General Question

Maya_01's avatar

Do you support Palestine or Israel and why?

Asked by Maya_01 (489points) October 18th, 2023
147 responses
“Great Question” (4points)

In this time of conflict and massacre, people are still supporting one party. Although it is a human right to voice our opinions and raise awareness who do you think is at fault?
As in who do you believe is the offender and the oppressor?

Note: having opinions is perfectly okay but at this conflicting time the news is extremely manipulating and therefore I wanted to see how many people actually know the correct news.

If you consider the news and media as absolutely correct then I recommend watching “Wag the Dog” and understanding government propaganda.

Topics: , , ,
Observing members: 0
Composing members: 0

Answers

Poseidon's avatar

This is an extremely difficult question to answer.

In 1947 the Jewish community settled in and partitioned a part of Palestine without even any negotiations or consultations with the Palestinians. In May 1948 Israel was officially declared an Independent State. Obviously Palestine were extremely aggrieved at this and there has be friction and conflict with Israel for the last 76 years culminating in the latest attack on Israel by the Terrorist Organisation Hamas.

The reason I believe that the question is difficult to answer is because Palestine land was simply grabbed without a by your leave so I can’t blame Palestine but it is not actually Palestine who attacked Israel although the Hamas is based in that country.

I would have thought that in nearly 80 years some sort of agreement could have been reached between the 2 countries.

All we can pray for is that it does not escalate into an all out war involving other Middle Eastern countries. We know that Jihad is putting their four pennyworth in.

I can categorically state that I am on Israel’s side with regard to the latest violence.

Hamas is an evil Terrorist Organisation and care nothing for the lives of innocent civilians, women, children and the elderly.

If Israel can put and end to Hamas I am on their side.

However, they appear to be showing the world that they are not much better than Hamas with their incessant attacks on innocent Palestinians and denying extremely urgent aid and food. They are also preventing oil being delivered which are stopping hospitals etc, from saving the lives of those being attacked by the Israelis.

What Israel is doing in Palestine under the guise of destroying Hamas is putting me in mind of Putin and his incessant attacking of Ukraine.

hat's avatar

Palestine, because I’m not a sociopath.

But it doesn’t matter. My taxes pay for this continued oppression and murder, and there is nothing that can be done to stop it.

Blackwater_Park's avatar

I unabashedly support Israel. I also support the innocent Palestinians caught in the middle. This is a struggle of ideology and history that won’t be resolved but Hamas must be dealt with right now. This time, what they have done is beyond too far. They machine-gunned down innocent civilians. When they hid in shelters by the dozen, they threw grenades into them. Then they took hostages. They did other things that are unnamable. They are barbarians and have to be stopped. They also timed this attack, they’ll bomb their own people if they can blame it on Israel. They did this right as they were losing influence in the arab world. Lets be real, this attack was about stirring up the hornets nest as a last-ditch effort to survive. It won’t work and nobody sane is coming to the aide of Hamas. They are a cancer to be cut out.

seawulf575's avatar

Neither, really. Too far removed from me.

In the current aggression, I fully blame Hamas. In fact, Palestine has a long history of supporting terrorist organizations. And it seems there are an inordinately large number of terrorist organizations that attack Israel.

That isn’t to say that Israel hasn’t caused part of the problem in the area. But the conflicts in this part of the world go back thousands of years.

So my view is that I don’t support terrorists and especially those that target women and children especially. Beyond that, I’m all for staying out of the entire area.

gorillapaws's avatar

I support the Israeli and Palestinian people. I think the leaders are all war criminals and ought to be brought up on charges in the Hague.

ragingloli's avatar

It takes two to tango.
They are both at fault, and I am not going to side with either.

KNOWITALL's avatar

Much the same as @gorillapaws and @seawulf575. If I were forced to pick a side it’s Israel, as they have been persecuted and intentionally purged throughout history.

smudges's avatar

What I find interesting about this question is that the OP claims to “know the answer” and “wanted to see how many people actually know the correct news.” Then goes on to tell us where to get the real news. I bow to your youthful intelligence.~

zenvelo's avatar

I am on the side of children. I want Israeli children to sleep at night knowing Palestinian children are safe. I want Palestinian children to go to sleep at night knowing Israeli children are safe.

(Not written by me, but I don’t know who the original author is to credit.)

How anyone can say that beheading children is justified is incomprehensible to me.

mazingerz88's avatar

I support Israelis and Palestinians who are tired of all this bloodshed and would rather negotiate in order to have lasting peace. Those Israelis and Palestinians whose aim is total annihilation of the other should be ignored and not get any support at all.

Kropotkin's avatar

Neither really. I’ve generally a lot more sympathy for Palestinians, since they’re the ones who have been subjected to intolerable conditions for generations, and deserve emancipation.

However, I am an anti-nationalist. Palestinian nationalism is as much of an abomination and shame to its people as Israeli nationalism, and I think is ultimately a destructive and counter-productive ideology—even if entirely understandable and predictable given the historical circumstances.

Forever_Free's avatar

My support or non-support is really meaningless on this topic.
If I had an ability to help, I would.

canidmajor's avatar

No, @Maya_01, you don’t “‘know the answer”, and how wildly arrogant of you to assume you do.
First of all, you simply can’t know the answer to the question as asked.
Secondly, all of this is just way too complex for there to be anything like a simple “right” or “wrong” answer, considering the way you worded it.

You have a very firm opinion, perhaps, based on information you have gathered.

And like some above, I support the masses of innocents that are being hurt and/or slaughtered by the two (supposedly) governing bodies that are perpetrating such atrocities on so many civilians.

JLeslie's avatar

Israel, but that is not a statement against the Palestinians as a whole, it is Hamas that is the main problem.

I doubt you will be able to see this video, but I hope you can. An Arab Muslim defending Israel and criticizing Hamas and pointing out that the countries aligned with Iran and that have terrorist groups in power or lots of power in a country aren’t doing well, while countries at peace with Israel the people have better lives. I hope you can see it. Depends on the settings. https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=pfbid02KSqoW1H5kP1AwRT4sE8H9ZujozGEFqAcT3wTntcyEaoceH91E6P7boSmRkT3fDe5l&id=100003895342306&mibextid=v7YzmG If you can’t see it maybe I can have my friend set it to public.

The Palestinians refused reasonable peace agreements previously, they keep the killings happening. Peace is what would make everyone safer. Hamas wants Israel completely gone.

Part of me can’t stand to see the carnage and wants the Jews to flatten most everything behind them, make a country in rural Alabama or pick a state, and save the lives of the Jewish people. Let’s see what happens in what is now Israel. I’m not really serious, but I think it sometimes.

Why won’t other Arab countries let the Palestinians in? They don’t want Hamas in their countries either. It takes time to vet people.

Jewish people have been on those lands for thousands of years. More recently, In the 1920’s and 30’s many Jews left or were forced out because of intense antisemitism in the region. No one can say that land was settled by Muslims first, we can say both Jewish people and Muslims have lived there for over a thousand years. We can’t says Jews “occupy” a land that they have lived on forever and were driven out.

Jewish people don’t convert others, just that is an indication of our culture, we are fine with other religions and cultures in the world, we just ask that people are good. We don’t encourage every Jewish couple having ten babies to help our power or presence.

Hamas did their attack when a treaty was being discussed between Saudi Arabia and Israel. That’s no accident in my opinion.

Blackwater_Park's avatar

@JLeslie “Hamas did their attack when a treaty was being discussed between Saudi Arabia and Israel. That’s no accident in my opinion.”

Exactly this.

JLeslie's avatar

^^A part of me wonders if Israel should have put troupes at the borders, asked America to bring war ships near Gaza and Lebanon, and continued negotiations with Saudi. But, what I don’t know is if Israel needs to flatten buildings to try to get the hostages back.

Mostly, I fully support slamming Gaza to protect Israel, to do whatever is necessary to dismantle Hamas. When Hamas loses power the Palestinian people will be safer.

Lightlyseared's avatar

There’s a significant amount of evidence that Hamas are heavily or wholly supported by Iran. So there’s a good chance that any action carried out by Hamas is to benefit Iran as opposed to Palestine. I suspect that the Palestinian people have tolerated them and their presence on the mistaken belief that the enemy of your enemy is your friend.

JLeslie's avatar

@Lightlyseared So, what exactly is Iran’s end goal? To get rid of Israel? I don’t know much about Iran or the history, and all of the Iranian people I know (quite a few at that) left Iran many years ago. I will never understand why it matters so much to some Persians and Arabs to get rid of all of the Jews or to eliminate Israel. Those countries use the Palestinians like pawns, I have said it before. They have those poor people literally kill themselves for the cause. I don’t think Iran stopped the Palestinians leaders from taking a treaty deal, or was Iran in the mix even in the time of Arafat?

tinyfaery's avatar

Let’s see…

On one side you have a group of people that were moved off of the land they had occupied for centuries, who have endured more and more encroachment into their reservation (apartheid state?), have been the victims of countless war crimes, and have had entire families and bloodlines wiped away in an instant.

On the other side you have a group of people who Europe did not want to take back into the countries that those families had lived in for centuries (fulfilling Hitler’s wishes and keeping most of what was taken from millions of Jews) and were told they could just take some land that belonged to others. And the justification is… religious bullshit.

I am not surprised that the propaganda machine works great on another country with the same history of imperialism, colonization, and abhorrent treatment of indigenous people.

The more I talk to my Jewish friends and acquaintances, the more I realize the true difference between Zionism and Judaism. Zionism is inherently racist.

I am watching the radicalization of a new generation of Muslims and leftists in real time. And ya’ll wonder why Muslims want us all dead.

LifeQuestioner's avatar

Other people probably have more knowledge of the situation but from what little bit I’ve heard on the news and from my own thoughts, I see innocent children on both sides being targeted, if not on purpose, then in the crossfire. And I don’t ever think there’s an excuse for that, so although Hamas may have attacked Israel first, and I won’t deign to judge on that since I don’t know enough about the history, I think we need to be careful not to blame all Palestinians for their actions. And as much as I feel that Russia needs to get out of Ukraine, it would be equally wrong the judge all Russians by the actions of Putin and certain others. I don’t know what the answer is, which is probably why it’s good that I don’t work in government. I just know this is a horrible situation and that innocent children are being caught in the crossfire, which upsets me.

Lightlyseared's avatar

@JLeslie i strongly suspect that at this point Iran just likes to fuck with the West.

Caravanfan's avatar

The question is a trap, and I despair at the amount of hatred and racism, even on this thread.
https://www.ajc.org/translatehate/Zionism-is-racism

kritiper's avatar

I support all non-violent people.

gorillapaws's avatar

@Caravanfan What’s the term to describe people who believe that Israel should annex/settle all of the West Bank and Gaza in violation of international law and murder/expel the Palestinians who would prefer not to be a refugee in a different country? I thought “Zionism” was that word, but maybe there’s a better one?

Caravanfan's avatar

@gorillapaws That question is another trap and you know it—and you know me better than that. I’ll answer honest, non-loaded, non venomous questions. Try again.

Caravanfan's avatar

Oh, and I’ll throw you a bone. I am a Zionist. I am not in favor of annexation and settling the West Bank and murdering and expelling Palestinians. But according to Hat, tinyfairy, you and others because I am a Zionist I am automatically in favor of murder, apartheid, and genocide. You hate all that, therefore you hate me and and all who think like me. Since most of us are Jewish… I’ll let you finish the thought.

gorillapaws's avatar

@gorillapaws I thought “Zionism” meant support for the “Greater Israel” idea, where the borders are much larger than the original Israel created by the UN as defined by a Biblical description of the promise land. I don’t want to use language that’s antisemitic or use the term incorrectly. If I’ve misunderstood the term, then I’m happy to be corrected. I certainly will take your word for it. I certainly don’t hate you.

I still think my question stands though, what is the correct term to refer to people who think the endgame in Israel is ethnically cleansing the Palestinian population either through forced eviction or violence? I know there are people who hold this belief (including Netanyahu and Islamophobes in the US).

Caravanfan's avatar

When you realize that the question you asked is offensive to me and other Jews and modern liberal Zionists then we can have a conversation. Until that we’re done. It’s like asking, “When did you stop beating your wife”.

But honestly, I’m not sure I’m ready to write an essay on the history of the Jews and modern Zionist theory in a hostile online environment.

gorillapaws's avatar

@Caravanfan I’m approaching this in good faith. If you’re not in the mood to do a big thing, that’s fine. I was trying to understand if there was a term that captures the ideology we both disagree with?

Response moderated (Unhelpful)
JLeslie's avatar

Here’s a video of the history and perspective of many Israelis.

https://youtu.be/XrYHTR9Uars?si=NCIUT-PTYY6r90fM

@tinyfaery Hundreds of thousands of Jews came from other parts of West Asia, they weren’t all from Europe.

Can my FIL go back to the land of Israel? His parents had to leave in the 1930’s to escape the antisemitism. His older siblings were born in what is now Israel, he was born in Mexico. His first language were Hebrew and Arabic in his parents’ home. Before Tel Aviv and Haifa my FIL heard parts of the family were in Syria possibly or Lebanon, he’s not sure how far back though.

The Yemenite Jews were driven out of the Middle East, the Mizrahi Jews. Where should the Jews go? Europe? Egypt? Iran? Lebanon? Syria? The Americas?

Not to mention the Arab world and Iran is hostile to LGBT. Palestinian Trans go to Israel for safety and treatment. In my video he touches on some of that, but I’m aware of it even before the video. I’m sure it doesn’t surprise you that Muslim countries have laws about being gay. Also, what about women? Women don’t have close to equal rights in Muslim countries. Maybe you feel like it is not for us to judge their culture. Ok.

People who hate Jews should be happy to have Israel so the Jews stay in one little spot. No, instead they just want to kill us. The Jews take care of the holy lands; do you think the Arab Muslims will do that for Christianity and Jews? A bunch of ME countries don’t even let Israelis step foot in their countries.

Pandora's avatar

Neither. The wars in the Middle East have been going on for hundreds of years. It’s over religion and power and money. It doesn’t matter who is ever in charge because they all become horrible leaders because they seek power and use religion to dominate others. They have been at war with each other for so long that it doesn’t matter. They are intent on killing each other. So what does it matter who I support or don’t support? They don’t know how to live in peace and share land and not want to oppress each other. They say they believe in a God and then proceed to act as if they have the right of one to kill each other. The innocent get caught in the crossfire of horrific people. I believe there are innocent people on both sides and that is who I support. They are the ones I pray for. Not the animals posing as humans who only contribute to human suffering.

JLeslie's avatar

I was told my link doesn’t work. Here it is again. https://youtu.be/R-x-cRReI1A?si=qWP5c4SDfl63r8Tz

mazingerz88's avatar

^^A jellie posted above that Jews are “simply land grabbers”, ignoring the reasons and justifications you have been posting. Seems none of them matters.

The British gave Jews the land if I’m not mistaken, even if it seems it’s not for the British to give. It also seems for anti-semites and probably also for those who don’t have skin on the game, that land grabbing is and will always be impossibly justifiable.

I have a feeling this is what the likes of Netanyahu thinks. No matter what Israelis do, people who wish to see Israel wiped out from that land will never accept nor forgive that “land grab”.

I don’t know how peace-loving two-state solution supporting Israelis could change the hearts and minds of most Muslims in the region who see this situation in such a way. I hope Israelis could.

JLeslie's avatar

@mazingerz88 I think a lot of people don’t know the history, the geography, or how small the Jewish population is in Israel and around the world.

I heard the kibbutz that was attacked was a kibbutz that taught Arabic to children and wanted peace. Probably Arabic is offered in most schools, but anyway that was pointed out on some show.

According to Wikipedia it was established in 1946, so that means those Jewish people had paid for the land and were there before the UN decision. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Be'eri

At this point, I seriously doubt there will ever be a two-state solution.

mazingerz88's avatar

^^Looks like Netanyahu and his Israeli supporters already knew a two-state solution is not going to work in the long run?

They are gambling.

Whatever their long game is in order for Israel to survive in peace with no threat of attack on an existential level…I have no idea.

snowberry's avatar

@JLeslie Here’s another video by the same guy about why he doesn’t want to free Palestine. I didn’t know ko-fi existed. It’s worth exploring.
https://ko-fi.com/travelingisrael/posts

Response moderated
Response moderated (Personal Attack)
Response moderated (Personal Attack)
raum's avatar

Not my own words. Though it captures how I feel about all of this.

“Sometimes it feels like this place is a gladiator arena for the West’s entertainment. Two minority groups, unwanted elsewhere, armed and fueled by foreign interest, killing each other for survival while onlookers wave the flag of their preferred team, giving their two cents like sports commentators.”

MrGrimm888's avatar

Neither.
20 years ago, I saw textbooks from both Israeli and Palestinian schools that teach their children to dislike each other.

This is yet ANOTHER example of why religion is such an anchor on humanity. I don’t know which deity is the right one (obviously neither,) or how much blood it takes to satiate it, but as long as people allow themselves to be controlled by religion there will NEVER be peace.

Ideologies are far more difficult to destroy than human life. If Israel could press a magic button that killed every single member of Hamas, there would just be more people wanting to destroy Israel.

The difference between the two is that Israel apparently has the unwavering support from the US, and wields some of the most effective modern military technology.

At this point, I am pro America. This conflict/war, is a cluster fuck. The US gives Israel better treatment than almost any other nation. We have given them hundreds of billions of dollars, AND discounted military equipment. With that support, they should be well prepared to handle their own problems…

This is NOTHING like the Ukraine War. THAT needs our utmost attention.
The international community should be amicably working on an end to further violence. A. Blinkin proclaiming that he was in Israel “as a Jewish person,” when he was supposed to be representing a country and not an imaginary “god,” was about the least sensible way of trying to deescalate the situation in our first response…

Regardless of who committed the most recent atrocities, Israel would be wise to show more restraint on Gaza. Is there really any question that the Palestinians who survive the Israeli war, will become further radicalized, and even more hateful of Israel?
Short of getting the hostages out, is revenge worth the entire region descending into war?

Best case scenario if IDF forces invade Gaza, a long bloody urban war. Booby traps, snipers, suicide bombers, rockets, and a whole generation of millions of people who will suffer.

Israel should offer cease fire/no invasion, for the hostages.

October 7th, Israel realized it had underestimated their enemies. Will they learn, or just perpetuate this idiocy?
The attack on Israel was obviously abhorrent. However. Cooler heads must prevail.

VERY dangerous situation….

JLeslie's avatar

@MrGrimm888 I might be persuaded to go along with your deal to cease fire for all of the hostages. One problem will be some of the hostages are likely dead.

I think also THIS TIME has to be the last time, this its it! Gaza needs to no longer be Israel’s “responsibility.” The Palestinians need to take care of themselves and other Arab states can help them and in my opinion they need to stop sending rockets into Israel. The Palestinians are “lucky” Israel has the iron dome, because it allows the world to forget that Hamas fires on Israel constantly.

I’m not sure what is going to happen to all of the Palestinians who cross into Israel every day to work, hopefully that can continue.

MrGrimm888's avatar

^If Israel were realistically concerned about the hostages, they wouldn’t have bombed Gaza with such vigor.

The sad strategic truth is that the hostages are Hamas’ biggest source of leverage.
Rescuing even a small amount of hostages by force, presuming Israeli claims they are likely in underground tunnels is correct, will be nearly impossible without losing some/all hostages and a bunch of Israel or other special forces.

Hamas claims confirmation of each captive, but we really don’t know the facts. Reports I have heard indicate that a number of hostages are missing limbs, and/wounded.
As unthinkable as it is, it may be wise to write off the hostages as a cost of their relationship with their neighbors/fellow humans…

In my mind, if the hostages are priority, there is a better chance of getting them back through diplomacy and leverage gained by canceling the ground invasion. Even if it takes years, as things sometimes do…

Israel has the right to defend themselves. However. If actions Israel deems “defensive” start world war, I don’t support that…

There is no possible “proportionate” response.

Is it lost on so many, that Hamas’ likely motivation for this is to get the Arab world to unite against Israel? Yemen has already joined. Israel has had to hit airstrips in Syria. Hezbolah has exchanged with Israel from the West Bank. Lebanon is right there. Iran is funding this. Qatar funds the region’s CNN. Egypt doesn’t want involvement, and they have the only route of escape for Gazans…
The ME is seething with resentment, irreconcilable religious differences, and is home to several of the west’s most difficult trade partners and failed attempts at forced democracy. There are few nations in that region that wouldn’t prefer to see the US stay out, and Israel burn…

2,000 US troops on the ground in Israel are obviously going to be the highest value targets, and the US will respond to the inevitable attacks against us, making the situation even worse…

I’m sorry Israeli fans. They are in a scenario with no right answer. The actions they have already committed, have many nations accusing Israel of war crimes…

The Ottomans could be blamed. Or any of a few colonial European countries, for the ignorantly drawn map of the region for the constant chaos.
But that is the shape of things.

Theists apparently just don’t see how disturbing it is, to watch people kill/die for fairy tale characters… and how mentioning that VERY relevant fact, only makes people more angry… Even Biden will be considering his religious beliefs, when making decisions about this problem created by religion… It’s pathetic…

JLeslie's avatar

^^I think Israel accepts that many or most hostages will die. I think for Israel the mission to dismantle Hamas is more important than the Israeli lives that will be lost, because of the future lives that will be lost if they don’t do it.

I’ve seen parents and relatives taking some solace that their family member was killed in the attack and not taken hostage, because they fear the torture Hamas might inflict on hostages would be worse than death. Look at what they did!

Hamas maybe will treat the hostages reasonably to keep them as leverage, but they also can brutalize them and still use them as leverage.

gorillapaws's avatar

Speaking of hostages, it’s also relevant that Israel is currently holding over 1,100 Palestinians in jail without trial (some are children). This was prior to the attack. It’s not the same as holding a gun to their heads and using them as human shields like Hamas, but it’s functionally identical to kidnapping. How should Israel be held responsible for that? Or do they get a pass?

snowberry's avatar

@gorillapaws Considering that the Palestinians teach their kids to hate Israel and to want to kill Israelis from infancy, how old are these children who are in jail? Are they toddlers? Elementary age? Teens? What?

JLeslie's avatar

@gorillapaws Why are they being held by Israel? No child should be held, unless of course they were part of trying to harm Israelis. Don’t get me wrong, I understand a 14 year old can’t really be responsible for decisions they make, but if they are brainwashed soldiers it is more complicated.

Do you think Israel would ever torture children they are holding? Besides the obvious mental torture of being separated from their parents. What about Hamas? Their soldiers just stabbed and beheaded children en masse as part of their plan.

If it is children Hamas made into soldiers and suicide bombers the children are safer in Israel.

If they are holding innocent very young children, no Israel does not get a pass for that.

gorillapaws's avatar

@snowberry

Here’s some data

@JLeslie “Why are they being held by Israel?”

We don’t know because Israel hasn’t presented evidence or pressed charges. They’re in legal limbo.

@JLeslie “Do you think Israel would ever torture children they are holding?”

Save The Children, an NGO, found many concerning things in their report earlier this year including:

• During arrest, 42% of children suffered injuries, including gunshot wounds and broken bones. A range of other injuries were reported, from shoulder dislocation, to bruising, to suffocation.

• The majority of children experienced appalling levels of physical and emotional abuse, including being beaten (86%), being threatened with harm (70%), and hit with sticks or guns (60%).

• Some children reported sexual violence and abuse, including being hit or touched on the genitals and 69% reported being strip searched during interrogation.

• 60% of children experienced solitary confinement with the length of time varying from one day to as long as 48 days.

• Children were denied adequate food or healthcare: 70% said they suffered from hunger and 68% said they didn’t receive any healthcare.

• 58% of children were denied visits or communication with their family while detained.

• Children reported high levels of emotional distress during the transfer to court or between detention centres, on a packed transfer bus, with their hands and feet cuffed, and no access to food, water or a toilet for 12 hours or more. Some described being put in small boxes or cages.

Is that torture? Not sure. It’s certainly not a good look, and likely will lead to at least some of those kids (and possibly their relatives) wanting revenge, wouldn’t you think?

@JLeslie “What about Hamas?”

Hamas are terrorists. Is it reasonable that we can hold Israel to a higher standard than terrorists?

JLeslie's avatar

@gorillapaws I did not download that full article. Some of what you cite here is worrisome. It wouldn’t surprise me if children get hurt when they are being arrested or if they put up a struggle in other situations, and it might not be something to criticize Israel about, but I do feel they should overall be treated decently, and if some of the Israeli soldiers are using excessive force or not providing adequate basic conditions for the children I do think that is unacceptable.

I also think how children are treated during an initial arrest might be very different than over time. Initially, children are likely terrified, they might struggle when being taken by Israeli soldiers, but eventually, if treated decently, they hopefully would be more cooperative. I think it behooves Israel to treat the children well, and it is the right thing to do morally anyway.

It would not surprise me to hear reports of Israeli soldiers sometimes mistreating children or adults who have been taken into custody, just like it would not surprise when it happens in the US, or any other nations, unfortunately these things happen, but we hope at a minimum, and it should be questioned. I also don’t know how sensitive the people taking these statistics are. Something they deem abusive, I might not.

Your report seems to ignore that all too many children are born and groomed to be terrorists in Gaza. If they are in a circumstance where they get apprehended, then even more likely they are working on behalf of Hamas. It is no surprise that mostly boys are arrested, they are primarily the ones who commit the terrorist acts. Plus, Hamas needs to keep their women pushing out babies. I once again bring up the story of the Palestinian woman getting medical treatment for her baby in Israel saying she would be ok with him growing up and killing himself to kill Israelis.

Don’t make it like all of these children are innocent, they are not. If an American 14 year old in America attacks someone else causing great harm, they often wind up in juvenile jail or in psychiatric treatment, they are not sent back to their family.

MrGrimm888's avatar

^I can confirm seeing multiple interviews with some Palestinian women, where they speak of themselves as breeders and how they can feed the war effort by making lots of babies. I would think that some of the interviews I saw, hopefully were just radicalized zealots and did not represent the feelings of most.
But. It was a sobering reminder of how different our cultures are.

BOTH sides play roles in why they are each other’s nemesis. This situation was, in my opinion, inevitable.

As I have opined, the problem with the Israeli/Palestinian relationship will only further sour if the IDF goes into Gaza on foot.

Today’s young Palestinian civilian victim of war, is tomorrow’s Terrorist…

This whole thing is a cycle. If the cycle of violence gets broken, peace would have a real chance.
This is a moment where Israel can potentially be rewarded for being merciful. But they seem more like they can’t wait to go take out their anger at the terrorist attack on the Palestinians…
Netanyahu has ALWAYS wanted an excuse to do something like this. In his mind, and in many other’s, this was his opportunity to use the full power of the American backed IDF to not only punish and destroy one of their worst enemies AND show the rest of the ME that attacking Israel isn’t wise. Conspiracy theorists will speak of other motives for Netanyahu’s reactions to the Oct 7th attack.

History is no longer necessarily written by the winners. Current technology will ensure that as Israel reacts militarily, the world will be watching. A decade long occupation of Gaza filled with all the fog of war will absolutely drain Israel, and the US.
We’ve seen this before, right?..

If complete, and sustained destruction of Hamas was possible, I would be all for it. But you can’t kill an ideology…

gorillapaws's avatar

@MrGrimm888 “This is a moment where Israel can potentially be rewarded for being merciful.”

At this point I think Israel has crossed the line from ethnic cleansing to full-on genocide, they’ve killed over 5 thousand people in Gaza, mostly non-combatants. If this were being done to Jewish people the world would be (rightly) outraged. And we’re helping them do it. This is inhuman and grotesque and I think Hamas, Netanyahu and his pals along with Biden and the rest of the bastards who are aiding in this crime against humanity ought to be held accountable.

JLeslie's avatar

It is not genocide, but I understand why people are throwing that word around. Israel is telling people to move out of the places that are the least safe. Probably 50,000 would be dead by now if they had not done that. If Ukraine kills 5,000 Russians during the war will you call that Genocide? Hamas viciously attacked Israel. Constantly attacks Israel. Although, I do admit I can’t stand the destruction and killing anymore. I do hope something can be done to solve it in a more diplomatic way, but we have been hoping for that for 75 years.

Hamas is releasing hostages I think in hopes to slow down the Israeli aggression and hope they can get the US to increase pressure on Israel to calm down. I assume that is why they let Americans out first. I think they also use it as a tactic to drag things out so people are forgetting the details of the massacre on Oct 7th. The Israelis and Jews are not going to forget, but the rest of the world seems to be.

I saw someone interviewed last night, I don’t know his name, but he is an author or journalist and he said Jewish people are traumatized by what happened. He spoke to the difficulty grappling with being Jewish, being liberal and progressive, and caring about the Palestinian people, and feeling attacked ourselves. It is RE-traumatized to be accurate. What you don’t seem to understand is both Jewish people and the Palestinians have generations of trauma. He also spoke about college campuses becoming less safe and the current liberal narrative that is creating antisemitism and the lack of knowledge of the full history of the region. People seem to think Jewish people don’t care about the Palestinian people, but the majority of the Jewish people around the world are liberals and progressives, and definitely here in the US we are (about 70% of Jews are registered Democrats) and we fight for minorities all of the time and don’t prejudge and are not racist.

It is very upsetting and offensive when Jewish people are accused of not caring about Palestinians when in fact they do. I am not saying all Jewish people feel the same, of course not, but plenty of Jewish people do care and have argued for backing out of the settlements and send money to help Palestinians get medical care, and have been speaking out against leaders like Bibi, and do so many things to try to make the situation better through non-violent means. Jewish people feel we need to be afraid for our lives or the lives of our children. When @caravanfan spoke about his daughter at school, it didn’t feel to me you understood the DANGER we worry about for her, well I should not speak for caravan, but I am assuming. His daughter is my daughter in that instant or could have been me 35 years ago. For us it is not just campus conversation and civil discourse. We worry about it for Arab Americans too. This is why it is hard to have a conversation with us, LOL, because our anxiety is very high. Fight or flight.

Is there a large chorus of Palestinians in Gaza saying they will stop supporting Hamas if Israel backs out of the settlements? Or, they just complain about the Israeli settlements? Do the people in Gaza even feel they can refuse Hamas? Do they worry for their own lives if they speak out against Hamas? Does a large percentage of them feel they have no choice and just try to keep their head’s down? I don’t really know the answer to any of these questions straight from the mouths of the people of Gaza.

gorillapaws's avatar

@JLeslie How did the US get Bin Laden? Did we bomb the ever-loving-shit out of Pakistan and murder thousands of fucking children?

You don’t level neighborhoods to kill terrorists, unless the civilian casualties are intentional. Warning them to “flee south” isn’t an attempt to minimize civilian casualties, it’s a thinly veiled attempt at “political cover” to make believe that they care about civilian casualties, and possibly a tactic to further illegally annex territory. It isn’t mercy. You don’t deprive a population of 2 million people food, water, electricity to kill a few hundred? thousand? enemy combatants. That’s called collective punishment—a grotesque violation of the rules of war. People are drinking sea water and IV bags for fuck’s sake.

The crimes committed by Hamas on Oct. 7th were vile and abhorrent. So far Israel has managed to kill something like 5x as many Palestinians (and it’s quickly rising). So either Israel is 5x as vile as the fucking terrorists—who we all hate or Palestinians are worth less than 1/5 of an Israeli. Slaves in the US at least counted as 3/5ths of a person. Maybe you can help me understand the math.

As for genocide: “Genocide is the intentional destruction of a people in whole or in part” If this shit were happening to Jewish people, we would all have no problem calling it out for what it is.

JLeslie's avatar

@gorillapaws Israel would be fine saving every Palestinian’s life who isn’t Hamas or part of Oct 7 if they could do it. Hamas is thrilled Jews were tortured and killed. It is part of their savagery.

I’ve been saying this multiple times, not just to you, and then finally an hour ago I saw an interview with a journalist who was saying similar. He even cited Rwanda as I have been. People keep comparing to the Holocaust, but I think most people don’t think of the same type of savagery during the Holocaust even though it did happen. They think of mass murders. They think gassing people and shooting people. Most people are unaware of the rapes, setting people on fire in a pit, experimenting, tying the legs of together of women in labor, the list is long. Rwanda people remember better the butchering that happened.

The journalist was Eliot Cohen, he writes for The Atlantic, I didn’t know of him before. I don’t have a subscription, but maybe you do. It’s the article on Barbarism. https://www.theatlantic.com/author/eliot-a-cohen/

gorillapaws's avatar

@JLeslie “Israel would be fine saving every Palestinian’s life who isn’t Hamas or part of Oct 7 if they could do it.”

If you sincerely believe this then you’re completely brainwashed by Israeli propaganda.

Blackwater_Park's avatar

Well, Israel isn’t exactly intentionally trapping civilians, mowing them down with machine guns, throwing grenades into crowds of them, or doing other inhuman, unspeakable things to them. But I suppose that’s just the propaganda talking. I get that the Israeli response is a little heavy-handed, but who kicked this hornet’s nest?

JLeslie's avatar

@gorillapaws I am not saying the Israeli government or even the people are crying a tear every time a civilian Palestinian dies in the bombings, the government is obviously ok with the casualties to the extent that the mission is more important to them. The people vary, I think most wish Palestinians weren’t being harmed and killed, some people are probably indifferent, especially after what just took place.

I do know Jews who became more towards indifferent immediately following Oct 7. These same people before really cared about helping the Palestinians and wanted a two state solution and had empathy for their POV and their frustration. Now, their initial reaction of anger and sadness and pain and not giving a shit anymore if Palestinians die might be fading back to not wanting to so much harm and death, because they are empathetic people at the core.

When you see a Palestinian in Gaza or Hamas send out warnings hours and days before to try to save Israeli civilians before they send rockets to kill soldiers or destroy buildings in Israel you let me know.

At least one of the kibbutz attacked has been there since 1946, before the UN decision, I didn’t look up all of them. So tired of the narrative that the Jews weren’t in the region before the decision.

We have to hope diplomacy can calm things down. It would be nice if some Gazans would help the Israelis. Give them money, a place to live in another country, whatever. I find it baffling that Israel doesn’t have anyone undercover.

JLeslie's avatar

@Caravanfan Thank you for that link. I watch his show sometimes, but hadn’t seen that interview.

My sister has been saying for a long time that Iran along with Hamas and Hezbollah is basically wanting a Muslim takeover of the ME and the world.

She wrote recently “Israel
is one of the only countries that isn’t into imperialism — to be an imperialist, by definition, means you have a mother country that overtakes another country. The only country Jews want is their homeland. They don’t want to prostelytize, and they don’t want more than one country.”

I wonder how the man being interviewed made his way to the US. I wonder if he has information that can even help Israel at this point.

I hope other jellies on this thread watch your video.

JLeslie's avatar

@gorillapaws I hope you watch @Caravanfan’s most recent link.

Caravanfan's avatar

To be clear, I am not advocating anything. Israel is doing right now. I was just answering the question.

gorillapaws's avatar

@JLeslie “My sister has been saying for a long time that Iran along with Hamas and Hezbollah is basically wanting a Muslim takeover of the ME and the world.”

When Hezbollah, Iran, Hamas, or any other ME country your sister’s afraid of shoots down just ONE stealth F-35 jet of the 50–75 Israel has or one of the 3 submarines they operate, then I’ll begin to entertain your sister’s idea that there’s any kind of meaningful threat to Israel’s security. The only credible existential threat to Israel is from nuclear weapons—and Israel’s attempted genocide in Gaza is making that threat more likely, not less.

@JLeslie ”...to be an imperialist, by definition, means you have a mother country that overtakes another country.”

I’m not sure if your sister has ever heard of Gaza, a place known as the West Bank, and East Jerusalem? They’re NOT recognized as part of Israel by the rest of the world. I think that’s what people are talking about when they say “imperialism.”

I did watch the video @Caravanfan linked. I’m willing to watch anything (extreme uncensored graphic violence excepted).

@JLeslie “So tired of the narrative that the Jews weren’t in the region before the decision.”

Who’s saying that? I’m saying the UN created the nation of Israel with certain borders. Israel is expanding on those borders illegally. I know there were many Jews in the area for generations. They faced antisemitism, without question (historically the Jewish people have unfortunately been the victims of antisemitism all over) and there would have been more of them in the area but for antisemitism in the area. It has always been a volatile region at the nexus between Africa, Asia, the Mediterranean and the Indian Ocean. I may not agree with the process for the creation of Israel with widespread displacement and violence, but given the historical realities of the time, I actually agree that having a nation state for Jewish people to come together and prosper is a good thing.

JLeslie's avatar

@gorillapaws I didn’t mean you have been saying Jews weren’t there already, I should have clarified that, I understand why you might have thought I meant you.

As far as Muslims taking over the region, they basically are the region. They helped drive Christians out of Lebanon years ago. It’s more complicated than just blaming Muslims pushing out Christians, I don’t know the history very well. Lebanon has had a lot of upheaval. The country is still 35% Christian, but that is a drastic decline in the last 50 years. Muslim rule is still giving Christians a very hard time in some other parts of the Middle East, Christians feel unsafe.

Sure, Israel has nuclear weapons and a well trained military, but the Muslims have HUGE numbers. Luckily, not all of them are looking to annihilate all Jews and Israel. It’s like New Jersey against the rest of America in land mass and population.

I wish occupation could work. It did work with Japan and Germany, we occupied and helped to rebuild, but this situation is very different. A friend of mine said the way to solve the conflict is for the Palestinians to surrender to Israel. He can’t see another way and in his opinion looking at history, the countries that have surrendered to the US and allied forces in recent history are the ones that have wound up the most prosperous and free and are independent. That’s his creative answer anyway.

MrGrimm888's avatar

^With all due respect, I take issue with this “resistance is futile” theory. I can appreciate that trying to minimize further violence and death is the motivation. However.
It’s important to keep in mind that what “we” think is “right,” may be very different from what others believe is “right.”

Just because the easiest way to survive something is to roll over, doesn’t mean that is a viable option to many. Other countries typically do NOT want western democracies, and are offended at basic concepts of western culture.
It is this “stop resisting and you’ll be fine” thinking, that has shaped the ME through colonial rule and redistribution of territorial lines drawn without knowledge/care of preexisting ancient cultural borders.

The likely motivation for Palestinians to have “elected” Hamas as it’s leadership, is that they don’t want to be assimilated into western culture.
They won’t just leave, because it’s their home… And where would they go anyways?

Destroying Gaza (and killing lots of civilians,) to get rid of a small guerrilla army, is illogical. Especially if Israel has any concerns about the future of Gaza after they magically wipe Hamas from the Earth forever…

The problem, is that both sides have dehumanized each other.
The majority of the rest of the world, still sees both sides as humans and if not at least don’t want to see regional/global war.

Israel took their eyes off if their opponent. As a result, they endured a horrific terror attack.
But. They struck back at their “enemies.” They hurt them VERY badly. I wish they could just see that, and move on. They have a terrorism problem. That’s practically a natural disaster problem in the ME. Just like hurricanes on the (US) coasts, or tornadoes in the (US) plains, it’s a unpredictable and inevitable phenomenon.

Another thing. As much as I despise religions, aren’t the frameworks of these religions supposedly peaceful and loving? That’s what both claim… What would their respective deities think of this constant bloodshed?..
If forgiveness, and coexistence are such focal points, where are these important factors now?..

Caravanfan's avatar

@MrGrimm888 From Wikipedia on the Hamas Charter

The 1988 Charter claimed that the Jews deserved God’s/Allah’s enmity and wrath because they received the Scriptures but violated its sacred texts, disbelieved the signs of Allah, and slew their own prophets.[36] It quotes a saying of Muhammad from a hadith:

The Day of Judgment will not come until Muslims fight the Jews, when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say, ‘O Muslim, O servant of God, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him.’ Only the Gharkad tree would not do that, because it is one of the trees of the Jews.

— Related by al-Bukhari and Muslim.[1]

hat's avatar

To argue with people who advocate genocide is useless and immoral.

In case you are watching CNN, Fox, MSNBC, NY Times, WaPo, etc – you are faced with an onslaught of propaganda while the rest of the world are watching Israel – with full support of Biden and the US – carpet bomb children. ~6000+ people (est 2000+ children) have been murdered so far, and most of you still haven’t bothered to do anything to educate yourselves.

Blackwater_Park's avatar

@hat CNN, FOX, Reuters, and all the US media outlets show non-stop footage of all this. Sure there is no shortage of propaganda. You can’t hide from it. You act like you have some special knowledge that the rest of us don’t have. What propaganda are you watching? You also act like we are all A-ok with the way Israel is going about this when most of us have repeatedly said otherwise. I think you just want to believe you’re some voice of reason standing up against injustice, but you’re just being self-righteous.

JLeslie's avatar

@MrGrimm888 Don’t want western influence or democracies? Are you trying to say Israel is trying to spread democracy or force some sort of political conversion on the ME countries?

Do you mean America is trying to do that in the ME? I don’t see that either. The world does (or used to) look to the US as a beacon of democracy.

Other types of governments can be ok as long as the people are treated well. Theocracies are almost always horrible situations, because you can pretty much guarantee women get treated like crap, which is actually horrible for men too if they have any reasonable awareness. It’s because those leaders use and interpret the religion to suit their own sick needs.

Of course most Muslims are peaceful wonderful people, and their religious belief is part of that. It’s just like Christians, most of those Jan 6 people I bet were Christians and their faith is partly why they stormed the capitol. Then you have Christians who are pure goodness, accepting, open, peaceful, and rational. Jews also have extremists.

I think most of the world wants Israel to take a pause. As much as I have argued that Israel had a right to strike back hard, I don’t want Palestinians to die. I saw the Queen of Jordan yesterday accusing Israel of ethnic cleansing while saying Jordan will not take in people from Gaza. Egypt won’t take them either. I mean it is just outrageous to me that countries aren’t helping to give them a safe place while Israel is bombing so much. I think if they can set up some areas for refugees temporarily it would be better, but I guess that takes time, and also, the countries don’t want the Gazans from what I can tell. Ehud Barak on Fareed Zakaria last Sunday said back when he was PM he tried to give responsibility of Gaza to Egypt and they didn’t want to manage that area. Something like that. Watch it, it was a great interview.

I wonder how much the bombing disrupts the Hamas operations or infrastructure since the tunnels are underground. I also wonder when Israelis go in on foot if having the buildings down is helpful for the military operation.

The Israelis can’t just move on because that attack was IT. It was so barbaric that it was impossible not to try to prevent it from ever happening again.

gorillapaws's avatar

@JLeslie Israel could take in the refugees. They’re the ones dropping the bombs and blockading the ports. If their war really was against Hamas only, they’d allow the civilians into tents in Israel.

It is against international law to force the Palestinian civilian non-combatants to be exiled to the Sinai. Egypt is under no obligation to accept millions of destitute refugees because Israel would rather massacre innocents by the thousands instead of sending in the Mossad to shoot the actual terrorists. For Netanyahu and his terrorist pals, killing civilians isn’t a bug, it’s a feature.

“The Israelis can’t just move on because that attack was IT. It was so barbaric that it was impossible not to try to prevent it from ever happening again.”

How many times worse is Israel’s response already than the initial Hamas terrorist attack? How many dead Palestinian kids does there need to be before you’ll accept the word genocide? Israel just murdered the family of a journalist His wife, his son, his daughter and his grandson. They had fled south following the orders of Israel and then his entire gene pool was intentionally annihilated with a bomb you and I paid for. How is that any less sick than breaking into a kibbutz and massacring families?

JLeslie's avatar

@gorillapaws Israel always hits back much much harder, this is no surprise. If the Mossad could go in and shoot the terrorists without the destruction why didn’t they do that years ago? I assume there is a reason to blow up some of the infrastructure.

I’m sure Hamas loves it, because Hamas doesn’t care that thousands of Palestinians died. Hamas cares about Destroying Israel.

I assume Israel is worried about letting Hamas or Hamas sympathizers into Israel, so they don’t want refugees to come in. I also assume that is at least partly why Egypt and Jordan won’t take refugees, plus another myriad of reasons.

It is just beyond me that peace was not achieved years ago. Voting in Hamas made peace impossible the last 20 years, but before that I used to believe it was possible.

gorillapaws's avatar

@JLeslie ” Israel always hits back much much harder,”

What does that mean? Are you acknowledging that Israel is much worse than Hamas? or are you justifying the massacre of innocents in gross disproportion because they count for less?

If a terrorist shoots a baby, and hides behind a stack of babies, how many of them can you justify killing to get to him before your crime is worse than his?

As far as the elections go, remember that Hamas had a huge humanitarian wing. That was an effective tactic precisely because Israel had been so oppressive over the years, keeping Gaza under its thumb. Furthermore, only a tiny fraction of the current population voted for Hamas because life expectancy is so low and the election was so long ago.

flutherother's avatar

My opinions are formed from news reports but also from general reading especially history and I can find sympathy for both sides in this conflict. What I have no sympathy for are the barbaric tactics used by both sides. It makes you feel shame at being human.

Caravanfan's avatar

This is a good podcast. It’s over a week old but it discusses history.
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/bonus-joshs-thoughts-on-israel-gaza/id1002920114?i=1000631573272

JLeslie's avatar

@Caravanfan What is the name of the podcast? The link isn’t working for me.

@gorillapaws I don’t know how many babies, it is a horrific thought and choice. I don’t want any babies or any person who did not commit the atrocities to die.

Hamas has been using the money sent to Gaza to increase their killing machine. If Israel backs out of settlements and Gaza has an election, does everything get better for Gazans? I bet a percentage of the people of Gaza have no idea what Hamas did and just think Israel likes to kill them. I would assume many of their news sources are slanted like ours. We still have people in the US who think Jan 6 was a casual walk through the Capitol building.

If Israel backs out then how does Israel protect it’s border with Gaza? Israel helps Gaza, but from what I have read, Gaza produces sufficient produce on their farms and Israel only supplies 10% of the water Gaza needs. Not sure the electricity situation. All Gazans will not be able to freely enter Israel, that isn’t possible for obvious reasons.

gorillapaws's avatar

@Caravanfan he does make good points but there are few things I’d push back on. I think most people who use the word “colonialism” are referring to the illegal settlements and not to Israel’s existence. Surely not in the western world.

The biggest difference though is I’m much more cynical with respect to the motivations of Israel’s right wing. He says if Israel had all the power Israel would be doing what they’re doing since they do have all of the power, implying that Israel isn’t currently pursuing ethnic cleansing. I completely disagree though.

I think Israel is pursuing a policy of ethnic cleansing. Israel knows they can’t just round up all Palestinians and dump them in boats or force march them all into the Sinai at gunpoint (And I do believe there are Palestinians who would do this (or worse) to Israelis with glee). As much as the West cheerleads Israel, something THAT extreme might actually get them into trouble. So they’re doing it slowly. The Palestinians are like polar bears on an iceberg that’s getting smaller every year. It’s an ethic cleansing in slow motion. Hundreds of Palestinians are killed every year without a peep from Western media. In fact, between September 29th 2000 and October 6th 2023, Palestinians murdered 143 Israeli children. A sickening fact worthy of the strongest condemnation by any objective human being. Of course Israel managed to slaughter 2434 Palestinian children during that same period—more than the total Israelis of all ages killed on 10/7 that rightfully outraged the world. If we do the math, Palestinian kids are 1/17th the value of an Israeli kid (or Israel is 17 times more violent and bloodthirsty than the fucking terrorists). THE WORLD DOESN’T CARE when these kids or their parents and grandparents die. The Israeli leadership knows they’re winning by playing the long game. The status quo is that every year Israel gets larger and Palestinians have less land.

If anyone raises a stink and calls for BDS as a peaceful means to force Israel to obey international law, they get labeled as antisemites. I also believe that the current Israeli leaders intentionally antagonize Palestinians to provoke a violent response so they can then hit back harder. He made the statement along the lines of “The blockade isn’t because the Israelis like blockading arabs.” I would argue that there’s a blockade because the right wing politicians in Israel knows it will produce terrorists that makes Israelis fearful and who will continue to elect them (in the same way that Hamas provokes attacks and uses human shields to build it’s support). When there’s a terror attack on Israel, it creates support for Israel. I’m not saying Netanyahu expected an attack of THIS magnitude, but I’m sure he knew there’d be a terrorist response when he “held up his map of the new Middle East”:https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F6pWKiiWoAAFahC?format=jpg&name=900×900 to the UN that excluded Palestinians. It’s almost as bad as Hamas’ charter—which we all agree is horrible.

@JLeslie podcast link “Uncomfortable Conversations with Josh Szeps”:https://omny.fm/shows/uncomfortable-conversations-with-josh-szeps/bonus-joshs-thoughts-on-israel-gaza

”Hamas has been using the money sent to Gaza to increase their killing machine.”

This is true. Israel also does this too, right?

”If Israel backs out of settlements and Gaza has an election, does everything get better for Gazans?”

It doesn’t solve anything. You still have kids with limbs blown off, adults who never had an education, and plenty of decades of brainwashing and propaganda pumped into the heads of many Palestinians. A lot of these kids are going to have PTSD for the rest of their lives, so we’re talking dozens of years that this trauma will remain.

Also, bear in mind, Israel withdrawing isn’t “doing a favor” to the Palestinians. It’s more like the guy who broke into your home and lived there for years, holding you at gunpoint finally being shamed into leaving you alone. The guy doesn’t serve a pat on the back for leaving. Israel leaving forever is the FIRST step towards peace, not the last step.

”If Israel backs out then how does Israel protect it’s border with Gaza?”

That’s an excellent question. IMO the answer includes large, strong walls, expansion of the Iron Dome, and a UN-patrolled DMZ. I’d also like to see a large tunnel dug that connects the West Bank with Gaza to create a single nation. The tunnel would be huge, include room for a train, highway, and pipelines. It would be under the authority of the UN to prevent any shenanigans.

JLeslie's avatar

@gorillapaws Why can’t you see that both the Palestinians and the Israelis logically feel basically the same from each of their points of view?

If Israel kills Palestinians in response to being killed, the way to stop the killing is for Palestinians to stop murdering Israelis. Peace and safety a long time ago likely would have brought about the change the people of Gaza want.

Here is Iranian born Mandana Dayani on Morning Joe yesterday. https://www.msnbc.com/morning-joe/watch/-we-are-actually-terrified-i-am-a-voter-co-founder-shares-fears-over-growing-antisemitism-196447301836

Maybe you know the answer to my next Q, because I definitely don’t. Does the West Bank allow Gazans to enter the West Bank without any sort of permission? If the residents of Gaza had the train you propose, they would arrive in the West Bank like when you and I travel a tunnel from NY to NJ. I can’t see a tunnel like that ever being built, but that is not what my question is about, it’s about allowing Palestinians from Gaza into the West Bank in huge numbers with Hamas and Hamas empathizers still so large and active.

Also, if the people of Gaza are much poorer than the Palestinians in the West Bank, I would assume that’s another reason West Bank residents won’t want tens of thousands of Gazans coming in as tourists or to relocate, but I’m just purely guessing.

I know very little about tunnels, but tunnels require access for maintenance, and so I can’t see Israel or any country not thinking there isn’t incredible risk to Israel to build a tunnel, which would actually be multiple tunnels. I think the tunnel from UK to France is actually three tunnels, one is for maintenance. The long train tunnel in Switzerland I believe has side access maintenance tunnels. Israel is trying to blow up tunnels.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@hat Hamas mercilessly attacked Israel in a planned attack with Iran- not vice versa. FAFO.

MrGrimm888's avatar

@Caravanfan I’m afraid that the relevance of the Hamas charter is lost on me…
They’re religious zealots… They would die or kill for their faith. In that regard, they are no different from the Jews or Christians…

I am not a theologian.

However. Islamic countries, and Israel alike often name their weapons after religious characters. This further illustrates that religion is the principle issue to alll parties.

If both Hamas AND Israel believe that they are fighting for and/or under protection of a deity, for the preservation of their culture then neither groups are “terrorists,” OR “infidels.”

If sustainable peace is ever to have a chance, anywhere, religion needs to be shed from humanity. If people want to kill each other over resources, that I can at least understand.

People can label this whatever they want to. It’s a religious war, being fought in a region where people have been killing each other over religious differences throughout recorded history.

Caravanfan's avatar

This is not a religious war. It is a political one.

MrGrimm888's avatar

^So Iran wants Israel to be wiped from the Earth, over political reasons?

JLeslie's avatar

@MrGrimm888 I don’t know of Jews dying for their faith. I don’t know any Jews who talk about some sort of wonderful afterlife. It’s not like Christianity and Islam. Maybe some ultra religious Jews think that way, I literally have no idea, but that is a tiny small percentage.

MrGrimm888's avatar

^If I have given the impression that ALL Jewish people are represented by Israel, I apologize.

To argue that the Israeli/Palestinian relationship is not in it’s current condition as a direct result of religion is an indefensible position…

I can appreciate your explained position, in regards to “being Jewish.” However. I won’t claim to understand it.

What I cannot understand, is an oppressed people (the Jews) oppressing another religious group. I think that’s somehow worse, than if there wasn’t a holocaust/WWII. A victim, making a victim of others…
Oppressed people do things like “terror” attacks…

@JLeslie , do Jewish people have more leeway, when it comes to war crimes?
Do Muslims deserve less empathy, because of their “small percentage?”

JLeslie's avatar

@MrGrimm888 I have empathy for the Palestinian people. Every life matters. Well, except the barbarians that tortured, raped, and slaughtered the people on Oct 7. We are not talking about just killing, they were savages.

I don’t know what you mean by all Jewish people and Israel. Are you still talking about religion? 40% of Jews are secular in Israel and around the world. Christians don’t say things like that. When Christians lose faith they feel like they no longer can identify as Christians. Most Christians anyway.

Jews are not oppressing Muslims. Plus, some Palestinians are Christian, but it’s a small percentage. The Palestinians are a people, just like Jews are a people. We have no choice, the world doesn’t let us not be Jewish just because we don’t practice Judaism. Antisemites only care that my parents were Jewish.

I don’t see why you don’t see that both groups have some valid points and that both groups have lived on those lands forever. Did you see my video about the history of the area?

Are you saying Jews have no right to live there? That Israel isn’t a valid state?

I certainly don’t agree with everything Israel has done over the years, but to not see that Israel has to live with people want to wipe them off the planet so close by, they need to protect themselves. Israel sends money to help Gaza and Hamas uses it to kill people in Israel. That has to stop.

Hamas fires rockets constantly. They never stop attacking Israel. Israelis are victims too. Israel has tried to negotiate peace in the past, the Palestinians won’t. Israel has negotiated peace with other countries in the region.

JLeslie's avatar

@MrGrimm888 Iran wants the entire region to be Muslim. Actually, they probably want the entire world to be Muslim. When they start going after countries that are primarily Christian lets see what the conversation is like. Hamas won’t be warning the attack is coming.

Jews don’t try to convert people. We feel no need to rid the planet of people who have a different religion than us.

gorillapaws's avatar

@JLeslie “Why can’t you see that both the Palestinians and the Israelis logically feel basically the same from each of their points of view?”

Because of the extreme asymmetry of the relationship.

If you’re willing to challenge yourself and see things through the eyes of the people of Gaza I encourage you to watch this documentary from 2019. There’s a particularly gruesome scene around 40:30 that I would encourage people to skip ahead about a minute. Other than that, other caveats: the film obviously has a very strong point of view. It doesn’t show the other side. It’s description of the Nakba omits the slaughtered Israeli civilians. And I certainly don’t agree with everything Abby Martin has done or said, but I think it will provide the pro-Israeli folks some much-needed context to understand the circumstances that Netanyahu has cultivated that have made Gaza a ripe territory for recruiting terrorists. Also I don’t think anyone can watch the scenes of the IDF snipers murdering unarmed civilians while cheering and not feel disgust and realize that extreme barbarity exists in Israel too.

Caravanfan's avatar

@MrGrimm888 I didn’t say all war was political. I said THIS war is political. Iran’s motivation is definitely religious and hostile. But even then, politics is important. Before Iraq was turned in to a US tool, Iraq was Iran’s biggest enemy and foil. Now that Iraq is neutered Iran has become the dominant geopolitical player in that region, and you better believe that they are using religion as a tool to do it.

MrGrimm888's avatar

@JLeslie @Caravanfan , I am not anti-Israel.
I am not pro-Palestinian.
Yes. There are other variables. But religion is where the irreconcilable differences are…

I oppose acts of terrorism, and the Oct 7th attack was just that. However. It’s my opinion that the dynamics are the reason the attack was inevitable and always will be. Regardless of how many people die in this war, there will always be tension in the ME.

@Caravanfan I’m afraid I don’t see a difference in using religion for political gain, versus religion being the problem…

I am not trying to argue.
I just get tired of watching people suffer.
I am hoping for peace, followed by sustainable coexistence.
War, even if things went very well, means more death…

JLeslie's avatar

I usually say Israel and Palestinians are pawns, but now I might switch to the word tool, it is very appropriate in my opinion.

When moderate and conservative US Jews vote for Republicans because of Israel, I always tell them all US presidents will support Israel because of the geo-politics. They don’t have to vote for the pro-life, anti-climate change, school vouchers for religious schools, Republicans.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@JLeslie 7 of 10 US Jews vote Democrat. Christians don’t back Israel for your Republican votes, obviously.
I still don’t think many of you understand our unwavering loyalty and support is not up for debate and will not change.

Caravanfan's avatar

@MrGrimm888 I didn’t see it as an argument, but a discussion. But on your final point we agree. I think the discussion of whether the war is religious based or political based is an interesting one. But I’m just taking the point that you can make a political argument for all war. Even the Crusades were political. You can wave religioius banners all you want, but ultimately, there is a economic/political goal. (I know I said above that I didn’t think all war was political but I am changing my tune here)

Taking a pure science fiction example. On Arrakis, the Fremen were ruled and oppressed by the Harkonnens. When Paul Atriedes’s family was slaughtered Paul retreated into the desert and became Maud D’ib, the religious prophet of the Fremen. The Fremen started a jihad across the galaxy with the guise of a religious war, but it was really geopolitical. Paul was using the Fremen to bring the Atriedes back to power (and ultimately to rule the empire).

JLeslie's avatar

@KNOWITALL I completely understand it. Most Jews do.

JLeslie's avatar

@KNOWITALL I predict Jews in the US will vote for Republicans more than usual in the elections coming up after seeing so much of the left supporting Palestinians to the point of ignoring what Hamas did.

KNOWITALL's avatar

@JLeslie That could be interesting. With Trump still at 43% in Iowa, it’s hard to see a clear path right now.

Blackwater_Park's avatar

@JLeslie That, and people in general tend to get more conservative when they feel threatened.

JLeslie's avatar

@KNOWITALL The only snag for the conservatives is Biden is displaying unwavering support for Israel. I think I said on this thread (might have been another) that all US presidents have and will support Israel for geo-political reasons at minimum. Usually, there is not a war in the face of Americans like this incident is.

Usually, Republicans can push the Israel conversation saying things like Obama is Muslim and anti-Israel (not true) for example. We currently do have at minimum two Democrats in congress seemingly not willing to voice horror at what Hamas did Oct 7, which I would guess is being harped on by Republicans, I don’t know what Fox News is saying.

@Blackwater_Park That’s part of my fear in Israel. My Israeli friends hope this attack will finally get rid of Netanyahu, but I fear it will do the opposite. They are Israeli, so I guess they know best.

JLeslie's avatar

@Caravanfan No way which thing?

Caravanfan's avatar

@JLeslie Jews won’t vote Republican in greater numbers.

gorillapaws's avatar

A really excellent interview about the history and some of the myths surrounding Israel.

JLeslie's avatar

^^Revenge is completely ridiculous to me and not an emotion I feel at all. Coincidentally, an Israeli-American friend of mine just wrote about this on Facebook; that revenge has nothing to do with it. I was baffled why that even came up. I guess she was hearing things like what this man is saying.

Even the man in this video who is saying it is revenge then goes on to explain the Israelis have apprehension and worried about the hostages. I can’t even listen to the entire video, because it starts from a place I so completely disagree with. Maybe he is using the word incorrectly? Makes no sense to me.

I do agree Israelis being frustrated with Netanyahu, and he helped to contribute to some of the tensions that led to Oct 7 and his help to the Palestinians unfortunately helped Hamas. The Barbarism of Hamas is completely on Hamas though. Hamas has to be stopped. Hamas does not want peace. That was a bad choice of the Gazan people.

gorillapaws's avatar

He’s a scholar of Israeli history at the University of Exeter currently in Haifa discussing what he’s seeing around him to one of the top Jewish talk show hosts in the US. The attitude of people he’s seeing in Haifa may be different than what you’re seeing on Facebook from some of your Israeli friends or your personal feelings on the subject.

It is my understanding that it has come out that Netanyahu WANTED Hamas, because he wanted Gaza to become more militant as an excuse to ethnically cleans them into the Sinai. I’m not sure if you’ve heard about it, but there’s been a recently created document from the Israeli government that leaked and proposes this exact thing. It said this was the best option for Israel’s long term security. Netanyahu just compared the Palestinians to “Amalek.” for fucks sake.

“The Barbarism of Hamas is completely on Hamas though.”

No disagreement from me. If you listen to the history though, there was a lot of barbarity coming from the other side. There are accounts of living people who talk about the Nakba that involved some extremely brutal stuff perpetuated against the Palestinians including Israelis and neutral 3rd party accounts. For example I heard the story of Israeli soldiers making bets whether an unborn child was a boy or girl and then extracting the dead fetus from a dead Palestinian woman. I don’t know how true stories like that are, but they’re certainly part of the Palestinian Zeitgeist. That doesn’t excuse any of it. It’s all sick, but it’s much less like good guys vs. bad guys and more like bad guys vs bad guys.

I think when the word “revenge” gets used, it’s referring to comments like the one made by IDF spokesperson R Adm Daniel Hagari who said “the emphasis is on damage and not on accuracy” or these accounts of bombs being dropped on civilian refugees killing dozens or hundreds of mostly women and kids to possibly kill one Hamas leader. That can only be characterized as revenge. Israel would never have bombed that many innocent Israeli women and kids to get to that guy, they would have found a different way (like using special forces in a surgical strike).

@JLeslie “That was a bad choice of the Gazan people.”

I would be VERY carful with this kind of language. If we’re saying the innocent civilians are at all culpable in the crimes of Hamas simply because they were elected before most of the population was even born, then you’re using the logic of terrorism. It’s exactly the argument bin Laden used to justify 9/11 and what Hamas uses to kill innocent Israelis. If we apply this standard to the Palestinian non-combatants then logic dictates that because the Israeli citizens elected Netanyahu, 10/7 is also a justifiable attack. You’re flirting with language and propaganda designed to make the Palestinian civilians as less-than.

JLeslie's avatar

It was a bad choice for the US to put Trump into power. It was a bad choice for the Israelis to put Netanyahu into power.

As far as the US, we know more than half the country thinks Trump is a serious problem.

Israel has had demonstrations against Netanyahu’s policies.

Supposedly, the majority of Gazans support Hamas, but obviously I don’t think all Palestinians do, I know they don’t, but if 60% do that is a very high number.

Gaza would have been much better off if they had agreed to peace many many years ago.

Netanyahu did help antagonize the situation and he helped Hamas build their arsenal in my opinion. That doesn’t change that Hamas wants to wipe Israel off of the map.

Revenge would be wanting to hurt them back. I don’t know anyone saying any such thing.

gorillapaws's avatar

@JLeslie “Gaza would have been much better off if they had agreed to peace many many years ago.”

They talk about this in the interview.

@JLeslie “That doesn’t change that Hamas wants to wipe Israel off of the map.”

I’m seeing a lot of info that says Israel has basically been plotting the same thing for the Palestinians since the beginning. As historical reports become declassified, the real history is starting to emerge and Israel isn’t looking like the peace-loving innocent victim attacked by their neighbors that they portray in the modern mythology of the founding of Israel.

JLeslie's avatar

Well, a friend of mine who grew up in Israel until she was a young teenager talks about her family and community wanting to share with the Palestinians how to make the land fertile in the Palestinian Territories and all of their technologies they wanted to share. You can find Israelis who want to take over the whole area, but they are the minority.

Here is a short video for you and everyone still reading about why fighting Hamas affects the world. https://x.com/danelbennamer/status/1720125190485446913?s=57&t=_6nQ9xOlC5XzEPIG4mwsuQ

One more. This reminded me of my husband’s family. https://x.com/elisha__jacobs/status/1717641530716950551?s=57&t=_6nQ9xOlC5XzEPIG4mwsuQ

Who ever said Israel is totally innocent. Jellies on here who support Israel have agreed Israel has made mistakes. Do you think the Palestinians have made mistakes?

Caravanfan's avatar

Palestinians murder gay people
https://apnews.com/article/middle-east-israel-immigration-west-bank-gay-rights-ce95f6903faf461502cc0800b272b159

Not really relevant to the question but they are extremely hostile to LGBT folks. Just a point of interest showing that nothing is black and white

gorillapaws's avatar

In the first video, I reject his framing that it’s a conflict of “good” and “evil.” As I said above, it’s between “evil” and “evil.” And I think any objective person looking at the body counts of civilians, (especially the children, but other non-combatants too, like women, the disabled, cancer patients who can no longer receive treatment because their hospital is fucked, and thousands of others who have nothing to do with Hamas) would conclude that Israel is the greater evil in this conflict—many times over (again just based on math). And I do believe the death tolls coming out of Gaza, as they’ve always been retroactively proven accurate historically by independent 3rd parties.

He says “Hamas, ISIS, Al-Quaeda, Taliban are all the same” which is patently false on its face. His video is psychotic. He’s using language to dehumanize and distract from the problem: Israel is slaughtering innocents by the thousands and are apparently just getting started. Israel massacring civilians isn’t “helping.” It’s bringing anger against Israel and its allies. I don’t see how anyone can oppose a ceasefire at this point.

Why is Hamas evil?—because they kill innocent people. So how is killing innocent people (many times over) justified? It’s not complicated. It’s simple. People opposing a ceasefire are supporting ethnic cleansing. That’s evil.

Israel isn’t trying to rescue the captives, You don’t carpet bomb the area if you’re trying to rescue the hostages beneath it. I’m not sure if you’ve ever heard of the Hannibal Directive but essentially the IDF will kill its own rather than having them captured. All present actions by the IDF seem more consistent with them not trying to rescue hostages but instead annihilate everyone they can get away with, driving them into the Sinai—like the leaked strategy document said to do.

I’m not sure if you’re familiar with “Amalek” and how Netanyahu’s use of the term was so alarming, but I’ll let you Google that one yourself and understand why people are calling this a genocide.

“Who ever said Israel is totally innocent. Jellies on here who support Israel have agreed Israel has made mistakes. Do you think the Palestinians have made mistakes?”

Of course Palestinians have made mistakes, but they have no power. It’s not remotely close. I’m saying there was a narrative that I heard about the founding of Israel for years that they wanted peace with their neighbors and their neighbors were unhappen and wanted to exterminate the evil Jews who had no choice but to defend themselves and won despite all of the odds being stacked against them. Now I know that the framing of that narrative is largely ahistorical.

JLeslie's avatar

@gorillapaws I support getting aid to Gaza. I am very upset by the loss of life among innocent people. I wish the surrounding countries would take some Gazans in. At least women and Children, like Poland did for Ukraine. Egypt and Jordan are right there, they won’t help save the Palestinian lives. They don’t want to risk Hamas in their countries either I guess. Or, politically care more about themselves than Palestinians dying. They know better than us the situation.

Hamas rockets damaged that one hospital. The medical situation in Gaza was inadequate before this war, so that is a problem that concerns me too.

Do you think the peaceful Palestinians can overcome Hamas without help from the outside?

I support an entire cease fire forever if the Palestinians will make a treaty to stop firing on Israel. Israel needs to get out of the settlements, which I believe they have done previously in some areas and they need to do the rest.

I heard some people in the settlements on the West Bank are attacking Palestinians. Those settlers should be arrested and put in jail. I think that is the “revenge” you were talking about. They are extremists, and most Israelis are not extremists and take serious issue with the aggression of the settlers. Netanyahu aligned with extremists and that’s why Israelis were protesting in the streets against him and some have been leaving the country.

Everyone needs to stop, not just the Israelis.

The Palestinians don’t get “right of return” inside of the UN borders just because they are Palestinians. They need to give up on that if they want peace. They might not event get it with proof of living inside the border previously, I don’t know. If peace actually happens, years down the line Israel might open up right of return more broadly. We have seen that in some countries in Europe for Jewish people.

That’s a lot that needs to happen.

You keep saying Israel is stronger. Ok, so it seems like a good idea not to antagonize Israel, and try to agree to a peaceful solution a long time ago, but Hamas wants all of Israel. They have fanatics working for them who believe in Jihad and believe the afterlife is more important than life on Earth.

syz's avatar

What Hamas did was horrific and cruel and criminal. But it was not surprising.

I will admit that I do not understand the complexities of the history of the area. But I don’t understand why we ignore the human rights abuses and virtual apartheid that Israel has inflicted on the Palestinian people. And we give tacit approval of their treatment by giving Israel $260,000,000,000 of US taxpayer dollars.

Meanwhile, the Biden administration is requesting military aid for Israel AND relief aid for Gaza, so we are in effect spending money to create the situation in which we need to spend money to provide relief.

syz (35938points)“Great Answer” (3points)
Caravanfan's avatar

Any time I read anything that says “What Hamas did was bad, but…” I stop at the “but”.

What Hamas did was horrific, cruel, and criminal. Full stop.

Blackwater_Park's avatar

I would consider this thought experiment.
What would happen if Hamas laid down their arms and never attacked Israel?
What would happen if Israel laid down their arms and did nothing to Hamas?
Would Hamas murder Israeli civilians if they were not in the way or part of the conflict?
Would Israel murder Palestinian civilians if they were not in the way or part of the conflict?

JLeslie's avatar

^^Many people quote Golda Meir. Here are just two:

“If the Arabs put down their weapons today, there would be no more violence. If the Jews put down their weapons today, there would be no more Israel.”

“When peace comes we will perhaps in time be able to forgive the Arabs for killing our sons, but it will be harder for us to forgive them for having forced us to kill their sons. Peace will come when the Arabs will love their children more than they hate us.”

gorillapaws's avatar

“Let’s, for a minute, imagine a world without Hamas. What will this world look like? Let’s give this world a name, and let’s name this world the West Bank. Hamas has absolutely no control in the West Bank… and only through August, 37 Palestinian kids were killed. No music festival, no paragliding, no Hamas.”

-Bassem Youssef

JLeslie's avatar

^^This is why there needs to be a treaty. Both sides behave badly to some extent. Netanyahu is not doing enough, maybe not anything, to control the extremists in the settlements. Of the 37 you quoted I don’t know the situations, maybe some is pure evil on the side of Israeli settlers and some was caused by Palestinian aggression, the point is there shouldn’t be any of it.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/abbas-admits-he-rejected-2008-peace-offer-from-olmert/amp/

mazingerz88's avatar

^^How can you have a treaty with people who will kill you at a later time no matter what you do, simply because of who and what you are?

Even if you leave the place you’re occupying to these people?

Blackwater_Park's avatar

I agree, a treaty is pointless with them.

Caravanfan's avatar

China is fueling the world talking about Israel. They don’t want them talking about China’s treatment of their minorities. Similarly Russia doesn’t want people to talk about the ethnic cleansing of thier populations.

https://www.latimes.com/opinion/story/2023-11-07/china-israel-gaza-hamas-antisemitism-tiktok

And also the left completely seems to ignore the plight of queer peoples in Palestine
https://reason.com/2023/10/27/the-contradictions-of-queers-for-palestine/

JLeslie's avatar

Honestly, when I watch a lot of videos of people in the street it makes me wish even more that Israel was created in another place. Although, I also get the feeling most Palestinians feel they have to answer a certain way because of fear or peer pressure.

A lot of Palestinians seem to feel Jews, Christians, and Muslims lived peacefully in the Palestine before Israel. That is false! Maybe there were times that were more peaceful than others, maybe some towns and villages were peaceful, but as I have mentioned before, the antisemitism in the region in the 1930’s was fierce to the point of some coordination with Hitler.

There is a journalists who does lots of videos asking lots of Israelis and Palestinians their POV and feelings. Here is just a few, but you can search more of his videos if you are interested.

How much do Palestinians hate Israelis https://youtu.be/rpOsxeF6WoU?si=UgaeQDiQx4Dl9oMp

How much do Israelis hate Palestinians https://youtu.be/r5168ysQ2rU?si=faw4YtMhWCmMgX5M

Why do Gazans shoot rockets from civilian areas. https://youtu.be/g8Z0I6q8JbI?si=5K21Vij-3nlcj0k5

Palestinians will you share the land with the Jews https://youtu.be/Ry6kpYFHnxs?si=8NESMP1Gv9bhTgID

Do you live under occupation. https://youtu.be/4WN4z8rWi5U?si=8LRRsXj3ilrBMpB1

mazingerz88's avatar

If Muslims in most if not all middle east countries,
tell Israel they will never support other Muslims who wish to see Israel destroyed, that these deadly anti-Semites are on their own and they might even help Israel stop them…if for 50 years or so this resulted in zero terrorist attacks in Israel, then Israel should imo start considering leaving from the land that they’re supposedly occupying.

Seems to me Israel doesn’t have enough partners for peace that can be trusted and relied on in giving Israel a chance to exist in perpetuity…in peace.

Seems to me if Israel takes the high moral ground by giving up those territories that some people want them to give up…that will not change anything, there will always be killer anti-Semites on an extinction level out there.

flutherother's avatar

If by the question you mean “do you support Palestinian barbarism or do you support Israeli barbarism?” I am not going to answer. Maybe I don’t like barbarism of any kind. Is that not an option?

Otherwise, Palestinians and Israelis are equally human and I support them both.

Blackwater_Park's avatar

I hate to be the guy that points out that the “I support both” argument is a bit of a cop out.

flutherother's avatar

@Blackwater_Park It’s a difficult and an unpopular position to maintain I grant you but I’m giving it a try if for no other reason than to preserve my humanity.

gorillapaws's avatar

@Caravanfan Russia is thrilled that the world is focused on Israel and Hamas. Anything to distract from Ukraine.

Blackwater_Park's avatar

@flutherother I’m with you, I have extended family from Palestine and have had many Jewish friends over the years. I keep going back to what Hamas has done, how barbaric it was and I get a sense of why Israel won’t stop for anything because of it. I don’t necessarily agree with how heavy-handed their response is, but I understand. If given the opportunity, Hamas would slaughter every Jewish man, woman, and child. I don’t doubt Israel will erase them in the immediate future but at the expense of much collateral damage to innocent Palestinians. Consequently, many of them will grow up and likely form something Hamas-like and perpetuate the hate cycle. It’s hard not to see that.

mazingerz88's avatar

^^There is no doubt in my mind children getting killed these days in Gaza will be avenged, both by Palestinians and non-Palestinians who are anti-Semites and those who weren’t before but now have turned into anti-Semites.

But I also feel most Israelis already know this and have maybe accepted the fact.

JLeslie's avatar

Some videos by that guy I mentioned in my last post show Palestinians saying they cannot answer because they are afraid of repercussions. Who knows how most Palestinians really feel. I don’t know if any of the ones I posted had that in there, I watched a bunch of videos.

As a female American I think the Palestinians would be better off in one state under Israeli rule rather than Muslim rule, even if they have some problems with equality. However, fundamentally, I feel if they want their own state then give it to them, which is why I have always supported two states. I understand why the Palestinians want their own state. They also have no one else who wants them similar to the Jewish people. They usually simply say it is their land, but I would assume they also feel they can’t easily go other places and resettle.

The situation is untenable. I cannot understand how they live that way. any of them, but I have never been to Israel, and I really think anyone who has never been there really cannot know what it is like, because just looking at media and reading opinions is not going to be the same as living it.

America and allies bombed the crap put of Japan and Europe in WWII and lots of casualties, and then we occupied Japan and Germany after they surrendered, and both Japan and Germany are friends with us now and prosperous. In the Middle East we don’t have as good of a track record. Maybe massive destruction will push a treaty.

JLeslie's avatar

Russia is also happy Americans are divided on yet another issue.

gorillapaws's avatar

“If the Arabs put down their weapons today, there would be no more violence. If the Jews put down their weapons today, there would be no more Israel.”

I wonder what Golda would have made of this?

JLeslie's avatar

@gorillapaws I watched a few minutes. I completely agree with you that the settlers are wrong.

Now, it is very likely there will be other Arab states involved in a peace treaty maybe that will help Israel and the Palestinians stick to an agreement.

The problem is Netanyahu. He loosened the restrictions on settlers that had been put in by Sharon, I don’t know that whole history.

The leaders are all taking too long while people are being killed. I am for a temporary cease fire or pause at this point with some plan and understanding to still get Hamas.

Too little too late. The other countries needed to care more a long time ago. Abbas knows he and other leaders before him missed good opportunities to make a peace treaty.

I think Middle East leaders know Israel will stick to a treaty if the Palestinians lay down their weapons for good. Israel has done it with other countries.

gorillapaws's avatar

@JLeslie You should watch the whole thing, because it shows way more than just that one family. It gives you a sense of what life is like in the West Bank, it’s not just the settlers, but the state’s systemic oppression that’s encourages racism against Arabs and fosters an environment ripe for producing terrorists. And to be clear, this is clearly a one-sided video with a point-of-view.

Respectfully, I think you’re wrong about the desire for peace. I think the vast majority of Israelis want the entirety of “Greater Israel” and want to ethnically cleanse the Palestinians from it. Netanyahu is absolutely part of the problem, but there are many in “moderate” parties that also say as much.

And I’m certainly not claiming that all Palestinians are completely blameless in fostering mistrust and hate. There have been acts of terror perpetuated against innocent Israeli civilians for decades.

JLeslie's avatar

I think I can finish here by saying I am an American. I am grateful beyond words that my family was able to migrate to this country and that we have had relative safety in my lifetime, even though there is a gross disproportionate amount of antisemitic hate crimes compared to other religious hate crimes.

I feel tied to Israel in the sense that they deal with antisemitism, which is something that affects me no matter what country it happens in, that I want the Jewish people to survive, and Israel is my safety net, but the United States of America is my country.

I support Israel in their right to be a state, but the dynamics of the problems there are their problems. I want peace, but I want peace in the world, not just there.

People tend to think every Jewish person in the world feels patriotic allegiance to Israel, it isn’t really like that, it is way more complicated.

mazingerz88's avatar

^^Sure seems like your country has a serious problem when you feel another country is your safety net.

Caravanfan's avatar

@mazingerz88 You are absolutely right.

Caravanfan's avatar

Israeli police released testimony from a girl who survived the October 7th massacre: “I saw the Palestinians bending her down, raping her and simply passing her on to the next. She was alive when they raped her. She was on her feet and bleeding from her back. He pulled her hair. He shot her in the head while raping her, didn’t even lift his pants. They cut her breast and played with it.” “They just carried around someone’s head as if showing strength, walked with it like a bag.”

“What Hamas did was bad but…” Oh, no wait.

JLeslie's avatar

@Caravanfan When Oct 7th first happened I saw messages saying don’t pass around images of what Hamas did, and I think also the description was quieted too. You and I probably know plenty of the eye witness accounts of what happened, but I think the greater public maybe doesn’t. Do you think we should be telling these horrific stories more? Baby found in an oven, women being raped as they watched their babies beheaded. Untold tortures mentally and physically. I think we should.

My sister sent me a photo of an elderly man who had been one of the people helping to drive people away from the area where Hamas attacked. He committed suicide not long after Oct 7th. I figure he was tortured in his mind after what he witnessed, he probably couldn’t sleep anymore. The sadness and horror is beyond comprehension. If they are here, they will do it to us.

My husband just told me they arrested Hamas in Brazil. I’m flying tomorrow, and I am more paranoid than ever flying with my married surname. People don’t take it seriously.

MrGrimm888's avatar

Yeah….. I have spent the days since Oct 7th researching the attack. Watching. I read a lot at first.
But. Watching, and hearing it, and trying not to miss a detail. Because, I have been trying to understand exactly what happened…

I feel like I have a very accurate grasp of it now.
I can say, with no pride, that if I was an Israeli citizen right now I would be more than ok with killing every last living thing in Gaza. I would want to be part of it. I would spend the rest of my life hating and spreading hate…
I wouldn’t care if it caused WW3, or if it ended all human life….

Israel should absolutely pause.

If lives don’t matter, money does.

I read that an Israeli official claims that since October 7th, the war has cost Israel $600,000,000 per day…

I suppose it could become a bit cheaper, but how long can Israel keep that up? The official seemed to think that it is already a problem…

I am forced to assume that America is expected to finance this…

Israel should absolutely pause.

Caravanfan's avatar

@MrGrimm888 That’s a bizarre statement about killing every Gazan.

MrGrimm888's avatar

^Is it?

I didn’t say it was the way anyone else should think about it. But can you tell me you believe there are no Israeli people who may be feeling exactly like that?

Clearly there are people who would like to kill every Israeli/Jewish person.

I would add that logic could easily dictate that as long as there are Muslims, there will inevitably be some whose religious beliefs will radicalize them to the point of terrorism.

I was simply trying to explain why Israel should pause. Hate is more powerful than rational thought.

In my opinion, Israel telling the world they are using every precaution to prevent civilian casualties is bizarre. It’s obvious that is not the case.

As of Saturday’s Arab/Islamic regional meetings they are demanding that the war stops immediately.
It was bizarre listening to leaders of like Iran, Turkey, and Syria condemning violence too.
There is your mentioned political variable.
Well. I can now only hypothesize that if Israel had paused, this unification against Israel would not have been so swift. America and the international community were trying to keep this from occurring. I have little doubt that this is precisely what Iran had in mind, by helping orchestrate this.
By reacting the way they did (again, I don’t blame them,) Israel has played into the trap.

Bizarre…

Smashley's avatar

@MrGrimm888 – it’s not bizarre that Israel reacted the way it did. It was the whole point.

Hamas didn’t wake up and say “ok, when we do this thing guys, just do what comes natural, be your authentic selves” The attack was deliberately calculated in its brutality. The point of terrorism is ALWAYS to provoke your enemies into making mistakes based on emotion. Hamas wanted an attack so brutal that Israel would not be able to not overreact. Everyone who gets hit hard always has the same reaction, to overreact. Every leader says the same thing: “we’re gonna overreact so HARD the terrorists won’t even see it coming.” This is exactly what the terrorists wanted, and is exactly why terrorism is an effective political tool.

Israel’s murderous overreaction, and the fact that international support is actually turning to the plight of those living under apartheid, (and the occasional “cutting the grass”) is actually the greatest justification for terrorism as a normal tool of politics that I have ever seen. I don’t want it to be true, but it appears to be so.

JLeslie's avatar

Here is a video asking Israelis if the Israeli army and settlers should go back to Gaza. It’s before the attack on Oct 7th, but still interesting. https://youtu.be/NFrCHhXvOSw?si=h4A-j3Tq_zST1FEv

JLeslie's avatar

@Smashley Why do you say apartheid? Some racism exists, but apartheid? Palestinian Israelis have all the same rights except for some very specific things where they have to jump through more hoops. They can be in the government, option to be in the military, can be lawyers, judges, they have access to education including university education, access to healthcare, they can be citizens, although some choose not to be, just naming some of examples that demonstrate why I would say apartheid is an inaccurate description.

Smashley's avatar

@JLeslie – No it is not. You are speaking about Israel’s second-class citizens, which, though repugnant to me is something of an international norm. I was speaking of those currently under military bombardment by the country that owns their land and their lives, but will not give them political rights. Apartheid was a correct description of the stateless millions under Israeli rule, before October 7, and it’s about the kindest word I can find to describe the situation since.

JLeslie's avatar

@Smashley Gaza is ruled by Hamas. Previous to that the PLO, going back to the 1990’s. In 2005 or 2006 Israel got out of Gaza, even dragged Israeli settlers out of there kicking and screaming. From what I understand Israel does do some things that inhibit trade in the name of security.

The Gazans voted to put Hamas into power.

I don’t understand why people think Israel has to help Gazans, except to say it’s nice to help and theoretically it should reduce the Gazans’ desire to attack Israel, but the leaders in Gaza pocket a lot of the money and build tunnels and they are religious zealots who hate Israel, and are controlling the population. Do you think the residents in Gaza can speak freely like in Israel? Are the women given full rights and autonomy like in Israel?

If Gaza was part of Israel all of those people would be better off like the Palestinians living in Israel now. I do support two states, but realistically, Gaza will still be small and still have international borders, and still have a lot of poverty. unless the culture shifts.

JLeslie's avatar

By the way over 100 countries recognize the State of Palestine.

JLeslie's avatar

@Smashley I thought you might be interested in this video about whether Palestinians feel they live under apartheid in Israel. I realize you were agreeing with me on the apartheid label, so I’m not suggesting the link to argue, just that you might be interested. https://youtu.be/b3Qirao-NK8?si=qUcqTicNDg-xWwwa

MrGrimm888's avatar

@Smashley We’re not so different, you and I.

Answer this question

Login

or

Join

to answer.

Mobile | Desktop


Send Feedback   

`