Typical of this administration. Remember that Pence is hyper-Christian, and has minimal respect for disagreeing religious views. So he probably called his closest Christian friend and asked him to speak.

As a Jew, I find this choice insulting and distasteful. Uneducated and Unfeeling.

But why are you surprised?

According to Lena Epstein, there was nothing at all wrong with it and no insult intended, and since she invited him, not Pence, I would assume anyone with an issue would go after her and no one else.
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/white-house/pence-sets-firestorm-campaign-prayer-christian-rabbi-n926016

There is NOTHING that any member of this administration does that shocks or surprises me!!! As a Baptist, I personally wouldn’t be offended by a Mormon speaking about the horrors inflicted by an active shooter although I’m sure many Baptist would be. I would be in such a distraught state of mind that I’d accept comfort from whence it came!!!

@KNOWITALL I have no idea who Ms Epstein is, but I can say that whoever she is, she doesn’t speak for Jews – especially Conservative/Orthodox Jews.

Ah – she’s a conservative running for Congress. That explains a lot.

@elbanditoroso I was responding to the Q, which blamed ‘the administration’, and offered evidence to the contrary.

A Pence aide said that Jacobs was invited to pray at the event in Waterford Township by GOP congressional candidate Lena Epstein and said Pence did not know who he was when he invited Jacobs back onstage to deliver a message of unity. “He was not invited by the VP’s office to speak on behalf of the Jewish community,” the aide said.

Epstein, who is Jewish, said in a statement that she invited Jacobs’ prayer “because we must unite as a nation — while embracing our religious differences — in the aftermath of Pennsylvania.” She said anyone attacking her or Pence over the prayer is “guilty of nothing short of religious intolerance and should be ashamed. This was an effort at unity, yet some are trying to create needless division to suit their political goals.”

But the shooting was a direct hit to that specific religion due to hate and intolerance. Someone should have been invited to speak directly to the Jewish community.
And if Pence was unaware of who was speaking, shame on him! This hugely important matter should have been planned to the nth degree.
Unity my ass. Jewish were targeted, they needed support.

Sheer incompetence. Thinking this would be a good move says a lot about Pence.

I also find @KNOWITALL ‘s comment (last sentence) interesting. She wrote (quoting Ms. Epstein): yet some are trying to create needless division to suit their political goals.”

That’s compounding the issue. Because I am insulted due to her (epstein’s) stupidity – that makes me the bad guy for speaking up about the insult?

That’s a pernicious way of politicizing a tragedy.

@elbanditoroso I agree with you on that actually. I find it hard to believe that someone of the Jewish faith would not realize or care, whether the choice would be offensive or not. That,to me, is the real question but I’m not familiar with any of the religious subtleties in this situation either.

But relations between Jewish people and this administration have been really good, from everything I’ve heard. I would hate for that to end, because of Lena’s unfortunate- or calculated-choice (whichever it was), which does seem to pander to the Christians rather than the Jewish people who were mourning for their losses.

@KNOWITALL I just want to say that “the Jewish people” is not a monolith and I would imagine that for every Sherman Adelson supporting Trump, there is a George Soros who disagrees with his policies. And there are even many of us who do not support Netanyahu’s policies towards the Palestinians.

But it is certainly true that inviting a Jews for Jesus Messianic rabbi to speak was probably a tactless move. However, I do not give it much weight because I find the anti-immigration, homophobic policies of Pence antithetical to the ideal of unity.

No such thing as “Jews for Jesus”.
They are Christians who propagate a fundamental lie about who they are.

And frankly, considering that the very core of that movement is “Judaism is wrong”, this whole stunt is antisemitic.

I think it’s a brilliant move.

It deflects from the critically important conversation of gun control, far right political rhetoric leading to violence, antisemitism among the right, etc. and now we’re having a conversation about how Trump/Pence are wrongfully being blamed for choosing an inappropriate religious leader which will be forgotten in a week. We’re not talking about how to prevent these types of crimes, instead we’re having a conversation about liberal PC outrage and how the media unfairly targets Trump.

Some Orwellian shit here.

I just can’t get worked up about it. I frankly don’t care. I long ago experienced outrage fatigue.

What, and ignore all the other religious freaks? I think it would go over like a fart in church!

Despite all the hatred about Trump and the raging desire to make him somehow responsible for the shooting, the plain fact is…he isn’t. Both MSNBC and CNN interviewed the Israeli ambassador to the US, Ron Dermer. Both tried baiting him into saying that Trump somehow encouraged this violence. His response was that he didn’t feel that way at all. He felt that Trump’s reaction to this was stronger than any other world leader he had ever seen. Now…that is the ambassador to Israel…THE Jewish nation. He doesn’t blame Trump for someone shooting up a synagogue. I guess the question is: if those that should be able to see reasons for the violence cannot see Trump as the problem, why can’t you see anything else?

@seawulf575 You’re quoting a dude who literally compared college kids protesting Israel’s horrific human rights abuses as being equivalent to Nazis. He is a representative of the extreme right-wing Israeli administration, I’m not at all surprised that he supports (in public at least) a maniac like Trump.

If a Messianic Jew is a Jew, of a Jewish origin, a Jewish background, they are Jewish, pure and simple.

I can understand the objection if it were a a person of non-Jewish origin who converted to Judaism through Messianic Judaism.

With all the sects of Judaism out there, why not a Messianic Jew?

If Jews raised in a Jewish home can be atheists, and still be regarded as Jews, then they can believe in Yeshua as Messiah,

@Yellowdog All of the early Christians were (to paraphrase your description) ”[Jews of a Jewish origin].” So what, pray tell is the difference between a Messianic Jew and the first generation of Christians?

Nothing.

Both MSNBC and CNN interviewed the Israeli ambassador to the US, Ron Dermer.

Dermer is a radical right-winger, as is much of the Israeli government. He doesn’t represent “Jews” any more than Trump represents “Christians”.

There no need to either defend or disparage “Jews for Jesus”. The sect is every bit as valid as as any other of the silly cults people pick. It’s the shocking ignorance on the part of Pence with the symbolism involved that I find appalling. It’s the sort of gaffe that has come to define the Trump administration, and fortunately for us the world has come to recognize that the insults flying from Trump and associates aren’t necessarily intentional.

@KNOWITALL I found out after I posted this Q that it wasn’t Pence who directly invited this Rabbi, thanks for providing that information as well.

The only excuse I have for Evangelicals like Pence and others similar are they really have zero idea how offensive many Jews find the Jews for Jesus group. It is not a sect of Judaism as @Yellowdog called it to most of us, it is Christians trying to convert Jews. These Jews for Jesus people actively proselytize, which is not Jewish at all. They actively try to convert Jews. Accepting Jesus as your savior makes a person Christian.

If it had been a Christian minister or Catholic priest just acknowledging the trajedy In Pittsburgh it probably would have gone unnoticed, but a Messianic Rabbi is like a slight to the people of the Tree of Life synagogue, and most Jews in America.

It’s not really about politics for me. If it had happened with a political candidate I really like I would have calmed them idiots. With Pence I admit to thinking it might have been very purposeful. Either way, this whole thing with the Messianic Rabbi is not a good feeling for most Jewish people I know.

What if a Mormon priest referenced the shooting and started referring to the planets the people who died are on, or whatever they believe? It would be seen as unfeeling and an affront. That’s basically the same to me.

Some guy, who may or may not have ever lived, maybe named Jesus, has people right here behaving like seething demons.

Personal affront?
When people are offended by Jews, and their beliefs, and customs, that is wrong, but a man who believes in Jesus prays for a tragedy, those Jews have every right to be offended, and give voice to those feelings?

Those who abhor hate, should effort to squelch their own hatred.

@Patty_Melt I don’t hate that Rabbi or the Jews for Jesus. People can believe whatever they want.

I have a Christian friend who feels strongly she is Jewish. Like it must be somewhere in her family or just in her soul, I don’t know exactly. She wears stars of David, but accepts Christ as her savior. She’s a Christian, and I think it’s very nice how she is accepting of many faiths and she is a beautiful girl inside and out, and I don’t find it offensive at all that she wants to include Judaism in her Christianity. Having said that, the Jews for Jesus types basically actively try to convert Jews, which is not Jewish at all.

That is all very different that bring in a Messianic Jewish Rabbi when you have a lot of Jewish people in the country feeling under attack, and an actual attack that just happened. Remember the inquisition? Convert, leave, or die! The Jews for Jesus prey on the Jews to convert them. They put Jewish in their name, which to most Jewish people is some sort of attemp to be purposely deceptive. Messianic Jews existing in the world are not the problem, it’s the specific timing of all of these events, and the perception we have of an administration and other politicians wanting to turn this into a Christian theocracy rather than the America we know and love.

@JLeslie Hmm..well more than likely it sounds like Christians are being told differently. So is this about converting Jews with Christian financial support? I’ll do my own research on this.

@KNOWITALL I don’t doubt they are told differently. I don’t think the average Christian has any malice in their heart against the Jewish people.

I also understand where @Patty_Melt is coming from. Jewish people are very grateful for the prayers and outpouring from other religions. I heard two Muslim congregations raised a lot of money to help, and I have no doubt Christians in the community and around the country are being very generous financially and with other types of help regarding this tragedy.

@JLeslie No malice at all, thats why I have been upset since I read this question tbh. Peace.

The fake rabbi is even faking being a fake rabbi. He was kicked out 15 years ago.

NBC News – Oct 30, 2018 - Jacobs, who was invited onstage by Vice President Mike Pence to speak at a rally in Michigan for a GOP congressional candidate, was defrocked 15 years ago, according to a spokeswoman for the Union of Messianic Jewish Congregations.

I am starting to wonder about Lena Epstein (the woman running for office in Michigan who invited Pence in the first place) and what she thought she was doing.

It sounds like she (or her campaign staff) didn’t do any due diligence in inviting this pseudo-rabbi.

That sort of incompetence, which is what we have come to expect from the Trump administration, doesn’t speak well for her qualifications to be elected in her district.

(or, to summarize briefly – she screwed up)

It was a stupid move on the part of Pence to invite the “rabbi” to the stage. It would have been okay to invite a priest. A Jew for Jesus is not a Jew, but a Christian who is trying to usurp Judaism. It is an insult to Jews to have such a person speak on this particular occasion.

@Call_Me_Jay The Rabbi wasn’t even invited by Pence. If a detail like that is parroted then how can you trust NBC to give you original investigated reporting?

Like it or not, Messianic Jewish rabbis are real Jewish rabbis. But after reading @JLeslie I certainly understand why sending a Messianic Jew was offensive, given that regular sects of Judaism take offense with Jesus/Yeshua as Messiah due to “conversion” efforts and posthelytizing Christian groups.

In times of another onslaught massacre to one’s faith, the last thing people need is another denouncement of one’s faith—even if the Messianic rabbi didn’t even try to convert, the faith he stands for is, to them, kind of like an Islamic Imam with good intentions serving as a Chaplain minister to Christians after a Jihad terrorist attack. People need the comfort and fortitude of their own faith, their REAL faith.

I see now too, what is causing the upset.
Thanks for clearing that up.

@elbanditoroso I looked her up. She used to attend, or be on the board, at Temple Beth El in Bloomington Hills, MI. That suburb has a lot of Jews. The suburbs of Detroit have a lot of synagogues. There had to be other rabbis available.

@KNOWITALL @Yellowdog and @Patty_Melt Thanks. :) I appreciate that you listened to our side of it all. If it had been a Catholic Priest or Baptist minister I think people would not have had this reaction. In fact I am sure many ministers across America are asking for moments of silence and prayer for the Jewish families and their community, and we appreciate it. It’s very specific, and is not against Christians that we are upset about this Rabbi. It’s very specific why this had such a negative reaction from the Jewish community.

I think the best phrase to describe this is tone deaf. I don’t think it was deliberately offensive, but that’s what tone deaf is. It refers to something that is well-meaning but not exactly appropriate.

Messianic Jews are as much Jews as Christian Scientists are scientists. They can call themselves whatever they want, but no Jewish denomination (not “sect”) recognizes them as Jewish. So at best the event was tone deaf as Demosthenes said and at worse it’s another symptom of antisemitism. I favor the tone-deaf argument.

https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/messianic-judaism/

Pence is religious. So, birds of a feather…

@Caravanfan Excellent link. This reflects a pretty accurate depiction of Messianic Judaism.

However, I would not disavow someone their birthright, heritage, identity as a Jew merely because they believe in Jesus. If there are atheist Jews, and Jews of many other denominations and schools of thought within Judaism, I see no reason a Jew could not be a Christian if Judaism is their background and heritage.

I would be much less lenient with saying someone who was not born Jewish would be a Jew merely by “converting” through a Messianic Jewish congregation. That, even I, would not thibk cpould be valid. Jews are Jews either by birth or by conversion into a Jewish denomination recognized by other Jewish denominations.

@Yellowdog I have no problem with someone who is born Jewish and converts to Christianity. Or even call themselves a “Messianic Jew”. I was responding to this statement you wrote:

“With all the sects of Judaism out there, why not a Messianic Jew?”

This statement makes the assumption that Messianic Jew is on equal footing with Reform, Conservative, Orthodox, and Reconstructionist demoninations. They are not.

Atheist Jews are a separate ball of wax. Unlike Christianity, atheism and Judaism are entirely compatable. I’ve known atheist Jews from every denomination (including Orthodox). In fact, I know more atheist Jews than theist Jews, and I would be reasonably confident that a significant percentage of all Jews consider themselves atheist or agnostic. There are very good reasons for that that are out of the scope of this discussion, but happy to go into it if you want.

I completely agree with your second paragraph, although I wouldn’t agree with the word “lenient”. There is no debate—someone who converts into Messianic Judaism is not a Jew. Not that I care, but they’re just not. I don’t know anything about Catholicism, but my understanding is that you have to jump through hoops to be a Catholic just like you have to jump through hoops to be a Jew.

@Caravanfan You do. There are classes, confirmation, your first confession, etc… It’s a process to convert that basically explains the ‘why’ of the religion.

I’ll be honest, I didn’t know there were so many denominations of Jews. Sounds similar to Christianity in that way.

@KNOWITALL Judaism divisions are even more complicated than that, but out of the scope of this discussion.

@Caravanfan I figured. I dumb down the Christian denomination thing a lot because many people don’t care, but growing up in it and around it, it’s kind of interesting. It’s what got me interested in other religions and cultures, too, for which I’m thankful.

@Caravanfan Fair enough.

If I ‘converted’ to Messianic Judaism, I don’t think that would make me ‘Jewish’—since Judaism and Christianity ARE separate religions and the worldwide ‘community’ of Jews are distinct from Christianity. The Church alone has striven for thousands of years to differentiate themselves from their Jewish origins.

If I were to want to convert to Liberal or Reform Judaism it seems possible that I do if I am not part of a Christian faith community, and I would (even as a non-Jew) be considered a real ‘Jew’ as a convert.

But I see no reason why a confessing (in Yeshua) Jew would lose their status as a Jew, albeit they might lose their status in specific Jewish denominations. A person born a Jew is still a Jew—although they might not be a part of a recognized Jewish denomination or group.

Why a Jew can be an atheist but not a Christian makes no sense to ME. What in Jewish practice is incompatible with Christianity or vise versa?

But the Jews make the rules on their own religion regarding who is one of them,

@Yellowdog I think I’m going to study up on it. I have a Mormon bible and Quaran, natural progression,

@Yellowdog Leaving the issue of Jews for Jesus aside, let me try to answer the second part of your post. @KNOWITALL and you can correct me if I’m wrong here. Christianity (any denomination) “requires” that there is a divine God who sent his only Son to Earth. The Son died for everybody’s sins, and to be “saved” you must accept that he died for you. This requires a belief in God and by having faith.

Judaism is very different, and is best described by the following parable which I will paraphrase:

A Gentile being kind of a smart-ass goes to Rabbi Shammai and says, “I will convert to Judaism if you can teach me everything while I stand on one foot”. Rabbi Shammai throws him out.

The same Gentile goes to Rabbi Hillel and says, “I will convert to Judaism if you can teach me everything while I stand on one foot.”

Rabbi Hillel says: “What is hateful to you, do not your neighbor. All the rest of commentary. Now go and study!”

That’s it. The core tenent of Judaism is just that. Judaism is at its root a humanistic religion. You are perfectly free to believe in God, but belief in God has nothing to do with what Rabbi Hillel said (or as you probably know it, the “Golden Rule”). Ceremony, music, food, celebration and family are important. God isn’t. Now, if you go to a service, it will be “God this, and God that”, no question. But it’s ritual and tradition. Many believe, but many do not.

I have another story. I was trying to explain exactly this to an Evangelical Christian colleague of mine. She didn’t get it either. I went through this explanation as we were walking and I see a guy across the grass. The conversation went thusly:

“Hey David!”
“Yeah?”
“You’re an atheist Jew, right?”
“Of course!”
I then turned to my colleague and said, “See??”

It’s really that simple. And Bill and Ted said it even more succinctly:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N_yJFLvmjJY

To close, my grandfather was a Jew who fled Russia before the Bolsheviks took over in 1917; in fact he was on one of the last boats out. He was an Orthodox Jew until he died at 103, and to the day he died he was also an atheist. He told me, “I don’t believe in God, but I believe in being Jewish.”

I hope that helps.

@Caravan Thanks, great post and granddad sounds amazing!!

Christianity is followers of Christ. He was a good Jewish man, Temple every day all day. I believe that.

So what about the beautiful curls, Hasidic right? I have known several Jewish folks so I believe the smart aleck part of your post!! Lol

@Yellowdog @KNOWITALL I’ll add a little to the explanation that @Caravanfan gave. One “problem” Jewish people have with Christians is the Christians don’t care how good we are in our life, we could do everything as Jesus prescribed, but if we don’t accept Him as God then we don’t make it into heaven. I’ve always had a serious problem with that. I’m guessing the Messianic Jews will be allowed in by Christian standards, and so then they are Christian. Right? Or, maybe some Christian sects aren’t letting them into heaven either? Some forms of Christianity are very picky.

It’s no surprise lots of Jews are atheist (about 40%). We keep getting enslaved and slaughtered. God doesn’t seem to be helping us out very well, if there is one.

We can’t really escape being seen as Jews if our parents are Jewish. Antisemitic people don’t care if we say we aren’t Jewish, or if we practice some other religion, they will hate us anyway. We are always seen as Jews by others if there is an ounce.

I’m thinking you think of religion as a belief system, but most Jewish people think of Judaism as what we are. So, even if we don’t believe in God, or we don’t practice our religion, we still are Jewish if we identify as Jewish.

Judaism is about LIFE. L’chaim. Life here on earth. We do good deeds to help our community, we believe the rewards of being charitable and loving are rewarded here on earth, we don’t think about it in terms of doing the right thing so we are safe for the afterlife. God is not necessary for that belief. Yes, religious Jews will say doing good deeds “pleases God” or “is commanded by God” but the bigger focus is the act of doing the right thing, whether you do it because God says so, or because you figured out on your own it’s the right thing to do.

The golden rule and pay it forward, those are all a very Jewish mindset.

Beautifully stated, @JLeslie , @Caravanfan and @KNOWITALL

I had a nephew who was briefly on Fluther. @ Magical Sky Faerie. His account was eliminated by the mods I think because he used my computer.. Anyhow, he had beautiful things to say about Judaism and classic religious settings and rituals even though he Is an atheist. He has helped me to understand the Jewish mindset.

Thanks for helping me understand Judaism. Magical Sky Faerie is more into Orthodoxy / Byzantine religion.

One thing I WILL say for Messianic Judaism is that it has helped many Christians understand Jewish religious dancing and culture and music, and has introduced many evangelical Christians to Israel

When I was a little girl, and Church was drilling into my head that belief in Jesus was the only salvation, I put two separate things together and said to my mom, “There’s no way for Jerry Lewis to get to heaven?!!?”
Her, “Not according to the Bible.”
Me, “Can he have my spot?” tears

I don’t understand Christians saying the Jewish people are the chosen, but then leaving us in limbo or hell? I can’t reconcile the two thoughts. I personally never say we are chosen, I don’t think in those terms. Maybe that’s a question for a separate Q though.

@JLeslie It’s not that Christians leave you in limbo, our religion specifically says ‘whomsoever believeth in me’, and some people do not. God has always given all of us choice.

Also God chose the Jewish people, not any of us. See thats why I read the Book of Mormon and part of the Quran. If you want to learn about Christianity, I would always suggest the Bible.

Finally, if Jewish is a race, not a religion, why would you care which sect said a prayer? I’m still confused about the offense. If you are born Jewish, stay Jewish even as an atheist, why would believing in Jesus be more offensive?

@KNOWITALL I hate using the word offensive, but I use it for lack of a better word. I don’t feel or believe Christians are purposely being offensive, I believe Christians (the people) want to convert people because they believe it will help them.

Again, it’s not a sect/denomination in the eyes of Jewish people, it’s Christians who also claim some tie to Judaism if we give them the benefit of the doubt that they’re not just Christians preying on Jews.

I am not saying Christian people decided the Jews are chosen, I understand it’s from the Bible, but remember I’m an atheist, so I’m asking what’s the logic behind God saying Jews are the chosen and we don’t make it to heaven? Is God saying “who believes in me,” or Jesus? In Judaism the two are not synonymous.

Being an atheist doesn’t say to Jewish people if there is a God you are damned. It’s Christianity saying that.

I would say to you, if the Jews are right and Jesus was not the messiah, your beliefs in no way will stop your soul from rising to heaven when you die if heaven exists. I believe that as an atheist, and I think Judaism would concur. We care that you are a good person, not the specific religion. If your children were not Christian, but rather a religion that believes your beliefs will condemn you to hell, wouldn’t that bother you?

I just attended a very long Messianic Jewish worship service this morning, in response to this question.

Perhaps half or less were actual Jews, I think. But I want to say that it did not resemble anything Christian at all. It was a VERY Jewish experience. I think the congregation would have been offended at a sign of Christianity in their worship.

Yet they professed Yeshua as Messiah in a completely Jewish / Hebrew Bible context. This was a thoroughly Jewish worship service. I’m not saying anyone should JOIN, I’m just saying, it was very Jewish and I do not really think any Jew would be offended. The Rabbi was sensitive to the fact that not all present believed in Yeshua,

It scares the hell out of me when Christians make decisions about who are “actual” Jews.

@Yellowdog – you just proved the point I made in my earlier post.

^^I do appreciate that he took time to go to a service. He showed effort to find out more about it.

Going to the Messianic service unfortunately isn’t going to help understand the mainstream Jewish feelings about the topic though.

I think it’s very difficult for many Christians to understand. Their experience and world construct is very different regarding God and religion. In some ways they are more open. Their struggle generationally is so different than the Jewish experience.

@Yellowdog Thats cool you went. But if they would take offense at Christian worship, why does @JLeslie seemingly equate them with Christians? Hmm..

@JLeslie I dont WANT to convert anyone, but if someone asked I’d be obligated and pleased to be given that gift of trust. Are you saying you believe some Christians try to convert Jews, which is what you consider Messianic Jews? Do you disdain their choice to believe in Jesus? Is atheism something you believe is ‘better’ than choosing Jesus? Wow, we need a seperate Q. Lol

PS Thanks for a mature discussion.

@KNOWITALL I don’t disdain anyone’s choice regarding religion. Religion is a personal choice. I absolutely do not think atheism is better than theism or better than a belief that Jesus is the son of God.

I’m an atheist and my husband believes in God and it has never been a problem in any way shape or form for us. He’s not very religious so he might not be a prime example, but my friends who are very religious and have a firm belief in God, they are wonderful people, and many of them feel their belief in God and their religion helps make them the person they are in a very positive way, and I think that’s just fine. I’m happy they have that in their life if it makes them happy and at peace in the world. I would never try to take that away from them. I hope I never come across on Q’s as trying to convince people they should give up their belief in God.

A close friend of mine went from being a fairly religious Catholic to bring atheist and it made me sad. She said to me that she thinks it bothered me more than her. I just felt like it must have felt like a loss for her. I know how important her religion was for her previously, and since she is Catholic, being atheist also basically means giving up Catholicism. Since I’m Jewish, it’s very common for Jewish people to be atheist, so we have both, and I feel like Catholics also see/feel Catholicism as their identity, and I just wished she could feel ok about being Catholic and atheist like I am Jewish and atheist.

When Jews convert out of the religion it does give me a little twinge of surprise, I admit to that. You know how Americans want to keep America intact? We protect our country and our democracy. We go to war against communism and other powers trying to topple our way of life. Many of us have a strong American identity. Jews want to preserve our people. We are only 17 million worldwide. The Nazis had us down to 12 million after killing 6 million of us. When someone leaves the religion, intermarries, or is an atheist, many feel it threatens the numbers and our ability as a people to continue. It’s a big deal for many Jews that we don’t let “them” win at wiping us off the earth.

Realize that my FIL was raised Jewish and became a practicing Catholic. My husband was raised Catholic but did convert before we got married to Judaism (his idea not mine). We don’t have any children, and I’m an atheist. So, I live in my own contradiction I guess. When I see a Holocaust movie I do feel like I should have ten children though. Well, four, I always pictured myself with four.

@elbanditoroso So it scares the hell out of you when a Christian decides who are ‘actual’ Jews?

Well, if they are Southern Baptist, Pentecostal, speak in tongues, or attend evangelical Christian churches on Sunday, then they aren’t ‘actual’ Jews—even if they sit in a Messianic Jewish worship service on Saturday. About forty percent of B’rit Hadasha were actual Jews. The rest might be described as Messianic Christians or Evangelical Christians. About sixty percent probably are active in some church.
But its okay to be scared the hell out of. Everyone’s afraid of something.

@Yellowdog Messianic Jewish are trying to convert Jews to Christianity; what part of it don’t F##King understand is missing ??

You can’t see it can
YOU !

No I can’t see it. Not ALL the letters. Just say FUCKING. so that I CAN see it. All of the word.

Holy cow!
no, that is India.
Heavens to mergatroid.

I came back to this Q, because I was reading the right of return page on Wikipedia (for something completely unrelated) and under “controversies” it talks about Jews for Jesus, and that they are denied right of return. I don’t remember it being mentioned on this Q, and I thought some jellies might be interested. Here’s the link. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_Return

Yes, I’ve heard that Jews that believe in Jesus can only live in Israel for two years. When applying for citizenship, they were only granted a two year extension.

It really doesn’t make sense that religion should matter in the right to return—if someone is, otherwise, demonstrably Jewish

@Yellowdog You bring up an interesting point. Like my FIL, his parents were born and from Israel, before Israel was created by the UN. My FIL’s first language was Hebrew, he was raised in an observant, Jewish family. Now, he goes to church every week with his wife and raised his children Catholic. Can he go back in right of return? I would have always thought so, but maybe not.

They wouldn’t consider him Jewish if he belongs to another faith community, or a faith community besides Judaism.

Even if Messianic Jews remain steeped in their Jewish heritage, their acceptance of Jesus (Yeshua) as Messiah makes them Christian.

Unless religious doctrines actually conflict, I see no reason why individuals of one faith community cannot practice or believe the components of another

@Yellowdog But, what if I say I’m a Christian, but I don’t believe Mary was a virgin, and I don’t believe Jesus was the son of God, and I don’t believe Jesus died for our sins.

What does it mean for two religions to conflict? Could a Moslem also be Jewish? What about a Buddhist? This gets to be a bit absurd.

Regretably, Christians have had a long history of persecuting Jews especially in Europe, even though both have been in Europe for about as long. So its kinda personal that Jews who convert to Christianity no longer belong to Judaism.

In college (the University of Memphis) I took about a dozen classes in the Bornblum Judaic Studies. I even had a Jewish girlfriend. Some of the friends I had and their families were genuinely interested in Christianity and its support for Judaism but were deeply resentful although curious as to why Christians try to convert Jews. However, my Jewish girlfriend’s family did not approve of her visiting churches and Christian religious centers on the campus—places which were important to me and did not try to convert her. I was involved with a Messianic Jewish congregation at the time (B’rit Hadasha)—I was actually wanting to convert to Judaism but I would never refute my belief in Christ, and my Jewish friends never accepted B’rit Hadasha as Jewish.

Nowadays I am just glad to see Christians supporting Israel and participating in Interfaith relations. But I know there are fundamental cultural diffrences between Judaism and my own upbringing. They are a culture I admire but I know I will never be Jewish. Something about Christ really does make Christianity and Judaism separate faith communities.

@Yellowdog I wouldn’t say Jews and Christians have fundamental cultural
differences, but I’d be interested to know why you do? I have stated in the past some cultural things I’ve observed about the groups, but Italian Catholics for instance, are very similar to Jewish people in many ways culturally. Unless, you aren’t counting Catholics as Christians? I do “accuse” evangelicals of expecting obedience, not to question, but I would not say Evangelicals across the board are like this. Jews are usually raised to question.

You might appreciate this. When my husband told me he wanted to convert to Judaism (he was raised Catholic, and I never asked or had any idea he would want to convert) I asked him two questions, one, “what about Jesus?” His reply was, “what about Jesus?” Like he had no idea what I was talking about. Two, “do you want a Christmas tree?” And his reply was, “what if I do?” I chalk it up to him not being very religious, his name is very Jewish, and his father was raised Jewish, but basically converted to Catholicism. They didn’t see the same obstacles I do regarding converting. My Mexican, raised Catholic, Husband, is very similar to me culturally and I’m a northeastern American Jewish girl. Mostly, what makes us similar I think is education level, and sociology-economics, and we both aren’t religious, although he believes in God.

What you might be missing is many Jews worry about the Jews disappearing. They keep trying to kill us off, there is concern intermarriage will reduce our numbers, and some fear atheism and lack of religiousity will reduce our numbers further. Messianic Judaism would feel like a loss to our numbers, a threat, to the people who worry about such things.