unstable,but what he is is one of the biggest liars you guys have ever had for a President,and don’t believe me, they have checked his lies against others and he is indeed the biggest liar.
What could make him mentally unstable in my book, does he believe his own lies?

@SQUEEKY2 – You can and should evaluate his statements. He’s lying sack of sh*t. But that doesn’t mean that we can or should start diagnosing mental health.

The fact that this guy’s statements are mostly false are the least of our concerns (or should be). And whether he’s a “mentally stable” individual (whatever that means) is also not really relevant. Some people (liberals) seem to object to the style at which he performs as president. They prefer their presidents to be “presidential” as they do horrible things. Take the recent rehabilitation of George W Bush among liberals. Here’s a guy responsible for unfathomable death and destruction, and is considered a war criminal. But now he’s hugging Ellen and people think he’s cuddly because he paints and seems “sane” compared to Trump. Longing for the days of a monster like Bush shows the absolute lack of any real focused opposition among centrist/corporate liberals who are really just upset with how vulgar Trump appears to them.

So, pragmatically the mental health approach is vacuous and won’t result in any real change. And it’s really unethical to encourage more stigma against mental illness in these efforts.

Note: There are parallels here to the whole liberal (successful) effort to reboot the cold war, which is even more dangerous, but that’s for another question.

I am concerned with Trump, not the political parties.

You’re qualified to have an opinion on Kim Jung Un, though. I think he’s crazy. I think Charles Manson was crazy.

@Dutchess_III: “I am concerned with Trump, not the political parties.”

Really? I have some bad news for you. Trump is not the problem, and he’s not the one doing the sick sh*t (the tax bill, for example). Trump is a symptom and a very predictable one. If you aren’t concerned with the political parties, I’m curious if you have any real objections to Trump’s agenda at all. Specifically, what are you opposed to? And how does his position differ from the Republican party’s?

@Dutchess_III: “You’re qualified to have an opinion on Kim Jung Un, though. I think he’s crazy. I think Charles Manson was crazy.”

I’ll entertain this line of thinking for a second: what possible explanation do you have for making such a statement?

There is an understandable reluctance on the part of any of us to declare the President insane, and it would be a very weighty line to cross in the country’s history. The problem comes with who it is that is qualified or rather charged with the responsibilty for judging the sanity of the President. Just how far from the tracks must Trump wander before Ben Carson (for example) takes notice? The spineless Republican Congress is clearly reluctant (as usual) to look the truth in the face, and instead proffers the defense “he’s no crazier now than the day he was elected. The people have spoken.”’

The big laugh in a Saturday Night Live sketch was Phil Hartman playing a crafty, take-charge Ronald Reagan, when in reality he was a bumbling simpleton suffering from Alzeheimers.

I can’t get the video to play (holy moly NBC’s web site is a mess) but anyway, here’s the link – SNL – December 1986 – President Reagan, Mastermind

Regan was joked with having dementia and falling asleep for a few seconds during speeches. Edit call me jay nailed it.

@thisismyusername I think you’re trying to make a noble point which has some merit from a certain point of view. Certainly I agree that:

* The policies are a bigger problem that won’t be solved by impeaching and evicting only Trump.

* Pence may be even worse than Trump.

* Most of the rest of the current Republican party is almost as bad.

* It doesn’t actually add all that much to the problem to think that Trump has mental problems. In fact, if he didn’t have mental problems and were still doing all the shit he’s been doing, that might actually be worse. (Another clear reason why I think Pence may be worse.)

* Like the comparison of Trump to orang-utans, clowns, orange make-up abusers, etc., calling Trump insane and saying that’s the worst thing about him actually do do a great disservice to all the members of those groups, and many people with mental disorders are harmless… (at least, when they’re not given a job in the Oval Office that comes with control of the US military and its nuclear arsenal, and allowed to appoint department heads and judges etc etc etc.)

* And I get than an official authoritative psychological diagnosis would come from a qualified person treating the subject, and that there could be unfair inaccurate and in many ways problematic things about allowing others to assess someone’s mental health.

On the other hand:

* See the bold italic bit above.

* There can also be some use in non-professional study of patterns of mental illness, and discussing them, especially when there are abusive scumbags getting away with all sorts of perpetrations which the system utterly fails to address even though many people can clearly see someone has issues that make someone behave without conscience to the great detriment of others, as all too often happens with asshole parents and other nasty people who get themselves into positions of power. If we’re not allowed to learn about that, how to recognize it, and to discuss it and figure out unconventional ways to deal with it, we’ll be in far worse trouble than we already are. This sort of behavior pattern is not only rampant in our leadership but in our culture, and it needs to be called out, even if many of us are going to bandy about terms like “mental illness”, “insane”, “batshit crazy”, “evil sociopathic scumbag”, etc.

* Despite the professional strictures you refer to, many psychiatrists have gone ahead and given opinions on Trump.

I’m curious what you think about this article and the book it refers to, The Dangerous Case of Donald Trump: 27 Psychiatrists and Mental Health Experts Assess a President or of the now over 60,000 mental health professionals who have signed the petition which states:

“We, the undersigned mental health professionals, believe in our professional judgment that Donald Trump manifests a serious mental illness that renders him psychologically incapable of competently discharging the duties of President of the United States. And we respectfully request he be removed from office, according to article 4 of the 25th amendment to the Constitution, which states that the president will be replaced if he is ‘unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office.’”

We have never had a president like Trump. By any objective standard, his behavior is a bit bizarre – the constant lies, the petty tweet fights and lack of a discernible political strategy. It is tempting to say it is due to some sort of mental illness. I am not so sure. He may just not be a very nice person.

Every time Trump opens his mouth or sends a tweet it brings his sanity, or at least his fitness to govern into question.

Previous presidents have had their moments but none has been so wilfully disconnected from reality as Trump.

My favourite eccentricity was Theodore Roosevelt’s decision to go exploring a backwater of the Amazon after he lost the 1912 election. That kind craziness is almost admirable. If only Trump would follow his example

This opinion article argues that Trump’s antics play well among his base. Now that is something to worry about. I find particularly concerned about the distrust of educated people. The right wing has been in ascendancy it Europe as well as the U.S. Is distrust of professionals a characteristic of right wing politics or just American nincompoops?

@Zaku: ”(at least, when they’re not given a job in the Oval Office that comes with control of the US military and its nuclear arsenal, and allowed to appoint department heads and judges etc etc etc.)”

Do we currently have a system of evaluating mental health status for any of these positions? Does an elected official (member of congress, president, judge, etc) have to go through some kind of “professional” therapy in order to pass? I could be wrong, but I suspect the answer is no. I also don’t see this as any kind of movement arising from the current “Trump = insane” movement. Trump as seen as something different.

Re: the tons of professionals providing their opinions on the president despite their professional restrictions on doing so – I think it’s completely reasonable to ignore those out of hand for the same reasons such restrictions exist.

@Zaku: “There can also be some use in non-professional study of patterns of mental illness, and discussing them, especially when there are abusive scumbags getting away with all sorts of perpetrations which the system utterly fails to address even though many people can clearly see someone has issues that make someone behave without conscience to the great detriment of others,”

This is what activists have always done. Abusive scumbags rise to the top precisely because the system is designed to reward such behavior. It’s a systemic problem. What we refer to a sociopathic in casual conversation is standard working procedure for corporations and those that run them. We just talk in terms of “profit”. Addressing the problems with capitalism fails when we view it as just a few bad apples.

And US foreign policy is always written off as mistakes by people with “good intentions” rather than a sober analysis of the relationship between corporate and military power and imperialism.

What we would consider “insane” in someone we meet is exactly the behavior of our institutions and the people that rise to power to manage them.

@Zaku: “as all too often happens with asshole parents and other nasty people who get themselves into positions of power. If we’re not allowed to learn about that, how to recognize it, and to discuss it and figure out unconventional ways to deal with it, we’ll be in far worse trouble than we already are. This sort of behavior pattern is not only rampant in our leadership but in our culture, and it needs to be called out, even if many of us are going to bandy about terms like “mental illness”, “insane”, “batshit crazy”, “evil sociopathic scumbag”, etc.”

Again, this approach seems to completely skirt the issue. If Trump is “batshit crazy” or an “evil sociopathic scumbag”, then what is in comparison to? What makes those statements reasonable in the context of the system in which he exists? Why him? What about members of congress? And more importantly – what about the system that resulted in Trump?

This really seems to come down to how people would like to see their presidents. It’s a question of taste and vulgarity. They like their presidents to drop bombs on people while looking nice and sounding “presidential”. Trump breaks many conventions. Remember, there are many people who actually thought “America is already great!” was a non-laughable response to the rise of Trump.

Let me try this to explain why the mental illness angle might be more harmful than other terms…

When I was a kid, if someone was acting annoying or obnoxious, they were often referred to a a “f*cking retard”. Now you don’t have to be overly PC to cringe at “retard”. We look at the language we use to determine if it’s causing harm. And in this case, it was. Why couldn’t we just call the assh*les “assh*oles”?

Why can’t people describe what it is that offends them about Trump so much without employing terms used to denigrate people who have an illness?

Why can’t people describe what it is that offends them about Trump so much without employing terms used to denigrate people who have an illness?

Trump shows clear signs of mental degradation. It’s not denigrating to other people to point it out.

@Call_Me_Jay: “Trump shows clear signs of mental degradation. It’s not denigrating to other people to point it out.”

Saying that Trump’s public personality shows a character that appears to have signs of mental degradation is not necessarily the same thing as calling him “insane” or “batshit crazy”. It’s also still not very helpful or accurate.

Why don’t you be specific? What about his public personality shows signs of mental degradation, and what specifically do you mean by mental degradation? Are you saying that he has Alzheimer’s or dementia? What leads you to this conclusion, and when did he come down with this – post or pre election? And would you have come to the same conclusion about his mental state if the policies he supported were more aligned with your own?

By the way, I just found this great article by Dr. Dean Burnett that outlines a few of the objections (more clearly than I have, apparently).

And here is this issue from the perspective of someone with a mental illness.

You guys do know that you won’t change each other’s minds? Those that think Trump has a mental decline will always think that and those that think he is perfectly fine won’t think any different.

@chyna: ”—you guys do know that you won’t change each other’s minds? Those that think Trump has a mental decline will always think that and those that think he is perfectly fine won’t think any different.—”

Those aren’t the two sides here. I am not asserting that he is perfectly fine. I’m saying that none of us are qualified to make such an assessment, and that the whole project of doing so is harmful in many ways.

I think it’s likely that many of us agree in that we dislike Trump. I’m just attempting to bring some attention to the fact that the “mental health” angle is not helping anyone, and is actually harmful.

OK @thisismyusername. Here is what a quick search pulled up:

“I love this place. And you know we set every record in Alabama.”
It’s not totally clear what exact records Trump is referring to here. It could be a record for largest crowd to attend a political rally? Those records aren’t really kept.

“You have some football games tomorrow.”
True! Alabama plays Vanderbilt in Nashville. Auburn plays Missouri in Columbia.

“He’s only been there for, what, 34 years or something like that, right?”
Trump is talking here about Alabama Republican Sen. Rich Shelby, who undoubtedly loves the fact that the President reminded a big crowd of people who don’t love Washington politicians that Shelby has been in office for more than three decades.

“He’s doing a good job. He is doing a good job.”
this is Trump on Attorney General Jeff Sessions. The man he called “beleaguered.” The man he called an “idiot.” The man he said should resign after Sessions recused himself from the Russia probe and a special counsel was created to deal with the investigation. Same dude.

See the link for the 60 other non-nonsensical blathering Trump made in ONE SPEECH in Alabama.

He made fun of a handicapped person.
He bragged about “grabbing pussy.”
He has made sexual allusions to his daughter.

He’s an idiot.

Why in God’s name are you defending him?

What @thisismyusername is doing is pretty clearly not a defense of Trump. It’s a defense of the mentally ill.

@Dutchess_III – I think we might be talking past each other here.

Are you claiming that his public statements are nonsensical garbage, or that he is “insane”? Is he not very smart or is he hearing voices? I’m not sure I follow.

@Dutchess_III: “Why in God’s name are you defending him?”

I’m doing quite the opposite. By assigning mental illness to Trump, you are removing agency to some degree, which means that he is not responsible for his actions. I’m saying the complete opposite of this. Is he responsible or not?

@Dutchess_III: “He made fun of a handicapped person.
He bragged about “grabbing pussy.”
He has made sexual allusions to his daughter.”

Are these things that we are supposed to associate with someone suffering from a mental illness? Are these the symptoms we should look out for?

Thanks @Mariah. I’m hearing you now.

I think that he was so spoiled as a child, so exempt from consequences, that he grew into a spoiled brat adult who believes he doesn’t have to live by the same rules of society that everyone else. That’s a big problem in my book. Does it mean he’s “insane?” Not necessarily. However, it MAY be that he is starting to develop dementia, which is suggested in some of his turns of speech, which is a form of insanity. And yes, Reagan suffered from Alzheimer’s too, but his “handlers,” including his wife, were able to keep him in control so that he didn’t do too much damage.

No one seems to be able to control Trump. He’s too used to getting his own way, no matter what.

The frustration with Trump forces you to think about our predicament. I mean where is it stated that a madman can’t be President? Or, for that matter, what’s the constitutional restriction on a semiliterate narcissist as President? Trump is a constitutional crisis hanging on demarcation of the line between eccentric and crazy. As aberrant behavior has come to define Trump and the retorts to accusations of “crazy” shift from “prove it” to “so what?” maybe we should simply drop the charge of “crazy” to “impaired.” I never thought Trump could last a year without him forcing the Republicans to dump him, but inertia is evidently a bitch. Another 3 years of this is unthinkable simply because Trump is such a loose wheel that any speculation is useless. In the near term, my hopes are pinned to Mueller.

I can live with “impaired.” But @thisismyusername is gonna make us define “impaired.”

“Impaired” To be all fucked up.

@Dutchess_III: “I can live with “impaired.” But @thisismyusername is gonna make us define “impaired.””

:)

I think @Mariah nailed it,it’s harmful for non-doctors to label Trump mentally unstable, and totally unfair to people that do have the illness.
Trump is the biggest lying,un-diplomatic, bully,idiot of a President you people have ever had but it is not up to us to call him mentally unstable.
And again it isn’t fair that to do that, for the people that really suffer from the illness.

This is all part of the continuing effort to delegitimize the election. So far the economy is up, unemployment is down, and the market is up. Your all worried that Trump shouldn’t talk to N.Korea the way he does but they are setting up communication with the South for the first time in years. If he’s crazy, he’s sure doing a good job.

They called into question the mental stability of several presidents and presidential candidates, Goldwater, Nixon, Bush, Reagan. These are just the ones I can recall. Give it a rest, Hilary lost.

I think it’s a mistake to view Trump as insidiously evil, just as there’s no sense in an assumption that the man CHOOSES to be an idiot. The guy is playing the hand he’s been dealt. If anything, I suppose he should be an inspiration to us all on what can be achieved with a defective deck and a millionaire dad.

defective dick?

Trump has yet to have any significant impact on us @Jaxk. We’ll see what next year brings.

You are wrong about the impact. The consequences of Trump are about “the mills of the gods”. His successor is in for some brutal realities.

@Dutchess Maybe he hasn’t had significant impact on you but tell that to the immigrant parents who have been deported or the native Americans with pipelines running through their sacred lands.

…Or the 13 million who will lose their health insurance, and the 16 thousand who will die because of that.

@Jaxk I disagree with your take. This discussion has nothing to do with the legitimacy of the election. I’ll grant you that he arrived legitimately. The topic here is about the product being defective. The defense that “the other guys weren’t cuckoo proves that you’re making it up” just won’t fly. This time the “rumors” have grit. So you’re in the “SO WHAT” camp?

@stanleybmanly – The left has been completely irrational about Trump since before he was elected. Screaming now that he must be crazy hardly carries any weight. Whether the other guys were cuckoo or not is irrelevant since the point is the pattern that the left uses. Call them racist, call them evil, and call them crazy. You guys use the same playbook every time. The fact that you think nobody will notice is the crazy part.

So it is the left that is irrational? Well perhaps. We certainly underestimated him. But you are understating your case. Our “irrationality” was there long before he was elected. I look back on it as dismissive contempt. And I can only comfort myself with the thought that you will suffer with the rest of us.

Right, I understand that he has affected many people profoundly. But my response was to @Jaxk and his comment that So far the economy is up, unemployment is down, and the market is up. Your all worried that Trump shouldn’t talk to N.Korea the way he does but they are setting up communication with the South for the first time in years. If he’s crazy, he’s sure doing a good job.

We have yet to see where the economy, unemployment, and N Korea are headed.

I just can’t see him goading, insulting and taunting Kimmy is any kind of actual communication. We’ll find out where it leads.

Obama vs Trump,lets compare them like 2 train conductors, at the beginning of Obamas shift the train was a mess the cars needed cleaning ,the tracks needed clearing the boiler needed stoking he did that and got the train moving fairly well and his shift ended.
Trumps shift started with the train moving fairly well and he grabbed the loud speaker and shouted look at how well I got this baby moving!
Nothing unstable about that.

Maybe @Jaxk is right, though I noticed that he’s too smart to defend any premise that Trump isn’t crazy. Perhaps there’s some credence to the idea that “crazy works”. The left is irrational for pointing out that Trump is demonstrably crazy, though the majority of those about him complain bitterly of the fact.

This issue is now settled. The president himself has answered He is the embodiment of mental health and, additionally is, like, really smart. When was the last time Trump told a lie?

the last time he told a lie is always the last time he spoke aloud

Using the terms related to mental illness to describe arguably the most public person in the world, who also is the most powerful, is not the same as just throwing around those terms in general conversation to denigrate other people.
@thisismyusername may have his intentions in the right place, but I don’t believe his comparisons to calling some kid a “retard” when he was a child is the same thing at all.
This article is worth the read and on topic.

As someone pointed out, when people trumpet their own virtues it usually turns out to be false. People already know. Obama never said we was a stable genius, but he was. Michelle was too.

Perhaps it would add more clarity to the discussion nationally if specific terms were used rather than “mental illness.” I agree that just throwing that term around doesn’t make sense but I do think we can label him a narcissist (which is a diagnosable personality disorder) and perhaps even a sociopath as evidenced by the fact that he seemingly has no empathy for others. We can also question whether his cognitive powers are diminishing due to stress or old age.

I agree that it can stigmatize other people with mental illness to just throw the blanket term around but I do think we can see evidence of certain DSM labeled behaviors in him even without personal contact.

And I for one as disturbed by the fact that a man so emotionally and intellectually impaired has the ability to start a nuclear war even if he is in the main in accord with the Republican agenda in other areas.

The term “loose cannon” has never been more apt or more scary.

^^^ What she said. We know when someone is dangerous. We know when animals are dangerous too. It’s an instinct we have. All animals have that instinct.

Thanks for the input. I think we might all be going around in circles. It’s clear that the competing articles on the issue aren’t persuasive for either side. And it seems to come down to how we view the pre-Trump state. The “this isn’t normal” movement often views Obama, Bush, Clinton, etc as not dangerous, while Trump is. Their explanation of danger comes not from a policy of drone bombings, abandoning working class, denying healthcare, invading countries and destabilizing the world. It comes from the tweets and ramblings of Trump. He’s the unstable one.

It’s interesting to consider that while the center/right is worried about Trump’s mental health and his risky behavior while dealing with nuclear nations, the left’s concerns about the #Resistance’s reboot of the cold war is ignored (or considered a product of some Russian conspiracy).

Trump is dangerous. Not because he is “insane” or some other diagnosis. Rather, because his stated intentions and efforts have been manifestly racist, xenophobic, misogynist, imperialist, pro-corporate, anti-environment, anti-worker, and in favor of starting wars with countries that have been on the Republicans’ radar for some time. These are all very “normal” – he’s a product of this culture and system, and we should be fighting him on every single action he tries to take. That will also mean making sure that the enablers with a “D” next to their name find themselves in danger of keeping a job as well.

This isn’t time for milquetoast liberalism, conspiracy theories that co-opt the right’s nationalism and redbaiting, or pretending that our current situation is due to the U.S. electing someone with a mental illness. Trump is a crude version of every Republican (and some Democrats) in office right now. If we are offended by the process and not by the actions, we might not be resisting much at all.

@thisismyusername we don’t need articles to tell us the man isn’t right in the head.