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JLeslie's avatar

Do Christian Trump supporters actually not realize that Trump is using religious jargon to get to them?

Asked by JLeslie (65416points) June 26th, 2023
74 responses
“Great Question” (6points)

“I’m being indicted for you” sounds a lot to me like Jesus suffered and died for you.

When people say something to me that sounds a little too much like they are obviously tailoring their conversation to manipulate me it gives me the heebie geebies. Do people actually just get sucked in by it? I can’t fathom it.

Do you think it is an accident that Trump worded his latest statement about the indictment that way?

I once read an excerpt from a book that talked about how Bush used to purposely use religious terminology in his speeches, and that people who aren’t religious would not even realize it. After I read that I started to recognize more when this was happening, but I am sure a lot of it gets past me.

Sometimes politicians are very blatant and honest about it, saying they are quoting form the bible or some other holy book, but other times it is not obvious and instead what I would call the language of the church, which is like a foreign language to some of us.

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Answers

filmfann's avatar

He is certainly trying to manipulate voters. I don’t think he knows enough about Christianity to affect them otherwise.

elbanditoroso's avatar

Of course not – the Trumpistas willfully overlook anything that might have any tarnish on their fearless leader.

I do have to take issue with one thing you wrote, @JLeslie – and that is whether Trump knows biblical allusion well enough to twist it for his own use. Trump is not a big one for bible study, and he has zero knowledge of nuance or suggestion. He’s blatant, not subtle.

So if this is in fact a biblical parallel, either (a) someone much smarter than Trump wrote the speech and the orange idiot simply read it, or (b) Trump sort of stumbled into this idea but with no forethought, or© you @JLeslie , are simply wrong.

My money is on©, then (b).

JLeslie's avatar

@elbanditoroso I think people help him with it and tell him what to say. Or, he is around Evangelicals enough that he hears these lines and takes it in (similar to me, so I might be projecting). Or, I’m simply wrong.

I think he is very smart at trying various lines and seeing what sticks with his supporters.

Remember the upside down bible stunt during the BLM protests? I think he seeks out these opportunities.

KNOWITALL's avatar

Yeah they do, it’s a big deal. Some choose to believe in him, even after the tweets, speeches, debates, etc.
But you also have to keep in mind tgat his stacking of the SC is more than expected and earned him a lot of street cred. Among other thing’s.

janbb's avatar

@KNOWITALL Yes, that’s true. He gave them a big win with the SC.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@janbb And backs Israel. Between those two alobe, he will always have som Christian votes/supporters.

The conspiracy nuts and Nationalists love his Nationalism, as do we regular conservativ
If he acted and spoke as a Christian, plus lwgislated as one, he’d likely get 90% of the Christian Right. But he can’t help himself.

There is some crossover in the religious and non-racist narionalists (what we call patriots) too. His MAGA and America First really hit a chord with us, too.

SQUEEKY2's avatar

No I don’t think they do.

RedDeerGuy1's avatar

Maybe. Tell me when he starts using words like transubstantiation?

zenvelo's avatar

“Christian” and “Trump Supporters” are contradictory terms. A “Trump Supporter” is antithetical to anything professed by Jesus Christ.

RedDeerGuy1's avatar

@zenvelo Yes I agree. If Trump had the ability to heal the sick and raise the dead, he would ask for reimbursement.

Kropotkin's avatar

Trump is a very pious Christian, so of course he’s going to use “religious jargon”.

He’s been steeped in the Christian faith all his life and he’ll naturally use the linguistic form of Christianity, because that’s been such a major part of his life.

capet's avatar

Not really an answer to your question (@Kropotkin already answered it beautifully):

Christianity has a really beautiful history of fighting for justice and liberation and all that stuff, BUT also most of Christian history involves Christians following super-unchristian guys and not really having a hard time doing that.

Pretty much the same thing with any social group or ethical system, not singling anyone out.

JLeslie's avatar

@Kropotkin Did you mean to put a tilde on your answer? You can’t be serious. No evidence of that anywhere.

@cadet Why do you think that? Here’s an article for you asserting Trump is an atheist, which makes way more sense to me. I hate to include him as an atheist, but I certainly don’t think of him as a Christian following the teachings of Jesus. https://www.newsweek.com/was-donald-trump-americas-first-atheist-president-opinion-1685586

I do agree with @KNOWITALL Trump has delivered to Evangelicals some of the things they have wanted for a long time. They might regret it in the end; the saying be careful what you wish for comes to mind.

flutherother's avatar

I’ll just check my bathroom. No, there are no top-secret documents piled up in there. I guess Trump is being indicted for his own crimes.

Forever_Free's avatar

Just like Dr. Smith saying ”Oh the Pain – looking for sympathy. Nothing religious about it.

seawulf575's avatar

I think the whole question is a crock. Trump says “I’m being indicted for you” and the OP conflates that to Christianity. That is a stretch at the very least. The question tries to imply Trump is relating himself to Jesus as a messiah for Christians. Might I remind the OP that the idea of the Messiah started as a Jewish idea? So, gee, maybe he was trying to manipulate Jews and they are just too gullible to know it?

The question then goes on to assume that Christians are idiots who are easily manipulated. That is offensive at every turn and would be slammed and even censored if it was blacks, Jews, women, LGBTQ or any other division other than Christians. Not to mention that the question implies that only Trump uses manipulation to get votes. Grow up. Every politician does that. They make up lies and say whatever they need to so that they get votes. If they are speaking to a blue collar crowd, they talk about supporting the working man. Hell, Biden himself claimed to be a working class guy.

But hey, let’s consider the situation here. A lefty addressing what is mainly a lefty audience, trying to create something out of nothing to slam Trump and Christians. Yeah, manipulation in action, eh? But hey, it got you 5 “Great Questions” so I guess it works, eh?

chyna's avatar

Whatever he meant by it, it’s a stupid statement.

JLeslie's avatar

@seawulf575 Not all Christians are Trump supporters. I certainly was not talking about all Christians. Even Christians who have voted for Trump are not necessarily Trump supporters. Why are you grouping all Christians together like that?

Many jellies on this Q are good Christians and they see the comparison I asked about, even though it doesn’t fool them. As far as Jews, some of the ultra-orthodox think Trump is great for some of the same reasons Christians do, specifically regarding Israel as @KNOWITALL pointed out, but the messiah stuff isn’t going to speak to them.

I have memes in my facebook feed picturing Jesus and Trump, and facebook friends who believe Trump is delivering the prophecy. If you don’t believe that and if you don’t think him saying “I’m being indicted for you” doesn’t sound like dying for you, then your answer is it didn’t sound like that to you.

Here is just one meme people passed around. https://imgflip.com/i/3d21s6 Someone pushes the idea. I really doubt Trump tries to get those pulled. I don’t know if he has a hand in creating them.

LadyMarissa's avatar

He used to brag about being an Atheist as he was a self-made man that needed NO ONE else to fulfill his needs. If the man was to ever walk into a church, he’d burst into flames!!!

He chose Pence to be his VP only because of Pence’s faith…NOT his own. He doesn’t know the difference between the Old Testament & the New. He can’t quote even one verse out of the Bible. I heard his reference the same as you.

@RedDeerGuy1 I don’t think you’ll ever hear him say the word transubstantiation mainly because he can’t…he can’t even say Truth Social!!!

KNOWITALL's avatar

@seawulf575 I’ve never thought he used religioys terminology either. Personally I think God can use anyone, whether they realize it or not.
The most interesting possibility is for a True conversion for Trump. Whether his belief is or was ever true, that is my hope.

JLeslie's avatar

I found this article looking for something else, but it was interesting. The author counts religious words said by Presidents as he defines them, and Jimmy Carter is towards the middle when I think of him as being one of the most Christian men on the planet. His belief in God and Christian faith is beyond beautiful to me.

I don’t think using religious terms is necessarily the same as using Christian phrases that compares themselves to God. Many presidents used biblical quotes or religious jargon to convey a message, and it was not unusual to pull from many different religions, not just Christianity. I do think more than just Trump used religious jargon to connect to Evangelicals, I mentioned Bush, and I always noticed Clinton did it too. Trump does it differently in my opinion, He plays into the idea that he is directly working for God and helping to play out the predictions of the Bible.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@JLeslie He certainly knows enough to fool some but he also doesn’t know enough to fool us all. Jeremiah 9:23–26 says we are not to boast. His pride is anti-Christian. 1 Corinthians 13:4.

I can do this all day but my point is that biblical Christians know he has crossed the line too many times now.

JLeslie's avatar

@KNOWITALL I know you know the bad side of Trump. You say the Biblical Christians know he has crossed the line too many times. I don’t know exactly who the Biblical Christians are exactly?

You wrote you think there is a possibility of true conversion for Trump. Do you mean to accept Jesus as his Savior and be born again, or something along those lines? He is being led by extremists or leading the extremists, it is not the good true Christians in my opinion that he is conspiring with. Not in my opinion anyway. I have been saying for seven years he is a televangelist who laughs behind the backs of the people who worship him. This article says similar. I truly believe that.

SQUEEKY2's avatar

@JLeslie in my opinion to compare Trump to a televangelist is spot on.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@JLeslie So there are some churches that ONLY preach from the bible. As written, literal translation.
Other churches, Catholics for example, use a booklet with the bible verses and translations, etc…they do not take bibles to church or do bible study like say, Fundamental Baptists.

Yes I know exactly what you mean. My mother still sent Jack Van Impe money until she was too sick to do so. I grew up with Tammy Faye & Jim. I can spot BS a mile away but I did like Trump for awhile. And may in future if need be and options are limited. Do I want or trust him? Do I want to hear liberals lose their minds another 4 years continuously? No and no.
I’d rather have a jerk who legislates what I want, than a jerk who doesn’t. That’s only logical. :)

KNOWITALL's avatar

@JLeslie Pence is more the kind of politician that COULD lead the Republican party and get us all, in my opinion as a Christian.

Add Trumps charisma, Bill Clintons personality/style and Pence’s quiet life/religion. Ha!!

seawulf575's avatar

@JLeslie The way you worded your question did not separate Christian Trump supporters. You specifically asked if they (the entire group) don’t realize they are being manipulated. Stop trying to back pedal. It was offensive. It was denigrating and dismissive. And the quote you picked was idiotic to try tying the two together. Trump saying he is being indicted for us isn’t a religious comment at all. It can have quite a few meanings such as “The swamp is indicting me because of the way we all feel”. Or it could mean “Biden is having me indicted because I am a threat to him politically and he wants to try breaking that threat”. I went back and looked at some of the stuff that was said in that speech. Here is what led up to the statement you feel is religious in nature:

”“In 2016, I declared: I am your voice. Today, I add: I am your warrior. I am your justice,” he said in March. “And for those who have been wronged and betrayed, I am your retribution.””

I still stand by my statements. Your question is bigoted designed to get “attaboys” from the lefties on these pages by slamming Christians, Trump supporters, and Trump.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@seawulf575 I have discussed that (broad generalizations) with her, too, but I truly believe she has good intentions, as she said.
And at least she ASKS. We Christians are very few on this site that can explain the dichotomy of Trump’s persona from our pov.

seawulf575's avatar

@KNOWITALL I can easily explain the dichotomy of Trump’s persona from my Christian beliefs. I don’t expect any of our elected officials to be great Christians that live by the word of God. Most people do not, myself included. Living to that standard is very difficult. But Trump has many aspects of his persona that the left completely ignores in their rush to brand him. He has great respect for people like Police and Firemen that put their lives on the line for the rest of us. He stepped up and supported a homeless black woman that was squatting in Trump Tower in NYC. He was told about it and told the management to leave her alone, he paid her rent and made sure she had food. He recognizes things in our government that are just plain corrupt and out of control and he wants to do something about them. He is a loud mouth and has arrogance enough to spread to a dozen people and has been known to be a womanizer. Most of the “crimes” he has been investigated for are hoaxes designed to make people believe his persona is something it is not.

To lump him in as one thing or another is very difficult…as it is with most people.

JLeslie's avatar

@seawulf575 I wrote “Do Christian Trump supporters” so that automatically excludes Christians who do not support Trump of which there are many. It is in bold at the top as the main question.

Bullshit that I am looking for attaboys from other jellies. Have you just met me? I disagree with liberal jellies all of the time and get attacked by them on political Q’s. You can go back ten years and I ask Christians questions, because I am genuinely interested. I do not think of @KNOWITALL as a Trumper, but I certainly do think of her as a Christian. I think she voted for Trump at least the first time, but that doesn’t mean she is a Trumper, not in my mind anyway. She is however in touch with the Christian right, so I appreciate her explanations of how they view politics and the world. She helps me to understand.

You though are a Trumper from what I can tell, and since you don’t even see that Trump uses religious language makes me wonder how aware you are of his antics. You are offended because you want to be offended and because you are Christian and love Trump. @chyna is a Christian, but she doesn’t seem offended, she knows I was not talking about her. Or, do you think she is not a real Christian? What about @filmfann? You don’t acknowledge them as Christians? I find that offensive.

So, what does Trump mean when he says “I was indicted for you?” Please explain it. I really want to know.

JLeslie's avatar

@seawulf575 He says indicted for you. I really don’t understand how that means indicted because of how we feel. Who we? Christians? I just read it was at a faith conference that he said it. You don’t think it is purposeful how he words it?

RedDeerGuy1's avatar

Indicted for you means sacrificed.

JLeslie's avatar

New Yorkers don’t talk like that.

Pandora's avatar

It wasn’t done by accident. Trump knows he can’t win an election on actual merit, so he’s trying to paint himself as a martyr.

I wouldn’t be surprised if his goal behind the whole documents scandal was to make the government come after him so he could look like the victim. POOR, POOR, DONALD. Meanwhile, he probably thought his pals back in Congress could save his butt one more time.

Pandora's avatar

Oh, I just found this article from Vanity fair where he straight-up compared himself to Jesus. https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2023/04/donald-trump-indictment-jesus-christ

capet's avatar

@JLeslie I think I actually agree with you. The point I was trying to make (in a silly way) is that lots of people who we might call “true Christians” follow Trump, who is not a “true Christian,” but that this is not weird because that is very common throughout history.

I’m sure there are all kinds of reasons for this, including pragmatism, hypocrisy, self-delusion, other things on their mind, they haven’t reflected enough on what it means to be Christian, all sorts of reasons.

seawulf575's avatar

@JLeslie I already explained what that statement can mean. I even found the fuller context of how it was used. It isn’t a religious thing at all. Go back and look at my past two comments and I have explained already where it came from. And at the time he was addressing a religious group, but look at the context. You pulled one sentence out to build your anti-Trump garbage.

But hey, I’m just one of those dopey, gullible Christian Trump supporters. What do I know? Obviously Trump haters know more.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@seawulf575 I’ll leave you to it, and I agree with you. God can use anyone.

@JLeslie You are one of the few Democrats I don’t think are crazy tbh. That doesn’t mean the rest are wrong or right, but you and I have communicated over a decade-we worked on it.
Just because you and wulfie don’t have the same relationship does not make him a kooky conservative or less of a Christian. I’m a terrible Christian. I’m a little mean, I hold grudges, I rarely turn the other cheek and I can’t stand the sham of most organized religion. Not to mention I’ve had LGBTQ friends my entire life and don’t preach at them
Wulfie is a better human and Christin and than I, assuredly.

chyna's avatar

@seawulf575 “Former president Donald trump has called the police officers who defended the capitol on Jan 6 pussies.”
The Daily Beast 7/30/21
Mr. trump told people close to him that the events of Jan 6 “broke” several officers because they weren’t tough enough.
Independent 7/30/21.
Doesn’t sound like he respected police then.
But this is totally off track of the question.

chyna's avatar

Also, @JLeslie, I was not offended by your question. It has taken me several years to know or understand who you mean when you talk about Christians and you generally mean evangelicals, not just regular Christians. Sorry it has taken me so long to get it.

seawulf575's avatar

@chyna Got actual links to those quotes? Here’s one that shows he cares about the police and firemen.

Here’s another quote from his J6 speech:

“And I’d love to have if those tens of thousands of people would be allowed. The military, the secret service. And we want to thank you and the police law enforcement. Great. You’re doing a great job. But I’d love it if they could be allowed to come up here with us. Is that possible? Can you just let him come up, please?”
https://www.npr.org/2021/02/10/966396848/read-trumps-jan-6-speech-a-key-part-of-impeachment-trial

The examples go on and on:
https://www.npr.org/2021/02/10/966396848/read-trumps-jan-6-speech-a-key-part-of-impeachment-trial

https://www.npr.org/2017/09/14/550972917/visiting-florida-trump-praises-incredible-first-responders-state-officials

https://www.ajc.com/news/state--regional-govt--politics/trump-commends-first-responders-white-house-meeting/Jt5p1KBdg2jjocI28ti2vO/https://www.ajc.com/news/state--regional-govt--politics/trump-commends-first-responders-white-house-meeting/Jt5p1KBdg2jjocI28ti2vO/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1nmo5EzvE4Y

https://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/307690-trump-offers-condolences-to-ohio-state-community-after-attack/

And no, this is not off track of the question. It points exactly to the problem with the question. The question starts with an offensive assumption and goes on from there. There are no citations, it was a statement taken out of context, and that is the problem. Later, I made a statement about things I like about Trump and you instantly tried to find something wrong with it because it supports Trump instead of slamming him. Your “proof” that I was wrong was two quotes (no citations) from lefty outlets that claim things about Trump, one of which uses the anonymous “person close to Trump” as a source. But you can see how easily I produce example after example after example, from sources across the political spectrum, that supports my claim.

Your “proof” is as flimsy as the question. It makes assumptions that are not really based in facts as you don’t look to see if the sources are actually legit or if there are many other examples that might make your personal bias wrong. And THAT is exactly the same.

JLeslie's avatar

@seawulf575 It’s smart for people to speak the language of their audience. Knowing one’s audience is how to communicate with them well. Trump using language that sounds commonplace to Christians is in my opinion not his normal vernacular, it is very on purpose.

When both Clintons, Obama, Carter, Bush, Biden, Pelosi, use it, it’s actually part of their being, part of their experience before ever running for office. Trump, no way. I just don’t believe it.

@chyna I don’t even mean all Evangelicals.

chyna's avatar

I’m on my phone and can’t link, but you obviously can and I gave sources, so look to your hearts content. We will never change our minds on trump, so I’m taking my leave of this question and hope and pray trump goes to jail for his crimes.

JLeslie's avatar

@KNOWITALL I have always thought @seawulf575 is a Christian. If someone accepts Jesus as their savior they are Christian in my book. They don’t have to jump through big hoops for me to recognize them as Christians. My scope of Christianity seems larger than some other people. Mormons, Catholics, Jehovah, Baptist, Episcopal, Methodist, pentecostal, all Christian. I think the big differences are how fanatic a person is, and people can be fanatic or not in each and every group.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@JLeslie But the problem is seperating politics and religion. It’s almost impossible (for myself and others) to forget that we have to answer to a higher power.
So like when I have to personally vote on outlawing abortion in my state next year, it will be very difficult. That’s just one issue but tou see my point.

seawulf575's avatar

@JLeslie You don’t believe it because you don’t WANT to believe it. You want to believe Trump is a racist, a liar, a misogynist, etc but you don’t want to believe anything he has done that is good and honorable. Does he lie? Absolutely. Is he a misogynist? Doubtful. He isn’t a woman hater. Racist? Nope. He has denounced racists repeatedly though the left chooses to ignore that and create their own story. Look up the Charlottesville Lie. But the point is that it isn’t just Trump. It’s ALL politicians that change things up depending on the audience they are addressing. It’s called politics. You might as well ask “Do blue collar workers not realize that Biden is using blue collar rhetoric to get them?” But no, you can’t really get to that point. And yes, that claim would be equally offensive to me as the one you did use and for the exact same reason. It denigrates blue collar workers, assumes they aren’t smart enough to see through crap and are just easily manipulated.

jca2's avatar

@KNOWITALL Individuals’ personal beliefs regarding religion and higher powers are not the issue. The separation of church and state regards governmental policies and laws. Everyone is entitled to believe what they believe, Christian, Muslim, atheist, etc., but when religion seeps into policy, such as public schools making all children take time out to say a morning prayer, that becomes a slippery slope and is the reason for the separation.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@jca2 Yes I understand and when in office I had no problem drawing that line. Personally it’s more challenging.

mazingerz88's avatar

What is the definition of a Christian who supports a douchebag like trump?

If these trump-Christians do exist, I don’t think it matters to them…their being aware or not on the kind of jargon he uses.

trump psychologically plays the victim and the leader of voters who feel as victimized along with him. That deranged relationship works politically.

JLeslie's avatar

@KNOWITALL I do understand why it is difficult for people to separate their religious beliefs from laws, because laws are derived from ethics and morality. Politics gets tangled up in there, because politicians make laws. I always say, if you (not you personally) are going to make a law, make sure you are ok with it being applied equally to everyone.

Like tax money going to religious schools, are we ok with tax money going to schools of all types of religions? Are the bible Christians really ok with their tax money funding Muslim schools?

Prayer in school. Whose prayer? Muslim prayer 5 times a day coming through the loud speakers?

Abortion? What about forcing a woman to carry a fetus that cannot live?

I’m not asking you about those things, I think you know the pros and cons, but what I do want to say is these issues become larger than life because politicians want them to be. A lot of people don’t think them through or they don’t believe it is a situation they will ever be in. Who is really pushing for these things and why?

seawulf575's avatar

@JLeslie I think most Christians, even those whose church preaches from the bible, are okay with a lot of the things that you mentioned. Tax money for religious based schools that are not Christian in nature is no big deal to most of them. And I believe that most Christians are okay with specific abortions. Yes, there would be a few that would scream about both of these things but they are a relatively small number.

The prayer in school is another issue. There has been a basic ideal set forth that says if a student wants to exercise their 1st amendment rights they can do so but no school grounds/officials can be used. Broadcasting a prayer, Muslim or Christian, over the loudspeaker would violate this. The other part where this gets a little sticky and Christians get angry is that the basic ideal is used for everyone except Christians. Rules are set up that allow Muslims students to pray and do other things to exercise their beliefs but don’t offer Christians the same latitude. Schools have taught Muslim prayers in school and forced students to participate as Muslims for a period of time, regardless of their own religious beliefs and that has been acceptable. At the same time teachers have been fired for praying by themselves after football games and even for reading the Bible on school ground on their off time. It isn’t that other religions are being allowed to be seen or heard, it’s that they are being given preferential treatment while the Christians are penalized.

JLeslie's avatar

@seawulf575 I simply don’t accept most Christians would be ok with public Muslim schools popping up in their cities to the point that all the closest schools to their house are Muslim with little other practical choices. What are you think one school in St. Louis? Think bigger. Think many Muslim schools all around diminishing access to Christian public schools or typical secular public schools. You were just complaining about Muslims supposedly getting preferential treatment, so does it bother you or not?

I also don’t believe children are being forced to do a Muslim prayer in any public school in the United States of America.

If there is some sort of prayer room for students I have a hard time believing Christian students can’t use it. I personally am not fond of a room like that, or any group gatherings for prayer in public schools, but I fully support a child pausing before their meal for giving thanks, or prayer, or whenever they want to take a moment.

Children can read a bible in school, they can read whatever they want, they just shouldn’t be pushing their bible.

Teachers can keep a bible in their desk and read it on personal time.

seawulf575's avatar

@JLeslie Catholic schools were always an option when I was a kid and when I was a parent, even for non-Christians. If you don’t like the school or don’t want your kids to go there or whatever, you don’t send them. Now, if suddenly all private schools were suddenly being funded by tax payer dollars but they weren’t paying for Christian schools but were paying for Muslim schools, that would be a different issue. Which is what I was stating about the Muslims getting preferential treatment. Preferential, not equal.

And here’s how they got around the Muslim Prayer thing: They disguise it as some other class. For example there was a class that forced the kids to write the Muslim Affirmation Prayer in Arabic and called it a “calligraphy lesson”. As if that is the only thing you could use to practice calligraphy. In a World Geography class. And they handed out Korans but not Bibles in that class as well. This happened in Virginia about 6 or 7 years ago.

As for Christian students being allowed to pray, there was a case in Colorado where a group of Christian students would get together on their free time in an empty room to talk about the bible, pray, etc. The boy who started this group was called to the principal’s office and told that if he wanted to pray he could do it before school or after school but not during school hours. There was also the case of the HS football coach that would go to the 50 yd line (on the sidelines) after a game and pray. Some of his students wanted to join him. Then he was fired because of this. He didn’t make anyone pray with him, he didn’t coerce them to pray with him, he was just giving thanks. But the administration fired him. As I remember he ended up suing and winning his case.

The problem is not the Christians. In each of the cases I just mentioned, they aren’t pushing their beliefs on anyone. But the administrators are coming down hard because of some imagined separation of church and state hooey. The same hooey they don’t see when it is some other religion (consider the “calligraphy lesson”).

JLeslie's avatar

@seawulf575 You really don’t get it. You can’t imagine being the minority.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@seawulf575 By 2045 whites will be a minority in the US, under 18 they already are. Guess we’ll see how it feels, or our younger family members will anyway.

seawulf575's avatar

@JLeslie You really don’t get it. It isn’t about majority or minority. It is about fair treatment across the board. Isn’t that the real goal? If you can’t allow the Bible to be taught in schools, how do you justify having the Koran handed out, affirmation prayers being written out as an assignment, etc? Or is it your contention that if someone is deemed to be a minority then society should ignore all rules for them?

seawulf575's avatar

@KNOWITALL I’ve seen that statistic. But think about it. I’m likely already a minority, as are you, depending on how we divide society. I once mentioned getting passed over for a promotion because the other candidate was black and threatened a lawsuit if he didn’t get it. I had a conversation about that. I wasn’t mad at him for using that option. I did tell him, however, that as a straight, middle class, American, Christian, White guy, I was one of the most discriminated against people out there. I’m everybody’s “standard” for what is wrong in this world. If I get discriminated against, I have no race card to play, I can’t complain about sexism, I can’t (at the time) complain about age discrimination, and I couldn’t complain about religious discrimination. Because it is deemed I couldn’t be discriminated against for any of those things. Discrimination doesn’t apply to people like me. So getting passed over for a promotion because I’m white is not discrimination. Getting my rights trampled on (compared to other religious groups) because I’m a Christian isn’t discrimination. Hearing about how privileged I am because I’m white isn’t discrimination or racism even though no one can actually point to anything I have ever benefited from because of my skin color.

JLeslie's avatar

@seawulf575 Exactly right. Fair treatment. No one is wanting to treat Christians differently, but you think they do.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@seawulf575 Oh yes, I’ve understood that for a few decades when illegal Mexicans underbid all the union jobs here.

If we can help @JLeslie understand, it will benefit her, as I truly believe that is why more WS are coming out. It’s a reaction to many liberal policies, the economy, the job market, the Bud Light cans, etc… White folks love a good revolution and I hear whispers already.

I’d hate for Trump to be the only one running who seems to understand that. It’s a powder keg just needing a spark and I don’t trust him to put it out when he can fan it.

JLeslie's avatar

@KNOWITALL For some reason @seawulf575 doesn’t understand that if you allow tax money to be used for establishing Christian charter schools (just happened in Oklahoma, maybe it was Catholic specifically) then there will likely be more Christian schools and also is against the idea of separation of church and state.

My point regarding what if there are only Muslim schools nearby, is that it is very possible that there would be only Christian schools nearby, because the country is 70% Christian! That means the other 30% of us won’t have a reasonable choice in some locations for secular or religiously neutral schools.

What if the US was 70% Muslim, then do Christians want tax money to go to create Muslim public schools? What if the 70% Muslims were constantly pushing for prayer in school, Qu’ran in school, and your kid is one of the few Christians. Most Evangelicals I talk to can’t seem to put themselves in that place. A couple have said to me, “I would never live in a Muslim country.” Others, don’t answer, they change the topic.

@seawulf575 Maybe you are like Rafael Cruz and don’t believe the US is supposed to have separation of church and state.

seawulf575's avatar

@JLeslie Let’s be clear about the separation of church and state. Everyone believes that if you do anything religious on public grounds there is some violation. That isn’t it at all. The Constitution is very specific in it’s wording: Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;. That is the Establishment Clause. Over the years the courts have muddied the water considerably with decisions that expand and contract the extent of the interpretations. In fact, just last year the SCOTUS ruled that a Maine law allowing tuition for private schools as long as they weren’t religious was unconstitutional and allowed the plaintiffs to get funding to send their children to a Christian school. It is another swing in pendulum. But the ruling does not say “only Christian schools” or anything like that. If you have a Satanic school the same tax money could go for tuition to it and for the same reason.

I think sometimes the bias of the viewer is the problem. If government funds are used to pay for tuition to a Christian school, many people that hate Christians get up in arms and make a huge stink about it. Using the “separation of church and state” is the key argument. But they don’t stop to look and ask the question: Does the law specify only Christian schools? If it does, I would agree you have a complaint about the separation of church and state. If it doesn’t, the argument is moot.

I understand your point about Muslim schools better now. But the same logic applies. If the government freely supported funding for Muslim schools (if Islam was the majority religion in the country) I wouldn’t have a problem with it. I WOULD have a problem if the same government fought hard against providing funding for Christian schools or Jewish schools or even Satanic schools. But that isn’t what is happening. In fact what is happening, to put it in your examples, is that Christians in that Muslim-majority country, would be supported freely. They would be allowed to pray whenever they wanted. They would have Bibles pushed in schools. The kids would be forced to write down the Lord’s Prayer as assignments. And the Muslim children would be fought tooth and nail for those same rights. In fact, you might even have teachers telling Muslim girls they couldn’t wear hijabs as they are gang symbols (yes, this happened in FL to Christians wearing crosses).

If 70% of the country holds one particular religious belief, there will likely be more people that want access to schools that support that belief as well. That is just logical. It isn’t a good thing or a bad thing…it’s just a logical thing. And yes, it might make it harder for those of other religions to get into private schools that are either secular or focus on a different religion. That is the case of the Maine parents that wanted to use tuition assistance for the private Christian school. But in this case there were no secular private schools and no public schools in that rural area. This was the best choice for them. It may not have been their ideal choice but it was a choice that got their children an education without having to drive them 50 miles to a different school.

If 70% of the country leans towards one religion you might find a situation where a school would be of that religion and not of the religion you favor. That isn’t the government doing anything, that is the law of supply and demand. If you went to a strongly Christian area and put up an Islamic school, you would likely not have enough Muslims to populate it or to pay for it. It couldn’t last even if you put it up unless it could somehow entice non-Muslims to attend.

JLeslie's avatar

@seawulf575 The US government usually does well to treat all people of all religions equally. I’m sure we can find a case here or there, but overall over time that has been the case.

I completely disagree with you that there are lots of people who hate Christians. Who? Wanting public schools to treat all students equally is not hating Christians. I know some Christians feel like the government is removing Christianity when Christmas isn’t celebrated in a school anymore or a teacher is told to keep her bible inside of her desk during class time, but those are not an attack on Christianity. it would be the same no matter what religion.

As far as the establishment clause and free exercise, the courts usually hold that children are not the same as adults when it comes to exposing them to religions. Children are easier to influence and also courts have previously ruled that children should not be ostracized due to religion in a public school.

If the majority of the student class says a Christian prayer together, and a child is being left out because they aren’t Christian, or if the student joins in the prayer from the peer pressure, that is not ok under the law.

In Utah, there is often Mormon school before the kids go to their regular school day at the public school. That’s fine. The Mormon kids are off campus, sometimes a two minute walk from school property.

The way to make it easy is to not fund religious schools with tax money period, that would be equal treatment under the law.

seawulf575's avatar

Wanting to treat all students equally is not hating Christians. But open your eyes and look at these pages. There are many jellies that ridicule Christians, believe they all do things that just isn’t true, that ascribe all sorts of beliefs to them when they probably don’t know any or at least very few. Your own question made a gross assumption about “Christian Trump Supporters”. And it lumped them all into the same thing you found to be gullible and ridiculous. Yes, I know…you asked a question. But the question should have been easy enough to answer without asking it.

When it comes to religious exercise inside a school or even a government building, my stance is always consistent. I don’t believe it is right to force anyone to recite my prayers, to believe the way I do, or anything like that. HOWEVER I am a firm believer that if I am praying by myself or with others that are like-minded and there willingly then It really isn’t up to the administrators of that place to stop me. And that is pretty much what the Constitution spells out. And I support that view for all, not just Christians. If Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, Hindus, Satanists or any other group wants to follow those same guidelines I fully support it. I don’t have to agree with your point of view to believe you are entitled to it.

However I do know there are Christian schools (private) that have Christianity and Bible study as part of the curriculum. If you are looking to send your children to a private school and you don’t like this curriculum, don’t send them to that school. Just like I wouldn’t expect a Jewish or Christian church to change their sermons to accommodate a non-believer, I wouldn’t ask a private school to do it either.

JLeslie's avatar

^^Once again “Christian Trump supporters” as opposed to “Christians who aren’t Trump supporters.” You just won’t see that I always recognized not all Christians are Trump supporters.I’d have to be completely obtuse and having a stroke to think all Christians are Trump supporters. The majority of my closest friends are Christian (mostly Catholic) and they think Trump is horrible. My husband’s family is Catholic, and they think Trump is horrible.

I don’t hate Christians, it’s ridiculous to think that.

Private school is different. It’s when you move public money into the private schools that we start having a problem.

SQUEEKY2's avatar

Why even try to debate him @JLeslie ??
I get your point, 98% of everyone else gets your point,you won’t ever get him to agree with you .
So why bother?

Tropical_Willie's avatar

Dumb as a stump . . . includes Trump ! ! !

seawulf575's avatar

@JLeslie I understood your difference, I even used your term in my last response. Yet let’s take your stat of this country being 70% Christian. That would then mean that 70% of Trump supporters are Christians too. And apparently, now that you’ve cleared it up, you only believe Christians that support Trump are gullible and stupid.

AHHhhhh….I get it. This isn’t necessarily about Christians, it’s just another Hate Trump post. You just got the benefit of trying to shame Christians that might support him in the process. Hey, you got your 6 Great Questions and you’ve got the echo chamber supporting your hatred. Carry on.

JLeslie's avatar

^^I didn’t say that either, stop playing the victim.

seawulf575's avatar

^^Well which is it? Are you saying that 70% of Trump voters (The Christian Trump supporters) are so gullible they can’t recognize pandering when they see it? Or are you just saying Trump is scum for trying to campaign to his audience?

SQUEEKY2's avatar

Gee I don’t know about @JLeslie but I will go with both.

mazingerz88's avatar

^^If you vote for and defend an a-hole like trump, what does that make you? Lol Christian or no christian you know who and what’s on that mirror staring back at you.

Seems Brazil’s justice system did a better job with Bolsonaro. Not sure whether Bolsonaro used jargon that might come across as religious.

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