General Question

chyna's avatar

It has just came out that Justice Alito was flying the American flag upside down right after January 6. Do you think he should be fired or reprimanded in some fashion?

Asked by chyna (51377points) 4 weeks ago
111 responses
“Great Question” (10points)

Here is one article on it.
The upside down flag flying was a way of trump supporters showing their dislike of Biden winning the election.
Shouldn’t a supreme court judge be impartial to which party is running the country?

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Answers

canidmajor's avatar

I saw that on the news a couple of days ago and I was appalled. Kavanaugh and Barrett wouldn’t have surprised me, but I (foolishly, apparently) gave Alito more credit.
Yes, he should be either dismissed, or at least reprimanded, but if Thomas is an example, nothing will happen.
So much for Justice being non-partisan.

LadyMarissa's avatar

Don’t forget, he’s a perfect Republican down to his toes. HE didn’t fly it upside down…his WIFE did…& he simply FAILED to notice!!! I think I see a theme running here.

ragingloli's avatar

@LadyMarissa
It is the mantra of the party of personal responsibility: Always someone else’s fault.

gondwanalon's avatar

No matter what your political party is, it’s hard to control your wife. HA!

gorillapaws's avatar

No. He’s a piece of shit because of his rulings on the bench, not because of the orientation of the flag outside of his house.

JLeslie's avatar

It was shocking to me. Aren’t supreme court judges supposed to be apolitical. I understand our supreme court has politics, but at least stifle from outward displays of politics and give the appearance of neutrality to portray loyalty to the constitution and not a political party.

Not just a Trump flag, which would bother me, but an upside down American flag, a symbol of the lunatics.

Really disturbing.

Tropical_Willie's avatar

@JLeslie Not when they want to overthrow the democracy for the tangerine turd and the overthrow of the current government; maybe they waiting for more funding from PUTIN.

Zaku's avatar

I think at the least, he should recuse himself from related cases, such as Trump’s appeal for “presidential immunity”.

Pandora's avatar

I agree with @Zaku he should recuse himself and the same goes for Thomas but they won’t because they don’t believe in Justice or fairness. This is just a post of power for them. I also gave Alito more credit than the rest, and his excuse about his wife doesn’t fly with me.
I was a military wife and the last thing most military wives want to do is do stuff that can disgrace their spouse. She knows the position her husband holds. She didn’t do this on a whim. She did this with his blessing. Same for Thomas.

I’m also disgusted by the fact that anyone high up in the political world would disgrace a our Nations flag. In doing so they disgrace the men and woman who have fought and died for our nation. Republicans are quick to saying people who don’t stand up while the national anthem is playing are disgracing the flag and yet I believe this is far worse. One is quiet protest in hope of change and, the other is outright wanting to overthrow our nation.

He and Thomas have shown that they cannot and will not be impartial and have no respect for the nation they work for nor for the duty they should observe. They both should recuse themselves from anything Trump or Jan 6 related. But they won’t.

MrGrimm888's avatar

I heard his wife, was doing it “because of the actions of a neighbor.”
As much as I HATE these conservative agents/judges, I have to ask “what is a SCOTUS justices house supposed to look like?”
Should we critique every item, on ALL of their properties?

If you take the flying of the flag, in this instance, to be “pro-Trump,” there has been a “pro-Trump” flag flying at that house for years.
The deliberate delay of justice for Trump, is a thinly veiled job.

It has long been clear, that this SCOTUS, was constructed for this exact purpose.

It is a public rape, of the ideas America was allegedly founded on. When Trump gets “elected” again, we will see the DeathStar at full operational power.
They will systematically attack everything they even mildly disagree with, and there are many conservative judges that have been maneuvered into place at ALL levels of the US government.

The flag, in that manner, is really shoving it in people’s faces.
It’s brazen/stupid. It’s a really bad symptom, but not the disease it represents.

seawulf575's avatar

If this was such an outrage, why is it just coming out now? It supposedly happened almost 4 years ago. It is Constitutionally not possible to fire a SCOTUS justice so firing is out. Reprimands are up to the SCOTUS. Remember RBG and Elena Kagan participating in same-sex weddings when the Obergefell case was in their docket? That is an ethics issue, but any disciplinary actions are left to the SCOTUS and nothing happened. If the SCOTUS feels this is as big a deal as the lefties are trying to make it out, then they can take action.

It does make me wonder, though, what cases are coming into their purview that would make the lefties want to get rid of a right-leaning justice? This sort of thing comes up every time there is a controversial case in their docket.

JLeslie's avatar

@seawulf575 The flag at Alito’s house was 4 years ago?

chyna's avatar

@JLeslie Yes, it was in my OP.

Blackwater_Park's avatar

Flying the flag upside down is not unique to Trump supporters. It is a bipartisan symbol of protest, It’s a symbol that the country is in distress and it can be used as a sign of caution or warning. People don’t realize, but it’s not disgraceful to fly it upside down in the right context. What Alito meant by flying it upside down, you would have to ask him. Personally, If I saw a flag upside down after January 6 I would have seen it as being critical of the insurrection. That is not a disrespectful use, it’s appropriate. Before Jan 6 but after the election I would have seen it as critical of Biden winning the election which is not appropriate. Context matters here.

Forever_Free's avatar

He is stating that he knew nothing of it nor puts the flag up.
He won’t be fired.

JLeslie's avatar

@chyna Thanks. Seawulf575 is right, these delays are ridiculous, unless maybe it was reported 4 years ago and they are reviving the story because of the current court case, but the amount of time it took for these cases ro reach the courts is annoying too. Although, a friend went through being sued and the case took over three years to finally go to trial, so justice is slow.

Is Alito at least saying he would never do it again. Never let his wife do it again.

I predict he won’t impeached or forced off of a case.

People are appalled by kneeling at a football game, but support a US flag upside down. Ridiculous.

KNOWITALL's avatar

I think it’s a tongue in cheek ‘commentary’ no one can prove means anything. Thus nothing will happen.

MrGrimm888's avatar

^I know a lot of current/former military people, who get livid from seeing the flag upside-down.
To the point that they would consider violence.

Tropical_Willie's avatar

Fright wingers don’t care about the flag (the USA) only supporting the Tangerine Turd (and overthrowing the democracy) !

I feel that if it requires the House of Representatives to decide the election, the Oath Keepers and Proud Boys will start killing Democratic members of the House so the GOP will overwhelm the vote.

Trump said he will run for a third term, at NRA convention about the time he said Biden should be put in the electric chair if he wins 2024 !

Don’t need no stinking Constitution when you are the DICTATOR of the USA 2025.

jca2's avatar

@Tropical_Willie I also heard he said he is not saying he will accept the results of the 2024 election, and can’t say there won’t be violence. It’s amazing that he’s setting everything up for “Trump wins, or else.”

I agree with @KNOWITALL that as far as Alito goes, nothing will happen.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@MrGrimm888 Oh we take it seriously here, too. Most fly state flags when a Dem is in office.

Zaku's avatar

In case anyone ACTUALLY doesn’t understand, the significance of flying the US flag upside down right after January 6, 2021, was a way to signal that you believed Trump’s Big Lie (i.e. that Trump won the election, but it had been stolen from him, when there has never been any evidence of that, and there is a mountain of evidence that it was a lie planned in advance of the election by Trump).

That’s why a Supreme Court Justice signalling that, is a serious issue, and relevant in the current context of that court’s handling of Trump’s appeal for immunity from responsibility from any crimes he’s committed.

chyna's avatar

^This. Thank you!

Forever_Free's avatar

^^^ Agreed, Yet we have no idea or proof that THE Supreme Court Justice did this over 3 years ago. We can’t fire him or reprimand him for something his wife or staff may have done.

Blackwater_Park's avatar

@Zaku That is how you see it but many others don’t. That may have been true in some smaller circles but flying the flag upside down has a long history of meaning distress. Just because it was used in a specific protest does not mean it forever takes on the meaning of that protest. Many would have flown it that way because the nation was experiencing an insurrection and were opposed to it. Don’t let some journalist redefine what this means. This is not a symbol of Trump supporters. It has deeper, more important meanings. I also highly doubt that Alito meant it in a way that supports insurrection. I’m more inclined he would have intended it the way I mentioned.

MrGrimm888's avatar

^It shouldn’t be that way, but it often happens.
When hate groups adopt a symbol, it can absolutely be permanently associated with their actions.
The swastika, will not be making a comeback. It will likely forever represent Nazi culture.
The southern “rebel battle flag,” has been pretty much rendered a hate symbol. Often used by the KKK, and various other such groups.
I have to opine that the American flag, is has essentially been hijacked by the disgusting Don, and some people who fly it are definitely nationalists with right-wing beliefs.
There are American flags in 5/7 yards in my area. Out here, they almost ALL support Trump, and honestly it’s sad and disturbing.

I believe it’s relevant to say that to many foreign countries (right or wrong,) the American flag already IS a symbol of hate, oppression, and elitism.

You take something and drag it through enough dirt, and it will never be clean again.

The court of public opinion, inspired by the media, can absolutely stain a symbol.

JLeslie's avatar

^^This!!

It saddens me that the US flag (right side up) has practically been hijacked by the Republicans to be a symbol of their group. I still wear my shirts with flags on US holidays like Memorial day and July 4th, but the rest of the year I feel my flag shirts mark me Republican. Instead of it being a show of patriotism or identity it is now a political wedge. Many of my Democratic friends feel this way.

I do think the US flag can be saved if the country comes back from the edge and heals some of its division and stops accusing each other of being anti-American.

On my facebook sometimes people write we should all put flags out in front of our houses (all year). Inevitably that thread bears out that the OP is a Trumper.

For a year or so during Trump’s reign some houses had a black and white US flag with a blue line. I never see that anymore, I only see a blue line basic flag without the stars and stripes. I’ve been wondering about that change.

jca2's avatar

@JLeslie I think the black and white flag with the blue line you are describing is one to show support of the police, and that flag became popular after the BLM protests, when many people were saying defund the police. I still see that flag sometimes, on pickup trucks and stuff, as a flag sticker or on clothing.

seawulf575's avatar

@JLeslie ” I feel my flag shirts mark me Republican.” That statement says so much. People that don’t care about the flag are trying to use it as some smear for the people that do. It is a true statement, but what does it say about Democrats in general? Patriotism is bad? Caring about your country is bad? And now outrage over something that supposedly happened 4 years ago and was noted at the time with no reaction. A thing that goes against their outrage at you for being proud of your country.

JLeslie's avatar

@seawulf575 It does not say patriotism is bad at all. I identify as patriotic, and say it without any qualms. My Democratic friends love and care about America, and are grateful.

The flag has now become the costume of the lunatics, dressed up in US flags and put flags on their cars and houses and talk about NATIONALISM, and so they are using the flag as an identifier the way they used to use the confederate flag. The Republicans who aren’t fanatics still identify with a lot of what the extremists want and talk about, and get caught up in wanting to identify with those things, and some of those Republicans are naive about what the extremists are really pushing for. So, most Republicans are probably still comfortable identifying as a Republican, so wearing a flag doesn’t really register maybe as extremists changing that symbol for Americans in general.

Where I live we have a huge veteran and military retiree population, so we have a lot of flags out every holiday and also plenty throughout the year. We have a flag in all of the large rec centers, some of the clubs do the pledge at the beginning of every meeting. Patriotism is alive and well all around me. My husband and I have a huge wall hung flag we keep in our garage. Keep in mind he is a car guy so his garage is his happy man cave place not just a storage place.

ragingloli's avatar

Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel.

seawulf575's avatar

@JLeslie You say your Democrat friends love and care about America yet they instantly try to brand anyone that wears a flag as a decoration on a shirt as being some sort of rabid gasp Republican. So they don’t like anyone that displays something that calls out patriotism. And they certainly aren’t being as generous with others feelings as you are.

seawulf575's avatar

@ragingloli So how do you feel about Germany? Shithole? Great place?

JLeslie's avatar

@seawulf575 Not what I am saying. I’m saying the rabid people do wear that costume, it doesn’t mean everyone wearing or flying a flag is rabid.

When you see someone wearing a flag, and a flag pole on their lawn 12 feet high, what do you assume? Nothing? I can tell you 20 years ago I assumed nothing but that they were Americans.

seawulf575's avatar

@JLeslie I didn’t believe you were saying anything about anyone wearing a flag is anything. You mentioned “I still wear my shirts with flags on US holidays like Memorial day and July 4th, but the rest of the year I feel my flag shirts mark me Republican. Instead of it being a show of patriotism or identity it is now a political wedge. Many of my Democratic friends feel this way.” It sounded to me like your Democratic friends feel as if wearing a shirt with a flag on it other than two specific holidays makes you seem like a Republican. Am I not reading that right? That sounds like wearing something with a flag on it is only allowable for show at approved times otherwise you could be a Republican. To me that is saying Republicans don’t care about wearing it only at specific times and that is how you can tell them at a glance. It almost sounds like this is how you feel as well. Wearing a flag can be a fashion statement or it can be a sign of patriotism. Other than that it really has no meaning whatsoever. It is only in the minds of Democrats that it has become a gang symbol for Republicans. And that tells me Democrats don’t care about patriotism or even national pride. They want to bury it and/or denigrate it.

JLeslie's avatar

@seawulf575 I think if we Democrats see someone wearing a flag t-shirt outside of a holiday we wonder if they are Republicans. If they didn’t have that shirt on we wouldn’t be thinking politics at all. We know they also might not be a Republican. We don’t assume they are extremists or White nationalists, but they might be.

When you see someone wearing the flag do you assume or wonder anything about their political affiliation?

Kraigmo's avatar

This is a very weird news item because it briefly made news in January, 2021, then disappeared; And then came roaring back this week. How does that happen?
When it first happened, I wasn’t sure what to think of it. I was wondering if he was signalling his displeasure with the January 6th insurrectionists, at the time.
But now we know in hindsight… it more likely has to do with hinting displeasure at Biden’s inauguration.
Belief in Conspiracy Lies has affected the most powerful people in the nation, now.
Even though Supreme Court justices and Congressmen have access to to the truth of things even faster than we do…. some of them are so dead inside, and so lacking in curiosity, that they watch people like Sean Hannity and Tucker Carlson and actually believe what these guys say. It’s truly pathetic. Alito is a pathetic, worthless man. He’s also a predator. Seems like Alito and his wife have become brainwashed by political talk show hosts, just like Clarence Thomas and Ginni Thomas. And millions of braindead, simpleminded American men and women.
Trump and his allied talk show hosts are making a claim of the Crime of the Century: an election being stolen.
And yet EVERY TRUMP SUPPORTER IN AMERICA is too stupid, and too lacking in curiosity to even spend 15 minutes to see if such claims are true. The most they’ll do, is watch a Youtube video or Rumble video of some idiot telling them what to think.
They are 100% disinterested in facts and knowledge.
This kind of stupidity and lack of curiosity is an existential threat to America. It’s the greatest threat we’ve face in our lives. Far more toxic-ready-to-explode-in-our-immediate-faces than Russia ever was, or even ISIS.
Any person who supports Trump at this point, is an enemy of America. Either through their own evil, or their own stupidity.

seawulf575's avatar

@JLeslie No, I don’t think anything of it at all. That’s what I mean. You start wondering if they are somehow “the opposition”. As I said, I see the American flag on clothing as either being a fashion thing or a patriotic thing. I don’t consider if the person is a Repub, Dem, or Indy. It never even crosses my mind. You might want to question why it does cross yours.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@seawulf575 I can’t imagine being offended by apparel. I’ve seen ‘F#!$ God’ and everything else and never considered it my business or concern.

MrGrimm888's avatar

@JLeslie You’re just observing what I am.
And I’m REAL sorry to break it to everyone who thinks otherwise, but Trumpers don’t wear the American flag because they’re “patriotic.”
To them, it’s unquestionably becoming a Trump-mafia symbol.
I’m going to say it right now.
When I now see a person displaying the American flag, it tells me they probably support Trump, and they likely think they are superior to most.
Trump has been instrumental, in tying nationalism, racism, xenophobia, and every other anti-American ideology.

I can’t speak for the whole country, but a LOT of the yards that used to fly the Confederate Battle Flag, now fly just USA flags.

Trump and his sheep HAVE desecrated the American flag.
If/when Trump wins in November, it will be a symbol of his reign and his agenda.

It will no longer represent America. It will represent whatever twisted white Christian fantasy, his administration tries to force this country into.

Those Republicans making pilgrimages to see Trump, are ALL dressing like him. Red tie, and of course, an American flag pendant.

Upside-down, or otherwise, I won’t be caught wearing something that represents hate, fear, oppression, and greed.
It’s not up to me, to change that perception.
It’s up to the people, to bring the country back up to the standards that the American flag ACTUALLY represents.

MrGrimm888's avatar

@KNOWITALL You’re definitely exemplifying how we should never be upset about symbols, or controversial materials. It’s really not worth it.

I think that people who do such things, are seeking conflict. No reason to give them what they want.

I do not consider myself a patriot. I do love, the idea of America though.
The concept of true freedom, and a government that perfectly reflects it’s people, and their well being.

It does offend me, seeing Trumpers wrap themselves in the flag. To me, Trumpers are not worthy of such honor.

If Biden shows up at the debates dressed in an American flag themed Elvis suit, I think a lot of conservatives would be pretty upset. In fact, they will be upset, at every action of Biden.

MrGrimm888's avatar

Loli. “Diapers, over Dems.”
Yes.
In America, people like to name and flaunt their ignorance.
In the American South, we have what are called “Yellow dog Republicans.”
Their self-proclaimed agenda, is to “vote for a yellow dog, before a Democrat.”

This is yet another iteration, of Trump’s sheep’s tribalism. And obviously stupidity.
It’s funny that a party that doesn’t want gay marriage, because “what’s next, marrying a dog?” openly proclaim they would vote for one.

Blackwater_Park's avatar

Now hold on a minute. The left stopped flying the flag in large numbers and generally hold their nose up regarding anything patriotic. That is why you can spot a Republican based on their show of patriotism. It is most certainly not because the right “hijacked” the flag. It is because the left abandoned it. It is NOT a fucking Trump mafia symbol. That red hat abomination is.

AlaskaTundrea's avatar

My favorite flag apparel is whatever I’m wearing when I get my “I voted” sticker with the flag on it.

Kraigmo's avatar

Alito also sold his Anheuser Busch stock at the exact same time Kid Rock was shooting Bud Lite cans, and political talk hosts were piling all over “woke” Bud Lite.
Modern America has become a real-life Invasion of the Body Snatchers.
Alito is now compromised. It’s highly probable he has at least 5 of QAnon’s beliefs, if not more. He is no longer a thinking human.

JLeslie's avatar

@seawulf575 I told you why it crosses my mind. I also told you I myself still wear flag apparel. Not exclusively on holidays, but mostly.

@KNOWITALL I’m not offended at all by people wearing the American flag.

KNOWITALL's avatar

I agree 100% with @Blackwater_Park.

seawulf575's avatar

@JLeslie Yes, you have said that, but you keep contradicting yourself. You just told @KNOWITALL that you are not offended by people wearing the American Flag. But you stated before that you think they are Republicans, something I know you are not up on. So apparently you ARE offended if you see someone wearing a flag and it isn’t Memorial Day or the 4th of July. It makes you uneasy because they could be Republicans…they dress like them…and you get offended by Republicans.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@seawulf575 Remember @JLeslie has said with her identifying as a Jew, she feels targeted by Far Right extremists.

Imagine wearing a Pro-Life shirt to a Democrat event, perhaps her fears are justified to a degree. Just trying to empathize to see her side.
I think its fear more than offended, in her case but maybe I’m wrong.

chyna's avatar

And on another new note, Alito also had a flag at his beach home that was of an evergreen tree saying “Appeal to heaven”. “This flag was carried during the Jan. 6 riots. The flag dates back to the Revolutionary War, but in more recent years it’s become associated with Christian nationalism and support for Trump. It was carried by rioters fueled by Trump’s “Stop the Steal” movement animated by false claims of election fraud.”
So, I’m thinking that the upside down American flag was not about a feud with his neighbors. Again, Justices are supposed to not support either party.
Here is one article on this subject.

JLeslie's avatar

I didn’t use the word offended did I? If I did, I don’t remember it. I don’t associate the flag with being offended.

Fear can be correct, but fear only if it is a man or group of men in a place that an extremist would likely not be there, like a Christian Nationalist at a 200 person LGBT regular Tuesday night party. Again, I realize the person might not be a fanatic, he might be a patriotic guy who is LGBT himself. I’m just saying our antennae would go up until we saw how he was interacting. A woman wouldn’t probably make me nervous.

I see flag shirts all of the time here in the town squares, in zumba, in all places, around town, and I don’t think twice about it in those places, meaning I am not afraid. I think that person is more likely to be a Republican, but really cannot assume here where I live.

It is only Republicans (as far as I know) who get on facebook and tell us to put up flags in front of our houses. They are the only ones who are so vocal about it.

JLeslie's avatar

Adding that this change to feeling the flag represents Trumpers, QAnon, White Nationists, etc, started during Trump. Before that it would never occur to me to associate the US flag with a political party or ideology. It’s actually quite upsetting that the flag has been hijacked like that. I feel like Democrats should ignore it for the most part and not let the flag be taken from us. It is interesting that the Republicans on the Q were unaware of this dynamic, and maybe it is more in the minds of Democrats.

@chyna OMG. “They” really are working their way into our government. Alito is too smart to not know. I say this because some people are very ignorant and just don’t know what message they are sending. Like the aunt of a friend of mine used to wear confederate flags and put up confederate flags on her car when tailgating and picnics with her circle of friends. She thought it was cute. She lived in Minnesota, so no excuse that it just meant Southern pride to her. She admits to being completely clueless and out of touch with what the flag meant to Black people and other minorities. She doesn’t do it anymore. All of the press about South Carolina taking down the flag and Mississippi changing their flag clued her in.

MrGrimm888's avatar

I’m just offended that people who want to turn America into a theocratic dictatorship, wear/fly the American flag.
The MAGA hats are SO 2016.
Those gloves, are off.
It always meant Make America Whote/Christian Again.
Sorry folks, but if the country becomes a Christian version of Pakistan, yeah I’ll equate the flag with those people.
It’s certainly not my fault, that nationalism has gripped the sheep.
And I couldn’t disagree more about abandoning the flag.
America has NEVER been the nation, that I was taught about in school. That was an indoctrination, not an education.
THAT is why universities are always the hot spot, for protest, and/or liberal thinking.
Those students are just realizing all the lies they’ve been raised on, and that revelation disturbs a lot of people.

I respect anyone’s love of the flag, or country.
However. The reality is, that blind loyalty is dangerous and subversive to the concept of America.

The founding fathers, had just wrestled control back, from tyranny. They certainly didn’t want the president, or the flag, to outrank the people.
These Trumpers buying American flag crap, made in China, are NOT American. They are seperatists, and bigots.
The American flag represents America, NOT Christianistan.
If THAT is what Trumpers turn this country into, I will 100% denounce (not abandon,) the FORMER symbol of freedom.

JLeslie's avatar

@MrGrimm888 When I lived in the Memphis are one of the churches had in front a mini (still tall) statue of liberty holding a cross instead of a torch. I saw the same thing driving on an interstate through Alabama. I don’t know if that is a specific church and they are all connected? I have said on Q’s before, Rafael Cruz (Ted’s dad) is on the CNN special Report Deep in the Pockets of Texas saying it is a lie that Christianity is supposed to be separate from government. Here is the episode if you have not seen it https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7B3PTuADIHQ It is not just Texas from what I can tell.

I hate the name Christian Nationalists though, because a lot of Christians who are not Christian Nationalists don’t seem to be aware how the term is used and then when we generalize about Christian Nationalists they think we are stereotyping all Christians. It is frustrating.

Worse, some every day Christians do identify as Nationalists, because they have been sold a benign definition that many of us do not agree with.

Nationalist is like saying Nazi to me. Maybe because the Nazis were Nationalists.

Blackberry's avatar

Kind of a naive question….just because you’re supposed to be impartial doesn’t mean you actually are.

Why would you expect a powerful person to follow a rule?

seawulf575's avatar

@KNOWITALL Now we are saying “far-right extremists”. In her original statement it was “Republicans”. That is my point. You can see how things migrate. If seeing an American flag makes you think that person is a Republican and you equate Republicans with far-right extremists, there is an issue.

JLeslie's avatar

@seawulf575 I said far right extremists use the flag and so do every day Republicans wear it too. Stop making shit up. Pay attention. Since the extremists made that their uniform, when we see a flag we don’t know if they are extremists or not.

chyna's avatar

@Blackberry I think they could be a little discreet about their leanings.

seawulf575's avatar

@JLeslie But they could be Republicans gasp. And you can’t really tell, they might be extremists. Or they could just be patriotic, something the Dems generally don’t display.

JLeslie's avatar

@seawulf575 My main point was I think people might assume I am Republican when I wear a flag. It’s not that it’s such a terrible thing, I’m registered Republican right now! If they look me up that’s what they will see.

I’m happy to report that driving to Zumba today there are flags everywhere! All the subdivision entrances are decorated, also little flags around lots of lawns, I saw lots of flag shirts and leggings in zumba, and we will have ceremonies for Memorial Day. I usually try to attend, but I won’t be home.

JLeslie's avatar

@seawulf575 When someone is worried about safety they aren’t thinking the person might be benign, they are worried the person might be violent. You probably rarely feel like you are a target of violence so you don’t identify with the feeling. You aren’t a woman, you aren’t a minority, the people annoyed with your politics are anti-gun, you don’t have much to worry about on a daily basis.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@JLeslie That makes total sense to me. I hope you understand when I say with all due respect that it is not up to us to assuage, pander to or defend stereotypes or misconceptions.
If Dems can shout abortions, do sit-ins and riot while armed (BLM) please don’t expect Reps/Libertarians to water ourselves down.

seawulf575's avatar

@JLeslie Go back and look at the BLM/Antifa riots of 2020. Look at the radical moves by the mindless drones on campuses. Is anyone really safe with this sort of lunacy going on? And if I may point out, it is the right that is fighting to restore sanity to all this, not reacting with more lunacy. But that isn’t the narrative of the left. They take to the streets and burn buildings, loot, attack people and the complicit Dems and media say they are peaceful protests. They pull terrorist attacks on campuses, spouting hate speech and taking over buildings and holding them hostage and the Dems and media side with the out of control group. At the same time they spout all sorts of drivel about how the Right Wingers are the dangerous group, that they are the threat to democracy, etc. It is projectionism at the very best. Please don’t buy into that idea.

JLeslie's avatar

@KNOWITALL I agree that Republicans can’t control the extremists and shouldn’t be judged and stereotyped based on extremists associated with their party, just like Democrats have the same problem.

What we can do is be reasonable voices willing to criticize the extremists, and I think it’s important we really listen to people’s fears. During Trump my husband stopped wearing his Mexico shirts, During the Gaza war some campuses feel hostile towards Jewish kids, just as two examples, all of these type of things are troubling.

@seawulf575 I’m not projecting. Wrong jelly. I have always denounced Antifa when they are behaving badly. I had a problem with people who threatened violence on campuses when a Republican was going to be a speaker. I was troubled by looting in Chicago during BLM and what happened in Portland. Looting isn’t Antifa necessary, it is looters. There are opportunists, and separate from that there are people purposely using a protest to cause trouble. Most protesters aren’t trouble makers, they just care about a cause or think they do anyway.

seawulf575's avatar

@JLeslie I didn’t mean you were projecting, but the Dems and their complicit media sure do. They give the talking points that Republicans are dangerous. They give the talking points that Republicans are a threat to democracy while they commit lawfare against their political rivals and use the government in numerous ways to silence criticisms.

As for trying to say looting isn’t Antifa is sort of disingenuous and extraordinarily generous to Antifa. They were the ones that pushed the riots. With riots comes looting. Yes, there were a lot of people looting, but it was certainly Antifa and BLM that set the stage for that to happen.

Tropical_Willie's avatar

@seawulf575 When did Antifa break into to Congress shouting. “Hang Mike Pence” ?

Asking for someone with more than a high school degree !

Overthrowing the US Government is a little more important than having a group of fright-wingers a afraid of their losing control of fascist wannabe GOP party.

Definition Antifa – - – ANTI FASCIST !

Does that make you pro-fascist ?

MrGrimm888's avatar

^Trumpers think Obama invented ANTIFA.
You can’t expect them to even loosely understand what they are worked up about.

The biggest problem, is that many conservatives don’t see their agendas as fascist. Well. More accurately, they don’t like being called out for it.
Just like they don’t want to be labeled racist, although the agendas they support are.

I’m pleased “looting” was mentioned.
There is a conservative angle on that concept as well.
As evidenced by the way people reacted to Katrina ravaged New Orleans, during GWB’s (republican administration) time.
The republican led efforts essentially abandoned thousands of poor, and/or defenseless people to the storm.
The pictures of white people taking things from stores, were captured with things like “lucky survivors find food.”
The minorities, when doing the same, were “looting.”

Unfortunately. Reality, and history, do not help the Republicans.
The party that “freed the slaves,” has devolved, and changed considerably. And they know it, they just don’t want to wear the stain of their backward, obsolete, un-American values.

Trump has obviously empowered ALL bigots, racists and Christian zealots to not be ashamed of themselves.
No matter if your underwear, to your hat, is covered in stars and stripes, you are NOT a patriot.
Nationalism, is NOT patriotism.

And the concept of America, is exponentially more righteous, than that of Christian America.

A common saying about Muslims, is that the religion is prone to producing violent extremists. To many, it is inevitable that anti-western terrorism will erupt from Muslim nations.

Christianity, is clearly just as destructive.

Religious beliefs, have no place in this millenia.
The world and universe around it, are full of actual problems, and reality is that religions just slow our entire species down.

ALL religions, are likely to produce extremists.
The Muslim, and Christian religions do not require extremism. Just numbers.

Numbers eventually overthrow governments, or change them to suit their interpretation of their religious beliefs.

The Catholic church, has long been aware of how to use humanity to further it’s manufactured power, and influence.

Which is where we come full circle, back to Europe where thousands of years before Mussolini in Italy, Rome fell. The wealth of the Roman empire, never left Italy. It’s still there, in The Vatican, bankrolling Jesus (worldwide Catholic power.)

To see why current religions are practiced, while others have been relegated to “mythology,” one only needs to understand Darwinism. The most violent, and brutal organized religions killed off (literally) the competing religions.

And now, in America, we have a religious minority, that is trying to force the USA into being a Christian version of Pakistan.
Obviously. Violent acts (including attempting to steal the presidential nomination,) and ambitious ideas of using laws to enforce religions ideology are the tools of the current conservatives.
There is NOTHING about their agenda, that isn’t pro-white-christian.

I think the fact that Christian America is apparently ok, with Trump Bibles, speaks volumes to their official relationship with coordinating with the government to push Christian propaganda.

That’s something that even the Muslims wouldn’t tolerate. Can you imagine, if a politician made their own version of The Koran?
Of course not…

It’s worth noting, that during the American Revolutionary War, the British sympathizers, were considered to be “Patriots.”..

As we often discuss words being thrown around, the word “patriot,” has a wide spectrum.

seawulf575's avatar

@Tropical_Willie Isn’t it funny that you go to one riot (barely) by the right and ignore the dozens by the left? Which side physically impacted more people? The left. Which side killed people? The left. Which side burned businesses and public buildings? The left. And, just for your education, J6 was not an insurrection or an attempt to overthrow the government. I know you believe that because that is what your leftist media tells you, but when 840 people are arrested and not a single one is charged with insurrection, your claim is patently false.

seawulf575's avatar

@MrGrimm888 “The biggest problem, is that many conservatives don’t see their agendas as fascist.” You’re right, we don’t. Here’s a good definition of Fascism

“A system of government marked by centralization of authority under a dictator, a capitalist economy subject to stringent governmental controls, violent suppression of the opposition, and typically a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism

So let’s look at the left and the right and see who is doing what. (1) a system of government marked by centralization of authority under a dictator. Neither side currently has a dictator and our Constitution doesn’t allow it. But which side wants centralization of authority? The left. They fight tooth and nail to remove governmental control from the state level. They are the ones that push for a bloated, overbearing central government. (2) a capitalist economy subject to stringent governmental controls. Who pushes for bigger government with more controls? The left. Conservatives want smaller government with less control. (3) Violent suppression of the opposition. Who has weaponized the government? The left. Who takes to the streets in riots whenever they aren’t immediately given whatever bullshit thing they demand? The left. Who doxxes people that disagree with them? The left. Conservatives do not do these things for the most part. (4) Typically a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism. Sort of a mixed bag here. Conservatives tend towards nationalism, but not to the point of being belligerent. They just believe in the country. But the left doesn’t believe in nationalism at all. They don’t want the country to exist other than as a piggy bank for them. But racism? That hangs out with the left. The left always tries to make everything about race. They make shit up to call it racism just to keep people divided.

While neither side is totally Fascist by this definition, the left sure is a whole hell of a lot closer to it than the right. But you are right, those on the left don’t want to admit to it. You just made that abundantly clear. But what the left also does far more than the right is projectionism. They have a thought or are taking an action and assign those things to the right. Again, your claims about Fascism show this as well.

MrGrimm888's avatar

^I don’t have to read past your definition. You described the conservative agenda succinctly.

That is exactly why ANTIFA, has grown here. To stop the rule of violence and tyranny, even if the government has other ideas.
MOST of the world, learned a LOT, from the world wars.
The pathway to catastrophe, is clear, and avoidable.

I didn’t “project” J6, or the conservative attempts at bullying voters, gerrymandering, attacking voters rights, and the entire democratic process.

I have not “projected” anything on to conservatives.
If conservatives don’t like being seen this way, AND THEY ARE, then they should follow the Christian values they proclaim to. Not try to steal the last free country.
Conservatives are a dying breed, and that is why they are making this last panicked attempt at keep as much power as they can, before they are rendered extinct. Before Christianity is where it belongs, in the history books next to Mount Olympus, Anubus, and ALL other mythology. So that ALL humans, not just Christians, can move forward.

Your tired, and factually lacking arguments trying to spin the narrative are as always ineffective, and help galvanize my “fear of being culturally replaced” theory quite well.

You are correct, that many on the left, do not support nationalism. The country *IS designed, to work FOR it’s people.”
Not serve the interests of a dying, obsolete religion. Or to serve the minority white men, who stand to gain the most from their abuse of their power in DC.

“Projection,” since you apparently struggle with that concept, is what you do when you say ALL immigrants are drug dealers, and rapists.
Projection, is calling people “Crooked Hillary,” or “SleepyJoe,” or constantly slandering the law enforcement agencies that are doing their jobs trying to hold Trump accountable for his many crimes.
Projection, is calling facts “fake news.”
Projection, is lying about your worth, to “project” the image that you are more wealthy than you are, for profit.
Projection, is saying that Trump made himself a billionare with only $1 million, instead of $450 million, and a well documented pattern of bad/unethical business dealings.
Projection, is putting your own likeness, and agenda, into the Christian Bible.

I am just making observations. Calling ‘em, as I see ‘em.
Strike. Ball. Strike. Ball. Foul. Etc.
When a conservative is on the mound, there is a lot to call.

seawulf575's avatar

^You are hopeless. You can’t see the forest for the trees. Carry on.

Tropical_Willie's avatar

@seawulf575 you can’t see the forest for the fascists. You seem to love an authoritarian and one-sided government.

seawulf575's avatar

@Tropical_Willie Actually, I can see the Fascists for the Fascists. Too bad you can’t. You support them blindly.

ragingloli's avatar

@Tropical_Willie
It has zero self awareness.

Tropical_Willie's avatar

I Know REALLY !

Hitler must have been a liberal left winger . . .don’t you think @ragingloli ? ?

ragingloli's avatar

@Tropical_Willie
That is actually what they have claimed in the past. They are completely delusional.

MrGrimm888's avatar

^They aren’t delusional. They are scared. And scared animals, do stupid, desperate things.
Like cling to their power and culture, by ANY means necessary.
They have deliberately abandoned logic, because it suits them.

I worked part time in a place that sold guns, during Obama’s last term. The exact same morons that were preparing for the inevitable attack by Obama, in which they would have their firearms stolen and be put into “camps,” are still so gullible that they will believe whatever they are told if it unites them through their fear and intolerance.

They want to pull the brown people off of the US, like a band-aid. As fast as possible.
They want people to stop educating their children, because it inevitably leads to many turning away from conservative values.

JLeslie's avatar

Just posted in a Democratic facebook group where I live:

On this memorial day, honor the veterans. Our flag is a symbol for freedom. Many veterans have fought wars for freedom from fascism. The GOP has tried to co-opt our flag, we need to take it back. I, for one, am going to start flying the American flag on the flagpole in front of my house. I also plan to buy a Biden flag to out on my flagpole. It has had no flag for a while.

Here’s an article she posted with it. https://peoplepowerunited.substack.com/p/its-my-flag-actually-its-not-its?utm_source=post-email-title&publication_id=1499421&post_id=145009403&utm_campaign=email-post-title&isFreemail=true&r=pyoej&triedRedirect=true&utm_medium=email&fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAAR0SroC4H-sjtnFzES6YW2t2UWAUOHq-Doeq7DmXCsklZLBBQHqH8RSBZfw_aem_Aca9uciTWxRXXlWwdH43SgiOOAGUBfCQnL55ezCVunq7viTebfv-pXdO9IsNEXwbTTxvqkC9VjEmaiQzpyVqyp2n

seawulf575's avatar

@Tropical_Willie, @ragingloli, and @MrGrimm888 : who is “They” and how do you know what “they” think?

Blackwater_Park's avatar

@JLeslie I still find it obnoxious that many on the left still try to claim that the GOP has attempted to co-opt the flag when it was those same voices that simply abandoned it earlier. But it’s good for them to want to fly the flag again.

JLeslie's avatar

@Blackwater_Park Who abandoned it? After this Q it seems to me many Republicans didn’t feel like they were taking the flag as a symbol only for them, but rather it is what I said, Democrats felt the lunatics (by lunatics I am talking about extremists) were using it as their calling card, which made Democrats feel like they were using the flag as theirs.

Blackwater_Park's avatar

I was perfectly clear. Republicans never thought it was only for them. Left-wing pundits said this and that extremists were using it as their calling card. Neither of which is actually true.

JLeslie's avatar

^^I’ve never heard a left wing pundit say anything about it. It was only how I felt, and when I voiced it to friends many Democrats I knew said they felt the same. Some said they hadn’t felt that way.

Even Trump recognizes. Why do you think he hugs the flag? All you have to do is look at Jan 6th video and see memes from bots, trolls, and actual Republicans in Facebook to see they use the flag as part of their schtick.

JLeslie's avatar

Guy in front of me right now, his t-shirt says, “I stand for the flag and kneel for the cross.” Big flag on his shirt.

Who do you think he votes for?

seawulf575's avatar

@JLeslie Independent? I have a similar license plate and am an Independent.

JLeslie's avatar

^^Yes, but you vote for Trump. I asked who do you think that man votes for.

I would say a hefty percentage of Trump loyalists are registered Independent, because they identify as Libertarians, even though they don’t really follow what a Libertarían definition is, but they are in their minds small government and low taxes and they kind of line up with the Republican rhetoric on those counts.

MrGrimm888's avatar

^“They” no longer follow ANY of the previous values of the conservative/republican party, nor do “they” follow the moral compass that “they” claim their religion gives “them.”
I know EXACTLY how ”they” think. I talk to “them,” with unfortunate frequency.
“They,” will say all kinds of racist, violent things, *especially to another white man.
“They” assume, that because I am Caucasian, I am on some white team.
“They” often look around, to make sure we aren’t around certain people, and then start saying disturbingly ridiculous things.
“They” want what’s best, JUST for “them.” Shoot, or deport the rest, and reenactment the “Muslim Travel Ban,” with more additions so they don’t even have to see brown people.

“They” are easily panicked, and even more easily manipulated.
“They” want change, for the sake of change.
“They” would rather act oblivious to what “they” are trying to do, but as “they” are “them,” “they” have been exposed by “their” false profit.
Trump (a “they”) emboldened “them” to show “their” TRUE COLORS.
“They” should be ashamed.
They” know, who “they” are

MrGrimm888's avatar

@JLeslie You perhaps forgot (or weren’t aware,) that a hefty amount of the idiots wearing such shirts probably don’t vote. Some cannot vote, because of criminal history.
As for such garb, I think it tells me immediately that the person wearing it, is perhaps exponentially more stupid than I would think without their “patriotic/theocratic” fashion. Stupid people die, at a faster pace than others.
The guy in front of you, may already have died in a road rage accident. Likely because he was driving recklessly, in a big truck. Possibly because he was drunk, on whatever he drank after Bud Light was “tainted.”

The people hear getting offended at the idea that Trumpers have abused/stolen the US flag, need to remember when a single LGBTQ + person ”stole” Bud Light.

The difference between a non-Trumper and a Trumper is; conservatives shot/destroyed Bud Light, and posted it, to reject their previous beer of choice. Over ONE ad.
Even though the Trumpers have unquestionably adopted the US flag, as a sign of intolerance, bigotry, homophobia, white supremacy/“nationalism,” anti-democracy, anti-women’s rights, anti-ANYTHING not supporting Christianity, etc.
Probably, from now on.

JLeslie's avatar

@MrGrimm888 I know a lot of them don’t vote, but many do. I don’t think they have stolen the flag “from now on” because a lot of Democrats are annoyed about it, and from what I can tell from some of these articles I have now come across, there is some encouragement to fight back against it. Fight is the wrong word, but anyway to try to keep the flag for all Americans.

I recently have seen some Christian Ministers and Preachers speaking out against the Trump bible, speaking out against putting government and the bible in one book. There are definitely some sane Christian leader voices out there, and certainly we already know many Christians reject Trump and even reject the Republican party, considering there are 70% Christians in our country, and plenty of them are registered Democrats. I just want to make it clear that I don’t think this guy wearing the flag shirt in front of me somehow represents all Christians in the US, he certainly does not, but my Chirstian friends who are not Trumpers would never wear a shirt like that.

MrGrimm888's avatar

^Well that’s the problem.
I used to fly the confederate flag, when I was a young teenager.
There was NOTHING racist about it.
As I grew into my late teens, that flag had become a symbol of the KKK, and other crazy shit.
Oddly, never to far away from Nazi thinking, or fascism.
So.
I have not even possessed a confederate flag, for going on 35 years.
I didn’t like letting it go.
It was always around me, as a boy. When my family lived in Germany in the 80’s, he had a confederate flag there.
It represented the unique style of culture we all had, and our pride that we were different (not better) than people “up north.”

But. I understand, the hurt that symbol causes/represents now.
As a result, I cannot possibly display a confederate flag, and supported finally pulling it from our state buildings.

It is not up to ME, to save the flag. It is up to the Trumpers.
And when (not if) I see his “poll watchers” armed and in armor sporting the American flag during the upcoming election, that will further damage the flag.

I don’t support things, I don’t believe in. I’m losing my belief in America.

If anyone thinks that Trump hasn’t harmed the reputation of the US flag abroad, you are mistaken there as well.
If he is elected, it may not be safe for American citizens to travel abroad.
People will be breaking out their Canadian flags again, when they all overseas….

I know you’re right @JLeslie , that that guy doesn’t represent ALL Christian people.
But. THAT is the current face, of Christianity. In danger of forever being linked to regimes like Hitler’s, and Trump’s…..

If you saw Captain America, in front of you in his costume today, he would most certainly be some poor fool Trumper…

JLeslie's avatar

@MrGrimm888 The confederate flag has represented hate my entire lifetime, because I am one of the minorities the KKK hated. The segregated South, KKK, and confederate flag, have always been intertwined for me and many others. I do understand that many Southerners just saw it as a representation of Southern Pride and not racism, but the negative effect on others was always there.

…that guy doesn’t represent ALL Christian people. But. THAT is the current face, of Christianity. In danger of forever being linked to regimes like Hitler’s, and Trump’s…..

Maybe. That’s pretty sad. I kind of resist accepting that. I especially have a hard time with Catholics being extremists, but on our Supreme Court it is mostly Catholics pushing through all of these conservative changes. I always thought of American Catholics as understanding their bible will not be the one taught if we allow religion in public schools, and that Evangelicals don’t even accept them as Christians (offensive to me) and remember how the Christian conservatives were against Kennedy, citing his religion, and the KKK put the Catholics in the same category at Black people. I just think the Catholics going along with the far alt-right are being duped. It’s like they don’t know history. People like Michael Flynn are even leading the way, he is scary.

seawulf575's avatar

@JLeslie Yes, I’ve voted for Trump. But I vote for the candidate I believe is best for the country. Like it or not, something like 70% of voters don’t think the country is on the right track with Democrats and their policies. When the only reason you are giving for someone to vote for you is because they should “Hate Trump” you aren’t showing anything of substance. You are merely trying to divide the country. Why would I want to support that?

This thread has completely dissembled, but if you follow the thread, it is because those on the left are completely unhinged, IMO. It started with a question about an incident that happened 4 years ago and is suddenly making big news again. It then moved down to how “Fright-wingers” don’t care about the flag, how much a piece of shit Donald Trump is, how wearing a flag has turned into some sort of hate group symbol, and on and on and on.

When something about a conservative comes up, those on the left run to the echo chamber to spew whatever nonsense they feel like tossing out there and they feed on each other. Pick any political question out there and you will see this is the case.

JLeslie's avatar

@seawulf575 We are talking about the Trump fanatics and Christian Nationalist and White Supremacists using the flag as a symbol for them. Yes, the Democrats have a strong reaction to those people. They all intersect, but not 100% synonymous.

Both political parties work at scaring their constituents, or trying to scare people into switching to their side, because fear motivates people to unite and to vote. I think the Republicans did it best for a long time, but both parties use the tactic now, there is no question about it.

The new wrinkle is Trumpers seem to welcome a civil war and they are armed. Of course Americans are afraid of that bullshit. Most people don’t want to destroy the country with a war.

As far as the country being dissatisfied with Biden. Plenty of presidents had high dissatisfaction rates before being re-elected. What is the satisfaction rate when people are polled today? I assume very low. Do you care? Would you care? Probably not.

Most people wish we had different candidates to choose from, but my guess is you don’t wish that. Did you vote for Trump in the MO primary?

seawulf575's avatar

@JLeslie The rhetoric being pushed by the Dems is dangerous. They make a crime and then try to find criminals. There was a story out back in 2022 I believe where Biden got together with the Anti-Defamation League and the Southern Poverty Law Center to identify White Supremacists and Right Wing Extremists. A bunch of FBI agents let is out that there were more agents investigating these groups than there were members of the groups. They were being forced to “fit” people into the narrative. They had quotas to meet. That is how a father who blew up at a school board for them covering up his daughter’s rape by a boy that “identified as a woman” got branded as a right wing terrorist. It was this same mentality that had the FBI putting undercover informants in Catholic Churches to look for those evil Christian Nationalists and right wing extremist groups. ‘Cause we all know anyone that is a Catholic is likely to be a terrorist. Gotta find those demons somewhere, right?

And that is the same crap you are spewing now. You have swallowed the entire “Trump fanatics” narrative. Who exactly are the “Trump fanatics”? Someone that doesn’t swear Trump is the Anti-Christ? Somebody that doesn’t use the term “Fright Winger” to define people that don’t sing the left wing narrative at the top of their lungs? And now it is showing pride in the American flag. That automatically makes you suspect. That is exactly what you are saying. You may not think that is what you are saying, but it is.

Here’s a thought: We have been going the way of the left for the last 30 years. The country has been getting progressively worse and worse. And the left has been demonizing anyone that dares to call that out or push back against the agendas. How is that healthy? How is that defending democracy? That is the tactics of the Nazis. How’d that work out for them? How’d it work out for Jews?

JLeslie's avatar

@seawulf575 I criticize the left wing constantly. I defended DeSantis much of the time during covid. I’ve said I stopped watching Morning Joe on MSNBC regularly now that they shifted so far left and are so redundant and one sided. I don’t blindly follow along. You are accusing the wrong person.

Do you criticize the far right? You defend them, and I guess are part of them. You might not go into the Capitol and beat up a police officer, but you are loathe to criticize anything they do, and use their symbolism and language.

Forget Trump. What about Michael Flynn, Rafael Cruz, and other people who preach that the US is not supposed to be a separation of church and state, but rather the US is supposed to have Christianity in the government. Do you denounce that? We know you use terms like White Culture, unless you have walked away from that in recent years.

seawulf575's avatar

@JLeslie Yes, you completely deny buying into the left, yet you also make statements like ” We are talking about the Trump fanatics and Christian Nationalist and White Supremacists using the flag as a symbol for them. Yes, the Democrats have a strong reaction to those people. They all intersect, but not 100% synonymous.” In other words, those that wear a flag or hang a flag at their home might just be radicals…it’s a sign of them. That is what you are saying.

As for criticizing the far right, let’s define that. I’m pretty centrist when it comes to it…that’s why I’m an Independent. But by today’s standards, the left has pushed things so far to the left that even being a centrist is looked at as being “far right”. I like Trump’s policies far better than anyone on the left has had for decades, that is true. I think it is what this country needs to remain a country instead of degrading to 3rd world status and handing everything over to the globalists. Do I think Trump is a great guy? Nope, not at all. I’ve stated that many times on these pages. However if you look (getting back to centrist being far right) many of your fellow lefties accuse me of being a radical right wing extremist because I won’t say Trump is something worse than Satan.

Addressing your wild challenge about Michael Flynn or Rafael Cruz (not sure who that is) I cannot actually address their views since I have never heard their views. I think Michael Flynn is a poster boy for the Dems weaponization of the government over all the crap surrounding the bogus Trump/Russia investigation. Threatening him and his family if he doesn’t admit to doing something wrong is pretty crappy and worthy of a 3rd world nation. That is what the Dems bring to the party. But as far as separation of church and state, I have stated my views on that very succinctly over the years. We are a nation that was founded on Judeo-Christian values, but we are not a theocracy (like Palestine). Anyone trying to push a state religion on everyone is getting push back from me. That is 180 degrees out from what our Founding Fathers pictured. However, the idea of a separation of church and state gets pretty squirrelly sometimes. The coach praying at the 50 yd line (on the sideline) after winning a game was considered a violation of church and state because a lefty group tried saying that praying on school grounds was all that was needed. That is not what the idea of a separation of church and state is all about. Meanwhile, those same lefties came to the support of the school/teacher that forced all the students to right out the Muslim Affirmation Prayer to Allah as part of a “calligraphy” exercise, threatening them with a failing grade if they didn’t do it. Now that DOES sound like a problem to me. Using the school (a government entity) and the power of those working at the school to force a religious pray onto everyone just seems like a textbook violation of the idea of a government sponsored religion. But the Dems and the left don’t think like I do…they supported it. Do you? Or are you willing to denounce it?

White Culture: I don’t remember ever using that phrase. I believe that white people have as much a culture as everyone else. To deny that is entirely racist. To support every single division in our society and deny that support to white people and, worse yet, try to blame white people for every perceived wrong anyone else wants to claim is likewise racist. Am I wrong? Or do you believe that white people are the root of all evil and are less than every other ethnic entity out there?

JLeslie's avatar

I will end on this Q by saying I am, and always have been, happy and very grateful to live in a country that has separation of church and state and in a country that has a majority Christian. I mean that with all sincerity.

MrGrimm888's avatar

Wulf. ALL law enforcement agencies usually outnumber the people they are investigating. That is THE POINT of these agencies. To work collectively, to address law and national security.
I’m sorry you have been deceived into thinking that this was something unique. That is OFTEN the case. As Trump is always crying about being a victim.

If you were to decide to barricade yourself in your house, with one or more family members you would eventually see dozens of police, and eventually SWAT show up at your house.
The longer you stay hold up, the more officers will decend on you. That is how the law, is enforced.

AGAIN. It is THE job of agencies like the FBI, to investigate people EXACTLY like Trump.
Weather you believe he colluded with Russia, or not, Trump did exhibit business, and personal behavior worthy of an in depth investigation.
If you want to call ot a “Witch hunt,” I can actually agree with you. But. Witch hunts, by definition, never turn up anything.
In Trump’s case, they found a LOT of witches.
Many people have gone to prison, over their relationships with Trump.
You’re not an idiot. So I know, that you know, Trump is being shielded from being held legally accountable for his actions.
IF Trump is SO innocent, then why has he NEVER testified, or been questioned by his peers in the government?
An innocent man, has nothing to fear, in an American court. Even thinking otherwise is anti-American…
As our nation was indeed founded on principles.
Our democracy, and justice system are two of the biggest parts of America’s foundation.
The fact that we give people “fair” trials, and elect our leaders, is what seperates us from nations like Russia, China, or North Korea.
Trump has managed to avoid almost all of his legal proceedings, and thanks to the SCOTUS, America will not see a former president even face a “fair” trial.

In addition, we have already heard, from Trump’s mouth directly, that he will not accept the election results, if he is defeated again.
Well. He said “well. It depends, on of it’s a fair election.”
That is extremely non-subtle verbiage.

Trump has been found guilty for sexual assault, and slander, TWICE by the same woman.
Because he can’t keep his stupid mouth shut.

He’s on tape, trying to defraud the POTUS election. ON TAPE!
And you STILL, try and play stupid. Well. You’re playing really well. Like a good sheep….

I’m personally sick of Trump’s idiots. It’s embarrassing, watching these people defame themselves.
Yes. The US flag, that once covered us all, has been pulled ALL the way to “right” side of the bed.
Yes.
Unfortunately. That means that the flag has been likely forever tainted by the conservatives holding Trump up.

Fortunately. America, or the concept, is much bigger and more complex than a piece of cloth made in China….

I rather enjoy all of these extreme anomalies that you like to project onto entire groups of people.
Muslim calligraphy.
Well. Calligraphy DID originate in Asia.
I have NEVER heard that story.
I’m not saying it didn’t happen, but if it did, it was SO important, it only survived in the obscurity of the dozens of ridiculous right-wing media “news” archives.
Where you heard it, and faithfully regurgitated it elsewhere. And for THE sole purpose of supporting Trump.

I like that you brought up that rape AGAIN, with the trans-bathroom “catastrophe.”
As it is SO anomalous, it’s the only story you can cling to.
Meanwhile, conservatives are banning books, and trying to make even talking about homosexuality illegal.

You try and defend women, with that story. You’re angry a girl got raped.
But. You spend hours each week, defending a sexual predator, and although you claim to have superior ethics, which you credit Christianity with, you DO NOT walk, your talk.

Why don’t you research all the ways women have died, trying to get an abortion? Clothes hanger abortions, and illegal medicine?
You will not have to deep dive, for anomalies, like you do for your examples.
According to National Institutes of Health, approximately 20 million “unsafe” abortions are attempted each year.
78,000 women die, each year, from such procedures.

PLEASE. Stop this tired charade, of misrepresenting the right as caring about females.
You aren’t fooling ANYONE.

And you can pound the table all day, about your desire for separation of state, or your support for the constitution, but when you constantly tie yourself to the people who would do the most harm to what America is, you are contradicting yourself.

I’m the one, who brought up the conservatives stealing the flag. @JLeslie just agrees with me.
I have NEVER heard a single news story, about it.
It was an observation I made, way back in this thread.
And I think it is quite relevant, to the thread’s subject.
And she hit the nail right on the head, when she mentioned that most people do want different candidates to choose from, but not you. It didn’t slip past me, that you didn’t address that accusation. Because she’s right.
And you know it.
You aren’t being patriotic, and supporting the best candidate. You are supporting the face of bigotry in America.

You say you are a centrist. An independent.
It sounds like you were, at one point.
The Wulf we all know and love, is a hard core Trumper.
I was waiting to see how the righteous Christians, were going to react to Trump’s Bible.

You don’t get it, somehow.

ALL of your claimed beliefs, are threatened by Trump.
Yet you wouldn’t trade him for anything. He’s a means to furthering your actual beliefs.

I can easily deduce your actual beliefs, as you constantly work to illustrate your undying loyalty to Trump.
For someone to go to the great lengths you do, to try and prop Trump up, and shame the liberals, you clearly have an unwavering commitment to your one and only cause.
It is in that desperation, perhaps to try to convince yourself you aren’t lost, that your agenda is laid completely bare.

You may try, to your heart’s content, to seperate yourself from the most extreme assholes in conservative ranks. However. You have willfully tied yourself, to the cause of those people.
And you will have to bare the shame, that any American should feel, by supporting the destruction of our democracy.
It’s JUST that simple….

seawulf575's avatar

@MrGrimm888 Yes, law enforcement usually outnumbers the bad guys. But not the investigators. If they assign 100 investigations and there are only 23 bad guys, what does that mean? That is what was happening. You know this but you cannot bring yourself to admit to the wrong going on in a Dem administration.

MrGrimm888's avatar

^Wrong again.
Especially in cases as broad reaching as Trump’s, a small army is required to gather information on his massive criminal enterprise.
You don’t think your girl Fani Willis was sifting through thousands of emails, and talking to each person involved do you?

Investigations on that scale, have an army hunting every trail to it’s end.

When attempting to prosecute someone of his current stature, another army comprises the legal side.

EVERYTHING has to be perfect, for such a case.

I don’t see anything wrong, with holding such a criminal accountable for his actions.
As I’ve said, Trump has nothing to squeal about, if he’s such an angel.

“If they asign 100 investigations and there were only 23 bad guys, what does that mean?”

I don’t understand that question.
“Investigators,” maybe? My auto-correct sucks too.

If that’s what you’re asking, there isn’t a roster cap, like a sports team. They use as many people, as the person overseeing the investigations deems necessary, to achieve their goal.
Justice, does not have a finite budget.
Not in this context.
Going by your question, with 100 people investigating 23;
That’s about 4 agents, per person being investigated.
Trump alone, has 250 affiliates and subsidiaries that use the Trump name. It’s likely that ALL of those were given at least a glance.
It took them too long, but they absolutely have legal reasons/responsibilities, for prosecuting Trump.

All of these people of interest, have more people of interest, and things need to be confirmed.
Some things, need to be repeated, for legal reasons.

For investigating a person like Trump, there are likely MANY more, than just 100 people involved.

I get it. You’re terrified that the conservative dream, will go down with your God King.
I did not set up the current dynamics, where all of you’re hopes are hitched to a career criminal, and sexual predator.
It’s not my fault, he can’t be trusted to defend himself in some form of testimony, but you trust him ro run the country.

Why would I care about “the wrong going on in a Dem administration?”
You know, I think they’re ALL crooks.
As I’ve said before, they can take everyone in DC, and crucify them on the roads in and out. The world would be a better place.
I’m not tied, to ANY of these parasites.
Maybe instead of a Southern Border Wall, we should build one around DC. To keep the scum in, so they HAVE to at least pretend to work.

seawulf575's avatar

@MrGrimm888 You are using the political persecution as justification? Please. And the incident to which I was referring was not Trump. The Washington Times ran a report based on information from FBI Whistleblowers. Here’s what the WB’s had to say:

_“Current and former FBI agents tell The Washington Times that the perceived threat has become overblown under the administration. They say bureau analysts and top officials are pressuring FBI agents to create domestic terrorist cases and tag people as White supremacists to meet internal metrics.

“The demand for White supremacy” coming from FBI headquarters “vastly outstrips the supply of White supremacy,” said one agent, who spoke on the condition of anonymity. “We have more people assigned to investigate White supremacists than we can actually find.”_

The agent said those driving bureau policies “have already determined that White supremacy is a problem” and set agency wide policy to elevate racially motivated domestic extremism cases as priorities.

“We are sort of the lapdogs as the actual agents doing these sorts of investigations, trying to find a crime to fit otherwise First Amendment-protected activities,” he said. “If they have a Gadsden flag and they own guns and they are mean at school board meetings, that’s probably a domestic terrorist.””

Now I know you so desperately want to make Trump the bad guy, but please…seek help for this obsession.

MrGrimm888's avatar

^”said one agent.”
Classic spin attempt. Find somebody to legitimize a false claim.
That is the ship sinking hole, in that.
You can always find “one” person, who sides with an argument.
The rest of the FBI, did their jobs.
Again, you cling to extreme anomalies.

White supremacists, are domestic terrorists…

Just like when you swore (in the NAVY) to protect the country from threats both foreign and domestic, the FBI is sworn to investigate and if needed act to protect us from such people.
Timothy McVeigh, WAS a member of the KKK.
Allegedly, he left because they focused to much on race, and not enough on the 2nd amendment.
McVeigh, correct or not, was convinced that the US government was intentionally at war with it’s own citizens, as well as people like he was “forced” (his words) in Iraq.

THIS nationalist, patriotic, Branch Davididan (religious zealot,) anti-democracy, anti-goverment, US veteran, troubled, mentally ill man, detonated a bomb killing 168 men, women, and children, in Oklahoma City.

He was just out there, floating around, and at one point living in a Branch Davididan compound, selling bumper stickers.

Gosh. It’s almost as if, we learned to watch people “like that.”

As far as my “obsession,” check the news….....

JLeslie's avatar

A house about four blocks from me around a corner, so not visible from my house, has seven flags on their house and two big Christian crosses on the front of their house. Three of the flags are on a flagpole on his front lawn and the other four on his house. I don’t know what some of them mean. One is a US flag, one says Finish The Wall.

I can’t believe a neighbor hasn’t complained.

I would never buy a house next to that guy.

seawulf575's avatar

@JLeslie Maybe he doesn’t want someone like you moving in next to him?

Forever_Free's avatar

Rumor has it they are going to change the flag design so idiots can’t make the mistake of flying it upside-down.

Tropical_Willie's avatar

Actually it was his wife’s flag. . . we know who wears the pants in that house !

seawulf575's avatar

@MrGrimm888 “Said one agent”. Yep. That doesn’t mean he was the only one, they just quoted him. But let me point out another “one agent” that made a huge impact: Mark Felt. He was the lone whistleblower that took down Nixon. He was known as Deep Throat at the time.

I know you want to find some way to ignore things like that, but please understand how out there you sound. And tying tons of stuff doesn’t help.

MrGrimm888's avatar

^I don’t ignore anomalies. But I do not treat them, as the rule, rather the exception.

Mark Felt.
Why do we know that name?
Because he didn’t act, under the condition of anonymity.
Like your “one agent.”
Nixon resigned, rather than face the humiliation Trump revels in.

“Whistle blowers,” by definition can be anonymous, and only referenced in court proceedings.

You are quoting “one agent.”
Likely from an interview.
The opinion of “one agent,” does not define an agency.

Nixon was “taken down,” (as you say) because he was guilty of the crimes people were accusing him of…

You act, like it’s the FBI’s fault, that your God King is a criminal.
You can opine (nothing more) that the trial only occurred because of political reasons. Which is false.
But even if that were true, the matter was brought before the US Justice system.
The procession, conformed to all normal standards, and evidence was all legally acquired.
The result, of the “unnecessary investigation/witch hunt,” have been many people associated with Trump ending up in prison.
And of the felonies that he himself has been tried for, he has been found guilty on ALL 34 felonies.
Trump was also found guilty in 2 recent (civil) sexual assault and slander cases. As a result of purely his baffling stupidity, and baseless self confidence, those two cases, were brought and won, by the same woman…..

I. I am not tying anything together, except the obvious, that Trump, and those affiliated with him, are criminals.
A fact.
The only other people he worked with, he fired, or burnt bridges with.
Of Trump’s ex-whitehouse staff, and advisors, they all had very bad things to say about him.
Disturbing things.
Your boy, was flushing fucking evidence down the shitter only he could have used! And he was SO dense, he earned a reputation with the plumbers.

Bring on some more “what abouts.” Nothing will change the FACT, Trump is a convicted felon.
Convicted in the US, by US rules.
Even though, a blind moron can see Trump has been running from accountability, AND being protected in many cases, by the exact people who are supposed to balance a presidential figure.

You keep digging, for evidence to support your claim.

I don’t have to dig past the front page, to find evidence Trump is a criminal.

Demosthenes's avatar

My takeaway from all this (not just Alito, but also Ginny Thomas) is that Supreme Court Justices need to learn how to control their women.

;)

JLeslie's avatar

^^Lol. No wonder so many Trumpers want laws to control women.

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